Vasilios Vazakas Wrote:

Kenneth Kapel Wrote:I feel that among the facilitators, in the JFK assassination, were the American, British, Israeli, Dutch, South African, Soviet, and Gehlen intelligence organizations. The elements in these organizations have no loyality except to perpetual war, greed, and Mammon. These groups have also been facilitators in my other ventures, but they still have their own infighting that sometimes delays their plans for ultimute world control. They are like one big brotherhood that knows no loyality except what benefits their own ends. Mr Obama is one of their stooges. Nominated over Hillary because he was perceived as a " peace candidate",even though among Mr Obamas biggest backers were the Chicago Crown family,who are large shareholders in the military industrial complex giant General Dynamics. Needless to say the Crowns are also uber Zionists. Yet the corporate run media would have you belivieve that Obama - Bibi are at war over the Obama plan for Middle Eastern peace, even though Obamas plan it the same plan as the last 2 American administratations,including the neo - con ladden Bush regime, it all a dog and pony show. I know a few folks who think that the Crowns had invovlement in the JFK murder, many of the same people see the Bush family & Halliburton having roles in the events of November 22, 1963.

There is no way that all these groups that you have mentioned above were involved on the assassination. You only add confusion by saying this. It seems that the World and his wife had JFK killed. I will narrow it down according to my humble opinion.
The eastern establishment in cooperation with their partners in the military industrial complex instigated the murder. Dulles and Angleton manipulated the intelligence structure, LBJ new and helped, the Meyer Lansky syndicate along with their CIA partners from the Far East carried out the assassination.
George Brown sold Brown & Root to Halliburton in 1962. They became powerful after the assassination when LBJ gave them the Vietnam contracts. However we do not have any proof that they were involved in the conspiracy. I think that George DeMohrenschildt worked for them at some point. However both in 1963 and 2001 you had a Texan Vice President well connected to Halliburton that were hugely benefited after both events.

Vasilios Vazakas Wrote:i never said that i believed in the torbitt document, it is classical disinformation.
You do have a connection between Far East CIA, Paul Helliwell, Angleton, Lansky banks in Florida and the Bahamas and drugs in the golden triangle, all connected to Vietnam war, add the oil fields in Southeast Asia that Socony oil and the Rockefellers wanted to explore, the war profiteering and you have a pretty good motive and connection between eastern establishment, military industrial complex Meyer Lansky and Far East CIA.
If one wants to find out motives with respect to the financial part of the equation he only has to read Donald Gibson's books.

Vasilios Vazakas Wrote:we can exchange views and opinions for hours and i don't think we 'll agree to everything but that it is essence of democracy. At least we have a place to start. However, no matter what we all say it is higly unlikely that we 'll ever find out the truth and we'll speculate for years to come since noone from the conspirators will ever step forward and confess to what happened that day.

Vasilios Vazakas Wrote:what do you mean about the bahamas stuff being dodgey. Can you expand on this further?

Seamus Coogan Wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:

Seamus Coogan Wrote:As I've said the Torbitt document did not predict 'Gladio'.

My understanding is that the "Torbitt document" started circulating in samizdat form circa 1970.

Now this is classic. Two of you have now made the misguided call that in dissing the Torbitt documents that I am somehow dissing the Shaw-Permindex-Gkadio link. I have to ask Jan have you read my previous posts? Well no obviously you haven't.

Seamus Coogan Wrote:Let's make this clear. 1970 is at least Two years after it was first published in Italy and Garrison got hold of it in his investigation. It was a year or so after that Paris Flammonde wrote his important piece on the subject. A full year or so the Torbitt document came out. So what does 1970 mean to me Jan?

A big fat nothing.

Seamus Coogan Wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Confirmation of the existence of Gladio and its false flag atrocities committed as part of a Strategy of Tension can probably best be dated to Italian PM Andreotti's speech on October 24, 1990, and Allan Francovich's documentaries first broadcast in 1992.
Mae Brussell identified Gladio here in 1987, without knowing its name, and her "The Nazi Connection to the John F. Kennedy Assassination", which contains both Hits and Misses, is an earlier adumbration of linked material.

Well nope. There had been a lot of stuff going down in Europe since the mid 80's. So what if Brussell doesnt name it? The stuff in Europe was well actually well known if nameless. The Torbitt document or Brussell for that matter didn't predict anything of mass importance, not already known. I also don't like the tone. You don't honestly think I haven't checked up and backed up the dates nor that I know anything about Gladio? Well sorry. I do.

I've simply never used Brussell as a source for any of it.

Seamus Coogan Wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Rather than predicting Gladio, I would rather frame it as Mae Brussell's work identifying much important material which became yet more important and resonant once the philosophy, MO and deep political support of Operation Gladio (and its other names and manifestations) became public record.

Brussell was nothing unique in this regard, well she was in that she added a conspiratorial touch which as you say is 'hit and miss' but once again 'let's get real'. There were numerous other courageous primary sources coming from French, Italian and English journo's (no they weren't slipped information by the Commies as Helms liked to say) whom had been reporting on this stuff right through out the Cold War. Brussell was not a primary source for this. She never ever said she was either.

Now before you say I am dissing Brussell. Let's get this clear. Read carefully. I like Mae Brussell! She did some good work in particularly on 'The Last Words of Lee Harvey Oswald' She also actually thought the Torbitt documents were likely bogus.

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Having said all that, MSM continues to ignore Gladio and Francovich only lasted until 1997 when he suffered a fatal heart attack in Houston airport, Texas...

Seamus Coogan Wrote:Yes they do and Francovichs ballsy work shouldn't be tarred by putting the Torbitt document garbage alongside his stuff. Nor should Brussell's opinions of them nor her work be overlooked or clouded because of it either. She made far more valuable contributions than that. As you clearly no.

As for Crisman, man oh man. Who gives a flying retarded shit? Theres evidence of a whole heap of stuff going down with or without Crismans involvement anyhow. In effect the points you have made Jan are precisely why the Torbitt Documents are so bad they leech off the legitimate work of other people. Furthermore, I suggest anybody concerned about the truth email Kenn Thomas and ask him why he felt the need to libel Jim DiEugenio with regards to Torbitt.

David Guyatt Wrote:Crisman is, indeed, a very interesting character. More background here:

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Fred%20Crisman.ht

Quote:Twenty-five years after Crisman failed to yield much value for Garrison, he remains much of a mystery. But what can be pieced together indicates Crisman was part and parcel of the seamy underworld of the intelligence community that flourished during the 1950s and '60s.

*Garrison's conclusions

In a lengthy handwritten memo to Jonathan Blackmer, an investigator for the House select committee that re-investigated Kennedy's assassination in the late 1970s and had a keen interest in Crisman, Garrison spelled out what he had concluded about Crisman:

" . . . I suggest the only reasonable conclusion is that he was (and probably is, if still around), an operative at a deep cover level in a long-range, clandestine, intelligence mission directly (in terms of our national intelligence paranoia) related to maintaining national security . . . Crisman emerges as an operative at a supervisory level . . . acquired by the apparatus to carry out the menial jobs that are needed to push a current mission forward, a middle man--in the final analysis--between the mechanics who eliminate, and the handy men, who otherwise support a termination mission, on one hand, and the distant, far removed, deeply submerged command level, on the other."

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Seamus - I have been entirely respectful throughout this thread.

Your resort to abuse is, I'm afraid, disapppointing.

Seamus Coogan Wrote:

Jan Klimkowski Wrote:

Seamus Coogan Wrote:As I've said the Torbitt document did not predict 'Gladio'.

My understanding is that the "Torbitt document" started circulating in samizdat form circa 1970.

Now this is classic. Two of you have now made the misguided call that in dissing the Torbitt documents that I am somehow dissing the Shaw-Permindex-Gkadio link. I have to ask Jan have you read my previous posts? Well no obviously you haven't.

Seamus - you're the one who clearly hasn't read this thread with any care or you would not have made your statement above.




And?

My point, as clearly articulated in this thread, is that appearance of the samizdat Torbitt document circa 1970, after Garrison had lost his case against Clay Shaw, attributing high involvement in the JFK assassination to a then (and now) obscure organisation - namely Permindex and its tentacles - is intriguing.

Particularly if it was a deliberate psyop designed to bury the important link to Permindex.





Seamus - I absolutely hate your tone. And I'll quote it straight back at you in my name.

You don't honestly think I haven't checked up and backed up the dates nor that I know anything about Gladio? Well sorry. I do.

Without Italian PM Andreotti's parliamentary confirmation of the existence of Gladio, Franovich's Gladio documentaries would never have been commissioned, made or broadcast. I know because I've seen the internal BBC file and inquest into those films. I say "inquest" because very senior BBC managers were told, through national security channels, in the strongest terms, that the films should not have been commissioned, made or broadcast.

Andreotti's confirmation enabled senior BBC managers to argue (to save their jobs) that Gladio was a legitimate subject for an investigative historical documentary trilogy.

Until Gladio's existence was acknowledged, there was a whole mass of suspicious material - ranging from Gehlen Org to coups in Greece to the Bologna bombing to the OAS attempted assassination of de Gaulle to the UK's Column 88 to the Red Brigades etc - which could be dismissed by those in power as simply random acts of violence with no connnection to anything larger.

After Gladio's existence was confirmed, that Official Narrative could no longer hold. A few journalists and historians started to investigate these disparate events, and they often succeeded in identifying links to Gladio structures.

Individual cells may have existed in low level isolation but a Strategy of Tension false flag philosophy was increasingly evident.





Seamus - you write "read carefully". There you go again.

There are many articles written by Mae Brussell which have additional meaning and resonance now that we know of the existence of Gladio, and its MO. When she originally wrote those articles, she was often drawing attention to matters that concerned her - that made her antennae twitch - without the benefit of knowing that many of her "Hits" concerned the invisible, secret, structure of Gladio.

Seamus Coogan Wrote:Yes they do and Francovichs ballsy work shouldn't be tarred by putting the Torbitt document garbage alongside his stuff. Nor should Brussell's opinions of them nor her work be overlooked or clouded because of it either. She made far more valuable contributions than that. As you clearly no.

As for Crisman, man oh man. Who gives a flying retarded shit? Theres evidence of a whole heap of stuff going down with or without Crismans involvement anyhow. In effect the points you have made Jan are precisely why the Torbitt Documents are so bad they leech off the legitimate work of other people. Furthermore, I suggest anybody concerned about the truth email Kenn Thomas and ask him why he felt the need to libel Jim DiEugenio with regards to Torbitt.

Seamus - by now, as your typos reveal, you're clearly in full stream of consciousness mode. So, I'll cut you some slack as you clearly haven't understood my argument.

There are many researchers who are interested in Fred Lee Crisman - including Peter Levenda, Linda Minor and David Guyatt. I am interested in Crisman because of his role in several highly signficant psyops and/or disinformation operations.

David Guyatt Wrote:Crisman is, indeed, a very interesting character. More background here:

http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Fred%20Crisman.ht

Quote:Twenty-five years after Crisman failed to yield much value for Garrison, he remains much of a mystery. But what can be pieced together indicates Crisman was part and parcel of the seamy underworld of the intelligence community that flourished during the 1950s and '60s.

*Garrison's conclusions

In a lengthy handwritten memo to Jonathan Blackmer, an investigator for the House select committee that re-investigated Kennedy's assassination in the late 1970s and had a keen interest in Crisman, Garrison spelled out what he had concluded about Crisman:

" . . . I suggest the only reasonable conclusion is that he was (and probably is, if still around), an operative at a deep cover level in a long-range, clandestine, intelligence mission directly (in terms of our national intelligence paranoia) related to maintaining national security . . . Crisman emerges as an operative at a supervisory level . . . acquired by the apparatus to carry out the menial jobs that are needed to push a current mission forward, a middle man--in the final analysis--between the mechanics who eliminate, and the handy men, who otherwise support a termination mission, on one hand, and the distant, far removed, deeply submerged command level, on the other."

In Book One of Sinister Forces, Peter Levenda discusses the American "UFO'" sightings of 1947 (pp 168-174). Two key players in establishing the "flying saucer" psyop are the OSS's Fred Lee Crisman and the FBI's Guy Banister.

Seamus - you're perfectly free not to "give a flying retarded shit" about Crisman.

With respect, I disagree, and will continue to disagree.

Seamus Coogan Wrote:Hey its all good to have a back and forth Jan. I disagree in many ways but I came across as needlessly heavy handed. Crisman, yes he's an interesting character and I agree theres more to him than meets the eye. The Torbitt document stuff about him is of course dubious. But yeah he is definitely hooked up in disinfo. But theres also a ton of disinfo about Crisman. Hence I tread the path very warily.

Seamus Coogan Wrote:Unfortunately for our continued good relations I levelled my sights at Levenda in my new Farrell piece. Farrell quoted him. You'll see it when it comes out. But its a shame Levenda-whom I incidentally took an interest in after seeing a thread with you and Magda discussing him a while back does have some interesting stuff. But the Shaw stuff is really wack and he really let's himself down. Guy Banister the originator of the X-Files? Ummmmm right moving along!!!!!! I emailed Levenda asking for the documentation to all of this (and yes I asked politely and I didn't get a reply) am still waiting!!

Seamus Coogan Wrote:In saying that though like I say, I respect your points of views on a lot of things here and no matter when we differ its still the same. Like I said my apologies if the last few posts were a tad antagonistic. Dare I say let battle commence my good fellow!

Quote:FBI Drums Up Cymbals-Like 'Disk' in Idaho

BUTTE, Mont, July 11 - AP - FBI Agent W. G. Banister said an object which appeared to be a "flying disk" was found early today at Twin Falls, Ida. , and turned over to federal authorities there.

Banister, special agent in charge of the FBI in Montana and Idaho, said the bureau had reported the discovery to the army at Fort Douglas, Utah.

An FBI agent in Twin Falls inspected the "saucer" and described it as similar to the "cymbals used by a drummer in a band, placed face to face. "

The object measured 30 1/2 inches in diameter, with a metal dome on one side and a plastic dome about 14 inches high on the opposite side...