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+--- Thread: Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? (/Thread-Does-the-entire-set-up-of-the-Patsy-hinge-on-his-going-home-at-his-own-request-on-the-21st)
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Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - David Josephs - 29-03-2015
Oswald asks Wesley for a ride home mid morning on Thursday the 21st .
Mr. BALL - I see.
Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it wasn't.
Mr. BALL - It was on a Thursday.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Was that the 21st of November?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Well, tell us about that.
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"
And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."
So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"
And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put in an apartment."
He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.
Without his going home:
1 - how do we get the rifle from the garage to the 6th floor and attribute it solely to Oswald? &
2 - is Oswald still the Patsy? (on Thursday around noon the "set-up of the Patsy" is not already in place - would they say he hides the gun there since some other time??
Wesley claims Oswald asks to take him home.
Paine says it was to make up with Marina... her garage light story is tissue paper thin
How can the entire set-up hinge on Oswald going home - is he setting himself up to take the blame somehow?
We know he didn't take that rifle to the TSBD nor was it in that garage, nor was it on Magazine when he moved out in Sept.
Does the entire set-up of Oswald as Patsy hinge solely on his getting to and from Irving that week? and if so, does that not seem pretty shaky ground to build a set-up?
(Edit: image here relates more to next post)
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - David Josephs - 29-03-2015
Ruth Paine arrives late Sept after visiting Friends (Quakers) and family/friends to take Marina to Irving
According to the FBI watching Oswald, an Oct 31st report from Kaack says that he left with his wife on Sept 25, presumably for TX.
https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10413&relPageId=2
The next FBI Commission Doc is dated 11/24.
On 10/25 the FBI learns that Oswald forwarded mail from New Orleans to Irving
On 10/30 HOSTY makes first contact with Marina at the Paines. Oswald is not there https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=692235
next page - "Dallas and all offices should continue effort to locate subject LEE HARVEY OSWALD"
page 176 - 11/5 and still trying to locate Oswald from Little Rock Arkansas where Robert lives
p 178 Dallas FBI tells HQ and Little Rock that MICHAEL PAINE advised that LEE is at TSBD 411 Elm, unknown home address ... Oswald has been at his home since Oct 4th and home most weekends.
The FBI's WCD #1 only says that the FBI received reports in mid Oct that a person possibly identical to Oswald was in Mexico City https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10402&relPageId=49
During what amounts to some of the most incriminating time prior to the assassination, the FBI, HOSTY, offers no clues about Oswald until Nov 1 when they hear from MICHAEL.
The following weeks include the Sports Drome sightings when he is both with his family one weekend and one weekend, the weekend before the assassination, he stays at his rooming house, does his laundry. Yet on these two weekends another impersonation occurs with the rifle and events occur which are sure to be stick in witnesses memories - the firing on a neighbor's target, the bragging, the Italian made rifle with scope... these same people put Oswald at this range in Dallas the same day an Oswald and Duran are recorded on tape at the Cuban/Soviet Embassies and only the night before, in Dallas, Lee is at Odio's. Did the FBI know this and bury reports... ??? or did they assume he was at Sports Drome and then realized it couldn't be there either - Hoover knew the CIA was lying about Mexico very early. IMO when he sees Lee HENRY and starts to get negative reports back from his Mexico sources (of which there were MANY)
Libeler: The Commission had information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was LEE HARVEY OSWALD?
Price: That's right. The first time I saw this person was in September, the last week, the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon they opened the rifle range.
Libeler: On the last Saturday of September? That would be Saturday, September 28, 1963?
Price: Yes.
-----
So in these critical days not only do we have the call and visit in Mexico, the Sports Drome intent to leave the impression Lee Oswald was there whether you think it was Lee, Crafard or some other look alike, maybe Igor Vaganov? http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?topic=6656.0 the multiple sightings in south Texas http://jfklancer.com/Page1.html and the FBI either not knowing where he is, not writing reports about it and knowing he is at Odio's with 2 Cubans or I have not yet found reports about what they knew of Oswald during this time.
I do know that the FBI checked their sources in Mexico and got reports on the 4th, 6th and 8th of Nov as they moved up the hierarchy with the 11/8 report a negative for Oswald from the Dept of Interior (Gobernacion) https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=61080&relPageId=2
The FBI has info finally by the 8th of Nov that Oswald was not observed in Mexico, there is no mention of the Odio incident and no evidence of the knowledge of his whereabouts until Nov 1.
Was the FBI setting Oswald up at this point as the patsy? From what I've seen, this does not occur until after 11/22. On the morning of 11/23 the report from Mexico is that although the Evidence shows HO LEE left by AUTO on Oct 3rd, not driving himself... the STATE dept rep CASH tells the I&NS that the evidence does not show the mode of transportation.
The FBI and their assets now create the Mexico trip out of thin air over the next 10 months. It is completely false but makes it appear as if he traveled to and from Mexico alone in order to secure passage to Russia via Cuba... a complete and total lie again as his passport was already approved for travel to Russia directly. It was his wife that was having the trouble.
I think by now we all know that Oswald did not shoot JFK... it was a set-up. Yet let's remember the most important piece of the set-up. Oswald MUST go home so it appears he gets his rifle - otherwise it would have had to be brought to him, ergo a conspiracy. He does not ask Wesley for a ride home until Thursday afternoon!
If he does not go home, he never brought the rifle - game over.
Marina claims the blanket in the garage looks as undisturbed as ever
Ozzie had gone to bed at 9pm, Ruth at 11:00pm. I think we all agree that he did not bring C2766 with him to work on Friday
If he does not go home, the set-up falls apart... as of noon on Thursday, he was not going home. HE initiates the trip.
Mr. BALL - I see.
Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?
Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it wasn't.
Mr. BALL - It was on a Thursday.
Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Was that the 21st of November?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Well, tell us about that.
Mr. FRAZIER - Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"
And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me."
So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"
And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You know, put in an apartment."
He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.
Mr. JENNER - Then, I would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Until you retired for the night?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - Was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper?
Mrs. PAINE - I don't believe so.
Mr. JENNER - Did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening?
Mrs. PAINE - No; I did not.
Mr. JENNER - Any persons moving about?
Mrs. PAINE - No.
Mr. JENNER - The only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage?
Mrs. PAINE - That is right.
Mr. BALL - The statement says, "I recall vaguely having seen Lee Oswald, when he came to work at about 8 a.m. today."
Mr. DOUGHERTY - That's right.
Mr. BALL - Now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, oh--it's like this--I'll try to explain it to you this way--- you see, I was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, I just caught him out of the corner of my eye---that's the reason why I said it that way.
Mr. BALL - Did he come in with anybody?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - He was alone?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; he was alone.
Mr. BALL - Do you recall him having anything in his hand?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't see anything, if he did.
Mr. BALL - Did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I can---yes, sir---I'll put it this way; I didn't see anything in his hands at the time.
Mr. BALL - In other words, your memory is definite on that is it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - In other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - I would say that---yes, sir.
Anyone care to take a crack at explaining how a set-up as this can hinge on the patsy's decisions to go home?
Mrs. PAINE - As we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because Marina and I spoke in private to one another, she apologized.
Mr. JENNER - Was Marina out on the lawn also?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes, sir. She apologized for his having come without permission and I said that was all right, and we said either then or later--I recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else.
Mr. JENNER - That was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it?
Mrs. PAINE - Well, it was rather my own, too.
Mr. JENNER - And it was your own?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - And because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between Lee and Marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of November 21 that he was home just to see if he could make up with Marina?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Mr. JENNER - Do I fairly state it?
Mrs. PAINE - Yes.
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - Jim Hargrove - 29-03-2015
David Josephs Wrote:Anyone care to take a crack at explaining how a set-up as this can hinge on the patsy's decisions to go home?
No need to get overly excited and descend to the dark side, DJ. Your question can be answered in three words: Ralph Leon Yates.
Our Patsy-to-Be traveling to the Paine's Thursday night apparently surprised even The Plotters, who had already gone to considerable effort to plant the curtain rod story in the record two days earlier. Hell, Yates's story was a LOT more believable that the tale spun by Frazier and his sister, which is pretty much destroyed in Harvey and Lee and no doubt many other places. Had Harvey Oswald spent Thursday night in his room at the boarding house, Yates could have had his 15 minutes of fame and avoid being hounded to death by the Feds. Of course, Harvey's fingerprints wouldn't have been on the brown paper regardless of the fantasy arrival at the TSBD, but why sweat the details?
Just how terrible was the saga spun by Wesley and Linnie Mae? Ask me and I'd be happy to fill in a few details.
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - Tracy Riddle - 29-03-2015
What about the blanket in the garage? I had forgotten about officer Guy Rose and his story about Marina saying LHO had a rifle. She was so consistent about denying to FBI/SS in her early interviews that she had ever seen a rifle, and yet she supposedly told this cop about it. Granted that Ruth Paine was acting as interpreter, so who knows how she might have twisted Marina's words?
As for the rest of it, I just have to put it in the category of things I don't have the answers to.
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - David Josephs - 29-03-2015
If Yates was the story, then why create the bag when he goes home...
stay with the truth.
But thanks for reminding me of Yates Jim ::rockon::
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - Jim Hargrove - 30-03-2015
From Harvey and Lee, pp 601-602:
==================== QUOTE ON ========================
September 24 - Ruth Paine and Marina arrive in Irving, Texas
On September 24 (Tuesday) Ruth Paine, Marina, and June arrived at 2515 W.
5th in Irving at 1:20 pm. Commission attorney Albert Jenner questioned Mrs. Paine to
see if she unloaded a package which could have contained a rifle from her station wagon:
Jenner: "When you arrived in Irving, Mrs. Paine ..... do you distinctly recall the
hard-sided luggage you described yesterday?"
Mrs. Paine: "Yes."
Jenner: "Now, was there a separate long package of any kind? ..... Was there a
separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket?"
Mrs. Paine: "No."
Jenner: "When you arrived in Irving, Texas were you present when your sta*
tion wagon was unpacked?"
Mrs. Paine: "Marina and I did that with the exception of the duffels."
Jenner, still trying to prod Mrs. Paine into recalling a long package which could
have contained a rifle, continued his questioning:
Jenner: "Now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel
bags-on the occasion on the 24th of September 1963 when you reached
Irving, Texas, did you find or see any long rectangular package?"
Irving, Texas, did you find or see any long rectangular package?"
Mrs. Paine: "I recall no such package."
Jenner: "Did you see any kind of package wrapped in the blanket?"
Mrs. Paine: "Not to my recollection .... I don't recall seeing the blanket either."47
NOTE: Neither the rifle nor the blanket was in Mrs. Paine's garage as of Sept. 24.
Marina Oswald told the Commission that Oswald had a rifle at 214 W. Neely,
had a rifle at 4905 Magazine Street in New Orleans, and saw a rifle in Mrs. Paine's ga*-
rage in Irving. But Commission members failed to understand how the rifle was trans*-
ported from Dallas to New Orleans and now they could not understand how the rifle
was transported from New Orleans to Mrs. Paine's garage. Commission member Hale
Boggs asked Mrs. Paine, "Did you see the rifle that he had in the room in your home?"
Mrs. Paine answered, "In the garage, no .... I never saw that rifle at all until the police
showed it to me in the station on the 22nd of November."48
Ruth Paine told the Commission that she asked her husband, Michael Paine,
to unpack some of the heavy things from their car, so the Commission questioned
Michael.
NOTE: Michael and Ruth Paine had not lived together as husband and wife since late
1962. Michael moved into an apartment in Arlington and later into an apartment in
Grand Prairie. According to both Michael and Ruth Paine, her estranged husband was
at 2515 W. 5th when Ruth arrived home on Sunday, September 23rd.
Michael Paine told the Commission that he recalled unpacking duffel bags and
other items from the station wagon, but nothing that resembled a rifle. He then told the
Commission about a package that he found laying on the floor of the garage. Michael
said, "I do remember moving about this package which, let's say, was a rifle, anyway it
was a package wrapped in a blanket .... .! moved it several times, and I think I thought
progressively each time. I moved it twice." Michael Paine said he never looked inside
the package and when asked by Liebeler, "If you at any time ever saw this rifle prior
to November 22, 1963" Michael Paine answered, "I did not."49
No evidence of a rifle
The Warren Commission, through their questioning of Ruth Paine, Michael
Paine, Mr. and Mrs. Garner, and Eric Rogers, failed to show that Oswald had possession
of a rifle in either Dallas, New Orleans, or Irving. They also failed to show that Oswald
shipped or transported a rifle, or a package that could have contained a rifle, from their
apartment at 214 W. Neely in Dallas to their apartment at 4905 Magazine Street in New
Orleans or to Ruth Paine's garage in Irving.
From March 1963 until November 22, 1963 there was only one witness who
placed a rifle in Oswald's hands-Marina.
========================== QUOTE OFF =========================
There is more that is relevant to the discussion here, both before and after this excerpt,
but this is a copyrighted work.
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - David Josephs - 30-03-2015
I agree about the rifle completely Jim...
But we're talking about Yates, his story of an Oswald being dropped off with the Rifle in front of the TSBD... the statement is from Dec 10th I believe.
By then the paper bag, rifle and Oswald are gone. Yates is more evidence of another Oswald yet the paper bag is still involved and OSwald brought the rifle from the garage - that's the story at least - we both agree the rifle was never there.
I'm sure something would have been worked out yet it does seem strange that the "set-up" has to be so fluid as to account for his going him on Thursday as opposed to having brought the rifle and hidden it some other time...
IDK Jim - just like getting Ossie to the window on time... Ossie going on his own to Irving Thursday -
Part of the plan or paper bag improvides at the last minute?
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - Jim Hargrove - 30-03-2015
It's pure speculation, but my guess would be the Yates curtain rod story was the actual plan, and the Wesley/Linnie Mae saga was cobbled together later because someone was unhappy with Plan A. (Too many witnesses could put Oswald in the TSBD when he was supposed to be traveling with Yates, perhaps???)
But there could be other explanations. In the crunch, even the best laid plans ... and all that.
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - Albert Doyle - 31-03-2015
That would make sense since the rifle wasn't delivered the morning of the assassination. It could very well be that the rifle was delivered that day when Yates saw it. This would also lend credibility to two Oswalds being at the Depository at the same time. Which means it is possible there were two Oswalds at the Depository the day of the assassination.
It would make sense that they wanted a more solid plan so they involved Frazier who worked at the Depository. It is also possible this was precipitated because someone caught on to the Oswald doubles at the Depository. Maybe even the day of Yates' citing. Maybe someone saw Oswald deliver the rifle after Yates drove away.
This could all have nothing to do with anything and Oswald simply wanted to see Marina before the Big Event.
Does the entire set-up of the Patsy hinge on his going home at his own request on the 21st? - Drew Phipps - 31-03-2015
How about this angle: The original plotters set up the Yates story, but the intrepid investigators after the fact, not having found Yates yet, quickly realize that they need a way for the rifle to be delivered, and convince Wesley and Linnie May to help out, without briefing them adequately. That would explain why the package they consistently describe couldn't have contained the disassembled MC 91-38.
Another possibility is that Ozzie did deliver a disassembled rifle to someone that AM, just not his rifle.