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+--- Thread: PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France (/Thread-PLane-carrying-German-passenger-crashes-in-France)
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - Peter Lemkin - 01-04-2015
R.K. Locke Wrote:David Guyatt Wrote:Lauren Johnson Wrote:Hmmmm.
Quote:Spokesman for the investigative team of Germanwings Airbus crash stated that information about written evidence being found during searches, published by British tabloids, is not true.
BERLIN (Sputnik) German police rejected media claims on Friday that they had found evidence proving that the co-pilot of the crashed Germanwings plane had planned his suicide. "Information about written evidence being found during searches, published today by British tabloids, is not true," a spokesman for the investigative team told reporters.
The spokesman added that the police had gathered evidence in the home of the co-pilot, which will be further investigated, though refrained from providing further details.
The Airbus A320 of Lufthansa's low-cost airline Germanwings crashed in the French Alps on Tuesday. There were 150 people on board the plane, including 6 crew and 144 passengers. There are no survivors. On Thursday, a French prosecutor asserted that according to data from the aircraft's first black box, the captain left the cockpit to visit the toilet, and the co-pilot then locked the captain out.
The co-pilot is said to have showed no signs of panic and is deemed to have been conscious while he was alone in the cockpit. The prosecutor said that the passengers were unaware of the situation on board until the very last minute.
Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr said later on Thursday the company believed the plane crash was deliberate. He added that Germanwings pilots did not undergo regular psychological evaluations and only took a psychological test during training.
It makes you wonder why the British press ran with that story. I also don't think he committed suicide. I seem to remember from an earlier post that his breathing was even throughout, according to the recording from the black box. I really doubt this would be the case if he were contemplating suicide. But if it wasn't suicide or planned then why lock the pilot out? Why slowly loose height and ram straight into the mountainside?
The whole event is truly strange.
A remote hijacking is the only thing that makes sense to me. If the co-pilot pre-planned this then how did he know that the pilot would leave the cockpit at all during the flight? Barcelona to Dusseldorf is only a couple of hours. Would a pilot always leave the cockpit at least one during a flight this short? I don't know, but it seems like a strange thing to rely upon. Plus there is the matter of the even breathing, the lack of a suicide note, the (apparent) lack of any kind of motive for taking 100+ people with him.
Very troubling.
Sorry, but your logic is not necessarily logical. You make the invalid assumption that he was intent on carrying it out on THAT flight. He could well have had this in mind to do whenever the right opportunity came about - even had been waiting for the right moment for weeks. While there is some talk about his suggesting to the pilot that he'd take care of things and it was OK to go to the toilet [before the pilot suggesting same] - this is not fully confirmed and doesn't matter. He might just wait for another flight [he likely had about 6+ per week] until someone finally left him alone, be it the next day or next week or next month. (there are also ways a copilot can crash a plane - though not as easy nor surefire - when the pilot is right next to him.) He may have only wanted to do so when alone and was willing to wait. It may well turn out differently than the now semi-official version, but I see nothing illogical with the version now in play - seemingly pushed forward by pressure from airlines to calm the public fears about flying and pilots. As for motive, if true, the underlying depression + high need to achieve being thwarted by loosing his vision could = this odd way to end things and harm others (or not care about the others). Again, too early to tell, but I don't think the version offered is way out of the ballpark of possibility either - just not proven; more assumed from what evidence we've been told [which may or may not be all the evidence we need]. There will be more evidence for sure - one can always doubt whether it is trustworthy, as you are - and there are times to do that with some plane crashes, surely. I can name other flights I'm highly skeptical of the official conclusions for. The official conclusions on this one are NOT YET in, despite the press and prosecutor making everyone think so. I'm pretty agnostic on this one. But, sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. I'm not going to argue the standard storyline - but to me it is as logical as remote take over of the craft - and seems to have much more evidence for it than remote take-over AT THIS POINT. It was supposedly both heard and visually seen the pilot knocking, then pounding and shouting; then finally cursing and using a fire axe or crowbar to force his way back in. The breathing misses the point - even if what we are led to believe about it is so. If we are being lied to, then yes, a radically different scenario would make a better fit. I don't feel we've heard all the evidence yet - in fact we have heard mostly 'leaks', not evidence. They don't lie about EVERY crash. Yes, they certainly seem to about some! You can read all kinds of back and forth here - all almost 150 forum pages of it: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france-141.html
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - R.K. Locke - 01-04-2015
Peter Lemkin Wrote:R.K. Locke Wrote:David Guyatt Wrote:Lauren Johnson Wrote:Hmmmm.
It makes you wonder why the British press ran with that story. I also don't think he committed suicide. I seem to remember from an earlier post that his breathing was even throughout, according to the recording from the black box. I really doubt this would be the case if he were contemplating suicide. But if it wasn't suicide or planned then why lock the pilot out? Why slowly loose height and ram straight into the mountainside?
The whole event is truly strange.
A remote hijacking is the only thing that makes sense to me. If the co-pilot pre-planned this then how did he know that the pilot would leave the cockpit at all during the flight? Barcelona to Dusseldorf is only a couple of hours. Would a pilot always leave the cockpit at least one during a flight this short? I don't know, but it seems like a strange thing to rely upon. Plus there is the matter of the even breathing, the lack of a suicide note, the (apparent) lack of any kind of motive for taking 100+ people with him.
Very troubling.
Sorry, but your logic is not necessarily logical. You make the invalid assumption that he was intent on carrying it out on THAT flight. He could well have had this in mind to do whenever the right opportunity came about - even had been waiting for the right moment for weeks. While there is some talk about his suggesting to the pilot that he'd take care of things and it was OK to go to the toilet [before the pilot suggesting same] - this is not fully confirmed and doesn't matter. He might just wait for another flight [he likely had about 6+ per week] until someone finally left him alone, be it the next day or next week or next month. (there are also ways a copilot can crash a plane - though not as easy nor surefire - when the pilot is right next to him.) He may have only wanted to do so when alone and was willing to wait. It may well turn out differently than the now semi-official version, but I see nothing illogical with the version now in play - seemingly pushed forward by pressure from airlines to calm the public fears about flying and pilots. As for motive, if true, the underlying depression + high need to achieve being thwarted by loosing his vision could = this odd way to end things and harm others (or not care about the others). Again, too early to tell, but I don't think the version offered is way out of the ballpark of possibility either - just not proven; more assumed from what evidence we've been told [which may or may not be all the evidence we need]. There will be more evidence for sure - one can always doubt whether it is trustworthy, as you are - and there are times to do that with some plane crashes, surely. I can name other flights I'm highly skeptical of the official conclusions for. The official conclusions on this one are NOT YET in, despite the press and prosecutor making everyone think so. I'm pretty agnostic on this one. But, sometimes a cigar is only a cigar. I'm not going to argue the standard storyline - but to me it is as logical as remote take over of the craft - and seems to have much more evidence for it than remote take-over AT THIS POINT. It was supposedly both heard and visually seen the pilot knocking, then pounding and shouting; then finally cursing and using a fire axe or crowbar to force his way back in. The breathing misses the point - even if what we are led to believe about it is so. If we are being lied to, then yes, a radically different scenario would make a better fit. I don't feel we've heard all the evidence yet. They don't lie about EVERY crash. Yes, they seem to about some. You can read all kinds of back and forth here - all almost 150 forum pages of it: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france-141.html
So he is depressed to the point of being suicidal and crazed enough to want to take 100+ people with him, but he is also calm and rational enough to (potentially) wait days or weeks to commit the act.
The picture painted is of someone in a relaxed, outwardly composed frame of mind committing a large scale murder-suicide without any compelling reason to do so. He also remained silent while he did this and did not - as far as I'm aware - leave a suicide note.
That being said, I am still open-minded about the possibilities and I think it's unlikely that we will ever be able to come to any firm conclusions based on the evidence that is made public. As usual, we will all be left guessing. In the meantime, in light of what we have seen previously I think it is perfectly reasonable to continue questioning the official narrative.
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - R.K. Locke - 01-04-2015
Here are some of the other similar incidents for the purposes of context. It is very much worth reading them, I think:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameel_Al-Batouti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EgyptAir_Flight_990
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Northern_Airlines_Flight_6136
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185#Investigation_and_final_report
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_Airlines_Flight_11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAM_Mozambique_Airlines_Flight_470
There are others but most of them are passengers rather than pilots or co-pilots.
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - Peter Lemkin - 01-04-2015
A real investigation [and I'm not saying this one is such] takes the facts - no matter how 'odd' they may be and starts there and works back. The last thing to assign would be motive. People are strange and do the strangest things, at times, that defy 'common' 'logic'. Defying common logic can also, granted, be a clue that something 'black' is up...but not without some reason to believe that. I've heard exactly opposite leaked evidentiary 'facts' in this case. Some reports were only of 'breathing' [i.e. he was alive]; others have said 'normal breathing'. The reports of videos seen by two media outlets have now been refuted by the French Police Officials. Its up for grabs now what the facts are short of a nearly 500mph crash directly into a mountain. Even the French fighter jets that were near the plane have not told what they saw [which is actually the correct procedure]. Usually, information is limited to almost non-existent until well into the investigation and the preliminary report is given. Not in this case. I don't know if that makes it suspicious or just pressured by business considerations. It is easier to blame the dead pilot than to blame the airline or the industry [for the airlines]. I do believe remote take over of aircraft technology exists...I'm not sure if for Airbus. I thought mostly for American built craft, but may be wrong here. Airbus has special and quite different electronics and autopilot than American craft do. Feel free to imagine what ever scenario you like....but to me, unlike some other recent downed or missing aircraft, this one doesn't yet [to me] have enough information to make a 'call'. That said, the officially leaked version is consistent with the officially leaked evidence [including possible motive and actions] - now to see if that holds up. We will NEVER know what was going on in his mind - unless we miraculously find he was unconscious at the time. That will always be greatly in the realm of speculation and will differ in other's minds according to how they perceive humans, generally, as capable of under different stress and scenarios. Some of the pieces of the plane and passenger parts were propelled up to one meter into the loose rock surface. It will be a year or more before most are found. It was a horror for the families - as no pieces of their loved ones very large will be returned, and many will not be complete even in many pieces. They only have found small parts of less than half of the passengers so far...(i.e. on the surface). Grizzly! If one looks at the photos of the rescue workers - they have zip lock bags - gallon size and smaller. I believe only a few pieces of the plane found were larger than one meter across. All was pulverized.
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - Peter Lemkin - 02-04-2015
Co-pilot Lubitz 'researched suicide' Not saying this is so...just reporting the latest leaks.
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - R.K. Locke - 02-04-2015
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/girlfriend-killer-pilot-andreas-lubitz-5443768
Girlfriend of killer pilot Andreas Lubitz fears backlash when she returns home
The girlfriend of killer pilot Andreas Lubitz fears a public backlash if she goes back to her home town.
Teacher Kathrin Goldbach, 26, taught in the small German town of Montabaur where Lubitz grew up until 2013.
It emerged Lubitz, 27, took her on holiday and bought them both Audi cars days before co-piloting the Airbus 320 which crashed into the French Alps killing all 150 on board. Kathrin's rescue worker brother, also called Andreas, still lives in Montabaur.
A friend said: "His sister has nothing to do with this but the hatred of the world is coming down on her. It's very hard for the family to return."
Kathrin knew the Germanwings pilot was being treated for *depression but she thought he would recover.
An inquiry source said: "He showed no signs of suicidal thoughts just before the accident."
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/germanwings-crash-andreas-lubitz-been-5435823
Germanwings crash: Andreas Lubitz has been 'framed' claim pals, as new pictures show killer pilot as smiling schoolboy
Hometown supporters of Andreas Lubitz claim the killer pilot has been 'framed' over the French Alps plane crash which left 150 people dead.
Investigators believe Lubitz, co-pilot on the Germanwings Airbus 320, set the plane on a collision course with the mountain where it crashed, killing everyone on board.
But ex-schoolfriends have set up a Facebook campaign - which now has 4,000 likes - decrying the 'witch hunt' against him.
It comes as new pictures emerged of Lubitz growing up in Montabaur, the rural backwater of 12,500 inhabitants in Rheinland, south west Germany.
Taken from his Mon Tabor high school year books, the previously unseen photos show a tubby, happy 12-year-old in 1999.
In his final year, aged 18, he is dressed as moose with giant antlers, larking around for the camera.
His supporters claim the official account of his killing all 149 passengers and crew on board is an 'cover-up'.
Entitled 'Andreas Lubitz A320 - we are against the witch hunt', the page includes a series of bizarre theories about the disaster.
One supporter, who claims to be a former classmate, said: 'I believe in the innocence of Andi!'
Others point out the second black box data recorder had not yet been recovered from the crash site, which they claim was also proof of a cover-up.
Many in Lubitz' hometown are still struggling to believe the official version of events.
Wolfgang Michales, 50, a designer, who lives close to the family home he shared with dad Gunter, mum Urusula and younger brother, said: "I feel for his parents.
"First they learn they have lost their son, then this. How could the authorities be so sure?"
And the pilot's devastated girlfriend has told police she knew he was being treated for mental illness - but thought he would work it out.
Maths teacher Kathrin Goldbach, 26, has been interviewed by investigators trying to understand why Lubitz would have committed mass murder.
She spoke for the first time of his behaviour before the tragedy, but admitted she "did not know the full extent of the problems".
And she believed they 'were working through the issues together' as she knew two doctors were treating him.
"They were optimistic they could solve the problems," said the insider.
"She was just as shocked as everyone by what he did."
Kathrin, who is believed to be pregnant, is now at a secret location, supported by Dusseldorf police.
Meanwhile, French President Francois Hollande has reassured families that the 150 victims will be identified by the end of the week.
Rescuers had warned identifying all those on board could take several months.
But Mr Hollande said: "The French interior minister confirmed that by the end of the week at the latest it will be possible to identify all of the victims thanks to DNA samples."
None of the victims were found due to the 430mph impact, but different strands of DNA have been identified at the site.
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - Peter Lemkin - 03-04-2015
To me, the most odd/suspicious thing[s] are the amazingly rapid dissemination of information. Take for example the alleged finding of the amazingly mangled second blackbox [FDR]
Found and the data read within a few hours and sent to the media! This is not how an investigation is supposed to happen and I am incredulous that that can even be done so quickly were it protocol.
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - Magda Hassan - 04-04-2015
R.K. Locke Wrote:Kathrin, who is believed to be pregnant, is now at a secret location, supported by Dusseldorf police.
:
hock:: ::face.palm::
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - Magda Hassan - 04-04-2015
What about the camera phone footage which has some how found its way into media hands? That cannot be protocol or ethical. If real.
PLane carrying German passenger crashes in France - R.K. Locke - 06-05-2015
The Germanwings 9525 "Crash Rehearsal" Story is Total Bullshit
Posted on May 6, 2015 by willyloman
by Scott Creighton
UPDATE: The Huffington Post is now running with the stupid story as is CNN, Fox News, CBS and many others.
Still trying to prop-up their pathetic official story about how Germanwings flight 9525 crashed into the French Alps 6 weeks ago, authorities have pre-released a report to the German newspaper Bild which supposedly details how the co-pilot Andreas Lubitz "practiced" resetting the auto-pilot setting to 100 feet altitude several times on a previous flight he worked on that same day.
That is an absolutely ridiculous notion which isn't even supported by the evidence they themselves present. As stupid as it is, the story is already being repeated at news sites like Sputnik International without the first hint of questioning the moronic narrative nor the clearly contradictory evidence presented.
The German newspaper Bild reported that the Germanwings co-pilot, suspected of deliberately crashing a plane in the French Alps in March, killing all 150 people on board, practiced a descent on a previous flight on the same day.
The newspaper referred to an interim report, due to be published by France's BEA crash investigation agency later on Wednesday. Sputnik International
First of all, a pilot with the flight hours that Lubitz had does not need to practice" setting the auto-pilot target altitude to 100 ft above sea level. He would just do it.
According to this story he had to "practice" setting that altitude over and over again, multiple times, and one time they claim he left it at that setting for more than 100 seconds (#2 on graph below)
According to the story, as he was told to reset the altitude of that flight, Lubitz did so by seemingly always setting the new altitude at 100 feet and then readjusting it back up. This happened several times according to Bild and the BEA crash investigation.
Seems to me that the auto-pilot system itself was having problems, not the co-pilot. Seems to me he was keeping from resetting itself to 100 feet of altitude when he kept changing it to the new altitude that the flight tower was ordering him to set.
Here's the "proof" that Bild offers. It's a graphic showing the altitude of the flight during the time the investigation says Lubitz was "practicing"
At first glance the readers are supposed to look at that descent and proclaim "OH MY GOD! he was practicing! Look at that descent"
But if you care to read the actual article which I had Google translate for me, you find it isn't a drastic descent like the one flight 9525 underwent at 3,400 feet per minute and, in fact, ALL OF THE DESCENT CHANGES CAME STRAIGHT FROM THE CONTROL TOWER PRECISELY WHEN THEY APPEAR ON THE GRAPH
To 08:20: 29 clock the flight was handed over to the en-route control center Bordeaux. The crew was asked to go down to the flight level 350 (35 000 feet). The statement was read by the co-pilot.
To 08:20: 32 clock was the aircraft to descend to flight level 350 above, which had been adjusted for a few seconds before.
…
To 08:21 10 clock the Bordeaux Control the crew gave the instruction to continue the descent to FL 210 (21,000 feet)
To 08:21 16 clock the adjusted height was 21 000 feet.
The report from Bild does not bother to explain why the crew eventually leveled out at 25,000 feet. That must have been an order given to them by the control tower which appears to have been deliberately left out of the Bild article.
Here is a graph of the descent of flight 9525 later that same day. You will notice the descent of that plane is very different than that of the one he flew earlier in the day.
You will notice that each time he was asked to reset the altitude on the auto-pilot system, it seems the value was set, either by him or by the auto-pilot system itself, at 100 feet.
You will also notice it does appear that the rate of descent changed when the altitude was supposedly set at 100 feet.
Now you might not notice on the graph above those times it was only set at that altitude for 3 seconds, but look at the rate of descent when it was supposedly changed for 100 seconds.
You would expect the aircraft to have dived at that point like flight 9525 did at a rate of 3,400 feet per minute but it didn't. The rate of descent always remains constant.
In fact, if you look at it, during that time, those 100 seconds, it actually seems to have leveled off for a while.
I'm very curious where they come up with this "set at 100 feet" information. Will they release the raw data on that?
Anyway, this new narrative which is intended to provide the final nail in the guilt coffin of Andreas Lubitz is completely ridiculous on it's face and as you can see, their own evidence doesn't seem to support their conclusion that he was "practicing" his death dive.
But then again, much of their story is bullshit.