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+--- Thread: The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis (/thread-5631.html)
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Jan Klimkowski - 05-02-2011
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:The reason you cannot compare Florida to Chicago is simple:
There was no Bolden, there was no Black.
Therefore, the facts and documentation are lacking to make any comparisons.
We can't go by anything Waldron says about what happened in Florida; for he has proven to be unreliable in the extreme, and completely agenda driven.
Jim - this is the Florida assassination plot, allegedly planned for November 18, and later written about by Waldron, that you're referencing here?
Quote:JFK ASSASSINATION WAS PLANNED FOR TAMPA FL ON NOVEMBER 18TH 1963 BY TAMPA GODFATHER SANTO TRAFFICANTE
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Charles Drago - 05-02-2011
Charles Drago Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:I don't know why you are up in arms about my observation about comparing FLorida to CHicago. I disagree Charles. The Chicago Plot was real.
Jim,
I'm certainly not "up in arms."
Please re-read my previous post for tone, and direct your attention to this short paragraph:
"We disagree. So what? God forbid we march in lockstep."
Let me state again for clarity: The purposes of this thread -- and, for that matter, my earlier "JFK would have been hit even if he played ball with the Unspeakable" offering -- are to stimulate outside-the-box thinking, and to refine and expand our perceptions.
At this stage of the Chicago investigation -- and you're right, Black's is the only work on the subject that rises to the level of that term -- there is no basis for claims of objective truth.
We press on. I'm pleased that we disagree, for out of such intellectual conflict there often arises enlightenment.
Charles
I apologize for not reading "Florida" in your posts. I was too wrapped up in the Chicago-Dallas hypothesis.
Based on what I know of Florida, I believe that it too was a ruse.
Chicago would have False Sponsored the Giancana-led Mob.
Florida would have False Sponsored the Trafficante-Led Mob, anti-Castro Cubans, or Fidel himself.
Dallas took care of all four, plus the ULTIMATE False Sponsor: Lyndon Baines Johnson.
The bastards were clever AND efficient.
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Charles Drago - 05-02-2011
Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:The reason you cannot compare Florida to Chicago is simple:
There was no Bolden, there was no Black.
Therefore, the facts and documentation are lacking to make any comparisons.
We can't go by anything Waldron says about what happened in Florida; for he has proven to be unreliable in the extreme, and completely agenda driven.
Jim - this is the Florida assassination plot, allegedly planned for November 18, and later written about by Waldron, that you're referencing here?
Quote:JFK ASSASSINATION WAS PLANED FOR TAMPA FL ON NOVEMBER 18TH 1963 BY TAMPA GODFATHER SANTO TRAFFICANTE
Jan,
Gerry Patrick Hemming claimed that he was sent to the Tampa airport to protect JFK -- perhaps as part of a Plumlee-like "abort" mission. He swore that he and members of his Interpen team were standing next to the presidential limousine.
The problem is, neither GPH nor any of his Merry Men are visible in the scores of photos taken of JFK in his car on the tarmac at a point in time when GPH -- according to his own story -- should have been in the frames.
GPH was called out on this during his first public grilling staged at a JFK Lancer conference. I sat on the panel of questioners. The chair, Gordon Winslow, challenged his friend Gerry to account for the Tampa photo discrepencies. GPH responded with something along the lines of, "We both know why you can't see me."
Winslow moved on.
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Jim DiEugenio - 05-02-2011
Albert Doyle Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:I disagree Charles. The Chicago Plot was real.
If you look at this they wanted to get Kennedy one way or the other. Any details could be covered-up by their take-over of the government with the Warren Commission. So it is feasible Oswald was going to be the patsy for the Chicago assassination somehow by means of the license registration. Vallee was discovered not by "Lee's" warning but by a landlady stumbling-in.
SHow me the documents about the license registration. As I said, Black found out they were blacked out. Why would they now become visible? And what sense would it make if you already had Vallee there on the scene in front of the motorcade? Why register the car to a guy who 1.) Did not drive 2.) Was in Dallas, and 3.) Could produce an alibi.
As I said, especially when you had what was in some ways a better patsy there already.
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Jim DiEugenio - 05-02-2011
Charles Drago Wrote:Jan Klimkowski Wrote:Jim DiEugenio Wrote:The reason you cannot compare Florida to Chicago is simple:
There was no Bolden, there was no Black.
Therefore, the facts and documentation are lacking to make any comparisons.
We can't go by anything Waldron says about what happened in Florida; for he has proven to be unreliable in the extreme, and completely agenda driven.
Jim - this is the Florida assassination plot, allegedly planned for November 18, and later written about by Waldron, that you're referencing here?
Quote:JFK ASSASSINATION WAS PLANED FOR TAMPA FL ON NOVEMBER 18TH 1963 BY TAMPA GODFATHER SANTO TRAFFICANTE
Jan,
Gerry Patrick Hemming claimed that he was sent to the Tampa airport to protect JFK -- perhaps as part of a Plumlee-like "abort" mission. He swore that he and members of his Interpen team were standing next to the presidential limousine.
The problem is, neither GPH nor any of his Merry Men are visible in the scores of photos taken of JFK in his car on the tarmac at a point in time when GPH -- according to his own story -- should have been in the frames.
GPH was called out on this during his first public grilling staged at a JFK Lancer conference. I sat on the panel of questioners. The chair, Gordon Winslow, challenged his friend Gerry to account for the Tampa photo discrepencies. GPH responded with something along the lines of, "We both know why you can't see me."
Winslow moved on.
Oh no. Two professional disinformation artists: Winslow and Hemmings.
Three if you count Waldron.
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Charles Drago - 05-02-2011
I join Jim in expressing the need to see documentary proof of the license plate business.
Merely to speculate: The Vallee/LHO license plate gambit may have been played long after the fact in order to muddy the investigative waters. It's the cognitive dissonance game.
As for Vallee being "in some ways a better patsy": This one I don't buy. At least not until we can determine that Vallee tracked back to deeply buried intel ops the likes of which (the false defector games, the Albert Schweitzer College provocation, HTLINGUAL, etc.) LHO had been exposed to/involved in.
LHO was the perfect patsy in part because a full investigation of his role -- if any -- in the assassination would have uncovered multiple secret and illegal operations that even the highest-minded inside investigators would be persuaded to keep hidden.
Plus LHO was connected -- sometimes tenuously, sometimes not -- to any number of False Sponsors.
Again, we must compare the Chicago/Vallee veneer to the Dallas/LHO depths. The former either was or wasn't constructed as a razor-thin Dallas image with just enough depth to make a post-foiling Dallas stand-down acceptable. The frustrating fact of the matter is that we just aren't benefiting from nearly 50 years of Chicago study.
Hence the hypothetical nature of my interpretation of Chicago and its roles in the bigger picture.
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Charles Drago - 05-02-2011
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:[quote=Charles Drago] Oh no. Two professional disinformation artists: Winslow and Hemmings.
Three if you count Waldron.
It's odd, Jim. I met and socialized with Winslow on many occasions and found him to be a charming, erudite, mordantly funny guy. In other words, I liked him. Still do.
Yet personal feelings aside, I have problems with his Florida work and with his close relationship to Hemming.
Perhaps you've experienced this sort of disconnect -- getting to know someone who, absent that personal knowledge, you would have no hesitation in judging harshly if the facts warranted such a judgement, but who you hesitate to be harsh with due to the positive nature of your acquaintance.
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Albert Doyle - 05-02-2011
Charles Drago Wrote:I don't buy the "landlady stumbling-in" plot (as in literary plot) device. For my hypothesis to work, precisely such a "discovery" had to be made.
And don't conflate the conspirators' pre-assassination needs with their post-assassination requirements. Before JFK was eliminated, they needed maximum security for their plot as it unfolded.
The ruse of Chicago was created to facilitate the elevation of the plotters to positions of strength.
I think the problem here is we are dealing with a movable plan that was, by its own nature, changeable as it went. These are highly complex plotters so it is possible the plan had a plastic nature where alternates existed at the same time and could be executed at any time. The problem we are having here could be that we are trying fix a definite strategy onto an indefinite plot that could have gone either way. In that case both sides could be right to a certain degree.
I tend to lean towards Dallas being the original plan because there were too many final arrangements set-up there before Chicago that indicated Dallas being the intended city. Dealey Plaza is a much more ideal killing zone than the Chicago ramp. Also, the rifles being carelessly left out indicates a patsy crew instead of top level shooters. The rifle mistake would never have occurred in Dallas (or did it with the men seen with a rifle at the picket fence and the stopped truck by the knoll???). Perhaps the shooters were out looking for crossfire ambush spots when the landlady found the rifles?
Another thing that should be considered is the fact 3 rifles were found in Chicago. What that tells you is there were multiple shooters in this diversion plot. We can assume these plots were tied, so it is a reasonable assumption that there were multiple rifles in Dallas as well.
Another thing that dawned on me is Oswald's "I'm a patsy" was followed by a claim that he was only being arrested because he had once defected to the Soviet Union. So if we further interpret my theory about the police station we can wonder if Oswald was induced to operate under the assumption he would eventually be cleared under this guise. Oswald is deliberately denied legal representation at his arraignment AND announces he is being arrested only because he's a defector scapegoat. In other words Oswald is going through the motions because he's confident these things will eventually be used to break the case against him and get him off. So the patsy protest is part of this Fair Play routine and Oswald maintaining cover while expecting his people to get him off.
If the Chicago plan managed to kill Kennedy we can speculate what other purposes Oswald would have served? He was still useful on many levels including possibly delivering a virus to Cuba. Although you would think Oswald was somewhat overqualified to simply deliver a virus package to Cuba. That could be done by anybody and would probably be much more effectively done by an unknown with less attention on him.
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Jim DiEugenio - 05-02-2011
CD:
Point 1: What I meant about Vallee being in some ways an even better patsy than Oswald was his head injury which his sister told DOuglass about. This allowed for the whole disability angle to be exploited. See, this was what was lacking with Oswald. THat is why Shaw and Ferrie were sent up to Clinton-Jackson to try and get his file into the mental hospital. But the problem is, too many people saw them at the voter registration drive.
Point 2: That was my own experience with Winslow also. Then I began to listen to what he was actually saying at these conferences. Alpha 66 was really just a fund raising outfit? Eladio Del Valle's death really had nothing to do with the JFK case? Then he began to stick up for Hemmings? I could tell you a doozy about what he did to Milicent Cranor and Lisa Pease, but I won't. But after awhile it just got too much.
If you read my essay entitled "How Gary Mack became Dan Rather", you will see that I group him with the disinformation wave sent out to infiltrate and then split us off and attack us at the time of Stone's film. And they were quite successful. Let us not forget, one of the things Winslow did was to create a directory of the fields of specialty of each researcher which included his home phone and address.
Made to order right? He knew what everyone was researching and where they lived.
The Chicago Plot: A Hypothesis - Albert Doyle - 05-02-2011
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:[
SHow me the documents about the license registration. As I said, Black found out they were blacked out. Why would they now become visible? And what sense would it make if you already had Vallee there on the scene in front of the motorcade? Why register the car to a guy who 1.) Did not drive 2.) Was in Dallas, and 3.) Could produce an alibi.
As I said, especially when you had what was in some ways a better patsy there already.
It's very possible "Oswald's car" was simply there by happenstance because of the many sheep-dipping operations like the buying of the trucks for Cuba etc that were happening. Lee Harvey Oswald appears to be a spook credit card account like the CIA's Alfred E Newman. I don't doubt the license plate business at all because it conforms to the many other instances of 'Oswald' showing up in unexplainable places doing covert stuff.
It seems the alleged plate number could be easily verified through investigating the car associated with it and its history. If there was ever a need for duplicated files being discovered in some forgotten storage area this is it.