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Grassy knoll=diversion - Bernice Moore - 07-04-2013
I am not sure now if i posted John Judges information..gee i wonder why...
so in case i did not..here is the link...thanks all for your patience and allowing all this to be collected and posted in this thread and elsewhere on the Forum..i believe that is it....:cheer:..best bhttp://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html
Sewer Shot in JFK Assassination
Grassy knoll=diversion - Bernice Moore - 07-04-2013
Ok i lied...:rofl::rofl: i forgot, of course i did..:nono:.here is the link to the new photos showing possible escape route's re the sewer drains, etc....to Greg Burnham's site...thank you..Sir...
Even if this was not the spot from which the fatal shot was fired,
it could have been, and should have been covered and investigated.
Why have most people never even heard of this obvious possibility?:thumbsup:
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:http://jfktruth.org/drain/index.htm
Grassy knoll=diversion - Bernice Moore - 07-04-2013
I do not think i posted the information from Al Carrier...i believe his is important with all his past experience with weaponry , ballistics etc..thanks Al...
Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation]at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory.". ...) note:Found in body of below post
Reference All Carrier's post of Nov. 25, 2004:
"....I have been seriously researching the JFK Assassination for some fourteen years. What I bring into it is a background in weaponry, ballistics, crime scene investigative techniques and an understanding for sniper deployment and procedures. I have never accepted the official version of a lone sniper achieving the feat from a location 60' above in the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. Then add to this official account, the capabilities of the weapon and shooter that was accepted by the Warren Commission and later the HSCA, it was ridiculous.
Wound ballistics became an immediate issue when I began researching the Kennedy assassination in order to determine a shot origin. While there is overwhelming evidence in my opinion of a shooter on the north knoll at the time of the assassination, I had issues with this angle of trajectory creating the head wound suffered by President Kennedy. The discovery of Badgeman by Jack White and Gary Mack in the Mooreman Photograph, witnesses who reported hearing shot(s) on the north knoll, Gordon Arnold's reporting of a shooter there, as well as other sightings of shooters and smoke from that origin, leaves no doubt in my mind that shot(s) were fired from this location. That does not necessarily mean that the head wound was inflicted by this shot origin and in my opinion from my background in weaponry and wound ballistics, I believe that it was not.
There are issues to consider when determining a point of entrance. The greater fracturing of the skull will occur forward of the point of impact as the energy from the penetrating projectile will radiate forward along the trajectory path of the initial penetration point. As seen in the Zapruder film and after the lightening of the top of the head autopsy photos, a large defect was also found high on the head, right of midline and a flap of scalp and partial skull bone was attached to the flap. This is created when the penetration trajectory is shallow below the skull, creating the energy dispersion to push out against the fractured bone.
By noting where the skull fracture and flap begins, it is logical that the point of entry is close to that location. By following the trajectory back to the massive wound in the right portion of the occipital parietal, which was clearly seen at Parkland Hospital by medical personnel, it shows a true line of trajectory and shot origin.
The challenge to this line of trajectory in support of shot origin of the north knoll comes from many researchers and is supported by forensic pathologist Dr. Cyril Wecht. Dr. Wecht believes that a shot fired from the north knoll, striking the right temporal/parietal region of the president's skull would DEFLECT and turn outward (left), maintaining a wound cavity to the right portion of the skull.
The problem with this is that penetration from a rifle caliber projectile that is traveling in excess of 1800fps and most likely above 2400fps, would not deviate outward, but actually slightly inward through skull penetration. The ratio of diameter v. length of the projectile penetrating through a multi-layed resistant surface, such as skull plating, would actually create a rollover effect through surface penetration. This would cause the projectile to turn slightly inward instead of deflecting upon penetration. This has been proven in wound ballistic testing through the work of Dr. Martin Fackler over the past twenty years and accepted by the NIJ in studies of wound ballistics in order to determine effectiveness in ballistic resistant materials in ballistic vests.
The problem this shot trajectory creates is that it shows a shot origin that is in conflict with the witnesses who made a determination on shot origin by what they heard. This shot trajectory would place a shot origin in the region of the south end of the overpass over some sixty feet to the south knoll parking lot. No witnesses reported hearing a shot from this location, other than one who has came forward as being part of an abort team. This witness I will address later.
With 200 plus witnesses in DP at the time of the assassination and none focusing on shots from this location, most researchers write off the likelihood of a south plaza shooter. They also have concerns with this exposed location. This can easily be explained by a common practice by military sniper teams in both urban and rural environments.
Often, the most ideal location for shot origin, especially on a moving target, is a location that exposes the shooter the greatest. Making the shot is only half the objective, the other is escaping either undetected or without being molested. The military found a practice to overcome this obstacle and it has been termed "Canyon Shoot". This practice utilizes multiple snipers from locations suited to draw attention to those origins where they cannot be accessed, or by allowing the terrain to confuse the shot origin to the enemy present. The term "Canyon Shoot" was unofficially adopted when Sgt. Alvin York utilized various shot origins and the echo effects of the terrain to fool the enemy into believing they were surrounded, when in fact it was only he who was shooting.
In the case of Dealey Plaza, a shooter firing from the Texas School Book Depository would initially fire and the other shooters in the plaza would cue off the Depository shooter by startle reaction and fire a round immediately on top of the shot fired by the Depository shooter. Witnesses would detect the first sound and roughly identify a shot origin and this would cover the fire of the others shooters, deeper in the plaza. The echo effect of the Plaza would also aid in making the witnesses believe that it was shot reverberation that they were hearing deeper in the plaza. With another shooter firing from the North Knoll, this would direct witnesses along Elm and at the intersection of Elm and Houston to focus their attention on the area between the Depository and the Knoll. By utilizing startle reaction to cue simultaneous fire from three locations, three shots could easily sound like one.
The closest known witnesses to the South End Overpass/South Knoll position were James Tague who was positioned on Commerce under the overpass, two Dallas Police Officers and nine railroad employees atop the underpass over Elm, and Tosh Plumlee and an associate who were on the bank of the South Knoll. Tague did not hear a shot originate from overhead or to his left and rear, but his perception could easily have been hampered by the extreme echo effects of all shots reverberating under the underpass. The persons atop the underpass did not detect the shot fired to their left, but their attention was on the approaching motorcade and their attention was drawn to the shots fired from the north knoll, which was in the direct of the approaching motorcade and of nearly equal distance in comparison to the south origin. Plumlee and his associate, who he has reported as being sent to Dallas as part of an assassinations abort team, clearly heard a shot fired from behind them, that would put it in line with the shot origin I have been describing. Plumlee was also ex-military and was their to stop an assassination attempt, so he would be prepared for the sounds he was about to hear. He apparently also recognized the ideal location of the south knoll region as that is where he chose to station himself.
The most recent challenge to the South End of the Overpass/South Knoll shot origin comes from Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack. Mack has come forward with new reporter Bob Jett, who has claimed to have been in the South Knoll Parking Lot eating his lunch at the time of the assassination. Jett has stated that he saw no assassin and heard no shots fired from that origin. Jett was working at the time of the assassination. My question as to his credibility and presence is why did he not immediately report on air, witnessing the assassination? Why was he not called upon by the Warren Commission to testify as to what he saw and did not see? The Warren Commission directed questions at most witnesses as to whether they heard or saw anything suspicious in this region. Wouldn't Jett have been the nail in the coffin they needed to disprove a shooter there?
Another established researcher who supports my belief of shot origin from the south end of overpass/south knoll region, is nationally recognized Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Expert and Instructor, Sherry Gutierrez. Sherry has presented at JFK Lancer November in Dallas Seminars in 2001 and 2003. In 2003, she partly focused on this shot origin. She has also produced threads on the Lancer Forum regarding this.
Beyond the headshot wound issue, I have also aligned this shot origin with the neck wound and have established it by showing Elm at a higher elevation at this point and how the shot would have to penetrate the windshield through its trajectory. This also explains the compromised velocity that would result in a shallower wound path. I have been challenged on this through photos including Altgens 6 and 7 and have provided arguments on both. Because this is already a rather complex subject, I will not go into detail on the throat wound.
Al Carrier ...". (End of Post
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15499&st=0
here are a couple of the plaza area i think are good views...have a good day all...thanks b
Grassy knoll=diversion - Gordon Gray - 08-04-2013
Wouldn't a shot from the south knoll have had to go through the windshield, possibly striking the driver and Jackie, as well as JFK? Wouldn't a frangible bullet fired from the fence on the north knoll be consistent with the President's head wounds?
Grassy knoll=diversion - Bernice Moore - 08-04-2013
Hi Gordon; i will take a stab at this but do not expect too much as i am not in the least knowledgeable as an Al Carrier or such....I will say i studied under Doug Weldon for some years trying to comprehend all, i found one of the best at figuring trajectories was Bill Miller back then...but i do not, cannot speak for him...that helped some, from what i understand there was a opening a view to hit JFK , from a south area shot, as well as from the north side drain area overpass.. the reason why his Doc.Burkley was shifted by the SS into the back of the motorcade area...that made a clear shot, as i understand from such as Al's information as well as information from Tosh, the shooters would be the best, first class, ad similar shots would be no burden......i believe now all three were possible, whether it happened that way, i do not know, my only advice is to perhaps search for trajectory information from such as Carrier, Tosh and Craig,on the web... i think his name is who has a book on shooting and such,and is a specialist at such...and i believe one of the best shooters there is... but sorry, his name is gone, sheesh.....but imo, do not go with any one...compare, information,and see what say between three advisors jells, as that will be pretty solid information.sorry i cannot really help you..also try to get into Tom Wilson's information....and check out trajectorys, there much be much of Bill's informational posts at Lancer to search for...we never got on that well as we differed much in certain areas but i respected and still do his knowledge of such...also google for Chris Davisons work with the Zapruder film as the trajectorys come into play in a big way.....if i find anything in my files i will post it for you, thanks and take care...b
Grassy knoll=diversion - Bernice Moore - 08-04-2013
Gordon; here is a study thread by Tosh on that subject perhaps information will be posted that will help you...fwiw..b
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2390&st=15
here is another, i hope these may help...b
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6386
Sherry Guitierrez provided an excellent presentation on Trajectory Analysis applied to the Assassination of JFK. Sherry has testified as an expert in crime scene reconstruction and bloodstain pattern analysis in over 30 judicial districts in the states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Florida. Sherry is currently employed as a consultant to attorneys and law enforcement officials. She is also a member of the International Association of Bloodstain Pattern Analysts and Association for Crime Scene Reconstruction.
I found Sherry's views on the position of the gunman who fired the shot that hit JFK in the head very stimulating. I would be interested in what some of our gun experts think of this theory. Sherry is a member of the Forum and hopefully she will answer your questions. You will find the presentation here:
http://www.jfklancerforum.com/sherryg/
The presentation ends with the following statement.
The blood examined in photographs and films, and described in the statements of witnesses in the homicide of John Kennedy, seem to describe back spatter to the immediate front of the President. There is no conflict to this supposition within any witness statements or in any blood evidence documented in video and photographs. Additionally, the Zapruder film reveals a violent movement of JFK's head to the rear, corresponding to the targets in the experiments. Therefore, it is my opinion the bloodstain evidence is consistent with the injury to John F. Kennedy's head being the result of a single gunshot from the right front..
The specialist is Craig Roberts...http://www.riflewarrior.com/.........
b
Grassy knoll=diversion - Miles Scull - 09-04-2013
Bernice Moore Wrote:Ok i lied...:rofl::rofl: i forgot, of course i did..:nono:.here is the link to the new photos showing possible escape route's re the sewer drains, etc....to Greg Burnham's site...thank you..Sir...
Even if this was not the spot from which the fatal shot was fired,
it could have been, and should have been covered and investigated.
Why have most people never even heard of this obvious possibility?:thumbsup:
:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:http://jfktruth.org/drain/index.htm
FWIIW:
The "Acefit" beverage store as seen in the photos at the linked website was the location where an Oswald impersonator bought beer and Peco Brittle on the morning of Nov. 22nd.
Grassy knoll=diversion - Gordon Gray - 10-04-2013
Bernice Moore Wrote:Gordon; here is a study thread by Tosh on that subject perhaps information will be posted that will help you...fwiw..bThe Gutierrez presentation is pretty compelling. I wonder though how the different types of bullets, frangible or MJB makes a difference. Also I still think a shot from the south knoll is pretty dicey. It appears to me that Greer, Connolly, and Jackie, would be in the line of fire. I think a shot from the storm drain, at the fence where it meets the overpass, is the best trajectory, but only for a brief moment. Also although she seems convinced of only one shot from the front, I can't discount the observations of the witnesses to the "other film" who saw two distinct shots, one from the back and one from the front.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2390&st=15
here is another, i hope these may help...b
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6386
Sherry Guitierrez provided an excellent presentation on Trajectory Analysis applied to the Assassination of JFK. Sherry has testified as an expert in crime scene reconstruction and bloodstain pattern analysis in over 30 judicial districts in the states of Louisiana, Mississippi and Florida. Sherry is currently employed as a consultant to attorneys and law enforcement officials. She is also a member of the International Association of Bloodstain Pattern Analysts and Association for Crime Scene Reconstruction.
I found Sherry's views on the position of the gunman who fired the shot that hit JFK in the head very stimulating. I would be interested in what some of our gun experts think of this theory. Sherry is a member of the Forum and hopefully she will answer your questions. You will find the presentation here:
http://www.jfklancerforum.com/sherryg/
The presentation ends with the following statement.
The blood examined in photographs and films, and described in the statements of witnesses in the homicide of John Kennedy, seem to describe back spatter to the immediate front of the President. There is no conflict to this supposition within any witness statements or in any blood evidence documented in video and photographs. Additionally, the Zapruder film reveals a violent movement of JFK's head to the rear, corresponding to the targets in the experiments. Therefore, it is my opinion the bloodstain evidence is consistent with the injury to John F. Kennedy's head being the result of a single gunshot from the right front..
The specialist is Craig Roberts...http://www.riflewarrior.com/.........
b
Grassy knoll=diversion - Phil Dragoo - 10-04-2013
"Gary" & the Jetts
The most recent challenge to the South End of the Overpass/South Knoll shot origin comes from Sixth Floor Museum Curator Gary Mack. Mack has come forward with new reporter Bob Jett, who has claimed to have been in the South Knoll Parking Lot eating his lunch at the time of the assassination. Jett has stated that he saw no assassin and heard no shots fired from that origin. Jett was working at the time of the assassination. My question as to his credibility and presence is why did he not immediately report on air, witnessing the assassination? Why was he not called upon by the Warren Commission to testify as to what he saw and did not see? The Warren Commission directed questions at most witnesses as to whether they heard or saw anything suspicious in this region. Wouldn't Jett have been the nail in the coffin they needed to disprove a shooter there?
Jett smells like Witt
Sherry Fiester, Enemy of the Truth, explores eight "myths" of the assassination including the source of what the author deems the only head shot, the South Knoll area
She's shown DPD to have failed to meet contemporary standards regarding crime scene protocol, failed to secure, protect, process and establish chain of evidencecleary due to higher orders to frame Oswald, in my view
The late Doug Weldon posited a shot from that area involving a punctured windshield replaced involving a rush manufacture at the plant
I believe it is Sherry's view the trajectory would go over the windshield
and it is well to remember Hess & Eisenhardt at the Secret Service instruction having delivered the limousine April 1963 then removed the privacy glass in August of that year
Add Greer's I BRAKE FOR SNIPERS bumper sticker and Bob's your uncle
Uncle Bob Jett helpfully ate a sandwich and can swear there weren't no sniper thereand another helpful person volunteered Dallas Streets had assured him there was no drain there
which would explain why Tosh and Sergio got muddy
I will take time to give Sherry's book consideration and then write a review
In the meantime we add to the twenty-six volumes of omission that while the Dulles Fables could document Jacob Rubenstein's mother's fish-bone syndrome it could not publish the FBI interview of Bob Sandwich
Oh, the FBI could do tens of thousands of interviews but miss Bob Sandwich
Maybe he was going under another name
Like, Church Lady
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4591[/ATTACH]
Grassy knoll=diversion - Jim Hackett II - 23-04-2013
Thanks Phil.
I have to be careful as this idea seems to fit well with my own opinions.
GM the quitter?
Ever been asked "Is that the same Gary Mack that.....?!!"
Unfortunately I can't say get a hold of Mr. Jack White now.
Thanks Jack for opening my eyes about 11" heads and many Oswalds.
and then for the common good of all.
So then I tell the tale of from TMWKK to The Confusatory Museum
and the copout.