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Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Printable Version

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Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Richard Gilbride - 13-05-2017

I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see Jim DiEugenio's endorsement of the lunchroom hoax research essayed by Bart Kamp. This is a big mistake, Jim, that you fortunately partake of with several other JFK heavyweights. All of you are on the wrong side of history.

The hoax is a sophist construction that yields nothing. Worse than that, this pernicious theory points its gullible followers directly away from the solution to what happened, just after the assassination, inside the Texas School Book Depository. It is skewed thinking, not right-angled thinking, and serves only to increase the degenerate element in the research community.

I am a man of my word, and promise a definitive disassembly of Kamp's essay. I have a ton of work commitments and probably won't be able to deliver that until the deep of next winter. But plain and simple, as I have stated several times over the past few years, the hoax is a demonstrable falsehood. Believers in the reality of the lunchroom incident should relax, and rest assured that they live in the truth.

All you need to add, Jim, if you wish to give your new website readers a fair & balanced perspective, is to add something along the lines of:
"Veteran researcher Richard Gilbride has studied the lunchroom evidence in great depth for many years, and is thoroughly convinced that the hoax methodology is flawed and that the lunchroom incident actually happened. Samples of his thinking may be found in pp. 26-36 of the essay Inside Job at his website, and on the Education Forum thread One Last Thing Before Xmas: 2nd Floor Lunchroom Encounter."

Being a TSBD specialist is a lot like what I do for a living, house painting. Everyone's an expert- until there's a crisis.

By the way, I am still banned at the EdForum. I was informed by administrator James Gordon in mid-December, after a post insinuating that Sean Murphy has a drinking problem, that my posting privileges would be suspended until "sometime in January". I made 2 appeals to a moderator back then, but was still not reinstated. And so James Gordon has achieved censorship of a leading Murphy critic, and has tailored the discussion to a pro-Murphy bias. In that regard, it is noteworthy that Gordon's homeland of England has no protected right to free speech.

***********************************************

"4th floor man" is a sophist derivation from Baker's initial recounting at DPD Headquarters late afternoon on November 22nd- it can be cogently argued, to the contrary, that he never existed. That Baker was simply confused about the TSBD floor layout, since it was a building he had never been in before.

But it is an empirically-derived fact that the west freight elevator came downstairs by 12:32. Right in time for the appearance of James Worrell's brown-suit man. There isn't a contrary argument to the arrival downstairs of the west freight elevator by 12:32.

To maintain that brown-suit man came down the elevator and snuck out the back to be seen by James Worrell, connects the witnessing of brown-suit man with an empirically-derived fact. But to maintain that brown-suit man was "4th floor man" connects him with a sophist derivation- it isn't necessarily true that 4th-floor man existed at all. But it is necessarily true that the elevator came downstairs by 12:32.

And so it still cannot be maintained that the hoax hypothesis has produced any substantive, tangible leads in its 10+ years of existence. As a school of thought it is a fruitless tree. "Ye shall know them by their fruits"- and this tree has been barren precisely because it is artificial.

It is as if Sean Murphy planted a plastic tree in the backyard, Greg Parker watered it, and Bart Kamp has now tilled its soil with fertilizer. Aren't you now adding a plastic pear, Jim, by contending that Baker encountered Worrell's brown-suit man on the 4th floor?

*************************************************

We will never know the exact reason why Baker, when composing his affidavit, didn't mention that Oswald was brought in & seated in the same small interrogation room. Baker did mention this shortly afterward to homicide detective Marvin Johnson, did he not? And look at Johnson's description of the place of the Oswald sighting- "On about the 4th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor."

It can be cogently argued that Baker, unfamiliar with the TSBD and just back from Parkland & Love Field, thought he had run up the entranceway stairs to the 2nd floor, and so thought that the split-level corner stairs brought him up to "about​ the 4th."

Baker had just learned about the President's death, and Tippit's murder, and saw a welt on the eye of the suspect they brought in. Not just another day at the office, was it? Surreal with tension there, I would say. Maybe a good time to keep your cards close to your chest.

We have a similar example in this JFK case- we don't know the exact psychological reason why Oswald left his wedding ring on Marina's dresser that morning. Almost certainly, this is an indicator he was connected in some way with an assassination plot. But only the skewed thinking of a sophist would leap to the conclusion that this ring episode means he was an assassin.

***********************************************

Thanks to Albert Doyle, Larry Trotter, and Scott Kaiser for holding the fort, and please keep the faith if I seem to be missing in action. I'm in almost 100% agreement with what you guys have posted on this thread.

Out of the blue, I received a new book in mid-February from an old friend from my Lancer days. I told him I'd give him feedback and write a review- it's eaten up about 80 hours of spare time set aside for JFK stuff. It's a dense, Harvey & Lee spinoff and I've been making notes as I go. Some of it improves on John Armstrong- there's geneological discoveries, dual military enlistment proofs, signature analysis that was right in the Warren volumes but got missed- but big chunks of it has no worth that I can see. I'm almost done, about 50 pages to go.

With that done, I'll be able to turn my attention to disassembling Bart Kamp's essay. That this fool is even taken seriously reflects very poorly on the state of the intelligentsia in the JFK research community. Generally speaking, they lack the gift of discernment, which sobriety bestows in good time.


Ethanol, a gasoline additive, is the active ingredient ingredient in beer, wine and hard liquor.


Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Scott Kaiser - 13-05-2017

Quote:It is as if Sean Murphy planted a plastic tree in the backyard, Greg Parker watered it, and Bart Kamp has now tilled its soil with fertilizer.

Translation, Parker pissed all over it, and Kamp crapped on it?

Curious?


Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - LR Trotter - 13-05-2017

Thanks Mr Gilbride. Although I make no claim of expertise, I have studied the events of 11/22/'63 a considerable amount, and I find it amazing that a debate of established facts can be ongoing after 53 plus years. It is disappointing as well.
In any event, your comment is very well put, and correct.



Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Mark A. O'Blazney - 13-05-2017

Richard Gilbride Wrote:I am disappointed, but not surprised, to see Jim DiEugenio's endorsement of the lunchroom hoax research essayed by Bart Kamp. This is a big mistake, Jim, that you fortunately partake of with several other JFK heavyweights. All of you are on the wrong side of history.

The hoax is a sophist construction that yields nothing. Worse than that, this pernicious theory points its gullible followers directly away from the solution to what happened, just after the assassination, inside the Texas School Book Depository. It is skewed thinking, not right-angled thinking, and serves only to increase the degenerate element in the research community.

I am a man of my word, and promise a definitive disassembly of Kamp's essay. I have a ton of work commitments and probably won't be able to deliver that until the deep of next winter. But plain and simple, as I have stated several times over the past few years, the hoax is a demonstrable falsehood. Believers in the reality of the lunchroom incident should relax, and rest assured that they live in the truth.

All you need to add, Jim, if you wish to give your new website readers a fair & balanced perspective, is to add something along the lines of:
"Veteran researcher Richard Gilbride has studied the lunchroom evidence in great depth for many years, and is thoroughly convinced that the hoax methodology is flawed and that the lunchroom incident actually happened. Samples of his thinking may be found in pp. 26-36 of the essay Inside Job at his website, and on the Education Forum thread One Last Thing Before Xmas: 2nd Floor Lunchroom Encounter."

Being a TSBD specialist is a lot like what I do for a living, house painting. Everyone's an expert- until there's a crisis.

By the way, I am still banned at the EdForum. I was informed by administrator James Gordon in mid-December, after a post insinuating that Sean Murphy has a drinking problem, that my posting privileges would be suspended until "sometime in January". I made 2 appeals to a moderator back then, but was still not reinstated. And so James Gordon has achieved censorship of a leading Murphy critic, and has tailored the discussion to a pro-Murphy bias. In that regard, it is noteworthy that Gordon's homeland of England has no protected right to free speech.

***********************************************

"4th floor man" is a sophist derivation from Baker's initial recounting at DPD Headquarters late afternoon on November 22nd- it can be cogently argued, to the contrary, that he never existed. That Baker was simply confused about the TSBD floor layout, since it was a building he had never been in before.

But it is an empirically-derived fact that the west freight elevator came downstairs by 12:32. Right in time for the appearance of James Worrell's brown-suit man. There isn't a contrary argument to the arrival downstairs of the west freight elevator by 12:32.

To maintain that brown-suit man came down the elevator and snuck out the back to be seen by James Worrell, connects the witnessing of brown-suit man with an empirically-derived fact. But to maintain that brown-suit man was "4th floor man" connects him with a sophist derivation- it isn't necessarily true that 4th-floor man existed at all. But it is necessarily true that the elevator came downstairs by 12:32.

And so it still cannot be maintained that the hoax hypothesis has produced any substantive, tangible leads in its 10+ years of existence. As a school of thought it is a fruitless tree. "Ye shall know them by their fruits"- and this tree has been barren precisely because it is artificial.

It is as if Sean Murphy planted a plastic tree in the backyard, Greg Parker watered it, and Bart Kamp has now tilled its soil with fertilizer. Aren't you now adding a plastic pear, Jim, by contending that Baker encountered Worrell's brown-suit man on the 4th floor?

*************************************************

We will never know the exact reason why Baker, when composing his affidavit, didn't mention that Oswald was brought in & seated in the same small interrogation room. Baker did mention this shortly afterward to homicide detective Marvin Johnson, did he not? And look at Johnson's description of the place of the Oswald sighting- "On about the 4th floor Officer Baker apprehended a man that was walking away from the stairway on that floor."

It can be cogently argued that Baker, unfamiliar with the TSBD and just back from Parkland & Love Field, thought he had run up the entranceway stairs to the 2nd floor, and so thought that the split-level corner stairs brought him up to "about​ the 4th."

Baker had just learned about the President's death, and Tippit's murder, and saw a welt on the eye of the suspect they brought in. Not just another day at the office, was it? Surreal with tension there, I would say. Maybe a good time to keep your cards close to your chest.

We have a similar example in this JFK case- we don't know the exact psychological reason why Oswald left his wedding ring on Marina's dresser that morning. Almost certainly, this is an indicator he was connected in some way with an assassination plot. But only the skewed thinking of a sophist would leap to the conclusion that this ring episode means he was an assassin.

***********************************************

Thanks to Albert Doyle, Larry Trotter, and Scott Kaiser for holding the fort, and please keep the faith if I seem to be missing in action. I'm in almost 100% agreement with what you guys have posted on this thread.

Out of the blue, I received a new book in mid-February from an old friend from my Lancer days. I told him I'd give him feedback and write a review- it's eaten up about 80 hours of spare time set aside for JFK stuff. It's a dense, Harvey & Lee spinoff and I've been making notes as I go. Some of it improves on John Armstrong- there's geneological discoveries, dual military enlistment proofs, signature analysis that was right in the Warren volumes but got missed- but big chunks of it has no worth that I can see. I'm almost done, about 50 pages to go.

With that done, I'll be able to turn my attention to disassembling Bart Kamp's essay. That this fool is even taken seriously reflects very poorly on the state of the intelligentsia in the JFK research community. Generally speaking, they lack the gift of discernment, which sobriety bestows in good time.


Ethanol, a gasoline additive, is the active ingredient ingredient in beer, wine and hard liquor.

Yes, Mr. Gilbride;

Mssrs. Doyle, Trotter and Kaiser have certainly "held the fort" here, and shall keep alive the 'flame of faith' during your future 'missing moments' at this forum.

Godspeed, Onward & All Hail !!!


Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - LR Trotter - 13-05-2017

Pertaining to this discussion, it appears as though Mr Doyle has been placed on the "inactive" list. I recently attempted to PM him, but the message inbox seems to be full. And, from time to time, Mr Kaiser's posting seems to end up in other threads with a separate topic(s). Both situations, whether right or wrong, tend to raise questions.


Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Mark A. O'Blazney - 16-05-2017

LR Trotter Wrote:Pertaining to this discussion, it appears as though Mr Doyle has been placed on the "inactive" list. I recently attempted to PM him, but the message inbox seems to be full. And, from time to time, Mr Kaiser's posting seems to end up in other threads with a separate topic(s). Both situations, whether right or wrong, tend to raise questions.

Yes, Mr. Trotter. I, too, am awaiting responses from Mssrs. Doyle and Kaiser.

I'm sure glad Scott pulled out of that book deal with Trine Day when Millegan wanted to have him insert corroborating "fake news" to Judy's book about "her Lee".

It makes one wonder about other authors there, as well as other publishing houses that feed upon each others' sources. Ouroboros. +


Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Richard Gilbride - 21-05-2017

Not only did Bart Kamp ignore my 6 critiques of the lunchroom hoax hypothesis. In his award-winning essay he ignored
Lovita Irby, an eyewitness to Oswald in the lunchroom.

My 6 critiques were debated with Kamp himself in the Education Forum thread One Last Thing Before Xmas: 2nd Floor Lunchroom Encounter. They are also delineated in the locked thread presently on p. 5 of the topics on this Deep Politics Forum, in Sean Murphy- Wrong Again!!! They still stand up.

Lovita Irby, a teenager, was standing near the corner of Houston & Elm at the time of the assassination. After the shooting she rushed into the Texas School Book Depository. She saw Oswald getting a Coke out of a machine on the 2nd floor and "being totally calm".

Lovita happened to be the granddaughter of DPD homicide detective Jim Leavelle. She grew up to become an accomplished artist & photographer and worked as a consultant in Oliver Stone's JFK.

My opinion is that she entered the building well after Baker, who made his mad dash with Truly to the elevators and then 2nd-floor lunchroom, where they had their 30-second encounter with Oswald. Well after they had left, Lovita Irby went into the lunchroom and saw Oswald getting a Coke from the machine. Somewhere near 120 seconds after the shooting.

I hope to have much more information about Lovita Irby, which will be included in my essay disassembling Kamp & the lunchroom hoax brigade.

Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat

Those whom God wishes to destroy, he first drives mad


Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - LR Trotter - 24-05-2017

Mark A. O'Blazney Wrote:
LR Trotter Wrote:Pertaining to this discussion, it appears as though Mr Doyle has been placed on the "inactive" list. I recently attempted to PM him, but the message inbox seems to be full. And, from time to time, Mr Kaiser's posting seems to end up in other threads with a separate topic(s). Both situations, whether right or wrong, tend to raise questions.

Yes, Mr. Trotter. I, too, am awaiting responses from Mssrs. Doyle and Kaiser.

I'm sure glad Scott pulled out of that book deal with Trine Day when Millegan wanted to have him insert corroborating "fake news" to Judy's book about "her Lee".

It makes one wonder about other authors there, as well as other publishing houses that feed upon each others' sources. Ouroboros. +

Speaking for myself, as I believe I am capable of doing, I don't recall indicating that I was awaiting any response from Mr Doyle or Mr Kaiser.
Plainly stated, Mr O'Blazney does not speak for me!



Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Richard Gilbride - 28-05-2017

Larry, keep walking in your integrity, which is nice to see and not a universal commodity in the JFK research community these days.

I'm also concerned about the suspension of Mr. Doyle's posting privileges. He is almost always perceptive, has a deep knowledge base, and is a cutting diagnostician. I rather enjoy his sharp but gentlemanly tongue and have been reading his posts for many years, even while a member of other forums. He got game, like they say on the basketball court.

It strikes me as hypocritical that a forum advertised as Deep Politics would ostracize one of its leading JFK scholars, apparently due to his refusal to buckle to the mob mentality's bully pulpit.

"For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people."

- President John F. Kennedy
Remarks on the 20th Anniversary of the Voice of America
February 26, 1962


Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter - Richard Gilbride - 03-06-2017

I have an older lunchroom essay from 2014 soon to be posted in the ESSAYS section at my website at http://www.jfkinsidejob.com; it is titled The Lunchroom Incident: A Short Proof and Long Explanation.

The proof employs deductive reasoning- that marvelous tool of Aristotelian logic- using the Stroud document to conclude that Adams & Styles passed Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom.

There isn't a one-in-a-million chance that these 4th-floor office girls made it out the rear door of the warehouse before Truly & Baker got to the will-call counter up front. They never saw the girls.

Film studies (I have double-checked the timing on these) place Baker arriving at the bottom of the entranceway steps at Z-313 plus about 22.5 seconds. Truly, whom he brushed past only 10 feet in front of the entranceway, caught up with him in the front lobby. And there are no witness reports of these two men lingering in the front lobby, deciding what to do. What they did do was double-time it to the elevators at the rear of the warehouse. This took just "a few seconds" according to Truly's 1964 CBS Warren Report interview. Baker in fact bumped into Truly at the will-call counter.

And thus the men arrived at the freight elevator area before the young ladies, and also arrived at the 2nd-floor landing before them.

And supervisor Dorothy Garner saw the men come up to the 4th-floor landing after she had seen the girls descend.

And it is painfully obvious that Adams & Styles passed Truly & Baker on the stairs. They didn't see them because the men were in a confrontation with Oswald inside the 2nd-floor lunchroom. And there is nothing in the testimony (III, p. 225) that precludes this circumstance.

TRULY: I opened the door back and leaned in this way.
BELIN: And where was Lee Harvey Oswald at the time you saw him?
TRULY: He was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside- he was just inside the lunchroom door.
BELIN: All right.
TRULY: 2 or 3 feet, possibly... When I reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at Oswald. The officer turned this way and said, "This man work here?" And I said, "Yes."
BELIN: And then what happened?
TRULY: Then we left Lee Harvey Oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor.

If you've ever seen this Secret Service re-enactment film made a few days after the assassination, you've noticed that the infamous plate-glass windowed vestibule door closes in 3-4 seconds. Belin never specifically asked whether this door had closed since the thrust of this part of the testimony was about Baker confronting Oswald, and this automatic door's closing was an inconsequential detail.

Truly described Baker as just inside the lunchroom doorframe, and Oswald as 2-3 feet inside the lunchroom. Baker & Oswald weren't in profile to him, and Truly in fact walked across the 8-foot-wide vestibule to get next to Baker. Truly knew details that can only have come from standing right beside Baker. Later in that page of testimony he described how the gun was "almost touching" Oswald, and how he noticed nothing in either of Oswald's hands.

And they left him "immediately"- a colloquial expression. Truly didn't say "instantly". And Baker had estimated the length of their encounter as 30 seconds. During which timeframe the office girls passed them by. This is even suggested in the Warren Report, p. 154: "If [Adams] descended from the fourth to the first floor as fast as she claimed in her testimony, she would have seen Baker or Truly on the first floor or on the stairs, unless they were already in the second-floor lunchroom talking to Oswald."

This, then, is a substantive, tangible result from accepting the reality of the lunchroom incident. With the aid of the Stroud document, we now understand that Adams & Styles passed by Truly & Baker while they were in the lunchroom.

And this proof holds, even though I made a mistake in the girls' route down. Sandra Styles had mistakenly recalled attempting to use the passenger elevator, but Vicki Adams corrected her and said they used the back door of their office.

A skeptic may quibble over the values I selected for Adams' and Baker's relative timeframes, but there is an independent, existential component common to these timeframes that seals the deal- that the girls arrived downstairs well after Baker had left the elevator area. Because Barry Ernest found out that a "large black man" had been encountered by both Adams and Baker on the ground floor of the warehouse. I incorporated this on p. 29 of my 2015 mega-essay Inside Job.

In 2010, when I read The Girl on the Stairs, I immediately recognized that the Stroud document meant that the office girls passed the men in the lunchroom, and posted that at JFK Lancer specifically to Sean Murphy. I knew that it destroyed his lunchroom hoax hypothesis.

He never responded. Instead, he soon made bitter accusations that Barry Ernest was a dishonest researcher. Sean Murphy then went into a shell and in 2013 came out with his PrayerMan hypothesis, which was coupled with a new postulate that Truly & Baker had in actuality taken, not the stairs, but the west freight elevator up to the 5th.

I downloaded about 100 pages from the PrayerMan thread and disassembled Murphy's new postulate in the last 2 pages of my 2014 lunchroom essay.