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+--- Thread: Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis (/thread-11027.html)
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Jeffrey Orling - 08-08-2013
Albert Rossi Wrote:Well, as I said earlier, I am not in a position to pronounce on 9/11, but it is my view that the JFK assassination was indeed planned to a T from the inside, even if it may not have come off perfectly.
I tend to agree... JFK was complex but much smaller scope and very much more manageable as an intel black operation. The element of surprise also worked in the conspirators' favor and the outcome put them and their people firmly in control after the fact. That helps.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Jeffrey Orling - 08-08-2013
The public's response to 9/11 was vengenace... and this channled all energy away from looking closely at the event and accepting the cartoon narrative which was quickly stood up. With JFK there was either total shock and numbness and a short of loss of innocense but with the convenient patsy and quickly disposed of it was easly laid to rest. Mission accomplished.
But researchers have exposed what went down... and it's not the story in the history books.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Albert Rossi - 08-08-2013
Jeffrey Orling Wrote:How could there be any major international matter without intel's fingerprints NOT on it?
Well, what I meant was not just info collection & analysis, but covert/black op. But I suppose that even in that sense the statement is a truism, at least these days.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Jeffrey Orling - 08-08-2013
I think there is another issue operating here. People see the events of the world through a filter...a filter which blocks out some things and hilights others... much the way polarized sun glasses make the world look different from non polarized ones. But it's rather hard at some point to even realize that we are seeing the world through these filters... loosely referred to as subjectivity.
People who are firm in the belief of the JFK conspiracy tend then to see all events through a conspiracy filter as it were... and surely lots of what we see is not what actually is. We're subjected to deception 24/7 by advertising and PR and spin. At some point people simply accept whatever they want to see behind this all because deception is purposeful and the motives for it are no damn good.... ever.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Jeffrey Orling - 08-08-2013
I try very hard to not be too influence by my distrust of the government... and my views about things are not as fixed and immutable but more nuanced and evolving. This makes all the extreme positions find mine wrong. To the OCT supporters I am a truther.. to the truthers I am a gov shill. Fine... it is what it is.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Albert Rossi - 08-08-2013
Jeffrey Orling Wrote:I think there is another issue operating here. People see the events of the world through a filter...a filter which blocks out some things and hilights others... much the way polarized sun glasses make the world look different from non polarized ones. But it's rather hard at some point to even realize that we are seeing the world through these filters... loosely referred to as subjectivity.
People who are firm in the belief of the JFK conspiracy tend then to see all events through a conspiracy filter as it were... and surely lots of what we see is not what actually is. We're subjected to deception 24/7 by advertising and PR and spin. At some point people simply accept whatever they want to see behind this all because deception is purposeful and the motives for it are no damn good.... ever.
I cannot speak for others, but I certainly do not see all events through a conspiracy filter. And "conspiracy" is such a vague and all-embracing concept anyway that to say conspiracy is to say little.
I think there is much truth in what you say about filtering, Jeffrey, and it does not apply only to belief in conspiracy, but could be seen as a general epistemological precept. I think all scholars of history or the human sciences worth their salt are constantly aware of this problem. I think that natural scientists have analogous problems (witness the anthropic principle, at least in some of its manifestations). Ultimately there is no absolute way out of it, but we all must be honest enough to admit that it operates in subtle ways that sometimes we cannot control. But awareness is half the battle.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Charles Drago - 08-08-2013
Jeffrey Orling Wrote:I try very hard to not be too influence [sic] by my distrust of the government...
As good a working description of insanity as an I've read ...
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Jeffrey Orling - 08-08-2013
Albert Rossi Wrote:I cannot speak for others, but I certainly do not see all events through a conspiracy filter. And "conspiracy" is such a vague and all-embracing concept anyway that to say conspiracy is to say little.
I think there is much truth in what you say about filtering, Jeffrey, and it does not apply only to belief in conspiracy, but could be seen as a general epistemological precept. I think all scholars of history or the human sciences worth their salt are constantly aware of this problem. I think that natural scientists have analogous problems (witness the anthropic principle, at least in some of its manifestations). Ultimately there is no absolute way out of it, but we all must be honest enough to admit that it operates in subtle ways that sometimes we cannot control. But awareness is half the battle.
I think you have this correct. What I was trying to say is that in these debates I find that most people refuse to see or accept their bias and that it may and likely does influence how the see things. Most will claim they are objective and as you point out the intellectually honest understand this is a platonic ideal.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Dawn Meredith - 08-08-2013
Charles Drago Wrote:Jeffrey Orling Wrote:I try very hard to not be too influence [sic] by my distrust of the government...
As good a working description of insanity as an I've read ...
Wow. I must say you are in the minority here Jeffrey.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Albert Doyle - 08-08-2013
Jeffrey Orling Wrote:Correct... but not the one the truth movement is pushing.
Would you elaborate on your non CD conception of the inside job?
Simple. Covert members that seep out of the alphabet agencies and military practice a deeper form of black arts beyond those of those agencies. What is hidden beyond the hidden is what is especially evilly pure and dangerous. These men are of the Dulles persuasion and see themselves as gods using the world as a canvas. These people are supported by the usual sponsors who comprise the private sector version of the same. I've already explained that Peter Lance has detailed US being totally aware of the Bin Laden/Khalid Sheikh Mohammed airline terrorist underground back in 1994. When Clinton was deposed these persons saw an opening with a totally Republican government. If you look at American history this Republican fascist force killed JFK and started the VietNam War; waited for CIA Director Bush to be in power for the Gulf War; and finally got his son behind an all-out PNAC government hunting oil and power. These people knew the Bin Laden/KSM group was looking for a shot so they simply guided it in a covert form of plausible deniability. They almost got exposed because of a diligent cockpit training facility employee with Moussaoui but some quick stand-down orders took care of that only weeks before the attack.
I believe the unique structure of the Towers combined with the unprecedented flying of wide body commercial jets into skyscrapers caused an exceptional situation where the buildings collapsed on their own. When some say no steel frame building ever collapsed from fire they are ignoring this situation. The buildings they are referring to are classic buildings with frameworks throughout the structure that had common fires. The 9-11 fires were unusual crash damage fires in buildings with a fatal structural flaw stoked by high winds.
The plot is much simpler than you allow.