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Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - David Guyatt - 25-01-2014

As I keep saying, they don't regard it as "your" money, but theirs...

I wonder what they say to all those drug baron's accounts when they withdraw money? Not "no" or "show me a receipt what the withdrawal is for", that's for sure.

Anyway, beware the future. Other banks will now follow suit.

Quote:24 January 2014 Last updated at 19:59Share this page




HSBC imposes restrictions on large cash withdrawals

By Bob HowardReporter, Money Box[Image: _67967819__64687146_owjhc7qm-1.jpg]HSBC customers requiring large cash withdrawals may be asked what they want the money for
Continue reading the main storyPersonal Banking



Some HSBC customers have been prevented from withdrawing large amounts of cash because they could not provide evidence of why they wanted it, the BBC has learnt.
Listeners have told Radio 4's Money Box they were stopped from withdrawing amounts ranging from £5,000 to £10,000.
HSBC admitted it has not informed customers of the change in policy, which was implemented in November.
The bank says it has now changed its guidance to staff.
New rulesStephen Cotton went to his local HSBC branch this month to withdraw £7,000 from his instant access savings account to pay back a loan from his mother.
A year before, he had withdrawn a larger sum in cash from HSBC without a problem.
But this time it was different, as he told Money Box: "When we presented them with the withdrawal slip, they declined to give us the money because we could not provide them with a satisfactory explanation for what the money was for. They wanted a letter from the person involved."
Mr Cotton says the staff refused to tell him how much he could have: "So I wrote out a few slips. I said, 'Can I have £5,000?' They said no. I said, 'Can I have £4,000?' They said no. And then I wrote one out for £3,000 and they said, 'OK, we'll give you that.' "
He asked if he could return later that day to withdraw another £3,000, but he was told he could not do the same thing twice in one day.
Continue reading the main story"Start Quote

As this was not a change to the Terms and Conditions of your bank account we had no need to pre-notify customers of the change"
HSBC customer letter
He wrote to complain to HSBC about the new rules and also that he had not been informed of any change.
The bank said it did not have to tell him. "As this was not a change to the Terms and Conditions of your bank account, we had no need to pre-notify customers of the change," HSBC wrote.
Frustrated customersMr Cotton cannot understand HSBC's attitude: "I've been banking in that bank for 28 years. They all know me in there. You shouldn't have to explain to your bank why you want that money. It's not theirs, it's yours."
Peter from Wiltshire, who wanted his surname withheld, had a similar experience.
He wanted to take out £10 000 cash from HSBC, some to pay to his sons and some to fund his long-haul travel plans.
Peter phoned up the day before to give HSBC notice and everything seemed to be fine.
The next day he got a call from his local branch asking him to pay his sons via a bank payment and to provide booking receipts for his holidays. Peter did not have any booking receipts to show.
The following day he spoke to HSBC again and this time, having examined his account, it said he could withdraw the £10,000.
Belinda Bell is another customer who was initially denied her cash, in her case to pay her builder. She told Money Box she had to provide the builder's quote.
Customer protectionHSBC has said that following customer feedback, it was changing its policy: "We ask our customers about the purpose of large cash withdrawals when they are unusual and out of keeping with the normal running of their account. Since last November, in some instances we may have also asked these customers to show us evidence of what the cash is required for."
"The reason being we have an obligation to protect our customers, and to minimise the opportunity for financial crime. However, following feedback, we are immediately updating guidance to our customer facing staff to reiterate that it is not mandatory for customers to provide documentary evidence for large cash withdrawals, and on its own, failure to show evidence is not a reason to refuse a withdrawal. We are writing to apologise to any customer who has been given incorrect information and inconvenienced."
Continue reading the main story"Start Quote

In a sense your money becomes pocket money and the bank becomes your parent"
Douglas CarswellMP for Clacton
Money Box asked other banks what their policy is on large cash withdrawals.
They all said they reserved the right to ask questions about large cash withdrawals.
But none of them said they would require evidence of what the money was being used for before paying out.
Douglas Carswell, the Conservative MP for Clacton, is alarmed by the new HSBC policy: "All these regulations which have been imposed on banks allow enormous interpretation. It basically infantilises the customer. In a sense your money becomes pocket money and the bank becomes your parent."
But Eric Leenders, head of retail at the British Bankers Association, said banks were sensible to ask questions of their customers: "I can understand it's frustrating for customers. But if you are making the occasional large cash withdrawal, the bank wants to make sure it's the right way to make the payment."

And I just weep and this bollocks:

""The reason being we have an obligation to protect our customers, and to minimise the opportunity for financial crime."

Oh yeah? They're protecting you by imposing their will upon by demanding to knowing everything about your affairs. And as they say, in a roundabout way, you are guilty until proven innocent.

From BBC News

Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - Magda Hassan - 25-01-2014

I'd be closing my account if that happened to me.

Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - David Guyatt - 25-01-2014

Magda Hassan Wrote:I'd be closing my account if that happened to me.

Same thought occurred to me too, the problem is this will be nationwide shortly, I think, as HSBC would;t risk going out on a limb like this unless it knew all the others had to follow suit. Clearly, there has been an agreement reached about this. Everybody is regarded as a money launderer except the real money launderers who have an "arrangement" in place. It compile bullshit, of course. This is just another subtle way of making people understand who really is in charge and what they can expect for the future.

Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - Magda Hassan - 25-01-2014

David Guyatt Wrote:
Magda Hassan Wrote:I'd be closing my account if that happened to me.

Same thought occurred to me too, the problem is this will be nationwide shortly, I think, as HSBC would;t risk going out on a limb like this unless it knew all the others had to follow suit. Clearly, there has been an agreement reached about this. Everybody is regarded as a money launderer except the real money launderers who have an "arrangement" in place. It compile bullshit, of course. This is just another subtle way of making people understand who really is in charge and what they can expect for the future.
Well fuck that then. I wont keep my money there then. Wonder if they ask the Sinola drug cartel their reasons for depositing and withdrawing their money?

Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - Tracy Riddle - 25-01-2014

I think the real problem is that most banks don't keep a lot of cash on hand. They loan out far more than they have in the vault. So they do everything possible to discourage people from making large withdrawals.

Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - David Guyatt - 25-01-2014

Tracy Riddle Wrote:I think the real problem is that most banks don't keep a lot of cash on hand. They loan out far more than they have in the vault. So they do everything possible to discourage people from making large withdrawals.

I agree partly Tracy. You can always phone your bank a day ahead of time and make an arrangement for a large cash withdrawal. They don't need to know why though.

But HSBC told established clients they can't have a big cash sum unless they provide evidence what they're going to spend it on --- i.e., receipts.

That's not limiting cash withdrawals, that's being intrusive into private matters.

Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - Tracy Riddle - 26-01-2014

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37475.htm

Concerns about an imminent bank crash were further fueled today at news that HSBC are restricting the amount of cash that customers can withdraw from their own bank accounts. Customers were told that without proof of the intended use of their own money, HSBC would refuse to release it. This, and other worrying signs point to a possible financial crash in the near future.

HSBC is scrambling to manage a seemingly terminal liquidity crisis (a lack of hard cash) that could see the bank become the next Northern Rock and trigger a bank crash. The analyst's advice is for shareholders to sell HSBC investments, and customers to move their accounts elsewhere before the crash.


Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - David Guyatt - 26-01-2014

I don't disagree at the possibility Tracy, as I think the banking system is still incredibly fragile.

But there are other factors we might take into account too.

Not least, is the fact the daily cash withdrawals amount to a tiny gnat bite compared to the daily electronic withdrawals that take place, and there are no problems with the latter, so far as I can see.

The problem with cash is that it leaves the system and is harder to follow, and this is not liked. It is not impossible to follow, as bank note numbers are recorded when they leave the system and when they go back into it. But it is more labour intensive. And not all of it goes back into the system directly, but indirectly - via third parties (or fourth and fifth parties) making the trail a lot harder to follow.

This has as much to do with the government abhorring the black market in services (money laundering being a convenient excuse), where tradesmen still ask to be paid in cash as they don't want to create a tax liability for themselves.

But British banks have been required to follow the money laundering regulations for years. You cannot transfer a penny to a non UK bank without being asked what it is for. If you don't give them an answer, they're not allowed to make the payment. Small cash amounts withdrawn are not a problem, but large cash withdrawals fall foul of these regulations, and you are asked what the money is for.

Quote:Douglas CarswellMP for Clacton
Money Box asked other banks what their policy is on large cash withdrawals.
They all said they reserved the right to ask questions about large cash withdrawals.
But none of them said they would require evidence of what the money was being used for before paying out.
Douglas Carswell, the Conservative MP for Clacton, is alarmed by the new HSBC policy: "All these regulations which have been imposed on banks allow enormous interpretation.

(my bolding)

Note that none of them say outright that it is the money laundering laws that are invoked. It's one of those things that are not spoken about. I suppose because this lame excuse would be quickly seen through as the sheer nonsense it is.

So, for me the real question remains why HSBC decided to try to impose the idea that customers needed to evidence why they wanted their cash. That was an ominous move, I think. It was also an own goal. Yet, I think this could have been anticipated in advance. They've retracted that requirement now, following the media getting involved. But is it the thin edge of the wedge? We will see it again in another few years? I think we probably will.

I hope this provides a clearer understanding of where I was coming from. A problem I have is that I respond to posts in a sort of chopped-off short-hand, because I don't always have the time to go into more detail about my reasoning.

Of course, HSBC could go belly up tomorrow, and then I'll be looking like a complete tart won't I. ::doh::

Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - Tracy Riddle - 26-01-2014

Thanks for the explanation, David. I guess none of us really know what's going on in the secretive world of big banks.

Bank won't hand over your money without explanation of why you want it.. - Magda Hassan - 27-01-2014

More cash separation anxiety from the banks. First Lloyds second China. Then there's all that gold they wont give to Germany presumably because they don't have it to give back any more...

Quote:

First HSBC Halts Large Withdrawals, Now Lloyds ATMs Stop Working



Submitted by Tyler Durden on 01/26/2014 14:43 -0500


Update: things are back to normal - Lloyds will gladly accept your deposits again:
First HSBC bungles up an attempt at pseudo-capital controls by explaining that large cash withdrawals need a justification, and are limited in order "to protect our customers" (from what - their money?), which will likely result in even faster deposit withdrawals, and now another major UK bank - Lloyds/TSB - has admitted it are experiencing cash separation anxiety manifesting itself in ATMs failing to work and a difficult in paying using debit cards. Sky reports that customers of Lloyds and TSB, as well as those with Halifax, have reported difficulties paying for goods in shops and getting money out of ATMs.
All three banks are under the Lloyds Banking Group which said: "We are aware that some customers are unable to use their debit cards either to make purchases or to withdraw money from ATMs. "We are working hard to resolve this as swiftly as possible and apologise for any inconvenience caused."


Further from SkyNews, TSB, which operates as a separate business within the group, issued a statement saying: "We are aware that some TSB customers are unable to use their debit cards either to make purchases or to withdraw money from ATMs. "This has impacted all Lloyds Banking Group brands. We are working hard to resolve this and unreservedly apologise for any inconvenience caused."
TSB chief executive Paul Pester said in a tweet: "My apologies to TSB customers having problems with their cards. I'm working hard with my team now to try to fix the problems."
Clients were not happy:

On the microblogging site, one TSB customer Nicky Kate said: "Really embarrassed to get my card declined while out shopping, never had any problems with lloyds then they changed my account."

Hannah Smith: "I am a TSB customer with a Lloyds card still (like everyone else). And I've been embarrassed three times today re: card declined."

Another customer Julia Abbott ‏said: "Lloyds bank atm and card service down. 20 mins on hold to be told this. Nothing even on website. Shoddy lloyds. ... shoddy."

Helen Needham ‏said: "#lloyds bank having problems with there card service... Can't pay for anything or get money out!"

Another Twitter user wrote: "This problem is also affecting Halifax debit cards as I found out trying to pay for lunch with my wife!"

And Jane Lucy Jones tweeted Halifax, saying: "Why can't I get any money out of any cashpoints, what is going on?
What is going on is known as a "glitch" for now, and perhaps as "preemptive planning" depending on who you ask. Sure, in a few months in may be called a bail-in (see Cyprus), but we will cross that bridge when we get to it. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-01-26/first-hsbc-halts-large-withdrawals-now-lloyds-atms-stop-working

Quote:China Halts Bank Cash Transfers
Posted on January 26, 2014 by Stacy Herbert

Many were oh so concerned about the Chinese who owned some bitcoin. LOL. Anyway, there sure are lots of strange things going on over the past few months with ATM malfunctions' and cash withdrawal limits and now suspension of money transfers (the very essence of bitcoin which no govt can shut down). We shall see where this all leads, all we know for sure is that debt and leverage has GROWN since the last collapse, so can the next one be far behind?

China Halts Bank Cash Transfers

In short, there will be a three-day suspension of domestic renminbi transfers. There will also be a suspension, spanning nine calendar days, of conversions of renminbi to foreign currency.

The specific reason given"system maintenance" at the central bankis preposterous. It is not credible that during the highest usage period in the yearthe weeklong Lunar New Year holiday beginning January 31the central bank would schedule an upgrade and shut down cash transfers.

A better explanation is that the country's banking system is running dry.


Read more at http://www.maxkeiser.com/2014/01/china-halts-bank-cash-transfers/#qj803C3gGt5WqpxR.99

China Halts Bank Cash Transfers

Posted on January 26, 2014 by Stacy Herbert 7 Comments ↓
Stacy Summary: Many were oh so concerned about the Chinese who owned some bitcoin. LOL. Anyway, there sure are lots of strange things going on over the past few months with ATM malfunctions' and cash withdrawal limits and now suspension of money transfers (the very essence of bitcoin which no govt can shut down). We shall see where this all leads, all we know for sure is that debt and leverage has GROWN since the last collapse, so can the next one be far behind?
China Halts Bank Cash Transfers
In short, there will be a three-day suspension of domestic renminbi transfers. There will also be a suspension, spanning nine calendar days, of conversions of renminbi to foreign currency.
The specific reason given"system maintenance" at the central bankis preposterous. It is not credible that during the highest usage period in the yearthe weeklong Lunar New Year holiday beginning January 31the central bank would schedule an upgrade and shut down cash transfers.
A better explanation is that the country's banking system is running dry.

Read more at http://www.maxkeiser.com/2014/01/china-halts-bank-cash-transfers/#qj803C3gGt5WqpxR.99

China Halts Bank Cash Transfers

Posted on January 26, 2014 by Stacy Herbert 7 Comments ↓
Stacy Summary: Many were oh so concerned about the Chinese who owned some bitcoin. LOL. Anyway, there sure are lots of strange things going on over the past few months with ATM malfunctions' and cash withdrawal limits and now suspension of money transfers (the very essence of bitcoin which no govt can shut down). We shall see where this all leads, all we know for sure is that debt and leverage has GROWN since the last collapse, so can the next one be far behind?
China Halts Bank Cash Transfers
In short, there will be a three-day suspension of domestic renminbi transfers. There will also be a suspension, spanning nine calendar days, of conversions of renminbi to foreign currency.
The specific reason given"system maintenance" at the central bankis preposterous. It is not credible that during the highest usage period in the yearthe weeklong Lunar New Year holiday beginning January 31the central bank would schedule an upgrade and shut down cash transfers.
A better explanation is that the country's banking system is running dry.

Read more at http://www.maxkeiser.com/2014/01/china-halts-bank-cash-transfers/#qj803C3gGt5WqpxR.99

China Halts Bank Cash Transfers

Posted on January 26, 2014 by Stacy Herbert 7 Comments ↓
Stacy Summary: Many were oh so concerned about the Chinese who owned some bitcoin. LOL. Anyway, there sure are lots of strange things going on over the past few months with ATM malfunctions' and cash withdrawal limits and now suspension of money transfers (the very essence of bitcoin which no govt can shut down). We shall see where this all leads, all we know for sure is that debt and leverage has GROWN since the last collapse, so can the next one be far behind?
China Halts Bank Cash Transfers
In short, there will be a three-day suspension of domestic renminbi transfers. There will also be a suspension, spanning nine calendar days, of conversions of renminbi to foreign currency.
The specific reason given"system maintenance" at the central bankis preposterous. It is not credible that during the highest usage period in the yearthe weeklong Lunar New Year holiday beginning January 31the central bank would schedule an upgrade and shut down cash transfers.
A better explanation is that the country's banking system is running dry.

Read more at http://www.maxkeiser.com/2014/01/china-halts-bank-cash-transfers/#qj803C3gGt5WqpxR.99