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+--- Thread: The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 (/thread-14411.html)
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 06-02-2016
Don't know David.
George Hickey (Secret Service agent, in the follow-up car), November 30,1963: "It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upperrear of his head. The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missedbecause the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and theredidn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed tohit his head ...." [Statement sent to Special Agent in Charge of WhiteHouse Detail, Gerald A. Behn: 18H762]
First shot of the second two. Two shots.
Hickey and Altgens use the term "last" shot to describe a headshot.
Altgens and Hudson both testify about a shot farther down than extant z313.
CE875 would appear to have been created early on, with the bumper description,recreation videos/photos and WCD298 providing back up for it. imo
I've stated in previous posts that the headshot we see at extant z313 could actually be what occurred near Altgens.
chris
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - David Josephs - 06-02-2016
I agree that is possible - just messes with the mind how they could make it look like it was up by Moorman.
A more reasonable Occum's answer is that this last shot was created to match the desired scenario of 3 shots 3 hits... Since all involved knew this didn't happen the Zfilm, if actually taken that day would show the corner turn, limo stop and multiple shots overlapping... the stop and flurry seem to me the more important thing to remove from the film.
Do you agree that the math makes sense for them to put a shot around 5+00 as there is no place else to put a third shot.. allowing for reloading at 2-3 seconds.. about the length of the stop?
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 06-02-2016
David Josephs Wrote:I agree that is possible - just messes with the mind how they could make it look like it was up by Moorman.
A more reasonable Occum's answer is that this last shot was created to match the desired scenario of 3 shots 3 hits... Since all involved knew this didn't happen the Zfilm, if actually taken that day would show the corner turn, limo stop and multiple shots overlapping... the stop and flurry seem to me the more important thing to remove from the film.
Do you agree that the math makes sense for them to put a shot around 5+00 as there is no place else to put a third shot.. allowing for reloading at 2-3 seconds.. about the length of the stop?
Yes,
It appears they were using the same thought process here, counting from extant Z207, which does not match where shot#1 is actually plotted on the SS/FBI plat.
Remember, West, via the Time/Life investigation, documents a 1st shot flat line location of 163.65ft. Which, when plotted matches Z207 on the SS/FBI plats.
chris
Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to frame 249, that is how many frames beyond the first point at which the spot on President Kennedy's back was visible after he passed out from under the oak tree?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is 249?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is 42 frames.
Mr. SPECTER. And does a 42-frame count have any significance with respect to the firing time on the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; we have established that the Zapruder motion picture camera operates at an average speed of 18.3 frames per second. And we have been advised that the minimum time for firing the rifle in successive shots is approximately two and a quarter seconds. So this gives us then a figure of two and a quarter seconds of frames; at 18.3, this gives us this figure of 41 to 42 frames.
Representative FORD. Would you repeat that again, please?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. The camera operates at a speed of 18.3 frames per second. So that in two and a quarter seconds it would run through about 42--41 to 42 frames.
Representative FORD. Then the firing of the rifle, repeat that again?
Mr. SHANEYFELT. As to the firing of the rifle we have been advised that the minimum time for getting off two successive well-aimed shots on the rifle is approximately two and a quarter seconds. That is the basis for using this 41 to 42 frames to establish two points in the film where two successive quick shots could have been fired.
![[Image: Tom%20Purvis2_1.jpg]](http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r25/123steamn/Tom%20Purvis2_1.jpg)
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - David Josephs - 07-02-2016
Now isn't 207 chosen as the first frame from which a 6th floor shot could clear the tree and hit it's target?
Yet NPIC notes show us LIFE thought #1 was at 190. NPIC said 206 or 213 and NPIC, Dino, questioned how #1 AND #2 were determined
In neither NPIC assumption do we have enough time to reload and fire...
NPIC seems pretty sure that 242 shows a shot... below is the collage of all these frames.
Do you think this NPIC viewing of the film shows 313 as seen in Moorman/Zap or is further down Elm as described by Altgens?
April 27,1964 Norman Redlich to Rankin
Our examination of the Zapruder films shows that the fatal
third shot struck the President at a point which we can locate with
reasonable accuracy on the ground. We can do this because we know the
exact frame (no. 313) in the film at which the third shot hit the
President and we know the location of the photographer. By lining up
fixed objects in the movie frame where this shot occurs we feel that
we have determined the approximate location of this shot. This can be
verified by a photo of the same spot from the point where Zapruder was
standing.
We have the testimony of Governor and Mrs. Connally that the
Governor was hit with the second bullet at a point which we probably
cannot fix with precision. We feel we have established, however, with
the help of medical testimony, that the shot which hit the Governor
did not come after frame 240 on the Zapruder film. The governor feels
that it came around 230, which is certainly consistent with our
observations of the film and with the doctor's testimony. Since the
President was shot at frame 313, this would leave a time of at least 4
seconds between the two shots, certainly ample for even an
inexperienced marksman.
Prior to our last viewing of the films with Governor Connally
we had assumed that the President was hit while he was concealed
behind the sign which occurs between frames 215-225. We have expert
testimony to the effect that a skilled marksman would require a
minimum 2 seconds between shots with this rifle. Since the camera
operates at 18 1/3 frames per second, there would have to be a minimum
of 40 frames between shots. It is apparent, therefore, that if
Governor Connally was even as late as frame 240, the President would
have to have been hit no later than frame 190 and probably even
earlier.
We have not yet examined the assassination scene to determine
whether the assassin in fact could have shot the President prior to
frame 190. We could locate the position on the ground which
corresponds to this frame and it would then be our intent to establish
by photography that the assassin would have fired the first shot at the
President prior to this point.
Our intention is not to establish the point with complete accuracy,
but merely to substantiate the hypothesis which underlies the conclusions that Oswald was the sole assassin.
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - William Charleston - 07-02-2016
David Josephs Wrote:It's one thing to say that shots where fired further down Elm... it's another to prove it.
Altgens claims the shots came when JFK was within 15 feet of him and that he missed that photo.
Moorman's photo makes it appear as if JFK is at the Z313 location to the EAST of the cones and identified shots from this following graphic.
The #2 FBI cone is obviously just in front of that black asphalt patch.
Yet as the inset overhead view shows... that leads directly to Altgens and the yellow curb by his feet.
Once we accept that these shots were indeed fired and that the FBI/SS must have had source material to support these placements
The films and photos of the shooting itself is only captured by a handful of images: Zapruder, Nix & Muchmore with a single photo by Moorman (the Bronson frames are not very clear).
There are no other images of the shooting itself. Bell is just after and helps prove the removal of Chaney with the McIntyre photo.
Ther is no way to line up FBI cone #2 and Moorman from the Zapruder pedastal (top left)
Somehow at least this shot if not a few more are removed from the evidentiary record.
If I am watching the Z film in its current state we can see EXACTLY where a headshot is shown
yet none of the SS/FBI locations matches to it.
The conclusion we must draw from this is that the FBI and SS saw source materials that are completely different from the evidence available today.
Zapruder's film alteration is not too hard to track, Nix's original is gone and Muchmore claims to have NEVER taken any footage of the shooting.
Moorman cannot be equated to any of these shots while both the SS and FBi have shot occurring after z313
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?
Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots. But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen.
Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?
Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?
Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three. There have got to be more than three shots.
Representative FORD. Is that why you have described--
Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.
Mr. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you have described, "My God, what are they doing?"
Mr. KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots.
Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time-at the time--this flurry of shots came into it.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration--
Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.
I love how a FLURRY OF SHOTS can come between two identified shots #2 & #3 - wouldn't that make shot #3 = shot #2 + a flurry of shots ???.
This also confirms there being another shot after Hill gets on the limo... which is not shown in the evidence.... Part 3 in the works... CTKA will be reposting Part 1 with Part 2 shortly...
DJ
WHY did Kellerman think the last two shots were BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart?
Why did this witness think the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUagGiWd5cY
Why did this witness think the last two shots were BANG-BANG?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NNcYG-m08g
WHY did DOZENS of witnesses think the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart? You'll forgive me but I am NOT going to paste links to dozens more witnesses who said the last two shots were BANG-BANG but this fact is finding more and more attention as many JFKers start to realize the gubermint lied to them.
The NEXT clip shows only ONE witness who says he heard the last two shots fired BANG-BANG BUT (and all after BUT is usually BS, but NOT in this case) it turns out THREE of the SIX witnesses CBS showed (Dan Rather and Walter Cronkite) actually thought two of the shots were fired BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zhXTW3ySUY
It turns out CBS (which I think is more accurately called SEE BS) played a large part in allowing the conspiracy to succeed. Walter and Dan weren't co-conspirators, they were useful idiots. If the gubermint said it, the two stooges at SEE BS repeated it.
STARTING here (with the observation that MANY witnesses thought the last two shots were fired a split second apart)
allows YOU to SOLVE the JFK shooting mystery. What witnesses say they heard PROVES NOTHING BUT fortunately, there is other evidence that allows us to prove that the BANG-BANG witnesses were right and the gubermint was wrong. Along the way to finding the truth is that anyone with an IQ much above room temperature will begin to realize the only way for BANG-BANG to be hidden is for the gubermint to have forged MASSIVE amounts of evidence. Once you realize that is true, you will begin to see the immense power behind the assassination behind the conspiracy to kill JFK.
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 08-02-2016
David Josephs Wrote:Now isn't 207 chosen as the first frame from which a 6th floor shot could clear the tree and hit it's target?
Could be. Do you believe that West acquiesced to this?
Yet NPIC notes show us LIFE thought #1 was at 190. NPIC said 206 or 213 and NPIC, Dino, questioned how #1 AND #2 were determined
I still believe the 190 location is based partly/completely on the Breneman error. 206 is close enough. Do you know what frames Dino determined to be shots?
In neither NPIC assumption do we have enough time to reload and fire...
Couldn't agree more. Take a shot before the Stemmons sign and one behind and/or after, compress, and have it occur behind the Stemmons sign at Station# 3+81.3 (so labeled as shot#1 on the SS/FBI plat) whereas the WC couldn't determine exactly where the first shot/s occurred, how convenient.
NPIC seems pretty sure that 242 shows a shot... below is the collage of all these frames.
Do you think this NPIC viewing of the film shows 313 as seen in Moorman/Zap or is further down Elm as described by Altgens?
If you look at the stabilized gif I supplied (earlier in thread) of Altgens in the extant Zfilm around z340-357, at some point his description (camera almost at eye level) in this current video link describes it. Did Altgens see the Zfilm at some point prior to his WC testimony, or the 1967 video?
http://www5.zippyshare.com/v/OMaACn4b/file.html
chris
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 08-02-2016
[/QUOTE]
WHY did Kellerman think the last two shots were BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart?
Why did this witness think the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUagGiWd5cY
Why did this witness think the last two shots were BANG-BANG?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NNcYG-m08g
WHY did DOZENS of witnesses think the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart? You'll forgive me but I am NOT going to paste links to dozens more witnesses who said the last two shots were BANG-BANG but this fact is finding more and more attention as many JFKers start to realize the gubermint lied to them.
The NEXT clip shows only ONE witness who says he heard the last two shots fired BANG-BANG BUT (and all after BUT is usually BS, but NOT in this case) it turns out THREE of the SIX witnesses CBS showed (Dan Rather and Walter Cronkite) actually thought two of the shots were fired BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zhXTW3ySUY
It turns out CBS (which I think is more accurately called SEE BS) played a large part in allowing the conspiracy to succeed. Walter and Dan weren't co-conspirators, they were useful idiots. If the gubermint said it, the two stooges at SEE BS repeated it.
STARTING here (with the observation that MANY witnesses thought the last two shots were fired a split second apart)
allows YOU to SOLVE the JFK shooting mystery. What witnesses say they heard PROVES NOTHING BUT fortunately, there is other evidence that allows us to prove that the BANG-BANG witnesses were right and the gubermint was wrong. Along the way to finding the truth is that anyone with an IQ much above room temperature will begin to realize the only way for BANG-BANG to be hidden is for the gubermint to have forged MASSIVE amounts of evidence. Once you realize that is true, you will begin to see the immense power behind the assassination behind the conspiracy to kill JFK.[/QUOTE]
Hi William,
Would the bang-bang possibly follow this course of injury in your opinion?
Quote Tom Purvis:
"6. Second shot at Z312/313 (some 5.6 to 5.9 seconds later) struck JFK just in the top rear/cowlick of the head. Sheared portion of skull over to side, bullet severely fragmented due to manner in which it exited the skull parallel against the skull bone, fragment from this headshot went forward to strike JBC in the wrist.
7. Bullet went through coat collar at edge of collar, struck at edge of hairline at base of JFK's neck, tunneled through soft flesh of he neck due to the well forward and almost head down position of JFK, struck in the EOP vicinity of the skull, passed through the mid-brain of the skull and exited in the frontal lobe.
Then continued forward to strike JBC in the right shoulder as JBC lay across the open area between the jump seats with his body pulled up into the fetal position.
The bullet penetrated through JBC's chest, exited the chest, and went on to strike and enter the left inner thigh of JBC."
I with-held the first part of the quote in#7 purposely which states "down in front of Altgens".
chris
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - David Josephs - 09-02-2016
Chris Davidson Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:Now isn't 207 chosen as the first frame from which a 6th floor shot could clear the tree and hit it's target?
Could be. Do you believe that West acquiesced to this? LIKE SO MANY OTHERS WEST PROBABLY DIDN'T KNOW ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. THE FBI/SS/LIFE TELLS HIM WHERE IT HIT AND DOES THE THE SURVEY FOR THAT POINT WHEN THE FBI ASKED HIM TO REMOVE A SHOT - PURVIS SAYS HE SAID HE JUST DID AS THEY ASKED.
Yet NPIC notes show us LIFE thought #1 was at 190. NPIC said 206 or 213 and NPIC, Dino, questioned how #1 AND #2 were determined
I still believe the 190 location is based partly/completely on the Breneman error. 206 is close enough. Do you know what frames Dino determined to be shots?
I THINK THE NPIC NOTES ON THE SHOT FRAMES ARE HIS - HE SAID 6-8 SHOTS FROM 3 DIRECTIONS WITH 206, 213, & 242 THE "OTHER POSSIBILITIES" FOR FRAMES WITH SHOTS EXCEPT I DONT SEE SHOTS ON THOSE EXTANT FRAMES
In neither NPIC assumption do we have enough time to reload and fire...
Couldn't agree more. Take a shot before the Stemmons sign and one behind and/or after, compress, and have it occur behind the Stemmons sign at Station# 3+81.3 (so labeled as shot#1 on the SS/FBI plat) whereas the WC couldn't determine exactly where the first shot/s occurred, how convenient.
NPIC seems pretty sure that 242 shows a shot... below is the collage of all these frames.
Do you think this NPIC viewing of the film shows 313 as seen in Moorman/Zap or is further down Elm as described by Altgens?
If you look at the stabilized gif I supplied (earlier in thread) of Altgens in the extant Zfilm around z340-357, at some point his description (camera almost at eye level) in this current video link describes it. Did Altgens see the Zfilm at some point prior to his WC testimony, or the 1967 video?
http://www5.zippyshare.com/v/OMaACn4b/file.html
chris
I DONT KNOW IF ALTGENS SAW THE FILM - I DOUBT IT.
I do have a couple anomalies if you can help me understand
1) will shadow move to such an extreme angle in such a short distance off center?
2) SPEAKING OF ALTGENS - SAW THIS IN A VIDEO AND HAD TO SEE FOR MYSELF
ON Z351 & Z353 IT APPEARS THAT ALTGENS SHADOW ON THE CURB IS REVERSED.
Altgens in the extant Zfilm around z340-357, So Chris - can you tell me if this is a real thing or not?
from 351 - 354 it looks as if his leg shadows flip-flop... right thru the spot Altgens claims JFK would have been hit by a shot.
What are we seeing here?
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - Chris Davidson - 09-02-2016
David,
You'll have to ask someone who is well versed on film and shadows.
There is discussion about it, here:
http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,13040.0.html
chris
The SS and FBI place 4 shots in and around Z313 - just not Z313 - William Charleston - 09-02-2016
WHY did Kellerman think the last two shots were BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart?
Why did this witness think the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUagGiWd5cY
Why did this witness think the last two shots were BANG-BANG?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NNcYG-m08g
WHY did DOZENS of witnesses think the last two shots were fired BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart? You'll forgive me but I am NOT going to paste links to dozens more witnesses who said the last two shots were BANG-BANG but this fact is finding more and more attention as many JFKers start to realize the gubermint lied to them.
The NEXT clip shows only ONE witness who says he heard the last two shots fired BANG-BANG BUT (and all after BUT is usually BS, but NOT in this case) it turns out THREE of the SIX witnesses CBS showed (Dan Rather and Walter Cronkite) actually thought two of the shots were fired BANG-BANG, two shots fired a split second apart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zhXTW3ySUY
It turns out CBS (which I think is more accurately called SEE BS) played a large part in allowing the conspiracy to succeed. Walter and Dan weren't co-conspirators, they were useful idiots. If the gubermint said it, the two stooges at SEE BS repeated it.
STARTING here (with the observation that MANY witnesses thought the last two shots were fired a split second apart)
allows YOU to SOLVE the JFK shooting mystery. What witnesses say they heard PROVES NOTHING BUT fortunately, there is other evidence that allows us to prove that the BANG-BANG witnesses were right and the gubermint was wrong. Along the way to finding the truth is that anyone with an IQ much above room temperature will begin to realize the only way for BANG-BANG to be hidden is for the gubermint to have forged MASSIVE amounts of evidence. Once you realize that is true, you will begin to see the immense power behind the assassination behind the conspiracy to kill JFK.[/QUOTE]
Hi William,
Would the bang-bang possibly follow this course of injury in your opinion?
Quote Tom Purvis:
"6. Second shot at Z312/313 (some 5.6 to 5.9 seconds later) struck JFK just in the top rear/cowlick of the head. Sheared portion of skull over to side, bullet severely fragmented due to manner in which it exited the skull parallel against the skull bone, fragment from this headshot went forward to strike JBC in the wrist.
7. Bullet went through coat collar at edge of collar, struck at edge of hairline at base of JFK's neck, tunneled through soft flesh of he neck due to the well forward and almost head down position of JFK, struck in the EOP vicinity of the skull, passed through the mid-brain of the skull and exited in the frontal lobe.
Then continued forward to strike JBC in the right shoulder as JBC lay across the open area between the jump seats with his body pulled up into the fetal position.
The bullet penetrated through JBC's chest, exited the chest, and went on to strike and enter the left inner thigh of JBC."
I with-held the first part of the quote in#7 purposely which states "down in front of Altgens".
chris[/QUOTE]
The BANG-BANG is ALSO shown in what can be argued as the BEST evidence in the JFK assassination but the effects of BOTH BANG-BANG SHOTS can easily be seen in the Zapruder film.
BUT first your quote:
"The bullet penetrated through JBC's chest, exited the chest, and went on to strike and enter the left inner thigh of JBC."
Dr. Robert Shaw, who described himself as Connally's chief surgeon, said there was NOT a bullet that hit Connally in the left thigh, it was a bullet FRAGMENT.
https://vimeo.com/130545091
If you watch the first few minutes of the 1988 25th anniversary of NOVA, you will see Dr. Shaw say the wound to Connally's left thigh was caused by a bullet fragment, not a bullet. What is the significance of that fact? You'll also see the orderly who said the bullet found on a stretcher WAS NOT CONNALLY'S stretcher meaning the bullet was planted. That is, if you listen to the witnesses, not the government.
The Warren Commission (representing the US government) had to show it was a bullet that hit Connally's left thigh because it was part of the SBT scenario. If the SBT (single bullet theory) did NOT happen as hypothesized, then the WC scenarios quickly collapse into chaos. Dr. Shaw' statement of "a bullet fragment" hitting Connally's left thigh alone kills the SBT.
Since Dr. Shaw drives a HUGE spike into the heart of the SBT, what did happen?
1. Exactly when was Governor Connally struck in the back by a bullet?
2. Exactly when was Gov. Connally struck in the left thigh with a bullet fragment?
You can solve the JFK shooting "mystery" if you can correctly answer these two questions AND along the way, show how to prove your hypothesis is correct.​