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+--- Thread: FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK (/Thread-FBI-Evidence-Proves-Oswald-s-Ammunition-was-not-Capable-of-Sufficient-Accuracy-to-Kill-JFK)
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Drew Phipps - 29-04-2014
So, I measured the photos of the casings from NARA CE 543, CE 544, and CE 545 with my digital analysis software. All of the diameters of all the casings appear to match the specs within the error factor introduced by pixelation. The length from base to shoulder are as follows:
CE 545 41.66 mm (1.64 in.)
CE 544 41.66 mm (1.64 in.)
CE 543 45.72 mm ? (1.8 in.)? (I'm going to recheck this measurement. Ignore for now.)
I see the spec length is 41.20 mm (1.62 in.) Is the observed expansion here of the fired bullets CE 545 and CE 544 consistent, or inconsistent, with being fired from a M-C 91/38?
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 29-04-2014
Drew Phipps Wrote:So, I measured the photos of the casings from NARA CE 543, CE 544, and CE 545 with my digital analysis software. All of the diameters of all the casings appear to match the specs within the error factor introduced by pixelation. The length from base to shoulder are as follows:
CE 545 41.66 mm (1.64 in.)
CE 544 41.66 mm (1.64 in.)
CE 543 45.72 mm ? (1.8 in.)? (I'm going to recheck this measurement. Ignore for now.)
I see the spec length is 41.20 mm (1.62 in.) Is the observed expansion here of the fired bullets CE 545 and CE 544 consistent, or inconsistent, with being fired from a M-C 91/38?
That would appear to be correct. This was military ammunition being fired in a military rifle, after all, and expansion in length by less than half a millimeter is to be expected.
Military rifles are designed to be used in less than ideal conditions and, should a bit of dirt or sand find its way into the cartridge chamber, a soldier must still be able to chamber a cartridge and close the bolt. Easing up on the tolerances in the chamber, by allowing for more headspace, provides these tolerances but, in some cases, will sacrifice accuracy in order to do so. If you ever purchase a military bolt action rifle, a gunsmith can check the headspace and bring it into the tolerances for that particular cartridge.
Too much headspace can have detrimental effects on a casing. As the casing "grows" in length during firing, it may stretch so much as to weaken the casing walls; causing the casing to rupture or even separate.
Of course, this doesn't really tell us all that much. If I was going to plant a 6.5mm M91/38 Carcano, I would also plant empty casings that had been fired in that rifle.
P.S. Interesting to see what the revised measurement for CE 543 turns out to be. I'm still baffled as to how it received the dent on the casing neck.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Drew Phipps - 30-04-2014
As you know, FBI expert Frazier said the casing was dented when it struck the floor after ejection, and that the "ejection tests" they did (to prove that the spread of brass was not impossible) resulted in more than one shell being dented. My digital analysis software is on my computer at work so I'll get to it tomorrow.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 30-04-2014
Drew Phipps Wrote:As you know, FBI expert Frazier said the casing was dented when it struck the floor after ejection, and that the "ejection tests" they did (to prove that the spread of brass was not impossible) resulted in more than one shell being dented. My digital analysis software is on my computer at work so I'll get to it tomorrow.
Just another fairy tale from Mr. Frazier to add to his collection. I've dropped lots of empty casings on a wood floor and not one of them came out looking like CE 543.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Drew Phipps - 30-04-2014
Realized that I wrote down the wrong figure in the wrong column, so the length of the dented cartridge (CE 543) from base to shoulder is also 1.64". My bad.
So we have three "authentic" either Italian-made or WCC-made casings, (which have all been chambered more than once) for the M-C 91/38 present in the "sniper's nest." Strange then that the bullets recovered then don't appear to match the spent casings, and instead appear to be some sort of .25 cal bullet.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 30-04-2014
Drew Phipps Wrote:Realized that I wrote down the wrong figure in the wrong column, so the length of the dented cartridge (CE 543) from base to shoulder is also 1.64". My bad.
So we have three "authentic" either Italian-made or WCC-made casings, (which have all been chambered more than once) for the M-C 91/38 present in the "sniper's nest." Strange then that the bullets recovered then don't appear to match the spent casings, and instead appear to be some sort of .25 cal bullet.
What I find odd is where Frazier came up with the diameter measurement of 6.65 mm for CE 399, which matches neither a .25 calibre bullet nor any 6.5 mm calibre rifle, nor any bullet on the planet outside of one experimental Swiss bullet developed for a NATO bid known as the 6.45x48mm XPL Swiss. It was not developed until 1979, though, and never went beyond the prototype stage.
As I said earlier, Frazier testified to the WC that he measured the diameter of the bullet in the unfired WCC cartridge found in the rifle from the 6th floor and determined the diameter to be 6.65 mm. In the same breath, he told the WC that this equated to a bullet .267" in diameter and that this was the correct diameter for a 6.5mm Carcano bullet. The real diameter is closer to .268" at .2677". A bullet 6.65 mm in diameter actually equates to an English measurement of .2618", much too small to be any other 6.5mm bullet (.264") and much too big to be a .25 calibre bullet at .257".
The most probable thing, to me at least, is that Frazier made an error in measuring the bullet in the unspent WCC cartridge by .5 mm, and the bullet was, in reality, 6.7 mm in diameter. This equates to .26378" or .264", the standard bullet diameter for every 6.5mm rifle except the 6.5mm Carcano, which, as we know, requires a bullet .268" in diameter to be accurate.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Marc Ellis - 02-05-2014
FWIW Robert, I mentioned your work and linked this thread at Jefferson Morley's JFKFacts.org. The thread there is about important NEW evidence in the JFK assassination. Of course this isn't exactly 'new' evidence. But it seems your new work on this old evidence has the potential to be very important. It could possibly exclude the M/C as the murder weapon - using the FBI's own evidence and calculations.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Bob Prudhomme - 02-05-2014
Marc Ellis Wrote:FWIW Robert, I mentioned your work and linked this thread at Jefferson Morley's JFKFacts.org. The thread there is about important NEW evidence in the JFK assassination. Of course this isn't exactly 'new' evidence. But it seems your new work on this old evidence has the potential to be very important. It could possibly exclude the M/C as the murder weapon - using the FBI's own evidence and calculations.
Thank you Marc. I have tended to shy away from this site, as it allows the presence of John McAdams, and several other disinfo agents. Life is too short to be spent debating those who are well paid not to see your point of view. However, I am grateful to you for linking to this thread, as I believe the open minded will recognize the truth when they see it, and spreading the word is the only weapon we have.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Marc Ellis - 02-05-2014
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:Marc Ellis Wrote:FWIW Robert, I mentioned your work and linked this thread at Jefferson Morley's JFKFacts.org. The thread there is about important NEW evidence in the JFK assassination. Of course this isn't exactly 'new' evidence. But it seems your new work on this old evidence has the potential to be very important. It could possibly exclude the M/C as the murder weapon - using the FBI's own evidence and calculations.
Thank you Marc. I have tended to shy away from this site, as it allows the presence of John McAdams, and several other disinfo agents. Life is too short to be spent debating those who are well paid not to see your point of view. However, I am grateful to you for linking to this thread, as I believe the open minded will recognize the truth when they see it, and spreading the word is the only weapon we have.
It's hard to over-state the importance of - as Drew Phipps said - of ruling out the possibility that CE399 was fired from the MC. Few if any of us think CE399 struck JFK anyway. But to come at it from a different angle and to rule out the MC rifle as being able to fire that round with any accuracy - could be historic.
There is work to be done of course - someone - probably in the US - needs to get a hold of some of those rare rounds and test the effect on accuracy under controlled conditions. I don't know much about ballistics and I know nothing about rifling patterns. But even I can see the potential here.
FBI Evidence Proves Oswald's Ammunition was not Capable of Sufficient Accuracy to Kill JFK - Drew Phipps - 02-05-2014
The problem with arguing about the "acccuracy" of the weapon is that even if it is the worst gun in the world and Oswald a terrible shot, it still doesn't rule him out as the Lone Gunman. He could have been shooting at trees (first shot may have come z160 while the trees obscured view) or birds in the sky, or aiming at Mary Moorman, or nothing in particular, and still killed JFK. What rules him out as a Lone Gunman is proving that the bullet (whole or bits) weren't fired from "his" rifle at all.
Ballistically, CE 399 is either the wrong size or the wrong shape (depending upon which photo you care to examine), and the rifling marks are demonstrably wrong for any bullet fired from the M-C 91/38. This means, at best, that the FBI botched the forensics (and then covered it up), and at worst fabricated CE 399 (and then committed perjury). The only way for that gun to have shot those bullets is if the gun is a wholly unique (probably custom-made) firearm with non-standard barrel size and riflings, and that has been machined and stamped to look like a mail order mil-surplus M-C 91/38. And then, improperly fitted with a crappy scope.