Albert Doyle Wrote:Drew,


The doubters are ignoring Fratini's Allen photo that showed a man just behind the glass in the portal. The foyer where that man was standing is on the same level as the portal landing. Fratini took the Darnell frame of Prayer man and aligned it next to the Allen photo of this man so they were side by side. Although Prayer Man's shins and feet are not visible this juxtaposition made it absolutely clear that this man in the Allen photo and Prayer Man had perfectly matching body proportions. What this means is Prayer Man was 100% standing on the landing and not on the first step down. Parker and Kamp have a problem because they said they thought Prayer Man was standing on the first step down because he was obviously too short. They said this obvious lack of height was explained by Prayer Man being on the first step down. Fratini's Allen photo evidence is brilliant because one look at it instantly makes clear that for Prayer Man to be on the first step down would require a grotesque extension of his legs from the shins down. Parker has a problem because he admitted he saw that Prayer Man was too short. Once Fratini proved Prayer Man was on the landing Parker had no comment. Parker doesn't want to admit he himself just proved Prayer Man can't be Oswald.


I think the landing is 4 feet wide because the glass door doesn't go past it when opened if you look at photos of the portal.



http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php/topic,8916.4144.html



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Quote:Heads Up!

With a tip of the hat to Mr. Hargrove (Jim), for caring enough about the research community to sound the alarm, please be aware folks that your comments may be in jeopardy of conveying more or less than what you are actually sharing, given the less than forthcoming tactics shared here --à....

Alan Ford Wrote:.......
Well said, Mr. Cross, appreciate the sensible reply chock full of wisdom.

That said, I respectfully ask a Moderator to shut my thread down at this point, before it's original premise is lost in the potential mushrooms that may form or evolve around it.

However, as we shut this down in hopes that should anyone have any further disagreement(s) over Mr. Armstrong's research with someone else they take the matter up via PM mode.

That said, don't let it be lost upon anyone, actual members and/or "Guests" reading along to what great length how the researcher Mr. Hargrove warns about would rather "win" with the last word however contrived or bias towards his fellow researchers. Thought I'd never see the day when someone wants to "win" so bad that misconstruing the words/context of others is more important than arriving at the genuine truth?!

Lee Harvey Oswald is an innocent victim.

Drew Phipps Wrote:With all due respect Alan, that's a bunch of horse puckey. If Frazier's height is "too big" because PP is behind him (the way the guys is the foreground of the picnic photo are "too big" compared to Oswald), how is it possible for PP to be on a lower step than Frazier?

Thank you, Mr. Trotter, for your concise and well reasoned post.

Alan Ford Wrote:So there's no confusion here, Mr. Phipps, I don't place Prayer Man "behind" (I actually place his position forward of Mr. Frazier, given his right elbow placement on the pillar considerably forward of Mr. Frazier's position further back).

<----note the wrongfully accused's right elbow on the pillar...

Now, note the distance the pillar sits forward of the 3 feet landing space where Mr. Frazier stood towering above...

Mr. Darnell's image captures Prayer Man's right elbow upon the pillar. Also, it's not frivolous to believe Prayer Man is also leaning back upon the pillar as well for support. People who lean like that also lose inches to their full height as well.

Albert Doyle Wrote:

Alan Ford Wrote:So there's no confusion here, Mr. Phipps, I don't place Prayer Man "behind" (I actually place his position forward of Mr. Frazier, given his right elbow placement on the pillar considerably forward of Mr. Frazier's position further back).

<----note the wrongfully accused's right elbow on the pillar...

Now, note the distance the pillar sits forward of the 3 feet landing space where Mr. Frazier stood towering above...

Mr. Darnell's image captures Prayer Man's right elbow upon the pillar. Also, it's not frivolous to believe Prayer Man is also leaning back upon the pillar as well for support. People who lean like that also lose inches to their full height as well.

Sorry Alan but you can't ignore the Fratini evidence I posted that makes it more than clear that Prayer Man is standing on the landing.

The reason you can't place Prayer Man too far forward from Frazier is because of the very limitations of the portal landing that you yourself cite. The front edge would keep that from occurring and not allow Prayer Man to be far enough forward to affect my arguments. It is impossible for Prayer Man to be "considerably forward" of Frazier because the first step down creates a border that limits that distance to a negligible length. Prayer Man is roughly even with Frazier where both individuals went as far forward in the portal on the landing as they could without stepping down. This conforms to human behavior. This is the correct orientation of Prayer Man and Frazier according to all known evidence. With that established, science demands that any serious analyzer answer to the obvious height difference this incurs. Mr Josephs must heed to this because it is firm and accurate science as shown right here in front of you.

Prayer Man is not leaning. He is facing Frazier with both hands grasping something as even Kamp foolishly admitted without realizing the consequences. Kamp announced a departure from the internet immediately after I exposed him doing that but never followed-through. Mr Parker said Prayer Man's left elbow was reflected in the glass. When I pointed out to him that there was no such reflection in other frames he had no answer.

Mr Ford: It is entirely foolish for you to not realize you have just confirmed my direct height comparison argument and disproven Prayer Man as Oswald by your own entry.

I was quite serious when I said this was proof.

LR Trotter Wrote:The distance from the landing steps to the doorway appears to be no more than 3 feet, looking at the picture from the lobby. So, to me it appears that PP can't be far from the steps, and not much farther inward than BWF. The camera angle may slightly distort the relative heights of PP and BWF, but I would think it is a minimal distortion.
As for PrayerPerson, I have yet to see convincing proof that the person pictured is a male. And, what appears to be possibly a left arm may not be that, as possibly it is a purse. Also, I am having trouble determining the direction PP's head is facing, as seen in the still/picture.
Regarding BWF, I have to wonder, as I wander, if maybe he is sitting on, or leaning on a handrail that appears to be in the center of the porch/landing stairway. That being said, I do believe there is a measurable height difference between PP and the taller looking BWF.
And then there is LHO, and the question of his whereabouts at 12:30pm CST on 11/22/'63, as well as presented evidence that indicates the possibility that he was a shooter during the assassination of JFK. But, even if it could be proved he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD during the shooting, to me the presented evidence is well short of proof that he was a shooter.
While I do not wish to continue participation in this discussion, and hopefully avoid any argument as well, I am amazed it continues. I do believe, as do others much smarter than I, that this issue is long ago settled. And, IMO not at all pertinent to current understanding. In any event, JMO, FWIW.

David Josephs Wrote:

LR Trotter Wrote:The distance from the landing steps to the doorway appears to be no more than 3 feet, looking at the picture from the lobby. So, to me it appears that PP can't be far from the steps, and not much farther inward than BWF. The camera angle may slightly distort the relative heights of PP and BWF, but I would think it is a minimal distortion.
As for PrayerPerson, I have yet to see convincing proof that the person pictured is a male. And, what appears to be possibly a left arm may not be that, as possibly it is a purse. Also, I am having trouble determining the direction PP's head is facing, as seen in the still/picture.
Regarding BWF, I have to wonder, as I wander, if maybe he is sitting on, or leaning on a handrail that appears to be in the center of the porch/landing stairway. That being said, I do believe there is a measurable height difference between PP and the taller looking BWF.
And then there is LHO, and the question of his whereabouts at 12:30pm CST on 11/22/'63, as well as presented evidence that indicates the possibility that he was a shooter during the assassination of JFK. But, even if it could be proved he was on the 6th floor of the TSBD during the shooting, to me the presented evidence is well short of proof that he was a shooter.
While I do not wish to continue participation in this discussion, and hopefully avoid any argument as well, I am amazed it continues. I do believe, as do others much smarter than I, that this issue is long ago settled. And, IMO not at all pertinent to current understanding. In any event, JMO, FWIW.

Can you or anyone please post a photo of Wesley in that spot prior to Darnell?






This I believe is even more critical.

When did Lovelady move from the far left to the middle of the landing...?

In the HUGHES film frame capture we see Altgens' Lovelady character far to the left of the landing as the limo turns the corner
In WEIGMAN, from virtually the same angle, Lovelady is now in the middle of the landing...

It was at this turn that Truly claims the limo swung WIDE and almost hit the island curb, almost stopped, and then swung back.

It is missing from Zap and somehow is not shown in Towner.

So 3 questions -

1) where's tall Wesley
2) when does Lovelady move and
3) how does he show up in Martin when by his own admission he and Shelley were in the back by the loading dock for quite a while after the shots.

Quote:Brilliant, Mr. Josephs, what have these people done in the name of "national security"?

Your three questions are indicative of what a genuine investigation into this matter would have laid out in a fair and square manner right from the very beginning.

Am venturing over to Mr. Kelly's (Bill) to determine if he may have some floor plans/dimensions of the TSBD entrance way. Enjoy your day, Mr. Josephs, Cheers!

Quote:I think the landing is 4 feet wide because the glass door doesn't go past it when opened if you look at photos of the portal.

Alan Ford Wrote:First, it's merely your opinion that Prayer Man is not leaning. We get that you created in your own mind that you have magical measuring prowess void of actually being on the scene of the intended objects to be measured; however, suffice it to say we have to draw the line somewhere sir and reel you in. Fasten your seat belt please.

Alan Ford Wrote:In respect to Mr. Frantini, Mr. Parker and Mr. Kamp, where are you going to find people with more due diligence? People who genuinely care about advancing this issue in a way indicative of the justice JFK deserves.

Alan Ford Wrote:Now, having said that, Mr. Doyle, rely less upon your own opinions, and accept the considerable distance between (not what I'm saying) but what the photographic evidence clearly shows in Mr. Darnell's image where the wrongfully accused's right elbow rests upon the pillar...a pillar mind you that in the image looking outward of the TSBD rests beyond the 3 foot landing, where Mr. Frazier is seen towering over everyone else in Mr. Darnell's photo.

Alan Ford Wrote:I await evidence of your medical degree that allows you to determine where and when someone is leaning or not. Go ahead, make my day.

Meanwhile, please note Prayer Man's right elbow...



and, once again, see how forward of Mr. Frazier's position the pillar, where his right elbow rests, is by being honest instead of relying upon your opinion.