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+--- Thread: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile (/thread-3232.html)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 08-03-2010
John Kowalski Wrote:Remarkably, the book was originally more than 2000 pages
long, but John had to edit tightly and leave out lots of valuable
evidence which should have been included...such as his interviews
with the Ziger sisters in Argentina, and his detailed revelations
about Donald O. Norton.
Jack
Let's hope that John Armstrong will someday release the rest of his research on Lee Harvey Oswald to the research community. While this material does not meet the standards he used for the material that was included in his book, if made available to JFK researchers, could be explored and expanded upon by the JFK research community, and may even be able to answer some of the questions that he left unanswered in his book.
John Kowalski[/QUOTE]
Copies of all of John's work will eventually be placed with a major
research library. Part of it has already been processed.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
John,
Thanks for this post, which is valuable for several different reasons. Since you refer to Judyth as "already a member of this forum" on 13 March 2004, which is the date on which you established the JFK assassination segment of The Education Forum, may I infer that you were already in contact with Judyth and considered her to be "a member of the forum", even though she would not formally join the forum until 27 March 2004?
![[Image: kairft.jpg]](http://i49.tinypic.com/kairft.jpg)
And may I also infer that, in the course of your contacts with her prior to 13 March 2004, she, like others, may have suggested that having such a segment of the forum would be a good idea? In the post following your dedication of the JFK assassination section at http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=511, for example, Raymond Blair states, "I proposed this activity on another thread in this forum", where he, like Judyth, is inclined to take some credit for its establishment.
If I am correct in my inferences about this, then I think we have a resolution to the controversy about the origins of the JFK assassination forum, which you founded on 13 March 2004 after having received several suggestions for doing so from Raymond Blair, Judyth Baker, and others. Which makes perfectly good sense, since you were in sufficient contact with her to consider her to already be "a member of the forum", even though she would not formally join the forum until 27 March 2004.
Your link to a previous thread at http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1435 yields a bonanza of information, including extremely interesting posts from Wim Dankbaar, Pamela McElwain-Brown, Martin Shackelford, Bob Vernon, John Ritchson, Judyth and you. Your post of 28 August 2004, for example, explains that you have had extensive contact with Judyth and that you are inclined to believe her story, not least of all because it fits your own analysis of historical events.
During the course of the thread, you provide yet another link at http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1758 which also appears to be loaded with interesting material. So I want to thank you for making this post. I believe my reconstruction of those events has the potential to resolve some conflicts about their interpretation, which promises to reconcile your remark about Judyth being "a member of the forum" already even though she did not formally join until the 27th.
Jim
[quote name='John Simkin' post='185926' date='Mar 7 2010, 02:34 PM'][quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='185816' date='Mar 6 2010, 03:32 PM']Here is a nice example of Billy Kelly's research skills: "We have already heard from John Simpkin concerning her allegations that forming this forum was her idea. Now we'll just have to wait and see what Syndey has to say."
John said (in his post, which Kelly takes as authoritative), "I then invited her to answer my question on the Forum. She agreed and joined on 27th March 2004." Except that, In POST #1 of 13 March 2004, he wrote:
(in relation to a story by John McAdams): "I believe his account is full of inaccuracies. As Judyth Baker is a member of the forum I hope she will point this out for us. "
So obviously John's memory is faulty, since Judyth was a member from the beginning. What you, Bill, have taken to be authoritative was wrong, which I find to be typical of you.[/quote]
I am not relying on memory. If you look at this thread and check-out Judyth's post you will see under her name the date she joined:
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1435
After I criticised Judyth's story on the JFK forum I received an email from Wim attacking my views. At the time Wim had some financial interest in her story. Wim put me in contact with Judyth and over several months she answered my questions by email. She also provided me with a great deal of documentation that supported her story. At the end of this long exchange I came to the conclusion that even though some of her story was clearly true, some of it owed something to her creative imagination. I think most JFK researchers have come to the same conclusion. However, some, like Wim and Jim, take a different view. Personally, I do not hold strong views on this and I definitely do not have the time or energy to discuss Judyth's story on this forum.
[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
Under the circumstances of this thread, reposting John Simkin's analysis of 28 August 2004 appears highly appropriate.
John Simkin
Aug 28 2004, 07:27 AM
Post #5
Super Member
Group: admin
Posts: 14134
Joined: 16-December 03
From: Worthing, Sussex
Member No.: 7
Pamela McElwain-Brown is right to say that Judyth Vary Baker has been treated appallingly by many JFK researchers. I have had a lot of contact with Judyth and she has been extremely helpful in providing evidence that supports her story. There is no doubt that Judyth did work at the Reily Coffee Company in New Orleans in 1963. It is also clear that she was an outstanding science student who went on to do cancer research.
Judyth has had difficulty proving that she had an affair with Lee Harvey Oswald in 1963. However, I would argue that we would all have problems providing documentary evidence that we had a secret affair with someone 40 years ago. The same goes for being involved in a CIA undercover project.
If Judyth’s story is true it provides an important insight to what was going on in 1963. One of the reasons I am sympathetic towards Judyth’s story is that it supports my own view of events.
I believe that Oswald was indeed working for the CIA in 1963. His task was to infiltrate anti-Castro groups. He was also being prepared to take part in an assassination plot against Castro. In the summer of 1963 the CIA officially had to call off this operation (under pressure from JFK). It was at this time that the CIA discovered that JFK was using William Attwood, Lisa Howard and Jean Daniel to carry out secret negotiations with Castro. It was now clear that an invasion of Cuba would now never take place.
Some fairly senior CIA agents, including David Morales, now decided to use these people involved in the plot against Castro in the assassination of JFK. Some of these people, including Oswald, objected to this change in policy. As Judyth points out, Oswald did what he could to undermine the operation. I suspect Richard Case Nagell was another who fell into this category.
Oswald was now clearly an unreliable agent. It was decided that he would no longer be part of the plot. Instead, he became the man who would be set up as the patsy. The plan was for him to be killed on what appeared to be on his journey to Cuba. The conspirators thought that this would guarantee that Johnson would send troops to overthrow Castro.
However, this elaborate plot collapsed for two major reasons. One was the failure to kill Oswald at the right time. Even so, although more difficult, this plot would have still worked when Ruby was able to kill Oswald before he could publicly tell the world what had happened.
The second problem was far more serious. The conspirators fully expected Lyndon Johnson to order an invasion of Cuba after J. Edgar Hoover told him on 23rd November, 1963, that John F. Kennedy had been assassinated as a result of a conspiracy that involved Cuba and the Soviet Union. This was confirmed at a meeting that day with John McCone (Director of the CIA).
Johnson was reluctant to do this. He knew that the announcement of a communist conspiracy to kill John Kennedy would be followed by a full investigation into the events surrounding the assassination. If this happened, Johnson was likely to be forced to resign in disgrace.
In November, 1963, Johnson was embroiled in a serious political scandal. According to Robert Winter Barger, Johnson told John McCormick: “… that son of a bitch (Bobby Baker) is going to ruin me. If that cocksucker talks, I’m gonna land in jail…. I practically raised that mother****** and now he’s going to make me the first President of the United States to spend the last days of his life behind bars!”
Senator John Williams was known as the "Sherlock Holmes of Capitol Hill". During a 15 year period his investigations resulted in over 200 indictments and 125 convictions. In the summer of 1963 he began investigating the activities of Bobby Baker, Fred Black and Billie Sol Estes. Baker was LBJ’s political secretary. Black was one of LBJ’s political advisers. Both these men were involved in the business activities of Billie Sol Estes.
Senator John McClellan, chairman of the Permanent Investigations Committee, also became involved in this inquiry. Williams and McClellan discovered that in 1962 Baker had established the Serve-U-Corporation with his friend, Fred Black, and mobsters Ed Levenson and Benny Sigelbaum. The company was to provide vending machines for companies working on federally granted programs. The machines were manufactured by a company secretly owned by Sam Giancana and other mobsters based in Chicago. It was claimed that LBJ was getting a rake-off from Serve-U-Corporation in return for arranging for vending machines to be placed in these company’s offices and factories.
Evidence also emerged that Lyndon B. Johnson was also involved in political corruption concerning the placing of arms contracts. This included the award of a $7 billion contract for a fighter plane, the TFX, to General Dynamics, a company based in Texas. Fred Korth, the Navy Secretary, and a close friend of LBJ, had been involved in negotiating this contract.
On 7th October, 1963, Baker was forced to leave his post as LBJ’s secretary. On 1st November, 1963, Korth was forced to resign over the TFX contract.
Rumours began to spread that JFK was going to drop LBJ as his running mate in 1964. Robert Kennedy appeared to confirm this by briefing against LBJ. This including information that suggested that LBJ would be prosecuted for political corruption.
At this time the key witness had yet to testify. His name was Don B. Reynolds. A close friend of Bobby Baker, Reynolds claimed that for many years he had a business relationship with LBJ. Reynolds was due to provide evidence before a secret session of the Senate Rules Committee on 22nd November, 1963. LBJ would not be there to hear what was said for on that day he was to be visiting Dallas with JFK.
On returning from Dallas LBJ discovered what Reynolds had told B. Everett Jordan and his Senate Rules Committee that day. According to Reynolds he had seen a suitcase full of money which Baker described as a "$100,000 payoff to Johnson for his role in securing the Fort Worth TFX contract".
LBJ immediately contacted B. Everett Jordan to see if there was any chance of stopping this information being published. Jordan replied that he would do what he could but warned Johnson that some members of the committee wanted Reynolds's testimony to be released to the public.
To Johnson the safe option would be to claim that Lee Harvey Oswald was a lone gunman. J. Edgar Hoover also had good reasons to accept this option. Any thorough investigation would show Hoover’s close relationship with Clint Murchison, a Texas multimillionaire who was suspected on being one of those who helped fund the assassination.
John McCone, Director of the CIA, also had his problems. An investigation would show that some senior figures in the organization, including Tracy Barnes, David Atlee Phillips, Ted Shackley, Desmond FitzGerald, William Harvey and David Morales were implicated in the assassination.
It did not take long for Johnson to convince J. Edgar Hoover and John McCone to take part in the cover-up. The problem for Johnson was to provide a good reason for this action. He knew that eventually historians would discover what he had done.
Lyndon Johnson taped every telephone conversation he had as president. However, he erased most of these tapes afterwards. He did keep some and these were donated to the Lyndon Johnson Library on his death. Over the last few years these tapes have gradually been released.
As historians the most important question to ask is: Why did LBJ decide to keep these tapes? We have to assume he eventually wanted this information in the public domain. One tape saved was a telephone call he made to his great friend, Richard Russell on 29th November, 1963:
“Richard Russell: I know I don't have to tell you of my devotion to you but I just can't serve on that Commission. I'm highly honoured you'd think about me in connection with it but I couldn't serve on it with Chief Justice Warren. I don't like that man. I don't have any confidence in him at all.
Lyndon B. Johnson: It has already been announced and you can serve with anybody for the good of America and this is a question that has a good many more ramifications than on the surface and we've got to take this out of the arena where they're testifying that Khrushchev and Castro did this and did that and chuck us into a war that can kill 40 million Americans in an hour…
LBJ explains that if he accepts a communist conspiracy he will be under pressure to invade Cuba. This is likely to lead to a nuclear war that would “kill 40 million Americans in an hour.” Therefore, the only safe course is to believe that Oswald was a lone gunman. That there was no communist conspiracy. Therefore, LBJ’s cover up helps to save the world.
The right-wing cabal that organized the assassination of JFK did not get the overthrow of Castro. However, they did get something very important out of the deal. The continuance of the Cold War. This after all is what the Military Industrial Complex wanted out of the assassination. In fact, the existence of a communist government so close to the United States helped to fuel the paranoia that was the life-blood of American foreign policy.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
In another earlier thread, http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1758, Judyth has replied to McAdams.
Judyth Baker
Sep 27 2004, 06:43 AM
Post #1
Experienced Member
Group: Members
Posts: 85
Joined: 27-March 04
Member No.: 606
Part 1: John McAdams and Judyth Vary Baker
This posting is a correction of the John McAdams’ web page on Judyth Vary Baker (September, 2004).
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/judyth.htm
If Judyth Vary Baker is telling the truth, it will change the way we think about the Kennedy assassination. (John McAdams)
He immediately places doubt in the mind of the reader. Nice start.
Judyth offers an account that integrates much that has been written about the assassination into a more or less coherent whole and puts myriad facts about the assassination in an entirely new light. She has recently been in the Netherlands, getting some attention in the Dutch media, and has opened a museum dedicated to telling her story. (John McAdams)
The subtle little word twists begin. Here, McAdams calls my account "a more or less coherent whole..." which again places the account into a state of doubt.
The Museum was called the Lee Harvey Oswald Museum and was dedicated to telling Lee Harvey Oswald´s story, as every visitor quickly realized. Yes, there was a section on me, and a museum case full of materials that Lee and I had used and owned together. But 75% of the museum space was dedicated to Lee Harvey Oswald.
She was the subject of "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" which aired in November, 2003 on the History Channel. (John McAdams)
Nigel Turner produced a nine-segment series over a period of years called "The Men Who Killed Kennedy." TMWKK segments have been aired on The History Channel for over a decade. Segment Eight, newly released on the 40th anniversary of the assassination in November, 2003, focused on the love affair between me and Lee Harvey Oswald, with much new information released about Lee Oswald´s activities between April, 1963 and his murder on November 24, 1963. The documentary was suppressed soon after outcries from friends of the Lyndon B. Johnson family protested the contents of Segment Nine, "The Guilty Men." All three new TMWKK segments were pulled from the expected nine/year airing schedule. The History Channel announced that it sold the rights to unknown parties. A panel said Segment Nine was a disgrace to the memory of LBJ. Many believed the panel´s many errors reflected its hasty kangaroo court mentality. The censorship was unprecedented in US documentary film history. Thousand of copies of these films were destroyed and many thousands who tried to purchase the three segments got their money back. Since the History Channel even shows documentaries about Bigfoot, Nessie, and UFO´s, one wonders why "The Love Affair" was also included, since it was never mentioned by the panel. The History Channel made a public apology to the LBJ family for the contents of "The Guilty Men." In fact, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence as well as witnesses who testified that LBJ knew Kennedy was going to die in Dallas. Many people have decided that the film actually hit too close to home.
Her supporters have promised a book. (John McAdams)
Another subtle twist. I, myself, have written two books. The first attempt to publish was a failure due to the mishandling of the literary agent and possibly due to threats of lawsuits which Mr. David Lifton promised to deliver to all the big publishers at that time. There was also a small, original series of writings which were originally going to be willed to my son upon my death. Originally, I was not going to speak out at all. Many times, I have regretted doing so, because of the harassment that followed. That is why I am currently living overseas, where, in fact, I have experienced no real harassment from anybody, and where my testimony has been well received. There WILL be a book published, if a fearless publisher can be found.
She may turn into someone important on the JFK assassination scene. But is she to be believed?
Key sources on the “Judyth” story include:
– an essay sarcastically titled “My Boring Life,” a response to David Lifton’s claim that Judyth has fabricated her story to add some interest to a her boring life.
– a biographical blurb written to her high school classmates and posted on the web page of Manatee High School. There were two versions of the blurb posted, one a bit “sanitized” after it apparently occurred to Judyth that her original version contained some things that are hard to swallow. Space constraints have forced her blurb off the current version of the high school alumni page.
– an outline, titled “Deadly Alliance,” sent to publishers and researchers. Carefully formatted and polished, this is the “official” version of her story – at least it was when it was written. In this essay, “the Judyth account” or “Judyth’s account” refers to “Deadly Alliance.”
– a draft of the final chapter of her book, titled “Before the Silence Came: Lee’s Last Telephone Calls.”
– a rambling version of her story and a response to critics written in November 2003.
– Yet another web page from Judyth, including several photos, and samples of Judyth’s artwork. (John McAdams)
McAdams would have the reader believe these are key sources of my story. They are not. I will address the problems in the selection McAdams decided to use. ACTUAL Key sources include:
(1) information on The Education Forum that is presented by those who actually know me and defend me (or, the information is straight from my mouth personally).
(2) The documentary "The Love Affair" which was recorded by thousands of American viewers (The Dallas Public Library also has a copy) The documentary, minus commercials, is 44 minutes long (3) An interview made May 13, 2004 by Black Op Radio, which is archived and available to all (it is an hour and a half long)
(4) Original emails (not stolen ones) and materials sent to trusted researchers which are being overseen by two long time investigators into my history (and sometimes they are still pretty rough with me, but I appreciate that!), namely, Martin Shackelford and Dr. Howard Platzman. There are other individuals who at this date have obtained significant portions of my testimony and have not, to my knowledge, altered it or misquoted it. Others pretended friendship, obtained materials, and have quoted out of context or even changed certain words. For example, I never wrote the phrase `fine hotel in Cancun. ´Never! But it is constantly quoted by the man who fabricated that phrase (Dave Reitzes). I sent Reitzes confidential material. he published all of it, even though some of it exposed information about my witnesses which I had promised to keep out of the public eye.
But to the key sources, so-called, cited by McAdams.
- an essay sarcastically titled "My Boring Life," a response to David Lifton's claim that Judyth has fabricated her story to add some interest to a her boring life.
Mr. Lifton spoke to me in a single telephone conversation lasting about an hour and a half. He illegally taped that conversation. He soon broke his promise to keep our conversation confidential, perhaps because the biography of Lee Oswald he had been working on for over ten years was hopelessly inaccurate, since he missed our love affair altogether, even though I have witnesses and considerable supporting evidence (much is circumstantial evidence, but it´s good, nevertheless, because I have so much of it). Lifton seems to have decided to discredit me rather than go to the trouble of rewriting his book. Debra Conway helped him write a portion of this book and admits to the friendship and influence of David Lifton. Conway shared materials with Lifton that she promised to keep confidential "to the grave." Lifton, knowing nothing about my actually interesting and exciting life, proposed that I made up everything because I was simply a bored housewife with nothing else to do who decided to insert herself into history. As if I saved all the evidence I have all these years all by accident! I put out a list of the many interesting experiences I’ve had in life, from raising five brilliant children who all got their degrees on full scholarships (I raised four of them as a single parent), to my backpacking in just a week across Israel (with help of donkey, camel, and soldiers). I sell my paintings internationally, was a newspaper reporter, have explored Indian mounds and Viking graves (I have a degree in anthropology), and was a counsellor for battered women and the homeless. My original intention was to become a doctor, and I was also doing cancer research while still in my teens that gained national attention. A psychiatrist who heard the story of my life did not believe me! I had the evidence at hand, but he declined to look at any of it and thought I made a lot of it up. I did not. From my work helping to invent new uses for limolene (orange oil) products, to having studied Egyptian hieroglyphs, to having my name on a monument for civic service, to having known and loved Lee Harvey Oswald, it’s all true. Boring life? No way. A KEY source of information about me? I suppose, though it was just a post in response to the silly idea that my life was boring so I made up the love affair Lee and I had.
- a biographical blurb written to her high school classmates and posted on the web page of Manatee High School.
McAdams doesn´t call this "Key Source" anything but ´blurb’, so why does he list it at all? It was originally sent to my classmates because nobody but they ever looked at the high school site. I changed the information several times to update it, and because space there was limited, some things were also taken out to make room for updates. McAdams called this "changing the story." It was only meant for my friends. I have a newspaper article from 1961 showing that 50 high school friends planned and hosted a welcome home party for me just before I left for college. I had avoided reunions and wanted my friends to learn why ( I did not want my name to become public because of my love affair with Lee, and I knew if I went to a reunion, I might tell somebody about Lee, so I stayed away... I contacted my high school friends when I knew that Sixty Minutes might film me. Later, Nigel Turner filmed me instead, so I updated the entry. Etc.
There were two versions of the blurb posted, one a bit "sanitized" after it apparently occurred to Judyth that her original version contained some things that are hard to swallow. Space constraints have forced her blurb off the current version of the high school alumni page.
McAdams uses the word ´blurb’ to downgrade to the reader what I wrote. As I already said, because of space constraints, when I added new material, I deleted some of the old. McAdams, even as he mentions space constraints, accuses me of sanitizing what I wrote. A person without prejudice will see that nothing of major importance was removed from the ´blurb’. McAdams also errs in believing that two versions only were posted. There were actually four updates. He only shows the last update. By then, some original material was excluded to make room for new material.
- an outline, titled "Deadly Alliance," sent to publishers and researchers.
Only a few publishers ever saw the outline. And they NEVER saw the outline at this stage (half finished, mostly written by Dr. Platzman). McAdams somehow got a copy of this material intended for only a few, and at a stage where a few researchers were asked to look at it for ideas on how to better handle the information. In fact, although the format looked nice, coming from a Microsoft Word program, the outline was a work in progress. It had some glaring errors, but there were large parts that were very nice, indeed. This preliminary outline version is a shrimp compared to the final 34 page version when the outline was finished. This does not stop McAdams from calling this ´polished...´ Hmmmm! It seems that the high school stuff was mere ´blurb’ but this.... which was itself undergoing development, is called ´polished.´ WHO told McAdams this was a finished product? Nobody!
Carefully formatted and polished, this is the "official" version of her story - at least it was when it was written. In this essay, "the Judyth account" or "Judyth's account" refers to "Deadly Alliance."
But folks, "Deadly Alliance" was an attempt to put my original book as edited and fluffed out by an unscrupulous agent who did so much editing he tried to call himself a co-author, with additions and organization by Dr. Howard Platzman, based on extensive emails he had received. Needless to say, Deadly Alliance was a work in progress. In fact, there were a number of errors and attempts to integrate the story, coming from too many different points of view. All of this was because I wished to avoid writing about certain things and had sought the help of Dr. Platzman as a ´with author’, and of my agent, to add any footnotes or comments. Platzman did a good job, but he described me and Lee in ways that were just not ‘us’. As for the literary agent, he put in actual nonsense and in some cases, some inaccurate phrases and ideas, mostly because he knew almost nothing about the JFK assassination.
The manuscript excerpts from which McAdams quotes, then, are from an unfinished work that was eventually discarded because there were too many errors and difficulties in reconciling what I knew with what got written. It was very painful and difficult to read the manuscript. I put it off for a long time. Finally, upon reading the version that went around, I realized that it would never be the book I had hoped for. I therefore went back to the original book and the written materials I’d compiled for my son in 1998, and from these, with some additions from the Deadly Alliance book, I did finish a book which was more accurate as to how Lee spoke and what we did. Many years had passed, and I had not any idea of what was important and what was not to write about. I do have a much better idea now. I saved a great deal of evidence, however, to back up everything I’ve written. Also, I would like to add that only minor details have sometimes been changed. For example, I NEVER said I would meet Lee at Cancun and we would stay in a fine hotel. Part of a dialogue I wrote got ´enhanced’ to identify ´Cancun’. For that error and many others, and for just plain greediness, I fired my literary agent. Later, I had to ask Dr. Platzman’s forgiveness, but after removing what the literary agent put on, the book was in shreds and a lot of Dr. Platzman’s materials had incorporated some of the fluff added by the agent. Another problem was trying to get the chronology correct. After all, many years had passed.
For all these reasons, it should be clear that Deadly Alliance was not a finished product at any time. I might work down a page and not even get to the end, but send it off to Howard to see if he liked what I had fixed so far... what McAdams got his hands on he calls a finished product. It never was!
- a draft of the final chapter of her book, titled "Before the Silence Came: Lee's Last Telephone Calls."
It certainly was a draft, but elsewhere, McAdams quotes portions of it as if the final chapter had been set in carved stone!
- a rambling version of her story and a response to critics written in November 2003.
How nice of McAdams to once again inject into his discourse another negative connotation so that the reader will have a low opinion of whatever I write!
- Yet another web page from Judyth, including several photos, and samples of Judyth's artwork.
And McAdams took one of those photos without permission, a copyrighted photo, and published it on this attack website! It belongs to me, it is going to be in the book, but he appropriated it anyway. I have asked him twice to remove it from his website. He refuses to do so. What an ethical guy.
--------------------
Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1675
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
Here is Part II of Judyth's rebuttal to McAdams from http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1758
Judyth Baker
Sep 27 2004, 07:26 AM
Post #2
Experienced Member
Group: Members
Posts: 85
Joined: 27-March 04
Member No.: 606
Part 2: John McAdams and Judyth Vary Baker
Star Science Student Recruited into Deadly Conspiracy (John McAdams)
McAdams subtly describes me as a ´star science student’ which I was in high school. In college, I was studying pre/med and my activities in that field were known only to my sponsoring doctors and Senator George Smathers. In other words, it leaves the impression that I was recruited into a ´Deadly Conspiracy´ while I was in high school. read the rest of this and decide for yourself:
Judyth's saga begins when she was a student at Manatee High School in Bradenton, Florida. Among fellow students who remember her, opinion is about evenly split between remembering her as "intelligent" and remembering her as "weird," E-mail from Robert Johnson dated July 30, 2003. Johnson contacted several of her former classmates... (John McAdams)
I had several concerned classmates call me saying that they had been contacted by somebody who asked them, "What do you think about this weird woman and her bizarre story" One classmate said she considered Mr. Johnson hostile when she said nice things about me. Did Mr. Johnson only give the people he interviewed two choices? (`weird´ and ‘intelligent’)...how many did he interview? Most of my former classmates who liked me and are still alive never heard from Mr. Johnson. A not too close friend, Martin Overstreet, told The Bradenton Herald in a Nov. 2003 interview that I was ´a very kind person.´ Buddy Grace, another classmate, wrote to say additional nice things. Bob Pope, yet another classmate, said, some kind comments, "while the rest of us were doing science fair projects, Judy was doing science.." Dave Deitrich, an older classmate interviewed by Ed Haslam in Bradenton, had only nice things to say, too, and remembered running into me in the radiation area of the physics and engineering buildings.
THE TRUTH IS THAT I WAS FAIRLY POPULAR, AND HAD A LOT OF FRIENDS. ESPECIALLY, BOYFRIENDS!
My boyfriends, and my cancer research project, took a lot of extra time. My guys would carry my books and lab materials over to the hospital for me, walking two miles with me those days I missed my ride because of a club meeting.
While I was never class president, or one of the voted most popular, I missed being on the Most Popular list by just one vote (if I had voted for myself, I would have made the list!). The high school yearbook shows I was socially active and had a lot of friends. I was on the Prom Committee, for example, and was a National Honor Society Page, the secretary of the science club, and a former vice president of Societas Latina. I was staff artist for the high school newspaper and won an award for fund raising for my class. I was one of five actors in the Sophomore Play, and I had loads of fun with my friends, especially my boyfriends!
She appears to have been an excellent science student who conducted "cancer research" with mice. (John McAdams)
McAdams here places the words CANCER RESEARCH in quotes, as if this is not what HE would call it! But for all that, it was. I presented a paper on my work to the Westinghouse Science Talent Search and won a division prize representing the State of Florida. Drs. Howard Diehl, George Moore and Alton Ochsner personally inspected my cancer research work, which had been conducted under two doctors trained and licensed to handle radiation at Oak Ridge, as well as being under the auspices of half a dozen other doctors and a few retired military officers. I had additional encouragement from Walter Reed Institute’s own Chief Radiologist, Dr. David Jacobus. Now, I was sixteen when being guided by these doctors and scientists.
Dr. Diehl - the Executive National Vice President of Research for the American Cancer Society - actually travelled to Manatee High School to personally assess the value of my work. He was so impressed that he recommended I should work in Dr. Moore’s own lab (Moore was the DIRECTOR of the entire Roswell Park Memorial Institute, one of the finest in the world, and the oldest cancer research facility in the US, in Buffalo). I was given housing, board, and a stipend at the level of a graduate student. I also received numerous full scholarships, and grants from the National Science Foundation, the National Cancer Institute, etc. I was assigned after my summer of cancer research training to do advanced cancer research on melanogenesis, under the guidance of scientists associated with Eli Lily and Roswell Park. I ended up doing two years of cancer research and associated work with radiation, blood component tagging with isotopes, cancerous human tissue cultures, etc. at both St. Francis College and at The University of Florida, where I worked under a special licensure.
I presented a paper to the Indiana Biological Society on melanogenesis, with certification of my work by two nuns, who were scientists-doctors, who accompanied me. The paper was not published because I did not have a degree, but the presentation of the paper was to a full house. McAdams mentions none of this!
She received a fair amount of recognition for her academic prowess (John McAdams)
No, for my cancer research! I had very good grades but cancer research was what I received recognition for - for that, and for inventing an enhanced process for more efficiently claiming magnesium metal from seawater, for which I received an award at the International Science and Engineering Fair in Indianapolis. If you ever watch the film October Skies, you’ll know how fantastic it was for a sixteen year old girl (soon to be 17) to be invited to represent the State of Florida at that time. In fact, the Navy also awarded me six week cruise on a battleship-aircraft carrier... but withdrew it because I was a female! No female had ever won a top award in the Florida State Science Fair in the Physical Sciences Division at that time, who also qualified for the Navy Award in chemistry and physics.
… attending national workshops for science students (John McAdams)
I never attended a ´national workshop for science students. I attended an invitation-only cancer research summer of training that was open to outstanding biochemistry and radiobiology students sponsored by leading doctors in the country. These students ranged from high school to college graduates. There were some high school science teachers also involved, but the vast majority in the training sessions were college graduates. I worked side by side with them, with my own personal cancer research project in helping to develop a better medium to grow melanoma cancer. And I succeeded in creating a medium that advanced the methodology for growing tissue cultures of melanoma. I had to present a paper at Roswell Park on my research. The presentation was considered the best among all the National science Foundation awardees, of whom I was one. There were only 68 of us. And I worked in the Director´s own personal lab. Hardly a ´national workshop for science students’. I came form there able to grow any kind of cancer - with perfected skill - and was given the assignment to try to create ´the most deadly cancers.´ I have several newspaper articles reporting on this ongoing assignment in college for the next two years, with grants from the NSF and the NIH and the ACS. McAdams avoids ever mentioning my advanced training in cancer research.
But her life took an important turn when she came to the attention of Dr. Canute Michaelson in 1958. (John McAdams)
He has this out of sequence. By the time I was trained at Roswell Park and given the deadly cancer assignment as an ongoing project, with reports sent to Roswerll Park and/or The American Cancer Society´s own Dr. Diehl, and to Dr. Alton Ochsner, it was 1961.
In 1958, I was a sophomore with a small private cancer research project on fish. Dr. Michaelson saw the project and made sure my high school got a new science building and equipment. He was connected to the CIA. He was also impressed with some other science students there, not just with me.
Michaelson (supposedly a "CIA asset" engaged in bioweapons research) somehow targeted her for future intelligence use... See for example "Een Amerikaanse held" in De Groene Amsterdammer, June 21, 2003. (John McAdams)
This is ridiculous! What Michaelson did was to introduce me to some military friends of Col. Philip V. Doyel, as well as encouraging my biology teacher, Mrs. McCartney, to allow me space to do research. Hardly sinister! Blackout curtains were ordered and installed so outstanding science students could work late evenings without being noticed. Doyle formed the Science Seminar at the suggestion of David Tracy and David Deitrich, who became friends of mine. They were geniuses. heck, we all tested out as geniuses on their IQ tests most of us were given, so we got this attention, mainly because SPUTNIK had gone up in 1957, and in 1958, scientists were going around hunting for talented young people to encourage them to become scientists.
That was the extent of Michaelson´s involvement - he got me in touch with Oak Ridge scientists and Col. Doyle contacted some doctors trained at Oak Ridge, as well as a few local doctors and scientists involved with the brand new oncology department at Manatee Memorial Hospital. I would spend a lot of hours there.
McAdams quotes from a Dutch interview where the Dutchman has to interpret my English story. He didn’t quite understand how Michaelson was involved. When I tried to correct McAdams about the real utility of my connection with Michaelson, which had to do with connecting me to Oak Ridge, but certainly with nothing sinister, he DID change the passage somewhat., Before this, McAdams stated that Michaelson lured me into a plot to kill Fidel Castro! Imagine that! In 1958, when Castro wasn’t yet in power, no less! McAdams, having linked me through Michaelson with the Fidel Castro plot, just had to keep embroidering this brief association, even after being corrected... so he now writes:
She was thus drawn into the orbit of very sinister people and eventually into a plot that had the intention of killing Castro, but ended up killing JFK instead. (John McAdams)
McAdams cleverly injects the words’ "very sinister people" so that readers will think I must be paranoid or something! You have already read that I was placed in contact with legitimate doctors and scientists, as well as gaining the attention and kind support of retired military officers, who helped rise money to build a brand new science building, thanks also to our high school principal, who coordinated that effort. Is that SINISTER? Only in McAdams’ version, not mine!
The "interesting" time in her life was the summer of 1963, when she was in New Orleans. (John McAdams)
McAdams fails to mention two years of college...by cramming into summer sessions as well.... where I continued to work in cancer research and related projects while auditing pre-med classes and generating grants for the University of Florida, which was at that time rapidly expanding its science departments. McAdams thus makes it seem I went straight from a science summer camp to New Orleans, insofar as training is concerned. he never mentions that I was assigned to try to create "the most deadly cancers." But I digress. Let’s see what additional tales McAdams decides to spin his own peculiar way:
It was there that she began, she claims, a torrid sexual affair with Lee Harvey Oswald, in spite of having been recently married to Robert Baker, a student and future petroleum geologist who was working for an oil company. (John McAdams)
In fact, in New Orleans, I met and fell in love with Lee Harvey Oswald, and after a period of considerable contemplation and thought, he and I commenced a love affair. Sex was far from the only reason we fell in love. I resembled Marina Oswald (McAdams does not mention this here) and both of us were unhappily married. I, in fact, was married ´on the fly’ to a guy who promptly vanished, taking a job out in the Gulf of Mexico deliberately, as his letter to potential employers asked that he be given FIELD WORK! I didn’t know this until recently, when I read the back of one of his letters, where his inquiry letter was printed, possibly accidentally, since Robert was a frugal man who used leftover paper to write his letters on. Lee and I never intended to cheat on our mates, but we couldn’t help ourselves. One thing McAdams fails to mention, as well: I had learned to speak and read some Russian, and had intensively studied Russian classical music and literature. Lee loved these things very much, and we had this in common right from the start.
What brought Judyth and Lee together was a plot, centred in New Orleans, to produce a bio weapon for the purpose of killing Fidel Castro. (John McAdams)
Not so. What brought us together was a mistake. I came two weeks earlier than I was supposed to, to New Orleans, having been offered another summer of research, this time under Dr. Mary Sherman in Ochsner´s Foundation Clinic. Both Ochsner and Sherman were out of town, but I was mistaken for the person who was going to be sent to help Dave Ferrie with the clandestine side of that project. Lee Osweald either ran into me accidentally, or, now that I have hindsight, Dave Ferrie was asked to check on me, by Ochsner, when I arrived early (it was a dangerous city and I was alone). Ferrie concluded I was the promised helper and told me elements of the project before Ochsner or Sherman could stop him. I had dated anti-Castroites and was from Florida, fresh from the Cuban Missile Crisis, and was perfectly willing to cooperate in such a project. Anything to eliminate the man I was told was the equivalent of Osama B. L.
In the end, I became embroiled in the project. But the attraction Lee and I had for each other had nothing to do with any plot. In fact, Lee recruited me to help him keep his cover job intact at Reily. More details are in the book. It is complex, but McAdams manages to mess up everything in just a sentence or two. His oversimplification resembles, "And God created the heavens and the earth" to represent all of the history of the world. He woefully oversimplifies the matter. Then, of course, it is shocking and unbelievable. I can hardly recognize myself in McAdams’ version.
The plotters got them both "cover" jobs at the Reily Coffee Company while they were carrying on an affair and trying to produce a "cocktail" to administer to Castro. (John McAdams)
No. Error, once again. Lee had come to New Orleans to work on something entirely different, and the work I did at Reily had to do with keeping Lee´s job covered. The job was flexible enough that I could still work on the project at Dave Ferrie’s apartment, which was empty during the day. Materials and mice, etc., were hauled in and out by two Cuban teens under Ferrie´s control. My position was minimum wage because I did not work there fulltime, but it was on a salary. Near the end, I received some ´overtime’ due to Lee´s intervention, all of which is explained in the book in detail.
McAdams says that we were "carrying on an affair" when the "plotters" got us the "cover jobs." His version is a mess. Lee was working for Guy Banister at this time. We were very attracted to each other but were not having an affair at this time. NOR WERE WE TRYING TO PRODUCE A ´COCKTAIL´TO ADMINISTER TO CASTRO. This ´cocktail’ is Dr. Platzman´s description in shorthand for a complex project. I was involved in accelerating the progress of the deadly cancer part of the project. Others were involved in other aspects. The final administering of the product would be in the hands of Cubans, not Americans. This would free the US of any blame.
The "cocktail" would include both a virus designed to knock out Castro's immune system, and cancer cells that would infect him and cause his death. (John McAdams)
Needless to say, the description given here is laughably inadequate. I must stop here. There is much, much more to say. But I do hope that here, we have a beginning in the matter of correcting the web pages, filled with error, that McAdams manages to have come up FIRST at Google if my name is plugged in for a search. Something has to be done to correct this. I am in the process of moving and will have to stop here, but please visit Black Op Radio and listen to the interview there to get more information. And if you can, find a copy of "The Love Affair" to get a better, if still over/condensed, picture of what was going on.
I will try in a month or two to continue the exposure of the sorry piece of ´research. John McAdams has offered to ´explain’ my story. His method is to slip in words that prejudice the reader, to ignore or oversimplify my attainments, and to make sure that I sound unlikeable and without ethics. Fir example, he fails to mention that the reason I left St. Francis and was transferred to University of Florida was because my parents were upset when I decided to become a nun. McAdams mentions the developing relationship between Lee and me as a "torrid sexual affair" even though, mad in love as we were, we tried for some time to save our respective marriages.
I hope that this partial review of McAdams´ website about me will give everyone a better perspective on the truth.
--------------------
Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1675
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
Since John mentions Wim, here is a post of his from http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1758
Guest_Wim Dankbaar_* Sep 27 2004, 06:59 PM
Post #3
Guests
Dave Reitzes - in his usual distortive lying style - just posted this on Lancer on invitation of Bob Vernon. After calling each other names for years they seem to be brothers in arms now. The obvious question here is: Why do McAdams and Reitzes need to go through so much trouble if Judyth is so obviously a hoax? It seems almost a life mission for them to discredit Judyth and her story. Why bother?
Wim
John McAdams's article on Judyth Baker <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/judyth.htm> highlights many of the problems with those portions of Judyth's story that have been made publicly available; but I'd like to also take a minute to emphasize a few more of the contradictions inherent in Judyth's accounts to date.
This is a work in progress.
JUDYTH VARY BAKER: THE STORY SO FAR
(According to Judyth Vary Baker, Martin Shackelford, and Howard Platzman, Ph.D.)
Note: Howard Platzman is co-author (with Judyth) of "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy," various drafts of which Judyth has submitted to assassination researchers and prospective publishers. Martin Shackelford has been described by Platzman as Judyth's lead researcher.
Judyth Vary Baker worked for the CIA on an anti-Castro assassination project, and she can prove it. (1)
Judyth was never an employee or agent of the CIA, and never said she was. (2)
Judyth was introduced to Lee Oswald one day in New Orleans. (3)
No one introduced Judyth and Oswald; they met purely by chance. (4)
Or maybe not. (5)
Oswald worked for the CIA on an anti-Castro assassination project (and others), and Judyth can prove it. (6)
Oswald may not have worked for the CIA after all. (7)
A photograph published in the Warren Commission Report shows Judyth standing next to Oswald. (8)
There are no photographs depicting both Judyth and Oswald, and Judyth has never claimed otherwise. (9)
Judyth met Jack Ruby only once. (10)
Judyth met Jack Ruby twice. (11)
David Atlee Phillips was one of Oswald's CIA handlers. (12)
David Atlee Phillips may not have been one of Oswald's CIA handlers. (13)
Oswald knew Phillips by name. (14)
Oswald did not know Phillips by name. (15)
Oswald knew his handler as "Bishop." (16)
Oswald did not know his handler as "Bishop." (17)
"Bishop" was Phillips. (18)
"Bishop" and Phillips may have been two different people. (19)
Oswald said that Phillips was "Bishop." (20)
Oswald never said that Phillips was "Bishop." (21)
Oswald knew his handler as "Mr. B." (22)
Oswald did not know his handler as "Mr. B." (23)
"Mr. B" was Phillips. (24)
"Mr. B" may not have been Phillips. (25)
"Mr. B" may have been two different people, one of whom may have been Phillips. (26)
"Mr. B" was also "Bishop." (27)
"Mr. B" was not also "Bishop." (28)
Phillips was known as "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton." (29)
"Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" may have been somebody else. (30)
"Mr. B," "Mr. Bishop," and "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" were all the same person. (31)
"Mr. B," "Mr. Bishop," and "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" may have been at least two different people. (32)
Judyth met Guy Banister just once. (33)
Judyth met Guy Banister twice. (34)
Guy Banister was CIA. (35)
Guy Banister was not CIA, and Judyth never said he was. (36)
Judyth was introduced to Clay Shaw on one occasion, saw him from a distance on another, and spoke with him once on the phone. Shaw paid for some of her hotel trysts with Oswald. (37)
Judyth simply met Clay Shaw one time. (38)
Judyth did not know Clay Shaw. (39)
Clay Shaw was closely involved in the anti-Castro plot with Ochsner and the others. (40)
Clay Shaw was not closely involved in the anti-Castro plot with Ochsner and the others. (41)
Judyth knew Carlos Marcello, who affectionately referred to her as "That Little Thing." She and Oswald met with him personally, he picked up the tab for many of their dinners out, and it was due to his influence that she was never murdered by the conspirators who killed John F. Kennedy. (42)
Judyth did not know Carlos Marcello, and she has never claimed that she did. (43)
Oswald discussed Richard Case Nagell with Judyth in some detail, informing her he knew that Nagell, whom he referred to as one of his "doppelgangers," "had purposely gotten himself arrested for fear of being set up as a patsy." (44)
Oswald may have never discussed Nagell with Judyth, and anyone who thinks Judyth has referred to Richard Case Nagell in her writings is only making an assumption. (45)
Judyth's mentor was famed surgeon and humanitarian Dr. Alton Ochsner. For a time she worked for Ochsner. (46)
Judyth never worked for Alton Ochsner and never claimed to. They had no formal relationship. (47)
Oswald knew in advance about the assassination and, in an attempt to infiltrate and stop it, walked with eyes wide open into the "patsy" role. (48)
Oswald did not know he was slated to be the "patsy." (49)
On November 22, 1963, Judyth and a number of her co-workers set up chairs and watched the assassination of John F. Kennedy on television. (50)
Judyth and her co-workers absolutely did not watch the assassination of John F. Kennedy on television. (51)
(To be continued . . .)
****************************
1. Judyth Vary Baker, biographical blurb posted at Manatee High School alumni website. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sanitize.htm>: "Lee Oswald and I worked together for the CIA in an anti-Castro project which included delivery of live biological weapons into Cuba, one of them aimed to kill Castro." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 6, 2000: "I knew important people, and in indianapolis (sic) got conscripted into the CIA though (I) was just a minor." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 7, 2000: ". . . (Dr. Canute) Michaelson gave my name to the CIA as one of the bright brains in the country, and from that time on, I had access to equipment, funds, you name it, as well as special training involving doctors who got trained at Oak Ridge. . . . In short--and i (sic) can fill in many details--I had gone through projects starting in indianapolis (sic) with my being, apparently, conscripted into service of the CIA. I sa(y) apparently because i (sic) was a minor, and my father may have signed papers for me. I signed a lot of them, but I did not even bother to read them." Related sources: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 11, 2000: "I claimed connections with Oak Ridge and the CIA. They found documents from Oak Ridge--and presence of a CIA agent at the training sessions --which only recently have been released." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 16, 2000: "Not that I hadn;t (sic) bona fide ties with CIA. I did . . ." See also Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>. Judyth has stated numerous times that she has evidence to support all she says. For example: ". . . WHEN ONE HAS BEEN TRAINED AS A SCIENTIST, AND THEY HAVE WRITTEN AND REVIEWED AND READ MANY PAPERS, GENERALLY THEY ARE AWARE THAT IF THEY MAKE A STATEMENT, THERE HAD BETTER BE BACK-UP. SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT TRAINED IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD MAY NOT REALIZE THIS RESPONSIBILITY. I TAKE THE RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE OR BACK-UP FOR MY STATEMENTS SERIOUSLY. MU (sic) HAVING BEEN TRAINED IN THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD MEANS THAT I AM PARTICULARLY SENSITIVE TO THE ISSUE OF PROOF AND DOCUMENTATION." (Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, May 7, 2004
<http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=126&t=696&hl=&view=findpost&p=4498>.) Judyth Vary Baker, post to JFKresearch.com, November 2, 2002: ". . . I can prove every word i (sic) am writing here--- i (sic) can assure you that what we were doing was trying to create a biological weapon to get castro (sic) inn (sic) what would seem to be a natural death."
2. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (5:59 AM): "I am VERY upset that jack (sic) White has been posting a message to my high school classmates saying my story is 'bizarre' and asking their opinion, including the erroneous statement that I claimed to be a CIA agent--I NEVER EVER CLAIMED SUCH A THING." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 12, 2002: ". . . YOU SENT AN EMAIL (sic) MESSAGE . . . STATING THAT I SAID I WAS A CIA AGENT. THAT IS SOMETHING I HAVE N- E- V- E- R SAID!!!!" Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (6:43 AM): "I was introduced to people I suspected were working for the CIA. I was never, myself, 'recruited' to my knowledge. I did sign loyalty oaths---three of them." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): "When somebody first suggested i (sic) was CIA connected, I was shocked, it had not been that way in my experience. lee (sic) never said so in so many words." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 15, 2002: "Was it a CIA project? I am not certain even of that, i (sic) assume it because CIA people I now know were involved." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 9, 2003: "There has never been a claim that she was hired 'by the CIA.' You repeat this claim twice, totally without foundation. You also falsely suggest that Judyth claims the cancer project was a direct CIA project." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, October 28, 2001: "There is no claim that Judyth was a CIA employee." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, December 17, 2000: "You keep assuming CIA employment is claimed. On what basis?" In a JFKresearch.com post of November 2, 2002, Judyth describes herself as "an untraceable asset." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 20, 2002: "Please, I have been told I was a CIA asset, that my time and labor was used by the CIA. To me, that is working for the CIA, but not as a member of the CIA, and some work I did before New oleans (sic) was also under the table. I will be happy to modify the terminology if it is manifestly misleading people, never my intention."
3. Judyth Vary Baker, biographical blurb posted at Manatee High School alumni website. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sanitize.htm>:"I spoke crude conversational Russian by 1963, when I was introduced in New Orleans to Lee Harvey Oswald."
4. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "When Lee was ordered to move to New Orleans in April 1963, he met Judyth by accident (or maybe not) at the new post office."
5. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "When Lee was ordered to move to New Orleans in April 1963, he met Judyth by accident (or maybe not) at the new post office." In an e-mail of November 6, 2000, Judyth explains, "I npow (sic) suspect Lee was sent there to check on me b y (sic) ochsner (sic), but I never dreamed of it at the time!" In a statement posted by Wim Dankbaar to JFKresearch.com, November 7, 2002, Judyth states: "I now believe Lee was sent to check me out because I'd arrived two weeks early on invitation from Dr. Ochsner (though i (sic) did check into the 'Y' as he had asked me to)--school got out quicker than in New orleans (sic) because we were on the trimester schedule (I didn't want to face parents and friends because I'd had a recent miscarriage, which is why Robert asked me to marry him, so we could get birth control pills). I now believe that Ochsner sent Lee to check me out, see if I was okay, etc. because he would be able to recognize me (I looked strikingly like (h)is own wife). He never told me this, nor did Ochsner bring it up, but it is the only way i (sic) can account for the fact that Lee and I met April 26, a day after he had arrived in New Orleans, at this brand new post office."
6. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Lee Oswald, a CIA operative . . ." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 13, 2000: "I have a great deal of proof that Lee Oswald warked (sic) for the CIA and was involved, with me, in a get-Castro project." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 16, 2000: "In the end, history will have to accept that Lee Oswald was working for the CIA while in New Orleans, whatever else history wants to say about him. I provide sufficient evidence and inside knowledge to prove it."
7. Judyth Vary Baker, defunct website at Switchboard.com. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sboard.htm>: "When I knew Lee, he was an FBI informant. He also worked closely with persons associated or working for the CIA, though I don't know from which agency Lee himself had been 'borrowed,' for he told me he had been borrowed (---by the CIA?) and was not allowed to tell me what agency he came from." Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): "When somebody first suggested i (sic) was CIA connected, I was shocked, it had not been that way in my experience. lee (sic) never said so in so many words."
8. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy," alternate draft posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "There is a (poor) picture of her in the Warren Report standing next to Lee while he was leafleting. There is a resemblance between the girl in the photo and contemporaneous photos of Judyth. The dress pattern in the picture matches close-up photos of a dress Judyth wore in other photos in her possession." Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance," alternate draft provided to Robert Vernon, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Judyth is 90% certain that Warren Commission exhibit Pizzo 453-B, a photo of the scene, includes her standing near Lee. The picture is blurry, but there is a resemblance between the girl in the photo and contemporaneous photos of Judyth. The dress pattern in the picture matches close-up photos of a dress Judyth wore in other photos in her possession. The original film from which the still was made was recently sent by TV station WDSU, on which it aired, for archiving at the University of New Orleans. The last time we checked, it was still unarchived, in one of many unmarked boxes."
9. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, May 5 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?act=ST&f=126&t=696&hl=&view=findpost&p=4498>: ". . . I did manage to save enough to prove who I was and our affair. Not that there are photos of Lee and me together, none of that. We were both married and we knew we were in a clandestine operation." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "She has always said this, Dave."
10. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 3, 2003: "Jack Ruby--(Judyth) met (him) once, (he was) introduced as 'Sparky,' . . ." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Jack Ruby--(Judyth) met (him) once, (he was) introduced as 'Sparky,' (Judyth) didn't realize until 1999 that 'Sparky' was Jack Ruby."
11. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "While Judyth was in Lee's company, she met Jack Ruby twice, in May and June of 1963, once at Ferrie's apartment and once at The 500 Club, a Marcello hang-out."
12. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Lee came to believe his CIA handler, 'Mr. B.,' was actually Phillips." Judyth claims that in his final conversation with her, he instructed her to be sure to remember the name, "David Atlee Phillips." See Judyth Vary Baker, "Before the Silence Came: Lee's Last Telephone Calls," circulated draft of chapter for Deadly Alliance. Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/endofline.pdf>. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, June 12, 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=693&st=90>: ". . . (M)istakes can happen. Phillips allowed Lee to be seen (by Antonio Veciana Blanch). Lee reported some additional details of this meeting to me."
13. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions." Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "(Oswald's handler) Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B."
14. David Lifton, alt.assassination.jfk post, November 6, 2000, citing his telephone interview with Judyth Vary Baker, March 4, 2000. (Lifton: "How did he (Oswald) know his (Phillips's) name, by the way?" Judyth: "Oh, he met him.") "During the same 24 hour period," Lifton writes, "Judyth spoke with a friend of mine, and made the same statement. She was cross examined vigorously by my friend, and Judyth insisted that was the case."
15. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
16. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
17. Judyth Vary Baker, message posted to JFKresearch.com forum by Wim Dankbaar, November 7, 2002: "However, he met with a 'Mr. B' in Texas whom we both believed to be Phillips."
18. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: ". . . Lee and I speculated and concluded that Bishop and Phillips were possibly the same person, Lee seemed certaoin (sic) of it at the end."
19. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: "As you know, Lee told me he met a 'Bishop' in Dallas. While he did not say in an equation that 'Bishop' and 'Phillips' were the same person, I did understand he meant that both those persons were his handlers. The last time lee (sic) spoke to me, he implied they were possibly the same person."
20. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: ". . . Lee and I speculated and concluded that Bishop and Phillips were possibly the same person, Lee seemed certaoin (sic) of it at the end."
21. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 6, 2000: "At the end, Lee said to remember Phillips' name. I do not believe he even said Bishop and Phillips were the same people, EVEN THEN."
22. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, November 14, 2002 (7:56 AM): Oswald "said he wasn;t (sic) sure about David Atlee Phillips being the person who was responsible, but HE HAD OBTAINED THAT NAME. It had been heard once before in New Orleans at a meeting, the man's actual name, but no understanding of the role. And there were other names we thought were the same man, known to Lee as 'Mr. B.' Frank bender (sic) could have filled that name as well . . ."
23. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "While Lee had reason to believe the man he met in Dallas, introduced to him as 'Bishop' was actually 'Phillips' because he never met 'Phillips' it was always speculation, though based on strong suspicions."
24. Judyth Vary Baker, message posted to JFKresearch.com forum by Wim Dankbaar, November 7, 2002: "However, he met with a 'Mr. B' in Texas whom we both believed to be Phillips."
25. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B."
26. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "He told me never forget that David Atlee Phillips was the man who we thought of as in the chess game, we thought he was 'Bishop' and also 'Mr. B.' But I now believe that 'Mr. B' was Bender as bpoth (sic) Phillips and bender (sic) worked together at exactly this time, and sometimes we were amazed that 'Mr. B' or 'Bishop' (yes, I know it sounds bad that we also heard the name 'Bishop') seemed to be in two places at once sometimes. Now I believe it was because both men gave us the impression that they were the same man."
27. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "For instance, Lee mentioned a 'Mr. B.' When we heard the name 'Bishop' we wondered if this was the 'Mr. B' who had been mentioned by Dave ferrie (sic) and by Carlos Quiroga and some other Cubans such as Sergio A."
28. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "I was confused until almost the present by thinking that "Mr. B" might be "Bishop." Now i (sic) believe that person to be Frank bender (sic)."
29. Judyth Vary Baker, Internet forum post, June 12, 2004 <http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=693&st=90>: "But Phillips was in town at least once, as 'Mr. Benson'or (sic) 'Mr. Benton.' I can't remember which anymore."
30. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: Oswald's handler was "Mr. B, Mr. Bishop, or Benson or whatever, Benton," who Oswald also said was probably David Atlee Phillips. Judyth has elsewhere stated that "Mr. B" could be another person altogether: Gerry Droller, a.k.a. Frank Bender. See for example: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Mr. B may not have been Phillips. Another CIA figure, Frank Bender, one alias of Gerry Droller, was known inside the agency as Mr. B." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 12, 2000: "I was confused until almost the present by thinking that "Mr. B" might be "Bishop." Now i (sic) believe that person to be Frank bender (sic)."
31. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: Oswald's handler was "Mr. B, Mr. Bishop, or Benson or whatever, Benton," who Oswald also said was probably David Atlee Phillips.
32. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "He told me never forget that David Atlee Phillips was the man who we thought of as in the chess game, we thought he was 'Bishop' and also 'Mr. B.' But I now believe that 'Mr. B' was Bender as bpoth (sic) Phillips and bender (sic) worked together at exactly this time, and sometimes we were amazed that 'Mr. B' or 'Bishop' (yes, I know it sounds bad that we also heard the name 'Bishop') seemed to be in two places at once sometimes. Now I believe it was because both men gave us the impression that they were the same man." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "For instance, Lee mentioned a 'Mr. B.' When we heard the name 'Bishop' we wondered if this was the 'Mr. B' who had been mentioned by Dave ferrie (sic) and by Carlos Quiroga and some other Cubans such as Sergio A."
33. Black Op Radio, Episode 171, May 13, 2004, Part 1. Online at <http://www.blackopradio.com/black171a.ram>: "Yes, I was introduced once to Guy Banister." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Guy Banister--met him once, not introduced by name."
34. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 7, 2000: "I met Banister only twice."
35. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: ". . . ex-FBI man, now-CIA operative, Guy Banister . . ."
36. Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, September 13, 2003: "Dave, I never said Banister had anything to do with the CIA." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 5, 2004: "As for his (Banister's) CIA involvement, that remains uncertain among many people, not just Judyth. You've found one meaningless contradiction--congratulations."
37. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 11, 2004: "Inventing imaginary contradictions again, I see, Dave. Judyth SAW Clay Shaw twice. On ONE of those occasions, she MET him. As Howard noted, she didn't KNOW him--just introduced once. I hope reality isn't too complicated and confusing for you, Dave." Phone: Howard Platzman, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 9, 2000: "It was in June or so of last year that I first saw Judyth's rambling text. She reports on a call from (a man using the name) Lambert to Reily's and she says, matter of factly, that it was (Clay) Shaw. . . . In another part of her text, she recalls accompanying Lee, Shaw, and Ferrie to the airport, where they (not including her) took an overnight trip to Canada." Hotel trysts: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "At the end of August, Shaw paid for the last of several hotel trysts for Judyth and Lee. According to Judyth, Shaw felt sorry for them."
38. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Clay Shaw--Judyth met him once. No biggie."
39. Howard Platzman, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, June 19, 2000: "My witness (Judyth) knew Ferrie, not Shaw."
40. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Judyth personally met other plotters, including Banister, Shaw, and Marcello . . ." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, date unknown, posted to alt.assassination.jfk by Ihateliars1@yahoo.com, October 29, 2001: "It is who i (sic) knew and what they did and what we did that then comes into play: i (sic) was in the center of the effort in New Orleans to kill Castro, and my knowledge makes it clear what went on later, and why. I have also showed how close a relationship Ochsner and Shaw really had, closer than was realized . . ."
41. Judyth Vary Baker, JFKresearch.com post, February 14, 2003: "I have never said Shaw was a co-conspirator. I said Ochsner distanced himself from Shaw deliberately by replacing him at International House March 23, 1962, when he began the project. However (sic), Shaw had his ways to find out what Ochsner was up to, important to us. There's more, this is exhausting me. Many have seen the evidence linking Ochsner, i (sic) have given them a lot of leads."
42. Met with Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Judyth personally met other plotters, including Banister, Shaw, and Marcello . . ." Black Op Radio, Episode 171, May 13, 2004, Part 1. Online at <http://www.blackopradio.com/black171a.ram>: Judyth plays a portion of an audiotape recording with Anna Lewis Vincent, where Vincent describes a meeting between herself, her late husband David F. Lewis, Judyth, Oswald, Jack Ruby, and Marcello: "So we go to the 500 Club and we met there. There was me, Judy, David, Lee we met with, Carlos Marcellus (sic) and Jack Ruby." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, November 6, 2000: "I was in the poor excuse for a library out at the brand new university there when everything was military world war II temporary buildings and quonset (sic) huts and stuff, and blazing sun outside. . . . This was the same day Marcello came by out there, on the brand new grassy area and new sidewalk area there, with mafia, who were visiting from Chicago, in a black limo (usually Marcello didn;t (sic) go that fancy, at least, not that summer). He had a woman in the car with them give Lee and me each a martini -- from the limo. We threw the drinks out but kept the little tray and the two glasses." "That Little Thing": Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 22, 2000 (writing about herself in the third person): "If you have any witness out there who rememvers (sic) 'that little thing' as Carlos Marcello and others called her . . . now is the time to bring out what you know." Spared by Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 22, 2000 (writing about herself in the third person): "In the end, Lee Oswald was murdered for his part in penetrating the assassination ring he had joined in hopes of destroying. Judyth, liked by Marcello, was spared IF she would keep her mouth shut and withdraw from the medical community. Judyth complied." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, September 27, 2000: "Don't worry, I'm safe, because they respect Carlos Marcello's original order to leave me alone so long as I do not mention the names of anybody still alive, or too close to anybody alive, and i (sic) have not and will not. I would be the deadest meat in the world if I said everything i (sic) know." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Dave Reitzes, October 7, 2000: ". . . (O)ne of the things that saved me was Carlos' (sic) Marcello's fondness for me and my favorite girlfriend in New Orleans." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, November 7, 2000: "I was fortnate (sic) in that carlos (sic) marcello (sic), just as he did for Anna, was kind enough to protect me from harm. It was his personal word that I would not talk." Tabs picked up by Marcello: Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail to Terry Mauro, posted by Mauro to JFKresearch.com, December 29, 2002: "I ate with Lee downtown, we had free access to The Five Hundred Club, a free tab, had to pay nothing, same for Court of Two Sisters and a couple of other places run by Marcello's people, where we could come in as long as it wasn;t (sic) night-time and order anything we wanted, tab on Marcello." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 29, 2000: ". . . Lee liked to take me to places called 'Lee' just for a blast. That is why we also went out to thre (sic) House of lkee (sic) and I (sic) found out that critter was in tight with the mafia, because the meal was free(Marcello (sic) paid the tab wherever we went where the mob owned or part-owned a place." Judyth Vary Baker, e-mail, October 2, 2000: ". . . THESE WERE NIGHTCLUBS...let's see, Five Hundred Club, House of Lee (restaurant, only one), Court of Two (or was it three) Sisters, and hotel meals, almost all of them lunches and a few early dinners because we did this during the day. . . . (T)hey brought the tab over, and Lee scribbled something on it, but it was shown to us 'paid' at Five Hundred Club. Other places, the tab was picked up later when Lee gave them the bill. If Marcello was ever present in a place and we were also there, the couple of times that happened, he had the bill presented to lee (sic) and it was signed, paid off."
43. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 11, 2003: "Carlos Marcello--(Judyth has) never claimed to have spoken with him." Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, July 10, 2003: At most, Judyth describes "seeing Marcello in a public place in New Orleans . . ."
44. "Before the Silence Came: Lee's Last Telephone Calls," draft chapter from Judyth's manuscript, posted by Robert Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Lee himself knew that Richard Nagell, one of his doppelgangers, had purposely gotten himself arrested for fear of being set up as a patsy. Nagell carried Lee's Hidell name -- a name used by more than one person I had heard about----and other incriminating ID. Nagell let it be known that he refused to become a designated patsy. He may have thought Lee was the real thing, Lee told meC (sic) that perhaps Castro had commissioned Lee to kill the President. Having heard of some of the escape plans that Lee was trying to form in an attempt, of course, to get out of Dallas after he had done all he could (and not to kill, but to save, though Nagell didn;t (sic) know that), Richard Case Nagell, fearing he'd be set up in Lee's place, may have deliberately got himself arrested and out of the action."
45. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 12, 2003: "Citing Richard Case Nagell, he (John McAdams) assumes she is referring to Nagell when she only had a vague recollection of a 'Nagy or Nagell.' Many researchers will recognized (sic) the name Nagy as well, so it's hardly a given that she heard 'Nagell.'"
46. Mentor: "Judyth's Story," outline provided to Robert Vernon on December 23, 1999, posted by Vernon at alt.assassination.jfk, August 30, 2004: "Judyth had already achieved a reputation as a child prodigy in cancer research. Her mentor, Dr. Alton Ochsner, of the famed Ochsner Cancer Clinic (sic) in New Orleans . . ." The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "On top of that, he'd (Ochsner) been telling me what to do for a couple of years now, and was interested in everything I was doing." Worked for Ochsner: The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "In the spring of 1963 Judyth was invited to join Dr. Ochsner in New Orleans on a temporary assignment. It was an exciting offer for the young scientist. The Ochsner Clinic and its founder were world-renowned." Judyth states, "Dr. Alton Ochsner . . . said he needed me there and that he wanted me to work in the bone cancer lab with Dr. Mary Sherman." Later, according to Judyth, Ochsner was persuaded by Lee Oswald to use Judyth on a different, clandestine project involving the assassination of Fidel Castro. The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair, 2003 documentary, A & E Home Video: "Shortly after moving in, Judyth had a meeting with Alton Ochsner at this hospital (Charity Hospital of Louisiana), her first since arriving in New Orleans. She did not go alone." Judyth: "Lee accompanied me there and told me that he had to go in first to talk to Dr. Ochsner. This made me recognize that he had already had a prior association with Ochsner. When I went in Dr. Ochsner began to explain to me . . . about the project that he had been working on for over a year. And this clearly had to do with working with these deadly cancer strains that he knew I was well adept at handling. The idea was to try and get Castro ill, very ill, and eliminated through what seemed a natural cause, in this case cancer. . . . At any rate, at the end of the summer, he promised me that I would skip two years of school, go directly into medical school, at Tulane Medical School. Of course, how could I say no?" Miscellaneous references to Ochsner: Judyth Vary Baker (neworleans63@aol.com), post to alt.conspiracy.jfk and alt.assassination.jfk, June 3, 2002: "Dr. Ochsner met both me and Lee Oswald at Charity Hospital a couple of times. We went into a small room that was set aside, like many others there, to see patients." Judyth Vary Baker (neworleans63@aol.com), post to alt.conspiracy.jfk and alt.assassination.jfk, June 4, 2002: "Once I was asked to meet Dr. O. -- by myself -- at Tulane Medical Library. . . . I only met Dr. O. four or five times. . . . Anybody who thinks this man was a pleasant fellow who smiled and did surgery and somehow had all these important latinos (sic) in high places using him as their personal physician by some kind of luck -- who had Clint Murchison financing entire buildings and Mr. hunt (sic) sending him cadillacs (sic) or whatever---if you think this man was a benign sweetie, you did not know the man I knew. He was violently inclined. He had a terrible temper and several times on the telephone yelled at me and thrashed me verbally so hard that he made me cry."
47. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "Judyth DOESN'T 'claim' to have 'worked for' Alton Ochsner--there was no formal relationship there." See also Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, August 29, 2004: "She says that she worked on a secret project that (Ochsner) initiated--she worked for Ferrie, supervised by Dr. Mary Sherman--Ochsner had no direct involvement . . ."
48. Judyth Vary Baker with Howard Platzman, Ph.D, "Deadly Alliance: Outline of the Conspiracy." Online at <http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/alliance.pdf>: "Fearing he was a dead man if he tried to break with the conspirators at this point, he (Oswald) would join them, walking with eyes wide open into the patsy role."
49. Judyth Vary Baker, post to JFKresearch.com, December 31, 2002: " . . . (Oswald) knew he was being ste (sic) up but thought he would be killed. I do not think he thought he'd be made a patsy, and, as he thought he would be killed, and I don't think he thought he'd be proclaimed as the killer...this element may have shocked him."
50. Judyth Vary Baker, interview for Dutch media (http://www.omroep.nl), originally broadcast in streaming audio on April 23, 2003: "Oh, I knew what was going to happen. I was working at a lab where I had been placed making special chemicals for our project in Florida and they all got chairs out to watch the assassination on TV. . . . And I saw it happen on TV, and we had worked so hard to stop that from happening."
51. Martin Shackelford, alt.assassination.jfk post, September 29, 2003 (responding to David Lifton): "Her co-workers in Florida 'knew the assassination was going to happen?' Not true, David. They gathered to watch the coverage--AFTERWARDS. Once again, you got it totally wrong. But perhaps you're just not a good listener, David."
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
And another nice post from Judyth herself on the same thread correcting the claims made by David Reitzes
Judyth Baker
Oct 9 2004, 06:39 PM
Post #12
Experienced Member
Group: Members
Posts: 85
Joined: 27-March 04
Member No.: 606
RIGHTING THE WRONGS WRUNG FROM TRIVIALITIES BY MR. REITZES
Dave Reitzes has made statements which he believes points out inconsistencies in my testimony and narrative. I have made replies to these statements. Some are repeated over and over again because of the repetitive nature of Reitzes presentation of inconsistencies? -most of which will be seen to be nonsense.
If anyone thinks, after reading my replies, that Mr. Reitzes might have done well to have done a bit of research before posing these fugues of questions, I wholeheartedly agree, since most of his inconsistencies are based on a lack of research and insight rather than on any truly meaningful deviations from consistency, as will be shown, in ample detail, below.
Hopefully, this will be the final word concerning taking anything Mr. Reitzes writes seriously.
Judyth Vary Baker, written from Europe, October, 2004
RIGHTING THE WRONGS WRUNG FROM TRIVIALITIES BY MR. REITZES
REITZES BEGINS:
Judyth Vary Baker worked for the CIA on an anti-Castro assassination
project, and she can prove it. (1)
Judyth was never an employee or agent of the CIA, and never said she was.(2)
STATEMENT: I was used by Dr. Alton Ochsner in his get-Castro project. Was I, thereby, working for the CIA? As an asset, I suppose, but unwittingly. I was aware of CIA interest in all the anti-Castro activities going on in New Orleans. The city was a hotbed of CIA activity, too, and to contend that Ochsner had no connections whatsoever with the CIA at this time, when he was making almost weekly trips to Washington, D.C., was unthinkable to me. How much was personal effort and how much sponsored by the CIA, I do not know, but the relationships between Ochsner and anti-Castro government efforts was real.
Judyth was introduced to Lee Oswald one day in New Orleans. (3)
It was due to a series of events involving her relationship with Dr. Mary Sherman that Judyth came to meet Oswald. (4)
No one introduced Judyth and Oswald, and their meeting had nothing to do with Mary Sherman; Judyth and Oswald met purely by chance. (5)
Or maybe not. (6)
STATEMENT: I originally believed our meeting was accidental, but it might not have been, since Ochsner may have been concerned about my having arrived two weeks early, and the fact that I was a lone female in a rough town. Dr. Sherman was out of town, so I could not be helped by her. Since I resembled Marina, Lee might have been sent to meet me to help babysit me, for all I know. Or maybe not. Apparently Mr. Reitzes does not allow me to make any speculations. Why?
Oswald worked for the CIA on an anti-Castro assassination project (and others),and Judyth can prove it. (7)
Oswald may not have worked for the CIA after all. (8)
STATEMENT: Lee told me he had been borrowed by the CIA from another agency, which he refused to name. He had volunteered to come to New Orleans to work on several undercover projects, but they were not assassination-of-Castro projects. His concerns were anti-Castro projects, especially identifying pro-Castroites and to establish firm pro-Castro credentials for himself. He was also supposed to help make a training film, being very interested in photography and having some experience in that field. He became involved in my anti-Castro associated activities, which focused on a get-Castro assassination plot, in order to spend more time with me. There is no doubt in my mind that Dr. Ochsner, the force behind the get-Castro project in New Orleans, had CIA connections.
A photograph published in the Warren Commission Report shows Judyth
standing next to Oswald. (9)
CORRECTION: No, not standing next to Lee, but in the same general area as Lee - iF that person is me. The face is too blurry to be certain. The pavement sloped upward there, as I have proven with other photos, but I cannot prove this woman is me. Though have never been 100% certain the woman was me, I remember talking to the two girls shown in the footage under consideration. In any case, Lee simply happens to be nearby, and there is little, if any, interaction with the woman, beyond a smile in her direction as he approaches with flyers. I do not remember being filmed, but was warned that filming was taking place, and to leave at once, a warning which Lee gave to me. The fact is that Lee is coming closer to the woman in the footage under consideration, and it is possible that he was about to tell me to leave. The incident happened too many years ago for me to be more specific in these claims, as I have no proof that this woman is actually me, beyond my speculation that it may have been me, as I had two dresses similar or exactly the same as the dress worn by the lady in question, and have photos of one of those dresses showing its close similarity to the dress in the footage.
There are no photographs depicting both Judyth and Oswald, and Judyth has never claimed otherwise. (10)
STATEMENT: There are none now in existence.
Judyth was free to carry on an affair with Oswald and work on the anti-Castro plot because the conspirators had arranged to get her husband, Robert Baker, a job that required his prolonged absence from home. (11)
Robert Baker got a job that required his prolonged absence from home
because he himself had requested such a position. The conspirators had nothing to do with his job. (12)
Well, the conspirators MIGHT have had something to do with Robert Baker's job. (13)
The conspirators kept Robert Baker away from home for prolonged periods, but only so long as he let them, which greatly upset Judyth. (14)
STATEMENT: So far as I am aware, this was the best explanation for
Robert's being hired by an oil company and being kept offshore so many weeks, mostly incommunicado. BUT - I recently read the back of a letter showing that Robert himself requested an out-of-town field work job, even though he knew I would be left alone in New Orleans if he accepted such a position. It was hard for me, for a long time, to believe Robert would deliberately request a job out of town as a newlywed, and I did try to make an excuse or two, that perhaps somebody such as Ochsner, who had friends in the oil industry such as Clint Murchison, arranged to keep Robert and me separated from each other. Dr. Ochsner definitely was upset that I was suddenly and unexpectedly married, and hoped I would get a divorce ASAP. So I did wonder at various times, until my recent review of the back of one of Robert's letters, if there had been some kind of planned attempt to separate us. Obviously, not! Mr. Reitzes does not give me the opportunity to speculate about this, but tries to make my concerns look inconsistent. Why does he do this?
Judyth met Jack Ruby only once. (15)
Judyth met Jack Ruby twice. (16)
STATEMENT: I met Jack Ruby once, personally, for a significant period of time. I also saw Jack Ruby with Carlos Marcello and others, at a later date, at the 500 Club, and was in the same group as Jack Ruby while walking toward Clay Shaw's residence. However, there was no real interaction between Jack Ruby and me, so I do not count it as a true 'meeting.' Some people do count it as a 'meeting' because he did notice my presence, but I do not.
David Atlee Phillips was one of Oswald's CIA handlers. (17)
David Atlee Phillips may not have been one of Oswald's CIA handlers. (18)
Oswald knew Phillips by name. (19)
Oswald did not know Phillips by name. (20)
STATEMENT: Lee Oswald heard the name ' Phillips' mentioned in the context of 'Bishop' during a meeting held on Reily premises. Lee told me when he returned to the car. I had heard the names at some point, but not in context with each other.
....
ALL THE STATEMENTS (21-37) NUMBERED 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, AND 37 , are intended, I suppose, by Reitzes to show confusion, and indeed, they should show confusion, for Lee and I had no firm idea of the real name of Lee's handler. Is this some kind of crime?
Oswald knew his handler as "Bishop." (21)
Oswald did not know his handler as "Bishop." (22)
"Bishop" was Phillips. (23)
"Bishop" and Phillips may have been two different people. (24)
Oswald said that Phillips was "Bishop." (25)
Oswald never said that Phillips was "Bishop." (26)
Oswald knew his handler as "Mr. B." (27)
Oswald did not know his handler as "Mr. B." (28)
"Mr. B" was Phillips. (29)
"Mr. B" may not have been Phillips. (30)
"Mr. B" may have been two different people, one of whom may have been
Phillips. (31)
"Mr. B" was also "Bishop." (32)
"Mr. B" may not have been "Bishop." (33)
Phillips was known as "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton." (34)
"Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" may have been somebody else. (35)
"Mr. B," "Mr. Bishop," and "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" were all the same person. (36)
"Mr. B," "Mr. Bishop," and "Mr. Benson" or "Mr. Benton" may have been at least two different people. (37)
Judyth (or possibly Oswald and Judyth both) overheard someone at the Reily company say that Phillips was "Bishop." (38)
It was Oswald, not Judyth, who overheard someone at the Reily company say that Phillips was "Bishop"; Judyth was waiting in a car outside. (39)
Judyth met Guy Banister just once. (40)
Judyth met Guy Banister twice. (41)
STATEMENT: I met Guy Banister on only one occasion, when I posed as Lee's wife and was introduced to him. I saw him later at some little distance from me on a second occasion where I know he saw me as well, in his building.
Guy Banister was CIA. (42)
Guy Banister was not CIA, and Judyth never said he was. (43)
STATEMENT: Guy Banister had connections with the CIA. I have speculated, based on what I was told, that he was working in cooperation with the CIA and the FBI.
Judyth was introduced to Clay Shaw on one occasion, saw him from a
distance on another, and spoke with him once on the phone. Shaw paid for some of her hotel trysts with Oswald. (44)
Judyth simply saw Clay Shaw on two occasions. (45)
Judyth simply met Clay Shaw one time. (46)
Judyth did not know Clay Shaw. (47)
STATEMENT: I was introduced briefly to Clay Shaw once, and shook his hand. I later recognized him with others at The 500 Club, and Lee and I followed his group to his house, but did not enter there. Lee did know Clay Shaw. I do not consider this 'knowing' Clay Shaw. I was once introduced briefly to George W. Bush once, and shook his hand. I later recognized HIM at a Houston-area political meeting I covered as a reporter. That doesn't mean I know George W. Bush, even though we lived in the same city for almost two decades.
Judyth knew Carlos Marcello, who affectionately referred to her as "That Little Thing." She and Oswald met with him personally, he picked up the tab for many of their dinners out, and it was due to his influence that she was never murdered by the conspirators who killed John F. Kennedy. (48)
STATEMENT: I never 'knew' Carlos Marcello - in fact, I barely met him in a series of very brief encounters. Lee and I were confronted by Marcello and some of his friends and at least one lawyer while walking under the Colonnades at St. Louis Cathedral. Marcello was at first upset because I did not acknowledge his gesture of 'tipping' his face toward me as a polite gesture as we passed each other there. Then he laughed when he realized I hadn't recognized him at all. After he picked up our tab at The 500 Club once, every time we came in there after that, it was free. So were several other places we went to, after that. That's all I know.
Judyth did not know Carlos Marcello, and she has never claimed that she did.(49)
STATEMENT: Reitzes makes mountains out of thimblefuls. I met Marcello. Did I know him? Did you ever shake the hand of somebody famous? Did you know them personally?
Oswald discussed Richard Case Nagell with Judyth in some detail, informing her he knew that Nagell, whom he referred to as one of his
"doppelgangers," "had purposely gotten himself arrested for fear of being set up as a patsy." (50)
Oswald may have never discussed Nagell with Judyth, and anyone who thinks Judyth has referred to Richard Case Nagell in her writings is only making an assumption. (51)
STATEMENT: I only saw the name 'Nagell' and never heard the other part of the name. I assume Richard Case Nagell and 'Nagell' are the same person. Lee told me he shared information with this man and that both of them were in the same 'project' together. Other of my statements were made based on the name 'Hidell' which Lee mentioned in relation to Nagell as a name they shared in the project. I have made statements of speculation based on this basic knowledge. I also remember the word 'doppelganger' as used by Lee when describing his relationship with Nagell but that's about all I can remember. Lee knew that Nagell had been arrested. He probably told me this during one of our telephone conversations.
Judyth's mentor was famed surgeon and humanitarian Dr. Alton Ochsner. For a time she worked for Ochsner. (52)
Judyth never worked for Alton Ochsner and never claimed to. They had no formal relationship. (53)
STATEMENT: I never worked DIRECTLY for Dr. Alton Ochsner. I have never claimed to. Dr. Ochsner mentored me in my cancer research educational progress between 1961 and 1963, as he had done for thousands of other medical students, though for very few pre-meds, and even fewer females. I was promised a summer internship with Dr. Mary Sherman, Ochsner's only female lab director, where he said I would feel more comfortable, and Dr. Ochsner did initially arrange those plans for me. He also promised to obtain an early admittance into medical school at Tulane for me (I was only a college sophomore and would thus skip two years) in the fall of 1963.
Clay Shaw was closely involved in the anti-Castro plot with Ochsner and the others. (54)
Clay Shaw was not closely involved in the anti-Castro plot with Ochsner and the others. (55)
STATEMENT: I do not know the full extent of Clay Shaw's involvement in the Ochsner-directed plot, though he knew of it and condoned it and cooperated in some aspects, such as loaning the Cadillac, which he was himself required to drive in case of an accident, for the 'official car' look needed to enter the prisoner convoy coming from Angola. That he was involved to some degree is true.
The plan was to inject Castro with deadly cancer cells and let him die a "natural" death from cancer. (56)
The plan was to inject Castro with deadly cancer cells so it would APPEAR he died a natural death from cancer. (57)
STATEMENT: The plan was to inject Castro with deadly cancer cells so it would APPEAR he died a natural death from cancer. Of course it would be described as a 'natural' death, as even today, uninformed people do not believe that death from cancer can be caused by specialized cancer injections.
The plan was to kill Castro with a combination of cancer injections and X-ray radiation. (58)
STATEMENT: Over-simplified, but basically, this was the plan.
The plan was to kill Castro with a combination of cancer injections, X-ray radiation, and chemotherapy. (59)
STATEMENT: Chemotherapy might have been initiated at some point by
Castro's doctors. It would do little or no good, if the fast-acting cancer 'took' as expected.
The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that
could knock out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material - scraped from the kidneys of sick monkeys - was, in fact, the AIDS virus. (60)
The serum in which the cancer cells were placed included a virus that
could knock out the immune system, thus enhancing the strength of the already powerful cancer cells. This material - scraped from the kidneys of sick monkeys - was, in fact, Simian Monkey Virus 40 (SV-40), not the AIDS virus. (61)
STATEMENT: Read the book. The matter is too complex to be explained by Mr. Reitzes, who is relying on a portion of an incomplete summary of the process written by somebody else.
Judyth knows first-hand "what really happened" during Oswald's alleged trip to Clinton, Louisiana, because she was there. (62)
STATEMENT: Lee Oswald and I together made a trip to and from Jackson and its nearby mental hospital within 72 hours AFTER Lee's trip to Clinton and then to Jackson's mental hospital in the company of Dave Ferrie, Clay Shaw, and a hospital aide. These were two distinct trips. Indeed, people have tried to conflate these two distinct trips into one, thereby providing 'arguments' that the testimonies of witnesses who saw Lee Oswald with a woman in an old, battered car AND the testimonies of groups of witnesses who saw Lee Oswald with Shaw and Dave Ferrie in a black Cadillac could not BOTH be correct. In fact, two distinct and separate trips WERE involved, and there is No conflict when all facts are accounted for. The errors in people's heads came via trying to make a single, three-day trip, a situation in which the highly busy Clay Shaw could not, of course, have participated. However, Shaw was able to take off part of ONE day. Please read my book for more information.
Judyth knows only second-hand what happened in Clinton, because she wasn't there. (63)
STATEMENT: Lee told me what happened during the trip to Clinton and from there to Jackson's mental hospital.
Oswald, Dave Ferrie, and Clay Shaw were in Clinton, Louisiana, on
(probably) August 23, 1963. (64)
CORRECTION: This was my first estimated date, when asked to give a
reasonable date-- and at first I just guessed. But there were problems with it, mainly because I remembered leaving very soon after that date for Florida, and August 23rd was simply too early to be the correct date. We are talking about a date from thirty-five years earlier that I was trying to recall. When I finally looked at various records in my possession, which I reviewed with Dr. Platzman, Irealized the date had to be at least a week later. When I finally looked up the date of the march on Washington, I then knew I was about a week off in my original estimated date.
Oswald, Dave Ferrie, and Clay Shaw were in Clinton, Louisiana, on August 29, 1963. The date is easily determined because it was the same day Martin Luther King, Jr., led his famous march on Washington, D.C. (65)
CORRECTION: When first trying to remember the date, I was trying to rely on letters and checks in my possession. The date was right after Martin Luther King's famous march, but I had forgotten the date of the march. Once I got that date, I was able to correct the earlier estimated date.
Oswald, Dave Ferrie, and Clay Shaw were in Clinton, Louisiana, awaiting the arrival of a prisoner from Angola Penitentiary. The prisoner would be taken to the mental hospital in Jackson and serve as an unwitting "guinea pig" for deadly injections. (66)
CORRECTION: The wait in Clinton was for a telephone call, not for a
prisoner. The statement should read "Lee Oswald, Dave Ferrie, Clay Shaw, and a hospital employee were in Clinton, Louisiana, awaiting a telephone call. The call would inform them when and where to join a convoy bringing (supposedly) one prisoner with terminal cancer or other terminal illness from Angola Prison to the mental hospital in Jackson, there to serve as a witting, not unwitting, "guinea pig" for deadly injections."
There was actually a whole convoy of "guinea pigs" coming from Angola.(67)
STATEMENT: Ultimately, the number of prisoners actually used was unknown to us. We suspected more than one prisoner was involved because of the size of the convoy and the delay that occurred necessitating the long wait in Clinton.
Judyth and Oswald had no idea any prisoners would be used as unwitting "guinea pigs," and therefore bore no responsibility for any prisoners who were murdered in this fashion. (68)
STATEMENT: Originally, we were told that only one prisoner with a terminal cancer or other terminal illness would be used as a witting volunteer.
Judyth and Oswald knew full well that prisoners would be used as unwitting "guinea pigs," and were heartsick over the plan. (69)
CORRECTION: We learned, too late, that one or more prisoners being used for the testing were, in fact, not suffering from terminal cancer or another terminal disease, but, instead, had good health. This was sickening to us. I did write an objection, which caused Ochsner to cut me off from any further association with him for the rest of our lives. It also made it impossible for me to use him or any of his associates, who had been my supporters, as references. This meant the end of my plans for medical school.
When Oswald applied for his Mexican tourist visa in 1963, he listed his religion as "Catholic," because Judyth and Oswald intended to later get married in Mexico as Catholics, with the aid of a corrupt priest. (70)
STATEMENT: This was the true reason for Lee Oswald's decision to begin placing 'Catholic' on documents that would be viewed in Mexico, something he had never done before. In fact, Lee Oswald was an atheist or, more correctly, a strong agnostic.
When Oswald applied for his Mexican tourist visa in 1963, he listed his religion as "Catholic," because, while he was an atheist, listing his religion as "atheist" "would have looked commie-suspicious"; so, as his friends Judyth Baker and David Ferrie were Catholics, he listed his religion as "Catholic." Simple as that. (71)
CORRECTION: This was the reason Lee Oswald was prepared to give in case the question was raised by his handlers or others. Of course he wouldn't tell an outsider that he planned on marrying in Mexico.
Oswald knew in advance about the assassination and, in an attempt to
infiltrate and stop it, walked with eyes wide open into the "patsy" role. (72)
STATEMENT: Lee Oswald knew in advance about the assassination plans
because he had already successfully infiltrated the ring. He was aware of the danger, and knew that by continuing on his course, he might forfeit his life. He also believed he was already in too deep to back out, but he continued to make contingency plans for escape, if possible.
Oswald did not know he was slated to be the "patsy." (73)
CORRECTION: Lee did not think he would escape alive. He was uncertain if he was slated to be a patsy or was just one of several potential patsies. In fact, he was uncertain as to the actual location of the planned hit on Kennedy. He believed that several possible locations had been pre-selected. He personally believed the hit would probably be at the Trade Mart, but he also described several other possible locations. He did believe Kennedy would be killed either in Dallas or at LBJ's private airstrip.
If Oswald escaped Dallas alive, he and Judyth had planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun, Mexico, and get married. (It was subsequently pointed out by David Lifton and Robert Chapman that Cancun was an uninhabited jungle in 1963; the resort city was conceived years later.) (74)
Judyth NEVER said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by David Lifton.(75)
Judyth NEVER said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by David Lifton and John McAdams. (76)
Judyth NEVER said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This is a malicious fabrication by Dave Reitzes. (77)
STATEMENT: I NEVER said that Lee and I planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun, and then get married. I have repeatedly corrected such mis-statements for several years now. Anyone who continues to say I said such a thing is in error.
Judyth NEVER said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This was erroneously inserted into her manuscript by co-author Howard Platzman. (78)
CORRECTION: The Cancun matter was an insertion by my literary agent that was missed by Dr.Platzman. He took the blame for allowing it to remain in the manuscript. But it was my fault, too. A section of dialogue that I wrote, and take responsibility for, includes several phrases that I do not, however, remember writing as they are now shown on the internet. Lee indeed said we would meet in a fine hotel, but his tone of voice was so full of irony I didn't know if he was joking. He never said we would meet in Cancun. Typos and errors will happen. That we would meet in an area NEAR present-day Cancun is what was always meant, and if I typed Cancun instead, God forgive me, as Reitzes won't, even though that section was clearly described as still in the process of being edited when it was sent a very few for
comments.
Judyth NEVER said that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in Cancun! This was erroneously inserted into her manuscript by her former agent, Peter Cox. (79)
COMMENT: This is correct.
Okay, Judyth said it after all. (80)
But she didn't MEAN it. She only meant Cancun as a rough geographical
indicator of where the planned meeting-place actually had been. (81)
CORRECTION: HOW does one describe a general area on a present-day map, near Cancun, without mentioning Cancun? I was asked to point out the approximate place where Lee and I planned to meet. I had described it originally merely as in Mexico. Asked for more detail, I described it as an extremely remote and wild area. My suitcase was packed with survival equipment! I described the area where I was going as a place I'd be afraid to go to, except I knew Lee would be there. Does that sound like a pleasure resort?
What she meant was that she and Oswald planned to meet in a fine hotel in the rustic village of Kankun, Mexico. (82)
CORRECTION: We planned to meet! The rest of this statement is a twisted version of my words, drawn out beyond reason or belief, for the sake of specious argument.
Except maybe "fine hotel" was a joke on Oswald's part. (83)
Yes, "fine hotel" was definitely a joke on Oswald's part. (84)
CORRECTION: Since Lee often made wry jokes, I had no way of knowing if he was serious or not about our staying in a 'fine hotel.' It made absolutely no difference to me. Was it 'definitely' a joke? I don't know and never did.
Nevertheless, she and Oswald might have ended up staying in a fine hotel just the same. (85)
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Chichen Itza, Mexico -- 125 miles from present-day Cancun. (86)
CORRECTION: We planned to meet NEAR Chichen Itza, not IN Chichen Itza.
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Merida, Mexico - 200 miles from present-day Cancun. (87)
CORRECTION: Lee never mentioned the name of this city as a meeting place. He spoke of Merida in other contexts. I decided this must have been the 'city' in the Yucatan where we hoped to marry - on my own, as he mentioned we would be flying from the city where we would marry on the Cayman islands. When, later, I learned that flights from Merida to the Cayman Islands were known to occur, I then assumed the city was Merida.
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Belize, Mexico - 350 miles from present-day Cancun. (Note: There was no Belize in 1963; it was called British Honduras until years later.) (88)
CORRECTION: At one point in our plans, we planned to meet near present-day Belize. I have no idea how to describe the location without using the word Belize. Do you? I have no what the location was called in 1963. It was the first place we were interested in while making our plans. We had guessed that this was the secret site where the film NIGHT OF THE IGUANA had been made, and thought there might be some vestige of civilization remaining behind after the film had been shot. The place had been described in the newspapers as spectacularly romantic. Later, we changed the meeting place nearer to where the ruins of Chichen Itza were located.
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to meet in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico - well over a thousand miles from present-day Cancun. (89)
CORRECTION: Lee and I changed our proposed meeting place several times as the situation developed. For example, the murder of Alexander Rorke, a pilot Lee trusted, changed the proposed meeting place. Our plans were not set in stone.
Judyth and Oswald actually planned to marry in the Cayman Islands of the Caribbean; Cancun was just a stopover. (90)
CORRECTION: Judyth and Lee planned to both divorce and then marry - in Mexico. Exploration of ancient Mayan ruins and a visit to a large city in the Yucatan were additional possible plans. After marriage, final destination was probably going to be the Cayman Islands.
On November 22, 1963, Judyth and a number of her co-workers set up chairs and watched the assassination of John F. Kennedy on television. (91)
CORRECTION: On November 22, Judyth observed her boss and several others bring in stools to watch the TV at noon. They exhibited what in her mind was undue interest, keeping the TV on past lunchtime, which was an hour ahead of Dallas time. Several chairs already in the lab were also used. Judyth didn't help set up anything. This is yet another misrepresentation.
Judyth and her co-workers absolutely did not watch the assassination of John F. Kennedy on television. (92)
STATEMENT: The assassination itself was never televised. The events of the day of the assassination happened to have been observed on TV by Judyth and others at PenChem. Removal of a phrase can change the meaning of a sentence.
Oswald's friend George De Mohrenschildt knew about the assassination ahead of time, and had agreed to help take care of Oswald's wife and children afterwards. (93)
CORRECTION: George DeMohrenschildt was asked by Lee to help Marina and his children in case something happened to him.
George De Mohrenschildt had nothing to do with the assassination, and
Judyth never said he did. (94)
STATEMENT: I have only guessed at the extent of George's knowledge, since Lee said he had confided in him; I was asked my opinion and gave it.
Judyth has proof that Oswald was innocent of John F. Kennedy's assassination; she presented it to filmmaker Nigel Turner and he filmed it for his documentary, The Men Who Killed Kennedy: The Love Affair. (95)
CORRECTION: I, myself, provide witness that Lee Oswald was innocent of John F. Kennedy's assassination, since he expressed to me his potent grief and anger over the plot. I presented proof of having known Lee Oswald well enough that it was reasonable to assume that he might have confided these matters to me. In fact, he did so.
Beyond her word, Judyth has no evidence regarding anything related to John F. Kennedy's assassination. (96)
CORRECTION: read the book.
This post has been edited by Judyth Baker: Oct 9 2004, 06:41 PM
--------------------
Biography: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=1675
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
Judyth replies to Barb and to Jack about her "provisional political asylum"
Barb diverts focus. Her assignment is to 'prove' that I have lied ever since age fifteen.
Over a perod of a decade, Barb has never directly contacted me. Barb never asked to see my evidence. Barb never met me. Barb never spoke to me on the telephone.
But she is always alert to divert. Obsessed. Dedicated. Determined to discredit JVB.
Why?
1) it diverts people from the leads and information I am trying to provide.
2) IT STOPS DISCUSSION OF THE LEADS.
===What Barb wrote, and my reply====
"Martin had an unfortunate habit of running with things on Judyth's say so without checking them out. It cost him dearly."
REPLY: I told Martin what was really happening behind the scenes. Much of that was not in the official records. I described myself as being PROTECTED IN THE EU POLITICAL ASYLUM SYSTEMS. Sometimes I said protected in the system, sometimes I said protected in political asylum. It was not intended to become a lawyer's brief for Barb to pick apart, implying that I claimed I had been GRANTED same. She took the term "political asylum" and ran with it, never checking with me to see if I would have agreed with its use in that manner.
AS FOR BARB, SHE IS THE ONE WHO DID NOT DO HER HOMEWORK.
LET'S DO SOME HOMEWORK RIGHT NOW:
FIRST, I QUOTE FROM ANOTHER ASYLUM SEEKER (NOT ME):
"The first of these was to determine to which country I should go.
It could not be the United States, for this would embarrass Washington...
The immigration officers were most courteous at every point, but they
questioned me with meticulous care. Our interview required more than three hours.
Political asylum in Sweden requires formal approval at the cabinet level, hence
about one month was required to complete the certification...." (ref: A TASTE OF FREEDOM)
BARB IMPLIES I WAS TURNED DOWN BECAUSE I WAS NOT IN ANY DANGER.
HERE IS ANOTHER BIT OF HOMEWORK:
![[Image: est1cj.jpg]](http://i45.tinypic.com/est1cj.jpg)
JUST A FEW MORE (THERE ARE MANY EXAMPLES):
1) A woman threatened to set herself on fire outside the County Court in central Gothenburg on Friday after she had her asylum application rejected....
2) United Nation refugee agency UNHCR has criticized Sweden's decision to deport Afghan refugees to Kabul even if they have no social or family ties in the capital city...
3) Recent decisions by Sweden to send refugees back to Baghdad and other war-ravaged areas have tarnished its reputation for welcoming victims of conflict, critics say...
4) A couple from Turkey seeking asylum in Sweden threatened to set themselves on fire in the Board of Migration's offices in Kiruna on Monday. After all-day negotiations they gave themselves up.
IT IS NOT THAT EASY TO GET POLITICAL ASYLUM IN SWEDEN. ONE IN A WHEELCHAIR WAS SENT BACK TO IRAQ, THOUGH HE HAD BEEN SHOT IN AN ATTEMPT TO KILL HIM, AND WAS PARALYZED BY THAT SHOT. A HOMOSEXUAL WAS SENT BACK TO IRAN WHERE HE WAS SURELY EXECUTED.
1) Dozens of people come daily to Sweden, seeking political asylum
2) Up to half are deported IMMEDIATELY and never enter the system
Why wasn't I immediately deported?
What people typically get deported immediately, before entering the system?
a) people from free countries, such as the United States
B) anyone suspected of trying to use the system for any other means except the need for self-protection
c) they must not come directly from any other Schengen Treaty country-.
NOTE: Most EU countries, including Hungary--are Schengen.
I CAME FROM HUNGARY AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMMEDIATELY DEPORTED TO THE HUNGARIAN POLITICAL ASYLUM SYSTEM.
I WAS NOT.
question: Since I came from Hungary, a Schengen country. WHY WASN'T I MMEDIATELTY DEPORTED BACK TO HUNGARY, TO HAVE THEM HANDLE MY REQUEST, SAVING SWEDEN A LOT OF MONEY AND INVESTIGATION TIME?
answer: I CAME WITH SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE THAT MY LIFE WAS IN DANGER IN HUNGARY.
question: WHY WAS I NOT THEREFORE IMMEDIATELY DEPORTED TO MY HOME COUNTRY, THE UNITED STATES?
answer: I CAME WITH SUFFICIENT EVIDENCE THAT MY LIFE WAS IN DANGER IN THE UNITED STATES.
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?
1) YOU ARE PLACED IN A LARGE PROCESSING BUILDING WITH DOZENS OF OTHERS, TYPICALLY FOR ONE OR TWO DAYS. In my case, so anxious were they, because I was an American, that I stayed there five days. I was then moved to a small town.
2) IF ACCEPTED INTO THE SYSTEM, YOU ARE THEN MOVED FROM THE RECEIVING COMPOUND INTO A SMALL, REMOTE TOWN AND GIVEN ALL YOU NEED, WHILE INVESTIGATIONS CONTINUE. THIS IS PROVISIONAL POLITICAL ASYLUM. THE PROVISIONS ARE: DEPENDING ON THE FIRST JUDGMENT IN YOUR CASE. YOU WILL STILL HAVE TWO EXTRA CHANCES TO APPEAL IF TURNED DOWN THE FIRST TIME.
BARB SAYS THERE IS NO PROVISIONAL ASYLUM IN SWEDEN.
BUT IF YOU PLUG IN "PROVISIONAL POLITICAL ASYLUM" ...BESIDES MY OWN, ON MY
SPACE...NOTE A FEW MORE FROM OTHER EU POLITICAL ASYLUM COUNTRIES:
MySpace Video - Suzi Q Service Dog 's Video Channel & VideoClips
<http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&ContributorID=35424589>
![[Image: 2dtby1u.jpg]](http://i49.tinypic.com/2dtby1u.jpg)
![[Image: 2aamyas.jpg]](http://i48.tinypic.com/2aamyas.jpg)
PROVISIONAL POLITICAL ASYLUM MEANS YOU ARE PROTECTED AND HELPED WHILE THEY
LOOK INTO YOUR CASE TO SEE IF YOU CAN STAY PERMANENTLY. ATTACHED IS
MY 'FUNDS' CARD TO WHICH FUNDS ARE ADDED...USED AT THE BANK TO GET MONEY TO
LIVE ON...BUT OF COURSE, NO PERCENTAGE IS CHARGED...ALSO USED AS ID IN THE
SYSTEM.
NOTE: AT THIS TIME, BARB AND MCADAMS' PEOPLE WERE ACCUSING ME OF BEING AN
ILLEGAL ALIEN HIDING IN SWEDEN.
BARB FAILED TO MENTION THAT.
THIS IS WHY MARTIN AND PAMELA BROUGHT OUT THE INFORMATION.
![[Image: 24n0hky.jpg]](http://i46.tinypic.com/24n0hky.jpg)
YOU ARE NOT LOCKED UP. YOU GET LIVING QUARTERS, A FUNDS CARD, ETC. I HAVE
ATTACHED MINE. NOTE THE EXPIRATION DATE IS FAR BEYOND ONE MONTH. IT WAS
GOOD UNTIL JULY, 2008. I ENTERED THE SYSTEM SEPTEMBER, 2007.
result: I was not immediately deported back to Hungary.
I was not immediately deported back to the United States.
They promised to give me refuge, as they looked into the situation
more deeply. It is commonly called "provisional political asylum".
I was assigned a lawyer.
I was advised that because I was from the US, could never get
permanent political asylum.
The letter Barb refers to was an appointment letter to find out
when it would be possible for me to leave. I had already been there nine
months. I told them I needed another few weeks...my family had secured me
safe havens and we were going through paperwork.
They gave me the extra weeks.
I did not return to the US. I was never required to do so.
Furthermore, I am a welcome guest in Sweden and spent 49% of my time in that
country in a house my son purchased for my use there. Why would my family
do that, unless absolutely necessary?
I repeat: The entire effort had been cooperative, between me and the system,
to keep me as long as possible until I could get family and friends to
arrange safe places for me to live, as there was never a chance that I, a
non-combatant, age 65 at that time, and a 'free country' US citizen, could
stay 'forever'.
Barb DOES NOT KNOW THE SYSTEM. But she thinks she does and
misreports it to the world.
SHE SAYS AFTER ONE MONTH I WAS ORDERED TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY.
response:
This is true. What Barb fails to mention is that this was a routine order.
I was urged to publicize my case so that an appeal I was advised to make, to
buy me more time, would be taken seriously and would not be immediately
rejected. Such appeals do not always languish for months, as Barb has
insinuated elsewhere. A second appeal can be rejected at once.
What happened next?
1) I was given TV coverage and made an appeal to be allowed to stay in the
country. It was broadcast in Sweden on a TV station that is watched usually
only by Swedes. The appeal was then made by my assigned lawyer, and I was
asked how much time I needed. I told them until May 15. It turned out I'd
need even more time....they eventually gave me two extra months after May
15.... but had to call me in by June to officially ask me how it was all
going. That official 'letter' was to tell me I had to leave the country. I
came into the office a few weeks later and was asked how much more time
I needed. I told them I needed three more weeks. I got it.
When the official letter came, I had already been in Sweden nine months.
Barb, cuts months off in her own version. I left Sweden after ten-and-a-half
months. I was told that I was first American woman in decades to stay even
that long under the Swedish political asylum system.
I never deported or ordered to return to America. Instead, an apartment in a
non-EU nation was arranged for me by my family and children. In addition,
my son purchased a house for me in Sweeden in a very remote area. I had made
many friends in Sweden by that time, who have helped me and who call every
day to make sure I am still safe. They and my family have made great
sacrifices for my safety. It is hard to write today because my best friend
has died and I am overwhelmed with grief.
2) After the appeal was made, I was moved to a new town because my postbox
and door were both marked, and witnesses observed that I was followed and
photographed by foreigners, not Swedes. The witnesses are sensitive to
outsiders because we were all in political asylum seekers, all of us hoping
to get positives, not negatives.
They all knew I could never get a positive.
We existed under "Provisional political asylum" and were taken care of.
The Swedes not only moved me, they then gave me a fake name to use for
mail to protect me.
That did not stop Barb, McAdams, and company from hunting me down, once
they knew I was there.
By the way, BARB & CO found that obscure 4-minute TV broadcast in Swedish.
HOW? NOBODY knew a thing about it, except the Swedes...it was all in
Swedish. I was exhausted and had been terrorized by threats. I was still
walking with a cane due to an assault that occurred in the US earlier in the
year (not related to my circumstances, it was a student on drugs who hurt me
when I tried to stop her from stealing a book).
[quote name='Jack White' post='185902' date='Mar 7 2010, 06:11 AM']
Does "provisional asylum" mean the "protection of a foreign government"?
If so, there ought to be some official documentation available.
Is she no longer under "Dankbaar asylum" in Amsterdam? What happened
to her LHO Museum there?
Why does she refuse to accept the massive 12 year documentation of John
Armstrong?[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
Continuing with Barb's remarks (and more for Jack will be coming):
"The service to appear as well as the entire appeal denial docs has been
posted on the moderated group."
answer: So what? from the beginning, I was told that I could never, as a US
citizen, stay permanently. The kind Swedes let me stay ten-and-a-half
months, until my family and friends could provide safe havens for me. Try
to find ANY other American woman who was allowed into the system.
BARB GOES ON:
Martin posted the notice to appear and he and Judyth claimed it as proof she
had asylum in Sweden.
answer: Nit-picking.
Martin posted the letter to prove I had been accepted into the Swedish
political asylum SYSTEM and was NOT an illegal alien, as Barb and others
were accusing me.
BARB DOESN'T TELL YOU THAT THEY ACCUSED ME OF ILLEGALLY HIDING IN SWEDEN.
THEY IMPLIED THAT I WAS ILLEGALLY HIDING IN THE COUNTRY.
SO MARTIN POSTED THE LETTER, PROVING THAT ALL THE WHILE I HAD BEEN IN
"POLITICAL ASYLUM' - ..Not knowing the termnology as does our 'expert,'
Barb, does, he failed to say 'provisional political asylum' --a term our
'expert' Barb claims does not exist in Sweden, despite the presence of sme
14,000 people in Sweden who do not know yet if they can stay, who have been
in Sweden for months.
THOSE PEOPLE LIVE UNDER PROVISIONAL POLITICAL ASYLUM.
I SENT THE LETTER TO MARTIN AND KNEW ITS CONTENTS--ORDER TO APPEAR
CONCERNING LEAVING THE COUNTRY. THE DATE SHOWED I HAD BEEN IN THE SYSTEM
UNDER PROTECTION FOR NINE MONTHS.
BARB NEXT SAYS:
"It was easy to translate. "
But in another part of the post, you see they had some problems translating.
Guess what happened next?
They contacted a Swede in Sweden to get more information, as online you
cannot get into even public files easily....he claimed he was a 'lurker' --
a Swede, no less! on the newsgroup, though he never posted before, and after
a couple posts, never would again.
The convenient Swede "volunteered" to track me down in the records there.
YES, Barb and McAdams, neither of whom ever made a single phone call to me,
who never sent a single email to ask questions, who never met me, GOT
SOMEBODY IN SWEDEN TO REPORT ON WHAT HE COULD FIND OUT ABOUT MY CASE
AND MY PRIVATE FILES. THEY EVEN PUBLISHED MY CASE FILE NUMBER ON THE INTERNET.
FILE NUMBERS ARE SO YOUR NAME ISN'T 'OUT THERE' TO THE PUBLIC.
BUT THEY GOT MY PRIVATE FILE NUMBER AND PUBLISHED IT.
BARB GOES ON:
The whole appeal that was denied ... a Swedish gentleman got the documents
himself and spoke to the person at the Swedish immigration board.
--BEFORE IT WAS ERASED, WE READ THAT MCADAMS HIMSELF (OR SOMEBODY FOR
MCADAMS) CONTACTED THIS 'GENTLEMAN' WHO OTHERWISE REMAINS UN-NAMED.
I WAS TOLD HE WAS A TRANSLATOR IN THE SYSTEM.
MY SWEDISH FRIENDS WERE VERY UPSET, BECAUSE MY FILE NUMBER WAS NOT EASY
TO GET. .THEY COULD NOT GET IT.
I WAS TOLD MY FILE NUMBER WOULD 'ALWAYS' REMAIN CONFIDENTIAL AND THAT
ANYTHING I PUT IN THAT FILE WOULD REMAIN CONFIDENTIAL, FOREVER.
GOD KNOWS NOW WHAT HAS BEEN REMOVED.
LET'S SEE...THE MAN WHO POSTS THE INFORMATION --IT IS THE FIRST TIME HE
POSTS ON MCADAMS' NEWSGROUP. HE CLAIMS TO BE A LURKER WHO LIVES IN SWEDEN.
HE VANISHES AFTER DELIVERING HIS INFORMATION. YOU NEVER HEAR FROM THE
'GENTLEMAN' AGAIN--
HE HAS DONE HIS JOB.
So, yes, there are documents.
I can dig all that stuff out if someone is actually interested, but Judyth,
though her details are a little different than the reality of it,
--IT'S BARB'S DETAILS THAT ARE A LITTLE DIFFERENT THAN 'THE REALITY OF
IT'---
admits her appeal was denied and that she had to leave Sweden, as far as I
know.
If anyone wants any of that, e-mail me or do a google groups advanced search
for Judyth Sweden Asylum Denied as key words. This thing got split and
renamed into several threads.
--IT WAS SPLIT AND RENAMED INTO THREADS SO PEOPLE COULD NOT SEE THAT BARB,
MCADAMS, AND CO. HID THE TRUTH AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.
But it all started with Pam running to her keyboard to post a little tidbit
about Judyth, that I posted earlier this evening.
PAM PUT THE TIDBIT ON THERE--RAN TO DO IT--TO STOP ACCUSATIONS THAT I WAS AN
ILLEGAL ALIEN HIDING IN SWEDEN.
GOD BLESS HER.
Later Pam announced that she could now reveal that Judyth was in Sweden.
RIGHT--TO STOP THE ACCUSATIONS THAT I WAS AN ILLEGAL ALIEN.
NEXT, THEY SAID I DID NOT GO TO MY MOTHER'S FUNERAL IN DEC. 2007 TO 'PROVE'
THAT I WAS IN SOME KIND OF DANGER, AND WAS LYING.
AS TO MY MOTHER'S DYING IN DEC. 2007, AND MY BEING UNABLE TO GO TO MY OWN
MOTHER'S FUNERAL, DUE TO THREATS AND THE INABILITY TO STAY IN PROTECTION IN
SWEDEN IF I LEFT, THIS COMMENT WAS SO CRUEL AND IDEOUS. THEY HAVE NO
FEELINGS.
HIDEOUS.
A HORRIBLE THING TO SAY ABOUT ANY HUMAN BEING, UPON THE DEATH OF
THEIR MOTHER. HOW DARE THEY.
Nobody was looking for Judyth's whereabouts ....
==NOT SO. WE HAVE SAVED POSTS SHOWING THAT THEY COULD NOT FIND ME AND WERE
ASKING AROUND====
but with Pam's announcement of Judyth getting asylum,
==PAMELA SAID I HAD POLITICAL ASYLUM...GEE, SORRY IT DID NOT SAY
PROVISIONAL, ETC. PAM LATER CORRECTED THAT, WHICH THEY SAID DID NOT EXIST.
I HAD TOLD PAM AND SHACK THAT I COULD NOT STAY THERE FOREVER. WE DIDN'T
REALIZE WE WOULD HAVE NIT-PICKING GOING ON, AD NAUSEUM.
BARB DOES NOT GO ON TO TELL THE READERS THAT I WAS LEGALLY ALLOWED TO APPEAL
FOR A THIRD TIME AND COULD HAVE STAYED POSSIBLY UP TO A YEAR OR TWO LONGER.
BUT I HAD OBTAINED SAFE HAVEN AND DD NOT WANT TO BE A PARASITE ON THE
SYSTEM. I LEFT, THOUGH I COULD HAVE LODGED A THIRD APPEAL WHICH OF COURSE
ALSO WOULD HAVE BEEN DENIED, AS I COME FROM THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE
HOME OF THE BRAVE.
PLEASE FORGIVE CAPS. I HAVE VISION PROBLEMS.
hey, there was a new claim that sounded bizarre, so some wanted to check it
out. Didn't take long to dismantle the whole thing. And Judyth can thank Pam
for it. :-)
==NOTHING WAS DISMANTLED EXCEPT FOR BARB'S INTEGRITY AT TELLING ONLY A
PORTION OF THE STORY, FROM HER OWN DISTORTED VIEWPOINT AS A PECULIAR
RESEARCHER WHO GOES TO A GREAT DEAL OF TROUBLE OVER A PERIOD OF NEARLY A
DECADE TO DISCREDIT A PERSON SHE HAS NEVER ATTENMPTED TO REACH VIA A SINGLE
EMAIL.
I HAVE NEVER FAILED TO RESPOND POLITELY TO ANYONE WHO CONTACTED ME, EVEN
SELF-DECLARED HOSTILE PERSONS SUCH AS BARB. I ALWAYS PRAY FOR THEM, TOO...
Museum in the Netherlands closed ...
SHE WELL KNOWS IT CLOSED EARLY IN 2004, AS HER NEWSGROUP ANNOUNCED IT ON
THE INTERNET. WAS MAINLY OPEN FOR THE 40TH ANNIVERSARY, THOUGH WE HOPED THE
GALLERY WOULD STAY OPEN LONGER. NIGEL TURNER SAT IN THAT MUSEUM WITH ME AND
SHOWED 'THE LOVE AFFAIR' JUST DAYS BEFORE IT WAS SEEN ON THE HISTORY
CHANNEL. HE THEN WENT TO THE US AND SAW IT WITH MY SISTER. HE THEN WENT TO
MARINA OSWALD IN ROCKWELL, TEXAS, AND SHOWED IT TO HER. SHE SAID, "SO, HE
HAD AN AFFAIR...."
and empty from what I was told by someone just a couple of days ago.
AN INTERNET CAFE MOVED INTO THE MUSEUM SPACE IN 2004.
==I ASK THAT THE THRUST NOT BE DIVERTED, THE FOCUS NOT BE DIVERTED, BY THIS
TWISTED VERSION OF MY TEN AND A HALF MONTHS IN THE POLITICAL ASYLUM SYSTEM
IN SWEDEN...SORRY I OFTEN WROTE 'IN POLITICAL ASYLUM' AND LEFT OUT THE WORD
'SYSTEM' AND SHOULD BE CRUCIFIED, AS WELL AS PAN AND MARTIN, FOR NOT USING
LANGUAGE SUCH AS MUST BE USED IN A COURT OF LAW. IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO
MISLEAD, UNLIKE THIS SCREED FROM BARB THAT YOU HAVE JUST READ,
THE INTENTION IS TO DIVERT, ACCUSE ENOUGH THAT THE 'GOLDEN MEAN' IS INVOKED,
--THEY SAY IF A PERSON IS ACCUSED OFTEN ENOUGH, THAT PERSON 'MUST' NOT BE
INNOCENT==
THIS MEANS HAS BEEN USED TO DISTRACT AND DENOUNCE AND DIVERT.
THESE ARE NOT SINCERE RESEARCHERS. I A SURE THAT JACK WHITE, FOR EXAMPLE,
IS SINCERE. PROBABLY OTHERS WHO JUMPED ALL OVER ME. FOR THEY HAD READ
DAMNING EXCERPTS. I DID NOT HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO PRESENT MY SIDE OF
THINGS.
I URGE YOU TO SAVE THIS FOR THE RECORD AND THEN PLEASE GO ON TO WHAT IS
TRULY IMPORTANT, FOR WHICH REASONS I HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO LIVE SAFELY IN THE
US.
BTW, WOULD YOU LIKE TO HAVE BARB AND MCADAMS, ETC. GOING THROUGH ALL YOUR
RECORDS, WHEREVER THEY COULD FIND THEM, FOR A DECADE?
JUDYTH
Bests,
Barb :-)
BARB SAID IT WAS EASY TO GET THE TRANSLATION...BUT POSTED THE INFO
BELOW...NOTE MY COMMENTS ARE IN CAPS. I ALSO CAN PROVIDE THE
DOCUMENTS. (PERSONAL--EVEN
THOUGH THEY PUBLISHED MY FILE NUMBER, PLEASE COVER IT UP! REMEMBER, THIS IS
BEING CONDUCTED TO RED HERRING THE EVIDENCE PRODUCTION EFFORT)
Judyth sought asylum in Sweden. Her application was denied about a month
after she made it. In Sweden, one can appeal that decision, and while
waiting for the appeal to be processed and looked at, "asylum seekers" are
taken care of by the Swedish government. Judyth did appeal. Sweden does not
refer to it as "provisional asylum."
Judyth's appeal took about 7 mos, as I recall. It was denied as well and she
had two weeks (or maybe 6, don't have the docs in front of me) to leave the
country. She didn't leave. She was then served with a notice to appear at
which time her journey home would be discussed. She left Sweden two weeks
later.
Martin posted that Judyth had sent him the letter proving she had been
granted asylum on appeal. He sent it to Tony Marsh to put up on his site.
Here's what I posted in reply to Tony ... so this post includes Martin's
claim, the link to the doc Tony put up, the translation of the doc, and the
link to the Swedish - English translator.
Barb Junkkarinen View profile
(1 user) More options Dec 12 2008, 6:54 pm
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk
From: Barb Junkkarinen <barbREMOVE...@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 18:54:12 -0800
Local: Fri, Dec 12 2008 6:54 pm
Subject: Judyth's "proof" of a successful appeal for asylum
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Thanks to Tony, this is up on his site.
On 12 Dec 2008 20:24:17 -0500, Anthony Marsh- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
<anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Barb Junkkarinen wrote:
>> On 12 Dec 2008 15:58:26 -0500, Anthony Marsh
>> <anthony_ma...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Martin Shackelford wrote:
>>>> I just forwarded a copy to Tony Marsh of the letter granting asylum,
>>>> which was issued in July of this year.
>>> Translation? Babblefish?
>> Just put the document up, Anthony. There are several translators
>> available, as well as at least one person who can read Swedish.
>You can read Swedish? It is in a JPG file so I don't see how any automatic
>translator could handle it. I think you'll have to OCR it first.
This is so short it's easy to type in to a translator.
Martin should have done so before flying off halfcocked again.
Judyth says this is her document saying her appeal was successful and
she had been granted asylum???
First of all, it's obviously an appointment letter with a date, time
and place listed ... and a phone number to call.
What's the appt about? Type the top line into any Swedish to English
translator.
"Du kallas till Migrationsverket for att prata om din hemresa"
translates as.....
QUOTE Translation: Swedish » English
"You are called to the Migration Board for talking about your journey home"
[quote name='Jack White' post='185902' date='Mar 7 2010, 06:11 AM']Does "provisional asylum" mean the "protection of a foreign government"? If so,
there ought to be some official documentation available.
Is she no longer under "Dankbaar asylum" in Amsterdam? What happened to
her LHO Museum there?
Why does she refuse to accept the massive 12 year documentation of John
Armstrong?[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 08-03-2010
Judyth's preliminary response to Jack White about "the two Oswalds":
Wish I had Armstrong's book--that's the crux of the problem...I only have quotes....but even from the quotes, I can provide information and will try to assemble some more.
Jack White says Armstrong's book is full of plenty of stuff.
He says Armstrong 'researched' me...a few emails and perhaps one phone call...told Sydney and others that because I was not pregnant in New Orleans, I could not have posed as marina--even though at one point I tried to use a pillow, yes, I did.
He told people at Copa that because I said I was not pregnant, he dismissed everything I had to say after that.
Since I 'could not' have posed as Marina Oswald, even though she was sequestered and only went to the local library and food stores, twice to Pontchatrain Beach, and was in the French quarter only with Ruth Paine, not accompanied by Lee...as we had been there quite a few times, I believe that's why he stayed behind. The excursion to the French quarter with Ruth Paine just before they left for Texas--and Lee went off to Mexico City--is described in plenty of detail.
Armstrong never gave me a chance, and Jack should look into Armstrong's book to see if there is a single reference to me in the entire enormous book--if only to dismiss what I had to say, there should be something.
I will be happy to provide a long list of objections. Then you'll see why DellaRosa simply erased everything I wrote.
It will take some time, because I am tired from weeping over loss of Martha and have one final chapter in our book to finish for Laura. Martha would want me to finish the book we nearly had completed when she died. I am going to do that translation work tonight...
I will send more information tomorrow or Tuesday on "the two Oswalds".
Meanwhile, I attach more files of interest:
1) 1963 National Institutes of Health published their report on activities they funded. Please note the items regarding viruses and cancer. The bioweapon project was supported by NIH research, funds and personnel in many peripheral aspects, some of which are evident on this page of the report.
![[Image: dfvymp.jpg]](http://i49.tinypic.com/dfvymp.jpg)
2) a-1 employment showing Lee's May 15 visit...a-1 check front and back...I used "Mrs. Robert A. Baker, III" to hide my name, but the account was under 'Judy Baker' so that was written on the back.
![[Image: 2dwdwfl.jpg]](http://i46.tinypic.com/2dwdwfl.jpg)
![[Image: fac404.jpg]](http://i48.tinypic.com/fac404.jpg)
![[Image: 5e69tx.jpg]](http://i48.tinypic.com/5e69tx.jpg)
I also have bank statement, but that is also connected with the American Express matter...It all happened in the same bank statement. I also have the a-1 fine print blown up showing they were supposed to take much more than what the a-1 check is for. Lee got the amount reduced tremendously so I'd have money for food, etc. As my new husband really had let me down--he was unable to be reached and was out of town for weeks, without leaving even his phone number where he could be reached in an emergency. Lee helped me many ways that summer while I was virtually abandoned for weeks at a time...
[quote name='Jack White' post='185978' date='Mar 7 2010, 06:30 PM']Amazing.
I find it interesting that though JVB says her new husband left her "immediately" after
their marriage she somehow (not explained) was able to conceive 5 beautiful children
by someone. Mr. Baker is very conspicuous by his absence in her stories.
Thanks to whomever accumulated all these quotes, sayings, non-sayings, rebuttals, excuses,
etc. which I had never seen. They are helpful in trying to understand this strange hiccup
in the JFK case.
I wish that included had been the JVB responses to the 12 years of documented research
by John Armstrong showing that two different persons (or more) used the name "Lee
Harvey Oswald". As I recall, her reply was that there was only ONE Oswald..."LEE".
According to Armstrong's documentation, the LHO who worked at Reily Coffee Company
was not Lee, but HARVEY. I guess "Lee" withheld that secret from her.[/quote]