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+--- Thread: Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot (/thread-15213.html)
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Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - Jim DiEugenio - 17-12-2016
Just up at Kennedysandking.com, Martin Hay on the documentaryA Coup in Camelot.
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/a-coup-in-camelot
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - Albert Doyle - 17-12-2016
Martin Hay denies the Commander Pitzer assassination witnessed by Dan Marvin and Dennis David.
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - Joseph McBride - 18-12-2016
I am surprised that Hay twists things unconvincingly to try to disprove
Douglas Horne, who has the evidence on the body
alteration by Dr. Humes before the official autopsy.
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - Albert Doyle - 18-12-2016
Hay is up to his old tricks in his denial of the pre-autopsy. His criticism of Horne hinges on yet another one of his classic skeptical analyses of the pre-autopsy that ignores evidence and takes the government position. Hay offers input that is borderline Lone Nutter material in my opinion. He takes the word of people literally, like Humes, whom the real interpretation of what he is saying would be understood as covering up the pre-surgery instead of denying it. Didn't some people say that Humes might have actually been involved in the pre-surgery? The switching of the body to the aluminum casket is a very important part of the conspiracy in my opinion and here you have Hay typically going after it and trying to convince us it is imaginary while using the words of those who are potentially an active part of the cover-up literally. Hay makes no mention of Jerrol Custer who was walking up the stairs with JFK's X-Rays when he saw the ambulance pull up with the bronze casket.
This is why I point-out Hay's denial of the Pitzer story. Because it is very important to what Hay is doing here. It is important to realize that Commander Pitzer very likely filmed the pre-surgery unawares that he wasn't filming the actual autopsy. This is evinced by the fact Pitzer showed Dennis David a clear photo of an entry wound to the temple area. Hay takes the skeptic view and assures us there isn't any evidence of this while quoting the people doing the cover-up. However Dennis David was clear Pitzer was enthusiastically assembling evidence that contradicted the Warren Report. Pitzer was so excited that he dragged his Bethesda friend in to his office to show him assembled slides of the contradicting wounds. Of course there's no evidence. As Dan Marvin witnessed, CIA murdered Pitzer and confiscated it.
DiEugenio should know better.
.
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - Jim DiEugenio - 19-12-2016
Joe:
I am not aware if you know of my review of Horne. But I actually read every paragraph of each volume and took about 70 pages of notes. Quite independent of Martin Hay, I found his book a mixed bag. If you did not read it here it is:
https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/horne-douglas-inside-the-arrb
And BTW, if you go to JFK Facts you will see that there is a real controversy about the credibility of those witnesses he surfaced who testified about an early delivery of the Z film to Rochester. I was not aware of that when I wrote my review.
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - Albert Doyle - 19-12-2016
To deny Pitzer is to call Dennis David a liar. And Dan Marvin too for that matter...
I'm thinking I'll take Dennis David and Dan Marvin over Hay thanks.
The fact Pitzer most likely filmed the pre-autopsy is serious evidence that would be of enormous significance. I hate to think that petty parochialism, solipsistic skepticism, and protection of websites and egos would come before evidence. That would be pretty pathetic and show a serious erosion of research integrity in the community.
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - Albert Doyle - 23-12-2016
It is obvious to me that Dennis David is telling the truth. I suggest those who doubt him listen to him speak at the JVB conference.
Unfortunately the people who were there failed to ask him the critical question whether Pitzer said anything to indicate that he may have filmed the pre-autopsy. A vital question no one asked.
Audio only up to 22 minutes when they noticed they hadn't turned the camera on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwJ2HC0ABzg&t=68s
.
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - David Lifton - 29-12-2016
Joseph McBride Wrote:I am surprised that Hay twists things unconvincingly to try to disprove
Douglas Horne, who has the evidence on the body
alteration by Dr. Humes before the official autopsy.
Martin Hay's review of A Coup in Camelot is akin to fake news. He repeatedly makes absurd arguments and misrepresents the record. For years--this London-based Kennedy buff (who I am told is a postman)--cannot abide the thesis put forward in Best Evidence.
The case for body alteration was laid out--chapter and verse--in Best Evidence, which was published (by Macmillan) in January 1981, and was a NY Times best seller and a Book of the Month Selection; and was then republished by three more publishers (Dell, Carrol and Graf (trade paper); and New American Library).
Some of the nonsense promoted in his review:
--that the major head wound reported in the Bethesda autopsy is really the same wound as was present in Dallas, but its true extent wasn't seen in Dallas because "Jackie closed the wound" by pushing down a flap of scalp" etc. --this nonsense promoted by Gary Aguilar. I call this the "Dutch door" version of the head wounds. Just "close the flap" and it isn't there. For those who are interested in details, Dr. Perry described the flap that he observed --in detail--to writer Jimmy Breslin and that flap was at the back of the head. This account was published within two days (in the St Louis Post Dispatch) and then reprinted, word for word, in a December 1963 issue of the Saturday evening post.
--That doctor Humes really did have to do work with a saw to remove the brain; ignoring what Dr. Humes testified to the Warren Commission: "We had to do virtually no work with a saw. . " etc.
--that there was no pre-autopsy because, well, because Martin hay says so(!). Yes, its practically that bad. Go read Chapter 18 of Best Evidence, where the facts are laid out, chapter and verse, including the non-negotiable fact--not "fact"--that the scalp was "flapped" before the official autopsy began. There were four symmetric scalp tears laid out on the first two pages of the autopsy report. It is all spelled out in B.E. (And it is all ignored by Hay).
--that Navy Commander Stringer said that the autopsy photos he took are the ones in evidence. FALSE. I interviewed Stringer in Aug/September 1972, when I accompanied Wecht to the archives, and what he said is quoted, at length, in Chapter 20 of Best Evidence. The hole in Kennedy's head was located at the back of the head, exactly where your head touches the floor of a bathtub, when you are lying on your back. I questioned Stringer carefully, and he used proper anatomical language. The hole was located in the occipital-parietal area--but that's where the autopsy photographs show no hole at all. (And that was exactly what Godfrey McHugh told me when I interviewed him in November 1967). Martin Hay: liar, liar, pants on fire. Do you really think you're going to fool "all of the people all of the time," simply because you write falsehoods in your review? (And what about you, DiEugenio: did it ever occur to you that its irresponsible to publish such garbage?)
--that the official report of the casket team is wrong, in stating that the body was brought in at 8 pm (this is the second entry of the Dallas casket, this time, with the body); and why is it wrong? Simply because. . well, simply because Martin Hay says so (!). Again, more fake news.
--That Dennis David's account of the arrival of the body in a shipping casket, in a black hearse, is incorrect because--well, again, because FNC ("Fake News Correspondant") Martin Hay says so. Apparently, Hay conveniently omits the powerful corroboration coming from witness Donald Rebentisch, of Grand Rapids Michigan, and who came forward the week B.E. was published--and was given a full two-page spread in TIME magazine. This was a wire-service account, and I then interviewed Rebentisch on camera, His account was included as an "Epilogue to the 1982 Edition" (and in all subsequent editions). So not only did Dennis David witness this (6:35 pm, approx) arrival; so did Rebentisch. Dennis David was on the 2nd floor, and saw the naval ambulance arrive 20 minutes later; Rebentisch was in the lobby, and saw Jackie ready to board the elevator. There's no question about the sequence, unless you live in a bubble, like Martin Hay, and write for DiEugenio, who will publish such junk on his website.
--the evidence of spinal cord severence, found at autopsy. See chapter 18 of Best Evidence.
There's so many other points I could make, but there's no time. What Sylvia Meagher once said of the Warren Commission applies to Martin Hay: "The use of the English language in the service of obfuscation and guile."
David S. Lifton - - 12/28/16
Author: Best Evidence
Los Angeles, California
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - David Lifton - 29-12-2016
David Lifton Wrote:[quote=Joseph McBride]I am surprised that Hay twists things unconvincingly to try to disprove
Douglas Horne, who has the evidence on the body
alteration by Dr. Humes before the official autopsy.
P.S. : And oh yes. .one other matter. Did I mention that Martin Hay never once mentions the Sibert and O'Neill FBI report, which states that when the doctors first saw the body ,that it was "apparent" that there had been "surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull." The FBI records--which I obtained under FOIA--make clear that the FBI agents wrote that because they were recording "oral statements" made by the autopsy doctors. (See Chapter 12 of B.E., for detailed discussion). Years later (circa 1990), I interviewed James Sibert (by phone): In a friendly conversation that lasted for well over an hour, Sibert told me "I could swear on a stack of bibles that the doctors said there was surgery."
And not to mention any of this in your so-called "review"?
Shame on you, Martin Hay. (And you too, DiEugenio. . . for publishing such garbage, and re-circulating the nonsense of Gary Aguilar, who is spreading the medico-legal absurdity that the observations of the Parkland doctors can be dismissed because "Jackie closed the flap."
DSL
Author, Best Evidence
Martin Hay's review of A Coup in Camelot is akin to fake news. He repeatedly makes absurd arguments and misrepresents the record. For years--this London-based Kennedy buff (who I am told is a postman)--cannot abide the thesis put forward in Best Evidence.
The case for body alteration was laid out--chapter and verse--in Best Evidence, which was published (by Macmillan) in January 1981, and was a NY Times best seller and a Book of the Month Selection; and was then republished by three more publishers (Dell, Carrol and Graf (trade paper); and New American Library).
Some of the nonsense promoted in his review:
--that the major head wound reported in the Bethesda autopsy is really the same wound as was present in Dallas, but its true extent wasn't seen in Dallas because "Jackie closed the wound" by pushing down a flap of scalp" etc. --this nonsense promoted by Gary Aguilar. I call this the "Dutch door" version of the head wounds. Just "close the flap" and it isn't there. For those who are interested in details, Dr. Perry described the flap that he observed --in detail--to writer Jimmy Breslin and that flap was at the back of the head. This account was published within two days (in the St Louis Post Dispatch) and then reprinted, word for word, in a December 1963 issue of the Saturday evening post.
--That doctor Humes really did have to do work with a saw to remove the brain; ignoring what Dr. Humes testified to the Warren Commission: "We had to do virtually no work with a saw. . " etc.
--that there was no pre-autopsy because, well, because Martin hay says so(!). Yes, its practically that bad. Go read Chapter 18 of Best Evidence, where the facts are laid out, chapter and verse, including the non-negotiable fact--not "fact"--that the scalp was "flapped" before the official autopsy began. There were four symmetric scalp tears laid out on the first two pages of the autopsy report. It is all spelled out in B.E. (And it is all ignored by Hay).
--that Navy Commander Stringer said that the autopsy photos he took are the ones in evidence. FALSE. I interviewed Stringer in Aug/September 1972, when I accompanied Wecht to the archives, and what he said is quoted, at length, in Chapter 20 of Best Evidence. The hole in Kennedy's head was located at the back of the head, exactly where your head touches the floor of a bathtub, when you are lying on your back. I questioned Stringer carefully, and he used proper anatomical language. The hole was located in the occipital-parietal area--but that's where the autopsy photographs show no hole at all. (And that was exactly what Godfrey McHugh told me when I interviewed him in November 1967). Martin Hay: liar, liar, pants on fire. Do you really think you're going to fool "all of the people all of the time," simply because you write falsehoods in your review? (And what about you, DiEugenio: did it ever occur to you that its irresponsible to publish such garbage?)
--that the official report of the casket team is wrong, in stating that the body was brought in at 8 pm (this is the second entry of the Dallas casket, this time, with the body); and why is it wrong? Simply because. . well, simply because Martin Hay says so (!). Again, more fake news.
--That Dennis David's account of the arrival of the body in a shipping casket, in a black hearse, is incorrect because--well, again, because FNC ("Fake News Correspondant") Martin Hay says so. Apparently, Hay conveniently omits the powerful corroboration coming from witness Donald Rebentisch, of Grand Rapids Michigan, and who came forward the week B.E. was published--and was given a full two-page spread in TIME magazine. This was a wire-service account, and I then interviewed Rebentisch on camera, His account was included as an "Epilogue to the 1982 Edition" (and in all subsequent editions). So not only did Dennis David witness this (6:35 pm, approx) arrival; so did Rebentisch. Dennis David was on the 2nd floor, and saw the naval ambulance arrive 20 minutes later; Rebentisch was in the lobby, and saw Jackie ready to board the elevator. There's no question about the sequence, unless you live in a bubble, like Martin Hay, and write for DiEugenio, who will publish such junk on his website.
--the evidence of spinal cord severence, found at autopsy. See chapter 18 of Best Evidence.
There's so many other points I could make, but there's no time. What Sylvia Meagher once said of the Warren Commission applies to Martin Hay: "The use of the English language in the service of obfuscation and guile."
David S. Lifton - - 12/28/16
Author: Best Evidence
Los Angeles, California
Martin Hay on A Coup in Camelot - Tom Scully - 31-12-2016
Happy new year, David Lifton. Unfortunately, you are here to practice the Trump tendency of projecting your shortcomings onto your opponent.
Two points and a question......
David Lifton lacks discernment. The feud between Mr. Lifton and Martin Hay is an old one and the feud between Mr. Lifton and Jim DiEugenio is even older.
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:That is really funny about Lifton not seeing any difference between PJM and Aline Mosby.
Question.... David Lifton, can you explain why Priscilla and Marina are pictured below,in 1964, seated with the spouse of Clark Clifford's aunt, a man who was a close friend of Priscilla Johnson McMillan's first cousin, CIA agent David Davenport?
Quote:Has Everyone Sold Out? More Questions than Answers About George White and James Phelan, et al
http://jersey.illinoisgenweb.org/obits/ObituariesMc.htm
McADAMS. Mrs. Anna Curtis McAdams, widow of William McAdams, died Christmas morning in Decatur, IL....Mrs. McAdams lived in Alton. Mrs. McAdams leaves four daughters, Mrs. Eugene Gaskins of Miami, Fla.; Mrs. J. H. Dickie of Decatur; Mrs. Frank A. Clifford of St. Louis and Mrs. Rupert Neely of Portland, Maine; and three sons, Clark McAdams of St. Louis, John D. McAdams of Alton and William D. McAdams of New York.... Jersey County News, 28 Dec. 1933.
(One non-descript, 1933 obituary, seemingly, in itself, indistinguishable from millions of others,
save for the names of some of the surviving children, daughter, Mrs. Frank A. Clifford, and sons John D., and William D. McAdams.
(Mrs. Clifford was the mother of Clark M. Clifford, and Clark's uncle John, a partner of the Alton Telegraph newspaper, employed
James D. Phelan, and uncle William D. McAdams was the spouse of Marguerite and father of Joanne.) .......
(Clark Clifford's law partner Tom Finney just happened to be on loan to CIA for duty in Denmark for a time and just happened to show up in the 1968 Gene McCarthy campaign with Tom McCoy. McCoy was a recent CIA retiree who happened to be married to the Priscilla Johnson
unearthed by John Newman!
http://johnsafer.com/library/articles.html#storie10
![[Image: MccoyFinneyCliffordPriscilla.jpg]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-R3CfZ7MGj-o/U78q0W94MJI/AAAAAAAABvY/WY_KZeUEFi8/s512/MccoyFinneyCliffordPriscilla.jpg)
Prompted by John Newman's research of the mixing by CIA in 1956 of files of three distinct Priscilla Johnsons. I wrote...:
Quote:I intended to verify the lead I found at Ancestry.com that led me to believe that Priscilla Livingston Johnson, b. 1922 Stockholm, Sweden, was the daughter of a U.S. diplomat. Until now, I had not verified her D.O.B. more closely than the year, 1922. Now
I can post an exact match, 23 September, 1922.
My research uncovered:
U.S., Consular Reports of Births, 1910-1949 > Alphabetical > Jamieson - Johnson
Document image is displayed just below this quote box.:
![[Image: USConsularReportsofBirths19101949_187253755.jpg]](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3-g1yJLNZMk/UEoaae5UuCI/AAAAAAAAA0c/b5c3d8NmnRk/s720/USConsularReportsofBirths19101949_187253755.jpg)
1946 -
![[Image: PriscillaLivingstonJohnsonWedtoOSSmajor.jpg]](https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6K6YiaVtfBo/T_jSzd3LjMI/AAAAAAAAA0c/oYGimxFSn0U/s512/PriscillaLivingstonJohnsonWedtoOSSmajor.jpg)
)
The following was originally posted here.: https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?15051-2017JFK-org-has-been-launched-with-content&p=103550#post103550 on 10-14-2015, 06:32 PM
"....and Lifton, the maryferrell.org $150,000 giftee, is at it again, just yesterday pontificating that Oswald in Mexico City is a fact.
This is priceless.: (especially considering that Miss Priss and her first cousin, David C Davenport of CIA bottled up Marina from the time she was handed off to them by Declan and Kat Ford until fifteen years later.)
[B]...... Priscilla's story versus Mosby's Story
Quote:Two other things are worth noting (and keep in mind that Priscilla McMillan was deposed as a Warren Commission witness, whereas Aline Mosby was not. In the case of Mosby, there is simply a WC exhibit, of the text of her notes, and draft that she wrote, just after the assassination). But no testimony--which I have always found weird.
(a) The Priscilla Johnson story and the Aline Mosby story are almost line by line similar. So--essentially--Oswald said the same thing to both of these reporters just days apart. And so I have never understood why so much suspicion is focused on Priscilla Johnson (McMillan) --for having once attempted to join the CIA, or whatever the details are--when a nearly identical story was published by Aline Mosby, and no one raises an eyebrow. My point is that Priscilla--imho--has come in for a lot of unjustified criticism and suspicion. As far as I'm concerned, its entirely unwarranted. But. . please do read on, because there's plenty of questions that can be raised about Aline Mosby, and they are potentially far more important.
.....................
I'd sure like to have someone explain that to me.
DSL
5/25/13; 1:20 PM PDT
Los Angeles, California
Is Lifton "just lazy," too? Where is the book he was gifted six figures to allegedly author?
[URL="http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/11/the-only-person-who-knew-both-kennedy-and-his-killer/281712/"]
[/URL]
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...killer/281712/
Nov 21, 2013
.......
You met Marina in 1964, but your book wasn't published until 1977. What took so long?
Well, it's just the way I work. I guess I'm lazy. I was living in different places because I got married. I was very much into civil rights in Atlanta and the South. But mostly I just work slowly. ....
![[Image: 66d703daf.png]](http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/2013/11/McMillan001/66d703daf.png)
Priscilla McMillan (left) and Marina Oswald (right) in Santa Fe, New Mexico, October 1964.
[URL="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293"]http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/author-85-knew-jfk-killer-oswald-article-1.1525293
Thursday, November 21, 2013,[/URL]Marina Oswald (left), widow of Lee Harvey Oswald, with friend Jerre Hastings (center) and Priscilla Johnson McMillan. McMillan befriended Oswald after the assassination of JFK.
[URL="http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6514&search=rocca_and+janney#relPageId=2&tab=page"]
[/URL]www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=6514&search=rocca_and+janney#re lPageId=2
SUBJECT: Garrison Group Meeting No. 2 - 26 September 1967
.....
3. Rocca felt that McCone should be briefed, and perhaps also Hoover and Clifford. Executive Director said we should be prepared in the near future to bring the Director up to date and present him with alternative action. .....
The plaintiff in the 1965 article image below is referring to the man in the middle in the photo above, Jerome Hasty, spouse of presidential advisor Clark M. Clifford's aunt, Marguerite Bowman McAdams :
Did Jerome and David gain experience bottling up Marina before moving on to Ms. McAdams, a first cousing of presidential advisor Clark M. Clifford? = http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.h...&relPageId=146
https://www.google.com/#q=joanne+mcadams+new+mexico
http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/35602601/
Miss Me Adams, who is not represented by an attorney in the suit relates in the complaint that she had come to Santa Fe to visit her mother, Mrs. Marguerite McAdams Hasty, and her mother's husband, Jerome Hasty, and David Davenport, a friend of Hasty, induced her to consult Dr. Roscnbaum. As a result, she claims, the sheriff of Sazita Fc County, Perez Roybal, arrested her without a warrant and she was transported lo the-State Hospital at Las- Vegas, where she \vas incaceratcd from July 28, 1965 to August 15, J.%5.
![[Image: PriscillaDavenportHastyLawsuit1967_1of2.jpg]](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-QP7Y7FFiUSU/UXDF-gVFmBI/AAAAAAAAA8M/G8lNTcIcos4/s720/PriscillaDavenportHastyLawsuit1967_1of2.jpg)
[B]Priscilla certainly changed her tune!
http://archive.is/esTuB
Secrets of Newsweek's Osborn Elliott & Hugh Aynesworth, & of Priscilla Johnson
........
http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/ar...0&relPageId=42
.......
........
[/B][/B]https://www.google.com/search?q=marina%20perry%20knowlton%20site:news.google.com/newspapers&source=newspapers#q=+oswald+perry+knowlton[B][B]
Marina Oswald Biography Is Brutally . - Google News
news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1346&dat=19770918&id...
Marina's editors and her agent, [B]Perry Knowlton, won't allow Marina to discuss the book in any way without their permission for at least a year after its publication.
https://www.google.com/#tbm=bks&q=sa...ort+cia+cousin
Without Reservations: From Harlem to the End of the Santa ...
https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0943734363Samuel B. Ballen - 2001 - ‎Snippet view
From Harlem to the End of the Santa Fe Trail Samuel B. Ballen ... Ethel and I were invited to dinner at the home of Dave Davenport who also had Priscilla McMillan, his cousin, as a guest. ... David Davenport was a former CIA man who had become disenchanted and was now semi-retired to his youthful locus of Santa Fe.
On a U.S. Census form enumerated on May 18, 1940 in New Trier Township, Cook County, IL :
![[Image: PriscillaHastyMcAdams1940CensusNewTrierILL.jpg]](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-tXbbdVGZ0gk/UYOxgcMPHSI/AAAAAAAABB8/3vCZ7manKpc/s1280/PriscillaHastyMcAdams1940CensusNewTrierILL.jpg)
On April 26, 1940, Jerome A Hastings was a 29 year old man who was born in Wisconsin and was employed as a buyer at a country club. His education level was C2, two years of college. Hastings' annual income was just over $300. In 1935 his residence was in Flemington, NJ.
On May 18, Jerome Hasty was a 29 year old man who was born in Wisconsin and was employed as a officer at a country club. His education level was C1, one year of college. Hasty's annual income was just over $600. In 1935 his residence was in Carmel-by-the-Sea, CAL.
26 years later, Jerome Allen Hasty files a notice of legal change of name from Hasty to Hastings:
![[Image: PriscillaDavenportHastyToHastingsNameCha...100366.jpg]](https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-qdSAs_XwtTc/UXIny-MCVFI/AAAAAAAAA8s/1q5I4NBVwU4/s720/PriscillaDavenportHastyToHastingsNameChangeNotice100366.jpg)
Jerome Hasty is apparently married to the woman he had boarded with on May 18, 1940.:...."
[/B][/B][/B]