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+--- Thread: The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 (/thread-14411.html)
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Michael Cross - 02-02-2016
Steve Thompson Wrote:David,
Not sure if you've seen this video, but MK Davis points out - what he believes to be - a shot hitting the street in the Nix film near the FBI's 3rd shot location on Elm.
He discusses it just after the 5 minute mark.
I'd be curious to hear your take...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLo0_D9h2Kk
Looking at that video I have two thoughts:
1. There's simply not sufficient resolution to claim that the anomaly in the film is a puff of concrete from a bullet strike. Similar distortions are occurring in the grass at the same time. It could be what he claims, but IMO it's impossible to know with the version of Nix he's using.
2. The people he claims are reacting to a bullet strike are more likely to be reacting to having just seen JFK's head blown apart right in front of them.
edit to add:
Mr. Davis does a nice job of highlighting the reactions of the car's occupants to extreme braking and the simultaneous opposite reaction as JFK is hit. What's most striking to me is that as the occupants react to the braking the car is not slowing AT ALL in relation to the background. Clear evidence of alteration IMO.
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - David Josephs - 02-02-2016
Chris Davidson Wrote:Chris Davidson Wrote:David,
I think we'll get a better idea of what you summarized in regards to horizontal/vertical points (measuring sticks) with a few examples:
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any difference between the position of President Kennedy's stand-in and the position of President Kennedy on the day of the assassination by virtue of any difference in the automobiles in which each rode?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because of the difference in the automobiles there was a variation of 10 inches, a vertical distance of 10 inches that had to be considered. The stand-in for President Kennedy was sitting 10 inches higher and. the stand-in for Governor Connally was sitting 10 inches higher than the President and Governor Connally were sitting and we took this into account in our calculations.
Elm St slope = 3.13degrees = 1ft vertical per 18.3ft horizontal
10"/12" =.833ft
.833ft x 18.3 = 15.2499ft
15.249ft = DISTANCE FROM JFK WITHIN LIMO TO LIMO FRONT BUMPER
chris
Mr. KELLEY. The officials at Hess Eisenhardt, who have the original plans of the President's car, conducted a test to ascertain how high from the ground a person 72 1/2 inches would be seated in this car before its modification. And132
it was ascertained that the person would be 52.78 inches from the ground--that is, taking into consideration the flexion of the tires, the flexion of the cushions that were on the car at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say 52.78 inches, which individual would that be?
Mr. KELLEY. That would be the President.
Mr. SPECTER. And what part of his body?
Mr. KELLEY. The top of the head would be 52.78 inches from the ground.
JFK's head height (refer to previous posting) at head shot = 3.27ft above ground = 39.24 inches
JFK's head height above ground = 52.78 inches.
Vertical range = 13.54 inches.
chris
Please correct me if I'm wrong Chris as I hope I understand you....
So the limo would need to be farther UP Elm since a 52.78" high shot at Z313 would sail over JFK
yet about 20-22 feet further back UP Elm (30 feet to the back of the limo instead of JFK's head)
we'd expect the limo to be 13 vertical inches higher than at Z313.
The 13.54 inches enables them to place the limo in any position and the numbers still would not add up...
?? :
:
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 02-02-2016
I think as a general concept you have it.
Don't worry too much about applying it to a specific location yet. More to come.
It's important to keep/execute the conversions (vertical/horizontal) as true to form as possible.
I believe this was done to minimize any compounding affects.
For instance:
13.54 inches (vertical) =1.128ft x 18.3 = 20.65ft (horizontal)
chris
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 02-02-2016
Chris Davidson Wrote:David,
I think we'll get a better idea of what you summarized in regards to horizontal/vertical points (measuring sticks) with a few examples:
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any difference between the position of President Kennedy's stand-in and the position of President Kennedy on the day of the assassination by virtue of any difference in the automobiles in which each rode?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because of the difference in the automobiles there was a variation of 10 inches, a vertical distance of 10 inches that had to be considered. The stand-in for President Kennedy was sitting 10 inches higher and. the stand-in for Governor Connally was sitting 10 inches higher than the President and Governor Connally were sitting and we took this into account in our calculations.
Elm St slope = 3.13degrees = 1ft vertical per 18.3ft horizontal
10"/12" =.833ft
.833ft x 18.3 = 15.2499ft
15.249ft = DISTANCE FROM JFK WITHIN LIMO TO LIMO FRONT BUMPER
chris
The 13.54inch vertical span in terms of horizontal make-up.
10inches is from above with a remainder of 3.54 inches.
3.54 inches/12inches(1ft.) =.295ft
.295ft x 18.3 = 5.4ft(horizontal)
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because of the difference in the automobiles there was a variation of 10 inches, a vertical distance of 10 inches that had to be considered. The stand-in for President Kennedy was sitting 10 inches higher and. the stand-in for Governor Connally was sitting 10 inches higher than the President and Governor Connally were sitting and we took this into account in our calculations.
Mr. SPECTER. Was any allowance then made in the photographing of the first point or rather last point at which the spot was visible on the back of the coat of President Kennedy's stand-in before passing under the oak tree?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; there was. After establishing this position, represented by frame 161, where the chalk mark was about to disappear under the tree, we established a point 10 inches below that as the actual point where President Kennedy would have had a chalk mark on his back or where the wound would have been if the car was 10 inches lower. And we rolled the car then sufficiently forward to reestablish the position that the chalk mark would be in at its last clear shot before going under the tree, based on this 10 inches, and this gave us frame 166 of the Zapruder film.
It's back to CE884 we go.
Warning!!! The distance traveled between Z161-166 is listed as .9ft which equates to 2.24mph.
What would happen if we determined what the true distance traveled and speed should be, at least according to the extant zfilm and survey plat?
chris
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 04-02-2016
The two stationary landmarks (LOS) from Z-pedestal are the light signal post on the Houston St. corner and the parking sign further west down Houston St.
At Z166, JFK within the limo aligns with the Houston St corner light signal post.
The flashing part of the gif shows the ' + " sign designating Station# 3+25.0 and gives you an idea of the distance to JFK within the limo.
JFK's location at extant Z156 = Station# 3+19.3
JFK's location at extant Z166 = Station# 3+30.1
10 frames @ 10.8ft = 1.08ft per frame
1.08ft x 5 frames = 5.4ft horizontal = .295(3.54vertical inches) x 18.3 = 5.4ft horizontal
Extant Z161-Z166 = 5 frames
chris
![[Image: Z156Plotted.gif]](http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Z156Plotted.gif)
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 04-02-2016
Chris Davidson Wrote:I think as a general concept you have it.
Don't worry too much about applying it to a specific location yet. More to come.
It's important to keep/execute the conversions (vertical/horizontal) as true to form as possible.
I believe this was done to minimize any compounding affects.
For instance:
13.54 inches (vertical) =1.128ft x 18.3 = 20.65ft (horizontal)
chris
Tying it back to this:
10"(vertical) =15.249ft (horizontal) + 3.54"(vertical)=5.4ft (horizontal) = 20.649ft horizontal = vertical range/adjustment, whatever reference is preferred.
chris
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 04-02-2016
Chris Davidson Wrote:The two stationary landmarks (LOS) from Z-pedestal are the light signal post on the Houston St. corner and the parking sign further west down Houston St.
At Z166, JFK within the limo aligns with the Houston St corner light signal post.
The flashing part of the gif shows the ' + " sign designating Station# 3+25.0 and gives you an idea of the distance to JFK within the limo.
JFK's location at extant Z156 = Station# 3+19.3
JFK's location at extant Z166 = Station# 3+30.1
10 frames @ 10.8ft = 1.08ft per frame
1.08ft x 5 frames = 5.4ft horizontal = .295(3.54vertical inches) x 18.3 = 5.4ft horizontal
Extant Z161-Z166 = 5 frames
chris
A speed check for extant Z156-Z166 = 10 frames@10.8ft traveled
18.3fps/10frames = 1.83 x 10.8ft = 19.764ft per sec /1.47(1mph) = 13.44mph
I wonder if 10 frames = .55sec would be considered an instantaneous or average speed?
chris
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Steve Thompson - 04-02-2016
Michael Cross Wrote:Mr. Davis does a nice job of highlighting the reactions of the car's occupants to extreme braking and the simultaneous opposite reaction as JFK is hit. What's most striking to me is that as the occupants react to the braking the car is not slowing AT ALL in relation to the background. Clear evidence of alteration IMO.
Yes. Kellerman, Greer, Connolly and Nellie are all thrown violently forward at the same moment - yet JFK and Jackie seem to be in another physical universe. And of course, this is also seen in the Z-film.
It's a head scratcher for sure...
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 04-02-2016
Chris Davidson Wrote:Chris Davidson Wrote:The two stationary landmarks (LOS) from Z-pedestal are the light signal post on the Houston St. corner and the parking sign further west down Houston St.
At Z166, JFK within the limo aligns with the Houston St corner light signal post.
The flashing part of the gif shows the ' + " sign designating Station# 3+25.0 and gives you an idea of the distance to JFK within the limo.
JFK's location at extant Z156 = Station# 3+19.3
JFK's location at extant Z166 = Station# 3+30.1
10 frames @ 10.8ft = 1.08ft per frame
1.08ft x 5 frames = 5.4ft horizontal = .295(3.54vertical inches) x 18.3 = 5.4ft horizontal
Extant Z161-Z166 = 5 frames
chris
A speed check for extant Z156-Z166 = 10 frames@10.8ft traveled
18.3fps/10frames = 1.83 x 10.8ft = 19.764ft per sec /1.47(1mph) = 13.44mph
I wonder if 10 frames = .55sec would be considered an instantaneous or average speed?
chris
The inset excerpt is from a 1978 article by Jim Marrs, interviewing Chester Breneman.
The survey data in orange is from the final WC survey plat of May 1964, CE884 is what is published in the Warren Report.
The difference in speed between the two boxed entries with the rest of the data being the same is (Z161-Z166=2.24mph) (Z168-Z171=3.734mph).
chris
![[Image: CE884%20Compare.jpg]](http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/CE884%20Compare.jpg)
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 04-02-2016
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; because we were able to determine the speed of the camera, and thereby accurately determine the length of time it takes for a specific number of frames to run through the camera at this 18.3 frames per second, and having located these frame positions in the street, we took the farthest distance point we had in the Zapruder film which was frame 161 through frame 313.
This was found to run elapsed time from the film standpoint which runs at 18.3 frames a second, runs for a total of 8.3 seconds.
This distance is 136.1 feet, and this can be calculated then to 11.2 miles per hour.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that a constant average speed or does that speed reflect any variations in the movement of the car?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is the overall average from 161 to 313. It does not mean that it was traveling constantly at 11.2, because it was more than likely going faster in some areas and slightly slower in some areas. It is only an average speed over the entire run.
A distance of .9ft per frame at 18.3 frames per sec = 16.47ft traveled/1.47(1mph) = 11.2mph.
Total distance traveled for initial entries(z161-166 & z168-171) in previous graphic = .9ft
chris