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+--- Thread: Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis (/thread-11027.html)
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Albert Doyle - 10-08-2013
Jeffrey's diagram may underplay the damage to the core columns.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Jeffrey Orling - 10-08-2013
Albert Doyle Wrote:Jeffrey's diagram may underplay the damage to the core columns.
Perhaps... This was intended to show how loads redistribute and cause other columns to then fail... obviously they all failed... but we don't know how many were destroyed by the strike or partially damaged.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Lauren Johnson - 10-08-2013
Assume that for some unknown reason, every one of the core columns of WTC 1 or 2 vanished in x number of floors. (Of course, we assume that they are still standing.) This eliminates the speculation about how many core columns remain and how strong they are.
If the core columns of one floor are removed what happens? Two? Three?
I assume, Jeffrey, you would say the whole building comes down with the removal of the core columns of even one floor. Correct. Tony, I am guessing you will say that the whole building does not collapse with the removal of only one floor's worth of core columns.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Jeffrey Orling - 10-08-2013
Lauren Johnson Wrote:Assume that for some unknown reason, every one of the core columns of WTC 1 or 2 vanished in x number of floors. (Of course, we assume that they are still standing.) This eliminates the speculation about how many core columns remain and how strong they are.
If the core columns of one floor are removed what happens? Two? Three?
I assume, Jeffrey, you would say the whole building comes down with the removal of the core columns of even one floor. Correct. Tony, I am guessing you will say that the whole building does not collapse with the removal of only one floor's worth of core columns.
First, the columns were 3 stories tall. The were spliced one to the other at about 4 feet above the floor slab. So it's hard to imagine how a single floor of core columns could be removed. See attached diagram of the facade damage of north face of WTC 1 with the row 500 core columns shown in red and blue... Notice how they BEGIN above the floor level and end 3 stories up again 4' above the slab.
If by magic you removed JUST the 24 core columns the floors outside the core would collapse and the ROOSD would begin and the tower would come down. You could do this with magic removal of as few as 12 core columns.... the 4 corner ones and the two center ones on each side... My guess. I think perhaps as few as 8 as shown in the attached slide could cascade into a top drop and then ROOSD and global failure. Note in the top diagram the relative area of floor outside-the-core load percentages carried by each column.
The 23 columns in the center of the core were not required to support the floors outside the core... they supported inside the core floor (little area) and defined all the elevator shafts. Their size is markedly smaller.
Note in the FLOOR 1 COLUMN STUDY the relative areas of each column... the area is DIRECTLY PROPORTIONAL to the load that the column supports. These ratios are similar all through the height of the tower, though the columns all decrease in cross sectional area.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Albert Doyle - 11-08-2013
The hypothesis should be correlated with the actual conditions of the collapse. If a full floor of core columns were magically removed the inner floor pad would drop pulling the fastened connections with the outer frame inward ripping the outer frame supports inward and out of line with those below them. The correct formula here, that is more in line with the actual event, is the entire section above would then become a downward pile driver initiating the floor pad collapse. This is probably very close to what actually happened. This would be aided by a damaged core and frame steel weakened by fires.
What Tony said were demolition plumes were actually air pressure plumes from the collapsing floors. A sharp eye could see they couldn't be from explosives in the core because the source was too close to the wall they were blasting out of. There were no detonation flashes from those plumes, their source was definitely pneumatic.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Tony Szamboti - 11-08-2013
Albert Doyle Wrote:The hypothesis should be correlated with the actual conditions of the collapse. If a full floor of core columns were magically removed the inner floor pad would drop pulling the fastened connections with the outer frame inward ripping the outer frame supports inward and out of line with those below them.The correct formula here, that is more in line with the actual event, is the entire section above would then become a downward pile driver initiating the floor pad collapse. This is probably very close to what actually happened. This would be aided by a damaged core and frame steel weakened by fires.
Only 1/3rd of perimeter columns were spliced on any given floor. So your hypothesis is incorrect.
Quote: What Tony said were demolition plumes were actually air pressure plumes from the collapsing floors. A sharp eye could see they couldn't be from explosives in the core because the source was too close to the wall they were blasting out of. There were no detonation flashes from those plumes, their source was definitely pneumatic.You can't seriously believe the focused jets we see emanating from the building are from pressure due to floor collapses. Logically that pressure would be spread over a wide area.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Tony Szamboti - 11-08-2013
Lauren Johnson Wrote:Assume that for some unknown reason, every one of the core columns of WTC 1 or 2 vanished in x number of floors. (Of course, we assume that they are still standing.) This eliminates the speculation about how many core columns remain and how strong they are.
If the core columns of one floor are removed what happens? Two? Three?
I assume, Jeffrey, you would say the whole building comes down with the removal of the core columns of even one floor. Correct. Tony, I am guessing you will say that the whole building does not collapse with the removal of only one floor's worth of core columns.
The perimeter would be pulled inward and fail causing the upper section to descend and impact the next story down and arrest. A one or two story fall does not produce enough kinetic energy to continue the collapse as it is significantly less than the column energy absorption.
Jeffrey thinks his ROOSD can begin right away but it can't as the floors could take 29 million lbs. of force, which is a static load of about five additional full floors with their live load. The dynamic load of one floor assembly would be nowhere near 5g's so ROOSD needs to wait until a sufficient number of floors have broken loose and gained momentum.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Tony Szamboti - 11-08-2013
Albert Doyle Wrote:Jeffrey's diagram may underplay the damage to the core columns.
How many core columns do you suppose out of the 47 of them were severely damaged or severed in the North Tower?
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Jeffrey Orling - 11-08-2013
Tony Szamboti Wrote:The perimeter would be pulled inward and fail causing the upper section to descend and impact the next story down and arrest. A one or two story fall does not produce enough kinetic energy to continue the collapse as it is significantly less than the column energy absorption.
Jeffrey thinks his ROOSD can begin right away but it can't as the floors could take 29 million lbs. of force, which is a static load of about five additional full floors with their live load. The dynamic load of one floor assembly would be nowhere near 5g's so ROOSD needs to wait until a sufficient number of floors have broken loose and gained momentum.
Can't have a one story column disappearance... it would be 3 and the core above would drop causing more than 6 floors to break free and drop and no I don't think it would arrest.
And no I don't think the tower would stand with one floor of columns instantly vaporized. And yes a floor can support one or two as additional floors slabs as static load...dynamic... not so sure.
Some Misunderstandings Related to WTC Collapse Analysis - Albert Doyle - 11-08-2013
Tony Szamboti Wrote:Only 1/3rd of perimeter columns were spliced on any given floor. So your hypothesis is incorrect.
Not if you correlate it to the actual conditions in the tower. The damage area in the tower was from floor 93 to floor 99. This would easily cover all the splices in the drop area. Plus the actual dynamic involves the antenna dropping, so the entire 12 floors were having a catastrophic failure that would involve all relevant members from the roof line to the 93rd floor. You have to understand the totality of the event as it corresponds to everything involved. The floor pads flanged the perimeter skirt just enough to drive the top section like a wedge down the shaft of the outer frame.
Tony Szamboti Wrote:You can't seriously believe the focused jets we see emanating from the building are form pressure due to floor collapses. Logically that pressure would be spread over a wide area.
That's exactly what they were. If they were explosives charges where was the residue? Explosives are made of identifiable chemicals. For the third time, where were the detonation flashes seen in all other controlled demolitions? The tower had glass windows on all sides. You have an Ashley Banfield sound analysis for the blasts in Building 7. Where is that analysis for these very prominent timed demo charges? You can't tell me demo blasts seen so prominently on the collapse video made no such recordable sound? Time you gave an answer for that. As I've explained in detail, the compressed air pressure blasts would occur with each floor pad as it collapsed on the one beneath it. Funny how that's exactly what you see in your video. The pressure would escape out the point of least resistance - which is exactly what you see with those jets escaping out the windows.
In the meantime a second escape point would be inward and into the inner core column. Your thinking is somewhat 2 dimensional. Unfortunately this is a three dimensional problem best shown by animated illustration of the key dynamics involved as they occurred. As each pad crashed it created the pressure blast jets you see. The relevant dynamic is that of each blast as it occurs in a split second and drives the outer frame outward and inner core inward. You don't seem to fathom that the tower design was an inadvertent self destruct design as the pneumatic blast from each pad destroyed the column supports as its force was aimed horizontally. At the point of those jets the force driving the pads was the mass of all the debris above it shooting down the shaft. You fail to understand that the dust jets you cite on video are those very blasts appearing right in the right place at the right time as this phenomenon occurred. If your theory of CD initiating the collapse were true those dust jets are far too late into the process and are not seen earlier on the upper floors.