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John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 17-08-2013
Thanks for posting that Charles..... excellent stuff....
Here are some thoughts on the physical evidence and the refusal of the FBI to do what was needed to uncover actual evidence.
The connection of C2766 to Oswald is established by a chain of evidence that attempts to
1) establish that Oswald is Hidell...
2) that Oswald wrote the Hidell order coupon...
3) that the Money Order was purchased and sent by Oswald, and
4) that Klein's substituted, shipped and delivered C2766, a 40" FC rifle for the ordered 36" TS rifle... as they no longer had the TS rifles
1) Was OSWALD = HIDELL?
There is one and only one piece of evidence that implies Hidell is Oswald... and that is a faked SSS Notice of Classification. In all the other
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5101[/ATTACH]
The HIDELL with photo is an exact replica of the SSS card Oswlad had yet shrunk the text to make room for a photo... which did not appear on any other SSS card... they didn't have photos...
which is why the Oswald SSS card can be considered authentic. Whether or not this ID was ever used to establish OSWALD=HIDELL is not fully known.
From what I've researched it was not. WE do not know who created this ID (Oswald is a definite possibility) or Why... but we do know that there is no recorded evidence showing Oswald ever used a Hidell ID to refer to himself.
http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...ol24_0018a.htm
this is CE1986 listing the content of the WALLET OSWALD HAD WHEN ARRESTED... and includes #12 the SSS card of Alek HIDELL
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/the_cri...th_Malice.html
However, even if the wallet in the newsfilm footage isn't Oswald's arrest
wallet, the fact remains that former Special Agent Barrett insists an Oswald
wallet with both Oswald ID and fake Hidell ID was found at the scene, and that
Barrett clearly recalls that he was asked if he knew who Oswald or Hidell was by
the policeman who was examining the wallet. Nor does it change the fact that
former Special Agent Hosty confirmed that Barrett told him about the finding of
an Oswald wallet at the Tippit scene. Nor does it change the fact that there is
newsfilm footage of policemen examining a wallet right next to Tippit's patrol
car. The Dallas police said they found Oswald's "real" wallet on his person
while they were driving him to the police station. So the Oswald wallet that was
found at the Tippit scene was fake and was planted there in an effort to frame
Oswald.
While there appears to have been up to 4 OSWALD WALLETS the two important ones are the ARREST BILLFOLD and what was found at the TIPPIT MURDER SCENE.
Whether the SSS HIDELL card was ever in his ARREST WALLET is not known for sure...
CD5 suggests one and only one wallet had contents in it.... http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/ar...6&relPageId=96
The sum total of the evidence that OSWALD was HIDELL based on Oswald's behavior in presenting himself as Hidell or using this ID, shows that the ONLY TIME Oswald is connected to Hidell is thru the purchase of C2766.
This is not to say Oswald was not indeed presenting himself as HIDELL... the is simply no evidence offered to support it.... other than what Oswald supposedly said to Hill and Bentley
2:00 - 2:15 P.M. Drive to Police Dept. "What is this all about? . . . I know my rights. . . . A police officer has been killed? . . . I hear they burn for murder. Well, they say it just takes a second to die. . . . All I did was carry a gun. . . . No, Hidell is not my real name. . . . I have been in the Marine Corps, have a dishonorable discharge, and went to Russia. . . . I had some trouble with police in New Orleans for passing out pro-Castro literature. . . . Why are you treating me this way? . . . I am not being handled right. . . . I demand my rights."
2) Is that Oswald's writing on the Order Coupon and Envelope to Kleins?
HSCA Writing experts panel conclusions: http://www.history-matters.com/archi...onclusions.pdf
(27) With the restrictions and reservations stated in each panel
member's final report,*
*In particular. members noted that not all documents were available in
their original . It is standard practice in the profession ofquestioned document
examination to make definitive conclusions only about documentsexamined in
their original. Thus the panel members gave only tentative opinions foritems
provided them in some type of facsimile.
Item #30 was an "ENLARGEMENT OF A MICROFILM REPRODUCTION" of both the coupon and the envelope with the coupon copied directly onto the envelope.
[size=12]
[size=12][size=12]Conclusions of David Purtell (71)
Five items of evidence were not examined in the original, but
were copies . Photocopies have several limitations. They do not reproduce
all the fine details in handwriting needed in making an examination
and comparison. At best, they do not produce as sharp an image
as a properly produced photograph, and they lack tonal gradations,
a result of the contrasting process of reproduction . In addition, it is
possible to incorporate or insert changes and alterations into copies . A
method frequently used is to paste together parts of documents to make
one fradulent document, which is then copied. If the first copy can
pass inspection, it will be used ; if not, it will be reworked to eliminate
all signs of alteration. This amended copy is then recopied for the
finished product. This is usually referred to as the "cut and paste"
method
[/SIZE]
Item #29 is the Kleins Money Order
(75) Item 29 was a Xerox copy made from a microfilm copy. Such a
second generation copy has the defects of both processes.
[/SIZE][/SIZE]
Yet... Charles Scott write:(139) Question. Although they purport to be the handwriting of one
Hidell, were the postal money order (item 29) and the envelopeaddressed
to Kleins (item 30) actually written by the person who wrote
the signatures and other writings which purport to be Oswald's?
(140) Opinion. The original of the money order (item 29) was examined
and compared with the original writings purporting to be
Oswald's.
Any ideas how one HSCA expert describes #29 as a bad copy while another tells us it was in the Original form..... ??
Again - Conclusion here is that the HSCA experts were given 2 pieces of evidence related to the rifle and BOTH were poor reproductions OF reproductions.
A conclusive determination of whether Oswald indeed wrote those documents has to be further corroborated by the actions needed to accomplish such things....
Finally, does HIDELL's order of a C20-T750, a 36" M91/38 TS rifle equate to Oswald with C2766 in the SE corner of the 6th floor.... ?
3) Was the Money Order purchased and sent by Oswald?
That that particular MO did not go thru a bank clearing process is very suspect. Did other Kelins received Money Orders look the same?
The MO was purchased at a "Dallas G.P.O." on March 12th.
By 10:30 on March 12th an envelope is mailed from "DALLAS 12" supposedly with $10 cash and the coupon.
Jack White wrote:
Between November 14 and December 6 ( 3 1/2 weeks) the US post office in Dallas sold 3887 money orders-slightly more than 1000 per week. Three months later, on March 12, 1963, Oswald allegedly purchased the following money order from the main post office (GPO) in Dallas:
2,202,130,461 $21.45 March 12, 1963 GPO Dallas
Money orders were issued in numerical sequence from both the Dallas and Ft. Worth post offices. By March 12, had they continued selling 1000 money orders per week, the Dallas post office should have seen selling money orders beginning with 1,158,389,000. However, the money order allegedly purchased by Oswald numbered 2,202,130,461. It is doubtful that the Dallas Post office sold 1,043,745,864 (one billion, 43 million, seven hundred forty five thousand.......) money orders in 3 months. The number on the money order made payable to Kleins Sporting Goods suggests that either the money order came from another location or, if from the Dallas post office, came from a different series of money orders.
He also wrote that Oswald was at work on MArch 12 from 8am on. That there would be little to no time to go to one PO to buy the MO and another to mail it, all beofre 10:30 am
That the MO was never cashed, was severely out of sequence and was proivided for analysis in its worst possible form... I believe we can conclude that Oswald had nothing to do with the MO, the coupon or the rifle that was found
4) Did Kleins actually ship C2766 in place of the ordered C20-T750?
On February 22nd, 1963, workers in the receiving department controlled by Klein's generaloperating
manager Mitchell Scibor opened the carton and allegedly assignedcontrol numbers
to the rifles, listing them with their serial numbers as the weapons were un-packed.
Klein's control number VC 836 allegedly showed (from February 22nd on}a
corresponding serial number, C 2766.
The following are the packing slips fromwhich C2766 was shipped to Kleins and from which they were transferred to the VC "master" list.
One might expect to see a carton of rifles unpacked together and listed together on the VC list... not so much.
The VC#'s assigned are next to each of the two packing slips I chose... Below that is the MASTER VC list... There are short black, long black, red and Blue indicators of 10 rifles each
that do not appear to follow any order or organized manner of unpacking.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5102[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5103[/ATTACH]
The Microfilm, as John Armstrong has told us, that contained the HIDELL ORDER and other related documents is a CE exhibit Cadigan Exh #1, and is now empty.
The microfilm contained the orders 269688 thru 270596
the HIDEL ORDER was 270502... 94 orders from the last and 814 orders from the first....
If Kleins shipped the 40" FC rifles for C20-T750 orders rec'd since Aug 1962 when C20-T750 began being advertised as a scoped rifle for $19.95... we could see what was shipped for each and every one of them during this and any other time.... in addition, we could see what order #'s were used when the actual 40" FC rifles were ordered. In April 1963, C20-T750 became the official designation Item # for the FC 40" rifles.
So in addition to Evica's presentation of the evidence as told by Marina... which has little to no corroboration or authentication and REEKS of influence... the physical evidence left behind does not support Oswald, at least not the one arrested and killed, ever ordering,paying for or picking up said rifle.... let alone getting it to where it was found on 11/22.
Cheers
DJ
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Charles Drago - 17-08-2013
Thanks, David.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Karl Kinaski - 17-08-2013
Quote, JVB in Exile thread Ed-Forum:
Quote:Armstrong reported that both (Harvey and Lee) had attended Beauregard Junior High School, but that "Harvey" had left at the end of 5th grade, while "Lee" showed up at the start of the school year for 6th grade. Given his aggressive tendencies--not so much of starting fights but of ending them--the story is related of his having taken a punch from a classmate and losing a tooth! That all sounds fine, where "Lee"'s missing tooth henceforth distingishes him from "Harvey". But the story went on to explain that Lillian Murret remembered the incident and had paid the the dental visit. That was very peculiar, because Lillian was the aunt of "Harvey", not of "Lee", so what was she doing paying for "Lee"'s dental work?
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 17-08-2013
Karl Kinaski Wrote:Quote, JVB in Exile thread Ed-Forum:
Quote:Armstrong reported that both (Harvey and Lee) had attended Beauregard Junior High School, but that "Harvey" had left at the end of 5th grade, while "Lee" showed up at the start of the school year for 6th grade. Given his aggressive tendencies--not so much of starting fights but of ending them--the story is related of his having taken a punch from a classmate and losing a tooth! That all sounds fine, where "Lee"'s missing tooth henceforth distingishes him from "Harvey". But the story went on to explain that Lillian Murret remembered the incident and had paid the the dental visit. That was very peculiar, because Lillian was the aunt of "Harvey", not of "Lee", so what was she doing paying for "Lee"'s dental work?
Karl,
[size=12]Not sure whose story you're referencing above, but it seems to refer to Lillian Murret's WC testimony (Lillian was the aunt of American-born LEE, not Russian-speaking HARVEY. It is doubtful Harvey had any American blood relatives before he brought his family back from Russia.) Here's what Lillian Murret told the WC:
[/SIZE]
"Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, "Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to have started any of that at that time."
From her description ("this boy punched him in the mouth and ran") this appears to have been a retaliatory ambush from the big fight with the Neumeyers a few days earlier. That fight lasted a long time according to the witnesses who saw it. One of them was Ed Voebel, who had this exchange with Jenner:
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.
Lillian Murret says Marguerite took LEE Oswald to the dentist for a cut lip; but of course you'd be more likely to do that for a broken or lost tooth (can a dentist treat lips?), and so one or the other of the witnesses is probably slightly mistaken about the results of the fight. But the kicker, for me, is the photo of LEE Ed Voebel sold to Life Magazine for $75, which certainly seems to show Oswald with a missing tooth.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5106[/ATTACH]
You can see a slightly larger blow-up of the cropped image here: http://harveyandlee.net/Tooth/Tooth.htm . On that web page, you can also see the exhumation photo which clearly shows Harvey had no missing front tooth. (When I got the Life photo in 1999, I was just putting the H&L website together and most of us were still using slow dial-up connections. So I compressed the hell out of all the photos and documents to perserve bandwidth. Jack White sent me a quite a bit clearer image for the Life Magazine photo, but I can't find it now. I need to look around the web to see if anyone has a clearer image.)
Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 17-08-2013
Karl,
I've gone to the trouble of answering many of your pointed questions in this thread. So ... for the third time or so here...
Will you please tell me how two gunshot wounds "LEE Oswald" sustained in his upper left arm while in the USMC completely disappeared just six years later?
--Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Peter Lemkin - 17-08-2013
KK is here representing the 'WC' version, IMO....don't be fooled and don't waste too much of your time. He mildly cleverly disguises this, but it shouldn't fool any here. Look at the pattern....he's here to provoke and cast doubts, not to correct or 'argue' valid points. If presented with logical questions he [or any official version supporter] can't answer, he will avoid and just post a new diversionary ambush. It's his game.:darthvader:
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Phil Dragoo - 17-08-2013
Peter
As you note, Jim and Yesbut are at opposite ends of the Signal-Noise dial
Jim
Thank you for the clarity
Some day I will have a cup of Luzianne Coffee & Chicory with Judyth and discuss science fair projects
Harvey & Lee have shipped. Has shipped. Both to this address.
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Jim Hargrove - 18-08-2013
JA just sent me the following picture (sorry it isn't clearer) taken in New Orleans in 1956.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5108[/ATTACH]
We think the guy on the right is American-born LEE Oswald, the woman his arm is around is the real Marguerite Oswald, but would anyone be willing to hazard an opinion about the identity of the woman on the left? John has a guess, but he's far from certain. Honestly, I don't have a clue, other than to say there are a very limited number of women connected to Harvey and Lee... in 1956 and in most other years prior to 11/63... and I'm willing to go out on a limb and say it isn't Marina vacationing from Russia.
More guesses would be appreciated. If there are two or more responses, I'll share John's guess.
--Jim
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - David Josephs - 18-08-2013
Jim Hargrove Wrote:Jim... didn't John Pic say this also looked a lot like Robert... that Lee was big for his age... and that sometimes Robert would sit in for Lee? http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0416a.htm Mr. JENNER - Exhibit No. 287 is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those?Karl Kinaski Wrote:Quote, JVB in Exile thread Ed-Forum:
Quote:Armstrong reported that both (Harvey and Lee) had attended Beauregard Junior High School, but that "Harvey" had left at the end of 5th grade, while "Lee" showed up at the start of the school year for 6th grade. Given his aggressive tendencies--not so much of starting fights but of ending them--the story is related of his having taken a punch from a classmate and losing a tooth! That all sounds fine, where "Lee"'s missing tooth henceforth distingishes him from "Harvey". But the story went on to explain that Lillian Murret remembered the incident and had paid the the dental visit. That was very peculiar, because Lillian was the aunt of "Harvey", not of "Lee", so what was she doing paying for "Lee"'s dental work?
Karl,
[size=12]Not sure whose story you're referencing above, but it seems to refer to Lillian Murret's WC testimony (Lillian was the aunt of American-born LEE, not Russian-speaking HARVEY. It is doubtful Harvey had any American blood relatives before he brought his family back from Russia.) Here's what Lillian Murret told the WC:
[/SIZE]"Another time they were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, "Lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and I paid for the dentist bill myself, and that's all I know about that, and he was not supposed to have started any of that at that time."
From her description ("this boy punched him in the mouth and ran") this appears to have been a retaliatory ambush from the big fight with the Neumeyers a few days earlier. That fight lasted a long time according to the witnesses who saw it. One of them was Ed Voebel, who had this exchange with Jenner:
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.Lillian Murret says Marguerite took LEE Oswald to the dentist for a cut lip; but of course you'd be more likely to do that for a broken or lost tooth (can a dentist treat lips?), and so one or the other of the witnesses is probably slightly mistaken about the results of the fight.
But the kicker, for me, is the photo of LEE Ed Voebel sold to Life Magazine for $75, which certainly seems to show Oswald with a missing tooth.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5106[/ATTACH]
You can see a slightly larger blow-up of the cropped image here: http://harveyandlee.net/Tooth/Tooth.htm . On that web page, you can also see the exhumation photo which clearly shows Harvey had no missing front tooth. (When I got the Life photo in 1999, I was just putting the H&L website together and most of us were still using slow dial-up connections. So I compressed the hell out of all the photos and documents to perserve bandwidth. Jack White sent me a quite a bit clearer image for the Life Magazine photo, but I can't find it now. I need to look around the web to see if anyone has a clearer image.)
Jim
Mr. PIC - No, sir; I don't.
Mr. JENNER - Neither one of them?
Mr. PIC - No, sir. The lower one appears to me to look like Robert rather than Lee. The upper one, unless they tell me that, I would never guess that that would be Lee, sir I will have to look for photos of Robert during this time 1950-1963 not saying this isn't Lee... but if Lee and Robert looked alike....
John Armstrong's Harvey and Lee - Karl Kinaski - 18-08-2013
Downtown Lincoln-Mercury--it used to be McAllister Lincoln-Mercury. There was an Oswald doppelganger, on Sa. Nov. 9. 1963, interested in buying a car. -- But It was could not have been Lee Harvey Oswald, nor Armstrongs "Harvey."
Why?
WC Testimony Frank Pizzo sales manager of Downtown Lincoln Mercury.
Mr. Jenner.This is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald that I'm about to show you and before I show it to you, may I say that the important thing to us--it is necessary for us to have your very best judgment, and if this isn't the person, we want to know it and to carry yourself back as best you can to that particular occasion when you saw this man at the door of your office, and if this isn't the man, tell us, and if it is--tell us, one way or the other.
Mr. Pizzo.All right. That I will do. [Examining instrument referred to.]
Mr. Jenner.The greatest service you can give to us and to the country and to yourself is to just be as fair as you possibly can.
Mr. Pizzo.He certainly don't have the hairline I was describing--it isn't the hairline I was describing.
Mr. Jenner.This was taken the afternoon of November 22 in the Dallas City Police showup.
(Discussion off the record.)
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and Counsel Davis and the witness, Mr. Pizzo, off the record.)
Mr. Jenner.Back on the record. You recall him as being more in the neighborhood of what--5 feet 8 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, more or less, or more or less?
Mr. Pizzo.Between 5 feet 7 inches and 5 foot 8 1/2 inches with sort of a round forehead and that V shape is the thing that I remember the most.
Mr. Jenner.A widow's peak?
Mr. Pizzo.Yes; but very weak.
Mr. Jenner.Very weak.
Mr. Pizzo.Very weak--not the bushy type that I see in the picture. Well, if I'm not sure then--I have to say that he is not the one if you want the absolute statement.
Mr. Jenner.I just want your best judgment--I don't want you to say he isn't because you feel you are compelled to state the ultimate. It is better for me to have your rumination about it, as you have been giving us--as to what you looked for, or didn't find and what you did look for in the photographs--what you did find and what you didn't find. Now, you don't find the hairline?
Mr. Pizzo.No; I don't. From that picture I don't.
WIDOWS PEAK...of that particular Oswald doppelganger
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5110[/ATTACH]
OSWALD: NO WIDOWS PEAK...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5111[/ATTACH]