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+--- Thread: Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? (/thread-15350.html)
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Bob Prudhomme - 24-02-2017
A few years ago, a researcher by the name of Gerda Dunckel made a gif from the Darnell film, and released it for the first time on the JFK Assassination Forum. Purportedly, this film claimed to show two men walking down the Elm St. extension toward the Grassy Knoll, mere seconds after the last shot was fired.
![[Image: couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif]](http://www.abload.de/img/couchloveladyshelley7l8kuy.gif)
Bill Shelley was ID'ed as the man on their left, with Billy Lovelady being the man on their right who catches up to and passes Shelley. While it was accepted as Gospel by many researchers that this was Shelley and Lovelady heading for the rail yards, just as it was accepted that Prayer Man was Oswald, there were many, including myself, who demanded more proof.
For starters, these two men are clearly not together, despite the imagined nod of recognition so many researchers can "see" in this gif. "Lovelady" passes "Shelley" without the slightest hint of recognition..
More important, the man ID'ed as Shelley is clearly taller than the man ID'ed as Lovelady. This is the first thing that caught my attention, as every photo I had seen of Shelley previous to this seemed to indicate that he was not a very big man.
Lovelady's height was given in an FBI report as being 5' 8" while no such record was ever made of Shelley's height. I looked everywhere I could think of for a record of Shelley's height but had absolutely no luck. In desperation, I wrote two letters; one to a William Boyd Shelley of Dallas, Texas, supposedly the son of the late William Hoyt Shelley (d. 1996) and one to a journalist who interviewed Shelley in the early 1970's.
Shelley Jr. never replied to my letter but I received a reply from the journalist the other day, which I will re-print here"
"Dear Mr. Prudhomme:
Your question about Bill Shelley's height is difficult to answer. At the time I met Shelley in the early 1970's, he was perhaps 5-5 or 5-6. However, he told an employee (TSBD employee?) he was once two inches taller. According to the employee, Shelley claimed he broke his back in a car accident sometime after the JFK assassination. Subsequent surgery supposedly left him two inches shorter. Shelley never mentioned the car accident in my presence, but the employee was a reliable source and Shelley's claim would have been plausible. Moreover, I recall Shelley was slightly misshaped as if he had indeed lost a couple of inches of height above the hips.
For the sake of clarity, I met Shelley while he was working at the Scott Foresman school book warehouse in Northwest Dallas. This was the new home of the old Texas School Book Depository. As for Shelley, after reading his Warren Commission testimony years later I realized I had learned little new information about him. Perhaps my biggest takeaway from the experience was a strong suspicion the Texas School Book Depository was a storefront for domestic intelligence. After the assassination, the storefront may have been moved to the new Scott Foresman warehouse in Northwest Dallas.
Hope this information sheds a little light for you. Very best of luck.
Sincerely,
**** *****
Austin, Texas"
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Albert Doyle - 24-02-2017
So my estimate of Shelley's height at 5' 8" was pretty accurate.
On the now uncredible Education Forum (due to the predatory moderation of James Gordon) I believe it was Sandy Larsen who placed a cut-out of Lovelady's shirt next to the plaid pattern of the man walking down the Elm St Extension. The plaid bars lined up with the pattern on the man on the extension. Kamp is also correct that Lovelady's bald spot is just barely detectable. I can see it.
Bill Miller placed a cut-out of Shelley next to the other man walking down the Elm St Extension. Once done an immediate similarity between that man and Shelley was instantly apparent. It was obviously Shelley's haircut and head shape.
The men are most definitely and without a doubt Lovelady and Shelley.
Miller is correct about believing the testimony or your own lying eyes. This evidence proves Shelley and Lovelady left immediately around the time of Darnell.
Part of the pleasure of doing independent research is getting quotes like the one Prudhomme got from the journalist. To get an exclusive quote telling you the journalist experienced first hand that the Depository was an Intel storefront immediately conditions the 3 minute delay told of by the men in question. I think what the journalist in question is trying to say is that years later Shelley didn't add anything more than what he told the Commission and knowing how much more there was to tell that was suspicious.
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Albert Doyle - 24-02-2017
Even though Sandy Larsen is the one who proved the plaid pattern on Lovelady's shirt matches the one on the man walking down the Elm St extension, he is now over on the Education Forum arguing that Lovelady is still on the steps. This is bizarre and what I call the "Murphy Effect" because while Larsen is arguing against his own evidence, no one points it out. Not even his opposition Bill Miller. There is no processing of evidence now in the community and useless petty parsing is preferred over evidence. Even those who proved evidence are not held accountable to its necessary conclusions and are allowed to argue against their own findings with no one pointing it out.
The reason the plaid bars line up is because the man is Lovelady. The Murphy effect is apparently capable of curing baldness...
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Albert Doyle - 25-02-2017
Larsen and Graves are saying this man on the steps in the Couch/Darnell films is Lovelady. If that is eyes, nose, and a mouth then it shows a 25-30 degree angle for "Wash Out Man".
So where is his chin?
I think you are looking at the back of the head of one of the ladies climbing up the stairs. The reason she is stopped and isn't climbing the steps like those other women to her right is because Prayer Woman is up at the front of the landing blocking her. (There could be a hand on the chin, but it ain't Lovelady who is already positively identified walking away with Shelley)
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Albert Doyle - 01-03-2017
In my opinion Bill Miller's showing of the bald spot and plaid on the man walking down the Elm St Extension verifies this person as being Lovelady and proves the oft cited 3 minute delay in leaving the steps is inaccurate.
The cincher is Miller placed a clear photo of Shelley next to the man walking with Lovelady and the features clearly matched Shelley in Couch/Darnell.
I find it less than productive or honest to call for discussion of evidence but then not make the necessary conclusions the evidence finally shows. This dishonesty has given birth the persons like Sandy Larsen and their time-wasting regressions.
The Education Forum is clearly using dirty tactics and banning to evade the fact we have disproven Murphy.
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - LR Trotter - 01-03-2017
Admittedly a discussion area for me, but scarves abound in the area at the time, and possibly a rear view. In any event, images of black, varying shades of gray, and then white. So, BNL is either there, or somewhere else, and that is indisputable. However, his and WHS's testimony indicates he has left the doorway at about that time.
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Bob Prudhomme - 01-03-2017
LR Trotter Wrote:Admittedly a discussion area for me, but scarves abound in the area at the time, and possibly a rear view. In any event, images of black, varying shades of gray, and then white. So, BNL is either there, or somewhere else, and that is indisputable. However, his and WHS's testimony indicates he has left the doorway at about that time.
You call yourself a student of assassination research? I think you'd better go back to school, son.
Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the Warren Commission that they remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes following the third shot, and did NOT leave the steps until after Gloria Calvery had returned to the TSBD steps and given them the news of the assassination.
Gloria Calvery was standing far enough down Elm St., at the time of the assassination, it would have been impossible for her to arrive at the TSBD steps before Baker.
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Albert Doyle - 01-03-2017
David Josephs:
" You ain't gonna see what you don't want to know ".
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Albert Doyle - 01-03-2017
Bob Prudhomme Wrote:[
Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the Warren Commission that they remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes following the third shot, and did NOT leave the steps until after Gloria Calvery had returned to the TSBD steps and given them the news of the assassination.
Gloria Calvery was standing far enough down Elm St., at the time of the assassination, it would have been impossible for her to arrive at the TSBD steps before Baker.
Bob is clearly not believing what his own lying eyes show and self-servingly referring to testimony.
The Couch/Darnell films both show a woman running towards Lovelady and Shelley. You can see the woman says something that Shelley pulls up and tries to confront her about.
The evidence clearly shows the 3 minute delay is not accurate and Lovelady and Shelley are seen walking down the Elm St extension directly after the shooting.
It is critically important that Buell Frazier testified he was facing and talking to Sarah Stanton at the moment Calvery ran up to the steps. One look at those films shows that the person Frazier is facing and talking to is Prayer Man.
Bob's own video above shows Baker running just ahead of Calvery to the steps. It is entirely dishonest to not admit this.
.
Shelley and Lovelady? Are You Sure?? - Bob Prudhomme - 01-03-2017
Albert Doyle Wrote:Bob Prudhomme Wrote:[
Both Shelley and Lovelady testified to the Warren Commission that they remained on the steps of the TSBD for 3-4 minutes following the third shot, and did NOT leave the steps until after Gloria Calvery had returned to the TSBD steps and given them the news of the assassination.
Gloria Calvery was standing far enough down Elm St., at the time of the assassination, it would have been impossible for her to arrive at the TSBD steps before Baker.
From the Warren Commission testimony of Billy Lovelady:
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? [/FONT]
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. [/FONT]
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? [/FONT]
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.[/FONT]
Bob is clearly not believing what his own lying eyes show and self-servingly referring to testimony.
The Couch/Darnell films both show a woman running towards Lovelady and Shelley. You can see the woman says something that Shelley pulls up and tries to confront her about.
The evidence clearly shows the 3 minute delay is not accurate and Lovelady and Shelley are seen walking down the Elm St extension directly after the shooting.
It is critically important that Buell Frazier testified he was facing and talking to Sarah Stanton at the moment Calvery ran up to the steps. One look at those films shows that the person Frazier is facing and talking to is Prayer Man.
Bob's own video above shows Baker running just ahead of Calvery to the steps. It is entirely dishonest to not admit this.
.
From the Warren Commission testimony of Billy Lovelady:
"Mr. BALL - Had people started to run? [/FONT]
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. [/FONT]
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? [/FONT]
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes."
[/FONT]From the Warren Commission testimony of Bill Shelley:
"Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?[/FONT]
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.[/FONT]
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?[/FONT]
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.[/FONT]
Mr. BALL - Going to watch the rest of the parade were you?[/FONT]
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes."
[/FONT]"Mr. SHELLEY - We ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and Truly.[/FONT]
Mr. BALL - And Truly?[/FONT]
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.[/FONT]
Mr. BALL - Did you see them go into the building?[/FONT]
MMr. SHELLEY - No; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in.[/FONT]
Mr. BALL - Were they moving at the time, walking or running?[/FONT]
Mr. SHELLEY - Well, they were moving, yes.[/FONT]
Mr. BALL - Were they running?[/FONT]
Mr. SHELLEY - That, I couldn't swear to; there were so many people around."
[/FONT]Sorry, Albert but, unless Shelley and Lovelady both committed perjury and lied about Gloria Calvery, that CANNOT be Calvery seen running toward the TSBD steps in the Darnell film, as they both clearly stated they did NOT leave the steps until they had spoken to Gloria Calvery ON the steps.
Despite your vivid fantasies about Running Woman speaking to the two men walking down the Elm St. extension, the testimonies say this cannot be Calvery.
Do you believe Shelley and Lovelady committed perjury and lied to the Warren Commission?