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Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Brian Doyle - 24-03-2023
I think I have put the puzzle pieces together in the Depository in a significant way that constitutes new progress in the conspiracy evidence...
A few years ago it dawned on me that there was a "Causal" dimension to the evidence in the Lobby that hadn't quite been recognized by the main heavyweight researchers who developed that evidence...It dawned on me that Mrs Reid's Oswald in the White T-Shirt continued on down to the Lobby after going through the 2nd Floor Offices...That Oswald was "Lee" who probably exited the Passenger Elevator on the 3rd Floor in Armstrong's "6th Floor Escape" scenario and went to the 2nd Floor Lunch Room where he bought a Coca Cola as a prop so witnesses would focus on the Coke and not notice the subtle differences between Lee and Harvey...
To get back to the "causal" part - seeing this scenario of two Oswalds it dawned on me that Lee in the White T-Shirt kept going down the SE front stairs and descended in to the Lobby where "Harvey" was already located on the other end by the doors...Harvey was in the Lobby waiting for his supervisor Shelley to give him the OK to go...Harvey had just "come downstairs to see what the commotion was all about" after being stopped by Baker in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...When Harvey saw Lee he panicked and tried to exit through the front door...A cop who had been stationed there saw Harvey's anxiousness to leave and detained him, taking interest in his heightened need to exit...
By this time Shelley had come back in to the Depository through the west entrance after his trip to the railyard...Being CIA and part of the conspiracy, Shelley saw the predicament "Oswald" was in and came up and OK-ed him as an employee with that cop...The cop lowered his interest but then told Harvey to step aside from the front door egress...That "step aside" part is very important because it shows that this occurred in the Lobby and not the 2nd Floor Lunch Room where Truly said Baker never said a word after Truly OK-ed Oswald...Truly said Baker just turned without saying anything and continued running upstairs...
Part of what helped me crack this was my realization that Harry Holmes was outside of the gag order loop and therefore was not aware that he was giving away incriminating information in his Commission statement...Harry had overheard Oswald describing two stops by cops in the Depository...One by Baker in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room and one by an un-named cop in the Lobby...Because of this mixing of stories Holmes mentioned the very important fact that Oswald had "come downstairs to see what the commotion was all about" before being stopped by the cop...That coming downstairs was from the 2nd Floor Lunch Room to the Lobby...Holmes also directly added that the stop happened on the 1st Floor in the Lobby...
The reason the man who OK-ed Oswald is referred to as "superintendent" instead of "Manager Truly" is because that man was Shelley and it was covered-up...It is common sense that if the superintendent who OK-ed Oswald in the Lobby was Truly he would have said so...You'll never find any statement where Truly said he OK-ed Oswald in the Lobby...Truly was still upstairs at the time this happened around 4 minutes after the shots...The conspirators kept mum about all this and hoped people would conflate Baker's stop of Oswald in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room with this stop in the Lobby...The reason why they covered it up is because it would be all too obvious that Shelley was helping Oswald and then proceeded to help Oswald out the rear Loading Dock exit and around the police cordon...The plotters didn't want Shelley answering why he assisted a presidential assassin around a police order to step aside and wait...They covered it up because they knew someone like me would eventually put the puzzle pieces together...
Proof that there's serious merit to this scenario is the fact that the Warren Commission gave almost no attention to Oswald's exit from the Depository...Oswald's leaving the Depository was some of the most important evidence...The Commission gave it almost no investigation...They were obviously worried about something and that something was almost certainly Harvey & Lee stumbling in to the same space and almost blowing the game...Lee saw what was happening and ducked in to the Utility Closet under the NE front stairs...Ochus Campbell would see Lee in there hiding when he came back from the Knoll...At around 5 minutes after the shots Harvey exited out the rear Loading Dock and Lee then wound his way out the rear of the Depository, and in the other direction to the west, and to the Knoll, in order not to make that mistake again...Helen Forrest and Roger Craig would see Lee cross the Knoll and get in the Station Wagon...The causal element to Harvey & Lee's directions being unavoidable...Harvey didn't go east and Lee went west for no reason...They were making sure they never crossed paths again...
Armstrong deserves credit but he came up just short...He failed to put the puzzle pieces he had discovered together to show the real picture...This scenario fits like tight masonry work and clicks...It puts the puzzle together in the Depository...
Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Brian Doyle - 29-03-2023
About 2 years ago Barry Ernest and John Armstrong had a debate about whether Victoria Adams & Sandra Styles saw Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the stairs on the 1st Floor after they ran down from the 4th Floor...Armstrong insisted they did and Ernest suggested they didn't and that the statements saying they did were forged by the authorities...The issue is best described in this article by DiEugenio where Ernest answers Armstrong:
https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/barry-ernest-replies-to-john-armstrong-re-victoria-adams
If I could cut to the chase, Armstrong is dead wrong on this and Ernest is correct...
I used to talk to Armstrong on the telephone...Hargrove told me that Armstrong told him that I was brilliant and really knew my stuff...When I tried to explain to Armstrong that the two men seen going up the Elm St extension were provably Lovelady & Shelley Armstrong told Hargrove that I was an idiot and that it was a mistake to ever talk to me...Hargrove was embarrassed and apologized...He added that he considered me the second best researcher behind Armstrong himself...
The problem here is Armstrong is dead set on claiming Lovelady & Shelley were at the back of the 1st Floor turning off the power to the elevators as part of the 6th Floor Escape Theory when Truly & Baker ran in...When Armstrong cut me off I was trying to explain to him that the physical distance from where you see Lovelady & Shelley in Darnell, and around the west side of the Depository and back in the west entrance, was too far to allow Adams & Styles to see Lovelady & Shelley on the 1st Floor...This is a matter of simple science...The physical distance and timing of Truly & Baker running in from where they are in Darnell compared to that of Lovelady & Shelley is too short a distance to allow Lovelady & Shelley to go all the way around and in and still meet Truly & Baker...Also weighing against Armstrong was Richard Gilbride's discovery that the elevator circuits were high amperage cable breakers that were too heavy a gauge to be located in the Depository's breaker box...Gilbride located the Depository electrician and he told him that the elevator breakers were located separately...Probably in the basement...That's otherwise know as good detective work...
The next scientific measurement is that of the timing and distance of Adams & Styles from the 4th Floor window down to the rear exit on the 1st Floor...If Adams & Styles bolted from the 4th Floor windows at about 10 seconds after the shots a scenario becomes possible where it took Adams & Styles 10 seconds to reach the 4th Floor NW staircase...At 8 seconds a storey, the 3 stories from the 4th Floor to 1st Floor could be covered in 24 seconds...The girls could have exited the building 6 seconds after, therefore getting them out of the building 50 seconds after the shots...
Couch/Darnell is about 30 seconds after the shots...Truly and Baker are still well out of the building...If we posit 8 seconds for Baker to get past the crowd on the steps, and 10 seconds for Baker to look for the stairs in the Lobby and allow Truly to catch up to him - and a few more seconds for the locked swinging gate, Truly & Baker do not get to the part of the 1st Floor where they can see the rear until, say, 54 seconds after the shots...This scenario is very plausible and it allows Adams & Styles to slip out just ahead of Truly & Baker as they ran to the 1st Floor elevators...It also allows Oswald to hear Adams & Styles clatter by the 2nd Floor Lunch Room and get up from the table and walk over to the Vestibule Door Window in order see who was coming down from the upstairs...
It is problematic and a sign of the dysfunction in the research community that there is no discussion on this...At a time when the actual circumstances of the conspiracy are finally coming in to focus and the puzzle pieces are coming together the research community has now gone in to a non-discussion mode where no recognition of this is given...
RE: Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Richard Gilbride - 01-04-2023
Brian, there are some accuracy problems in your posts here that are going to necessitate a re-working of your hypotheses...
You say that Holmes "had overheard Oswald describing two stops by cops in the Depository..."
But Holmes said nothing about Officer Baker (i.e. a cop in the 2nd-floor lunchroom), neither in his Dec. 17th memorandum nor in his testimony. His testimony did give us some details about his encounter with a cop on the landing, and about a coke. But nothing about an encounter with a cop in the 2nd-floor lunchroom. We don't have any indication that Oswald talked about encountering a cop in the lunchroom during his Sunday-morning interrogation.
I have never been comfortable with Armstrong's idea that "Lee Oswald" went through the 2nd-floor office, in his t-shirt carrying a coke. This was "Harvey Oswald", in my view, and Mrs. Reid simply had a blind spot trying to recall his clothing and guessed wrong. "Lee Oswald" I agree was in the 6th-floor west window; he went out the west freight elevator and escaped the building via the West Annex.
You further conjecture that Shelley helped alleviate the confusion of having two Oswalds in the lobby/landing area (rather poor planning by the plotters!!) so that "Lee saw what was happening and ducked into the Utility Closet under the NE front stairs..." where Ochus Campbell saw him.
As I detailed in the section Biffle's Error and the Cloaking of Carolyn Arnold on p. 72 of Death of the Lunchroom Hoax, Biffle said he had "furiously scrambled" about 150 pages of notes , hadn't ever been in the building before, and as he went back to his news desk and hurried off an article about Oswald's first post-assassination sighting, simply made a mistake about the Oswald-Baker encounter taking place "in a 1st-floor storage room." It makes no sense that Baker would look for an upper-floor gunman in a cramped little room on the 1st floor. Please re-read that section. It was written with care and with an eye toward future accuracy. There is a world of difference between writing on a forum post and writing an essay.
In your second post you talk about how "the Depository electrician told [me] that the elevator breakers were located separately." This, again, is not accurate. As I detail on p. 27 of my 2021 essay Two Big Problems with the Passenger Elevator, I contacted a university professor of electrical engineering- someone who knew about engineering capabilities in the 1900s and 1960s. And he held the firm opinion that a modernized system definitely would have had a kill switch in the basement.
The important point- regarding whether the 1st-floor breaker box could be used to shut off the passenger elevator- I found more information about through an online post by an elevator electrical engineer/licensed elevator mechanic. He informed me that elevators are usually powered by an AC/DC motor-generator that electrically isolates it from the rest of the building's electrical system.
Theoretically, the 1st-floor breaker box could still be used to shut off the AC/DC motor-generator and therefore the passenger elevator. But Lovelady's presence there is further speculated by Armstrong for shutting off electrical power in the building- which demonstrably did not happen. And his passenger elevator escape theory is supported by nothing more than his own supposition. There is good reason to maintain that Lovelady did not go directly back into the building after the shots. And the freight elevator escape theory is supported by several pieces of evidence.
Lastly, I beg to differ that "a scenario becomes possible where it took 10 seconds for Adams & Styles to reach the 4th Floor NW staircase..."
Initially, she said, "we had to run around a group of three tables, like banquet tables, and then out the door to the stairway." Additionally (although she didn't specify, and there are no available photos) the storage area was crammed with book cartons (so was the basement, and 2nd-floor landing)- so they traveled the perimeter (not a bee-line) as they made their way to the corner stairway.
It is simply wishful thinking to say that they arrived downstairs 50 seconds after the shots. It is more like 75 seconds. They would have been seen by Truly & Baker, crossing the rear of the warehouse, when they reached the will-call counter. Adams & Styles passed by the 2nd-floor lunchroom while the men were inside.
Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Brian Doyle - 02-04-2023
It is very important to pay careful attention to Harry Holmes' Commission testimony...Holmes was in an eccentric orbit as Postal Inspector that was outside the loop of the rest of the organized official story...Because of this he said too much and it is captured in his testimony if you know what to look for...
The first thing the Commission tried to do was conflate Oswald telling the negro workers to send the elevator back up with Holmes' locating of Oswald in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...The idea was to suggest that Oswald came down from the 6th Floor when he talked about coming downstairs to see what the commotion was all about...If you are hip to what is happening here you will pay careful attention to Holmes specifically telling the Commission that none of the Sunday interrogators seemed to be interested in exactly what floor Oswald was on...Holmes said "Nobody seemed to ask him"...The reason for that, Richard, is because the interrogators knew it was the 2nd Floor Lunch Room
(This website is not allowing me to cut & paste quotes so you can find this testimony by Googling "Prayer Man Harry Holmes")
The next quote by Holmes is very important so I'll transcribe it manually:
" I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to steps aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about."
It is very important to understand what is happening here in the overall context...Belin is not asking any questions about this being the Lobby because he is trying his hardest to conflate the 2nd Floor Lunch Room Encounter with this second encounter in the Lobby...Belin knows there was a second stop in the Lobby where Shelley bailed Harvey out so he is trying to mute it by playing dumb...The "Front Door" is in the Lobby so there is no doubt that that is what is being referenced here...It is also after Holmes quoted Oswald as saying he "went downstairs" (with the interrogators seeming to not be interested from what floor)...There's no doubt this is the Lobby because Oswald said he was about to go outside when he was stopped...You can't go outside from the 2nd Floor...
If you pay attention to Linguistic Forensics Oswald used the specific words "stepped up" to describe how the "superintendent" came forward..."Stepped Up" is how you would describe someone who was amongst the crowd in the Lobby and not how you would describe Truly rushing back to find Baker...Shelley had returned to the Lobby and he "stepped up"...The reason why Oswald says "superintendent" instead of "Manager Truly" is because it was Shelley...
If you analyze Truly's testimony he specifically detailed that once he cleared Oswald to Baker in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room that Baker never said a word and just turned and ran upstairs...This is proof that there was a second stop of Oswald in the Lobby because the front door had an egress that needed to be kept clear and the un-named cop told Oswald to step aside from it...After all, Oswald already made clear this happened at the front door...There was no reason to step aside in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...It is funny how no Conspiracy researchers ever ask how exactly Oswald was told to step aside by a cop and then just walked right out the front door anyway right under his nose?...The answer is he didn't...The answer is his "superintendent" helped him out the rear Loading Dock...In 2002 Buell Frazier finally admitted to Gary Mack that he witnessed the Long-Sleeved Oswald exit from the rear Loading Dock...It was damning evidence he had with-held up to then...
Belin then asks Holmes where did the cop stop Oswald?:
Holmes: He said it was in the Vestibule.
Belin: He said he was in the Vestibule?
Holmes: Or approaching the door to the Vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Belin: Did he state it was on what floor?
Holmes: First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.
Belin: Did he say anything about a Coca Cola or anything like that, if you remember?
Holmes: Seems like he said he was drinking a Coca Cola, standing there by the Coca Cola machine drinking a Coca Cola.
Holmes' statement here is a gold mine and helps crack the case...It is not true that Holmes gave no indication of the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...If you trace the origins of the word "Vestibule" in the Book Depository it has been traced back to the enclosure to the 2nd Floor Lunch Room that was built recently in order to muffle noise from the creaky staircase...Someone found the blueprints for the construction job for the Vestibule and the enclosure was clearly labeled "Vestibule"...The uncredible researcher Bart Kamp has been brainwashing researchers by repeatedly posting that "Vestibule" meant "Lobby", but one look at those blueprints and there is no doubt that "Vestibule" refers to the enclosure over the 2nd Floor Lunch Room entrance...I have no doubt that Oswald referred to that enclosure as "Vestibule" because he probably heard it from Truly because Truly was connected to its construction...In any case, you will not find any blueprint or source that refers to the Lobby as the "Vestibule"...
It is, again, imperative to pay attention to Holmes' Linguistic Forensics where he says "he had come out to this front part"...Holmes is referring to Oswald coming out to the Vestibule Door Window from the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...This is the end of any suggestion of Oswald having just ran down from the 6th Floor because what Holmes just accidentally did there was describe Oswald getting up from the table and walking out to the Vestibule Window...Belin is being very careful here because he is trying to keep Holmes from divulging any further official story-destroying details...There are, indeed, "two sets of doors" to the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...Again, Richard...The Coca Cola machine is in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room...Holmes makes that quite clear so there is no doubt that the 2nd Floor Lunch Room has been firmly established in Holmes' testimony...
So why does Holmes get so confused between the 1st and 2nd Floors?...The answer is quite simple...It is because he overheard Oswald describing two stops by two cops...One in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room by Baker...Oswald then goes downstairs...And another by an un-named cop in the Lobby that gets covered-up because CIA Shelley helped Oswald around the police cordon...Remember, Truly never said he OK'ed Oswald in the Lobby and no one asked him...The Commission played dumb and let people conflate it with the Lunch Room Encounter under the assumption Holmes was confused...
As to Adams & Styles...Adams said they got to the 1st Floor in about a minute...Mrs Garner said that when she turned to speak to the girls "they were already gone"...We have to assume Mrs Garner watched the Limousine go under the triple overpass and then turned to the girls - which probably didn't take more than 15 seconds...It makes sense that the girls left the window at 10 seconds because they would have to in order to make it to the 1st Floor by 1 minute...Time slows down in emergencies so 50 seconds is not an unreasonable stretch...In any case good detective work would tell you the reason the Commission avoided doing any time trial for the girls' descent is because they were worried about proving what I am saying here...Instead they got Lovelady & Shelley to lie about leaving the front steps 3 minutes after the shots...I seriously think my claim holds water...It certainly explains what made Harvey get up and walk over to the Vestibule Window...If the girls passed the 2nd Floor Lunch Room when Truly & Baker were in there I think they would have heard them...I think they would have heard Truly shout for the elevator...It is a shame the research world never quite got around to asking Adams & Styles this directly...
Lee being in a White T-Shirt is supported by Mrs Reid's direct memory...But a good detective would notice that the Commission never asked Ochus Campbell what his Oswald was wearing...The reason for that is because it was the same White Shirt seen by Roger Craig...You are forgetting, Mr Gilbride, that we have witnesses to two Oswalds departing the Depository in two different directions...I am claiming that this wasn't an accident...It was directly due to the two Oswald's almost blowing the game by accidentally both showing up in the Lobby...They wanted to make sure the same mistake didn't happen again so they exited in different directions...Why would Oswald hide in the Utility Closet?...The Coke was a prop...It was designed to draw attention to the soda in order to make the witnesses not notice the subtle differences between Harvey & Lee...In this scenario it is possible that Baker saw Lee on the 3rd Floor staircase landing...The 3rd Floor hallway was more isolated than the 2nd Floor hallway and had less witnesses, so Lee may have done his 6th Floor Escape route through the 3rd Floor...Armstrong was vehemently opposed to my suggesting this and was testy when I ran it by him...My theory doesn't need Oswald to be seen by Baker on the 3rd Floor, but it is possible and would explain why Baker fudged on Oswald's location in his affidavit...In any case - if Lee exited via the Freight Elevators instead of the Passenger Elevator we are not far apart...I myself think Mrs Garner was still stationed at the 4th Floor Landing at that time and would have seen something - as would Truly & Baker...The 6th Floor floor renovation job smells like a CIA ruse to me and loans merit to Armstrong...Apparently outside people were helping with that job...
It frustrates me that John Armstrong doesn't come to these threads to comment...I believe my research here really puts the final blooms on what is mainly his garden so it is sad that the research world choses to fragment and sulk in their private domains and not celebrate what is basically a solving of the case...This is it...It puts the final puzzle pieces together and the rest falls in to place...
w(This website
RE: Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Richard Gilbride - 05-04-2023
Brian, you are basing your reconstruction on faulty evidence, namely, Frazier's 2002 Sixth Floor Museum interview alleging that he saw Oswald leave the building via the rear loading dock.
This ignores Frazier's 1977 HSCA interview, in which he recounted he'd been "standing out on the curb... standing out with the police" after the shooting sequence, where there was a military man he'd seen the day before. This 1977 transcript used to be posted at ROKC; I haven't visited there in several years and have no idea if it is still available.
WESLEY FRAZIER TAPE 2, p. 1:
MORIARTY: You were saying- where you were when you saw the police and the military person? While you were just standing out on the curb somewhere?
FRAZIER: In the area there while we was standing, out on the curb and saw the military guy that was standing on the curb before. And i knew this guy was the person that they- but, uh, what I seen on the curb was what I had seen before. And I knew that they would- that they would come there- come around for a period of time and then the, uh, person that appeared yesterday- they appeared right away. But, I know that they were right there- they would come there. I knew they would come there.
MORIARTY: And where you're going with this, uh- you, I understand- but, uh- but you had seen- had seen and heard from some person you witnessed there. And then by virtue of, uh, some talk with people, I guess, standing out in the street. And then the extortion or some sort of danger. And you were kind of standing- standing around just looking at things. So we could appreciate it a little better.
FRAZIER: OK, sir, out in the main street, we was actually where was, uh- we was standing out with the police and we- I'm sure that some people were completely with, uh- on the curb there where the assassination occurred. So it looked like a circle, you know, where all these people were- they were around or was either there or was trying to make them so that- to make them lose their expressions so to make the President's assassination had no explanation for them.
Frazier later recounts (TAPE 3, p. 4) that "And I went on down to the basement. Set down and make my (parking) there and sat there and eat my lunch." His 1964 testimony put him there at 12:35.
I recorded this at the Archives when I visited in 2011. This particular cassette was among the clearest of the worn white-noise laden recordings. A few months later, in winter, I acquired a free 30-day trial of professional sound-editing software and painstakingly retrieved what excerpts from 1977 that I could salvage. About 2 hours of the 4-hour interview were beyond repair. And I wrote about this on p. 50 of my 2015 essay Inside Job. Although the HSCA's Jack Moriarty mentioned giving the 4-hour Frazier interview to a secretary for transcription, no transcript has ever been made public by the Archives.
Frazier didn't say anything about this loading-dock sighting in 1977. He is an admitted amateur researcher, and in 2002 added a piece of disinformation onto the Oswald narrative that no one will ever be able to corroborate. He did this in order to get himself in the good graces of conspiracy researchers; by doing so he deflected attention away from Eddie Shields' HSCA allegation that Frazier had dropped Oswald off at the building that morning (which meant his testimony about Oswald carrying a package ahead of him through the railyards was a complete fabrication) and away from his being alone in the basement when the elevators lost their power, during the 1st minute of the police search (meaning that Frazier was the one who cut off the elevator power). Neither Shields' allegation nor the elevator power shutoff were mentioned in Frazier's 2021 book Steering Truth.
Brian, your entire reconstruction for how the two Oswalds crossed paths in the lobby is based upon Frazier's faulty 2002 allegation, and Armstrong's mistaken interpretation of Mrs. Reid's clothing description.
As far as your reluctance to admit that Adams & Styles couldn't have made it from their 4th-floor office window to the 4th-floor staircase in 10 seconds- did you even bother to look at my diagram on p. 20 of Two Big Problems with the Passenger Elevator? They traveled twice as far as you have imagined ( a bee-line) and they did this in 3-inch high heels, not Nike track shoes.
It is ludicrous to thereby maintain that they made it downstairs in 50 seconds... (in which case, by the way, they would have been seen across the warehouse floor by Truly & Baker at the will-call counter) ... and were what drew Oswald to the vestibule window, where he was soon seen "slack-jawed" by Officer Baker.
On the contrary, Oswald may have been right at the vestibule window as part of his post-assassination assignment. Or he may have heard Truly yelling for the elevator or thumping up the wooden stairway.
Mark Twain observed that it is easier to fool someone than to get them to admit that they have been fooled. And it may take years to get you away from this line of thinking that has Frazier's disinformation and a faulty Adams/Styles timeline at its heart.
My own opinion as to why Oswald was assigned to the 2nd-floor lunchroom was to play his role in the plot- to intentionally divert Officer Baker's attention from the descending west freight elevator. Oswald wasn't "slack-jawed" at all- on cue, he flinched away from the window suspiciously, and drew Baker into the lunchroom.
It made for a more effective patsy, to give him a critical role in the plot.
Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Brian Doyle - 05-04-2023
Oswald did not exit via the front doors...If he had there would have been witnesses...For Oswald to exit through the front doors he would have to walk out right under the nose of the cop who had just stopped him and told him to step aside...The reason the Warren Commission did not explore or investigate Oswald's leaving through the front door is because they knew he didn't...They didn't want to reveal the real way Oswald exited because it was incriminating...We know Harvey walked up to the bus, so he had to get there some way...Strong evidence that Harvey left via the Loading Dock is seen in Billy Lovelady's trying to con Jarman that he saw Oswald leave via the front doors...Good detective skill will make one realize that the reason Lovelady told this to one of the negro workers was because he was doing disinformation for his CIA partner Shelley...However one has to ask, if Lovelady actually saw Oswald leave via the front door, then why didn't he tell that to the Warren Commission?...Why didn't Roy Truly tell it to the Commission?...Why is Jarman the only person he told that to?...Buell Frazier recently said "Oswald did not leave via the front door"...The way the current JFK research community works is I have made a good case for a second stop of Oswald in the Lobby...That evidence shows that an un-named cop stopped Oswald from exiting the front door under his order...My brilliant case then gets ignored...Richard, the reason why no HSCA official went after Lovelady and asked him why he was telling Jarman he saw Oswald leave through the front doors, but never told that to the Warren Commission, is because they know he is lying and they don't want to pursue the real way Oswald exited...And low and behold Lovelady dies 16 months after Jarman admitted this...Lee also exited via the rear because of that restriction by the un-named cop...There is no other reason to not identify and interview that cop...Frazier is telling a dangerous truth about Oswald leaving via the Loading Dock that took him decades to admit...
Sean Murphy
Aug 7, 2010, 11:32:40 PM
On September 25 1977 James Jarman was interviewed for the HSCA. He
told the interviewers that he, Bonnie Ray Williams and Harold Norman
had run downstairs after the assassination and attempted to leave the
building by the front entrance:
"... as we was running out of the building the police stopped us, he
told us to come back inside the building, so we proceeded back inside
the building. And, after we was inside the building after that, I
heard that Oswald had come down through the office and came down the
front stairs and he was stopped by the officer that had stopped us and
sent us back in the building and Mr. Truly told them that that was
alright, that he worked there, so then, he proceeded own (sic) out the
building and we wondered why he stopped us."
The source for Jarman's information about the incident?
"Well, there was a billy love lady standing out there, he was on the
steps, see... And, Oswald was coming out the door and he (Lovelady,
S.M.) said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the
building, billy love lady said that Mr. Trudy (sic) told the policeman
that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on
down the stairs."
The problem with Jarman's statement to HSCA is that Harry Holmes heard the accurate version, told by Oswald himself, and repeated it to the Commission...The un-named cop at the front door told Oswald to "step aside" AFTER THE "SUPERINTENDENT" OK-ED HIM...This is the key to deciphering Lovelady's disinformation because Lovelady purposefully omitted the part where the cop told Oswald to step aside (and therefore not leave)...You have to realize that Lovelady knows Oswald did not walk on out and down the stairs because Lovelady was out there and saw with his own eyes that that never happened...He's doing disinformation for his CIA partner Shelley and helping cover-up Shelley's helping Oswald out the back...Jarman's statement is nothing less than a corroboration of Holmes' witnessing of Oswald telling of being stopped by a cop in the Lobby...Lovelady lied to Jarman and told him it was Mr Truly who OK-ed Oswald in the Lobby...But Holmes heard the accurate version directly from Oswald and Oswald said "superintendent" (Shelley)...I think Lovelady is lying and he was inside with Shelley when all this happened...Helen Forrest was quite clear that the Oswald she saw in the white shirt had come from the rear of the Depository and had not exited through the front door...Murphy is dishonest because he ignores the part where Jarman said Oswald had "come down"...That was obviously from the Lunch Room Encounter just like Holmes heard...Where Jarman says Oswald came down the front stairs Holmes said "Went Downstairs to see what the commotion was all about"...That's known as solid corroboration and Murphy is totally dishonest when he tries to ignore it...
Frazier's statements in your quotes with Moriarty is one of the most incoherent, mixed-up jumbles of verbiage I have ever seen in a transcript...Linguistic Forensics will tell you the reason for that is because they are both lying and covering something up...In my opinion the reason why Gary Mack never followed-through on Frazier saying he saw Oswald exit through the Loading Dock, and changed the subject in the interview, is because Gary Mack knew that was the truth and was dangerous...You have to realize who Gary Mack was...He was one of the people with the most knowledge of the assassination...His lack of interest in Frazier's witnessing is incriminating...Gary changed the subject instead of reviewing that claim and asking Frazier why he waited so long to admit it...It was one of the questions I was going to ask Frazier if he let me interview him...Remember - there is no other option here since we know Oswald walked up to the Bus/Taxi Encounter...He had to get there some way...Shelley was CIA and knew he had to help fellow CIA Harvey on his way...
No, actually my reconstruction is also based on the authorities not asking Ochus Campbell what his Oswald was wearing...They got away with that under the assumption that he would be wearing the same Brownish-Reddish Long-Sleeved Shirt that Baker saw him in...I personally believe that Geneva Hine was either lying and saw the White T-Shirt Oswald or FBI radically altered her testimony like they did with Sarah Stanton and Carolyn Arnold...In any case Roger Craig saw Lee cross the Knoll and get in a car...He also said Oswald was wearing a white shirt...Richard - you are failing to process that the evidence forces this because we have witnesses for two Oswalds leaving the Depository...Harvey in Long-Sleeves and Lee in a White T-Shirt...Harvey goes to the Bus/Taxi Encounter and Lee goes to the Station Wagon driven by the Dark Complected Man CIA operative...I would hardly believe that Mrs Reid could look at Oswald in a Reddish-Brown Long-Sleeved Shirt and then describe it as a White T-Shirt...It grinds against my evidence analysis abilities...
I mean it is possible that Adams & Styles cruised by the 2nd Floor Lunch Room while Truly & Baker were inside...We know Baker was in there longer than told because Truly continuing to go up the stairs, realizing Baker was not behind him, turning back and going to the Lunch Room, had to take a little while that would translate to the time Baker was in there with Oswald...They shortened the time of the Lunch Room Encounter because they were trying to cover-up the fact they witnessed evidence that Oswald was in there the whole time - like the lunch on the table...However, your version requires that Adams & Styles were not that far from Truly & Baker when they shouted for the elevator and ran up the creaky stairs...Also, your version requires Adams & Styles to not hear Truly & Baker confronting Oswald...It requires the girls to be right on the heels of Truly when he turns back...Something they would not have missed on the creaky stairs...
Your book 'Inside Job' miraculously survived Hurricane Ian even though the room where I kept it was destroyed...I'll try to take a look at your illustration...If you have a link it would be better...However, as far as Oswald flinching, you have to step back to a detective's overview of Oswald's overall presence in that Lunch Room...We know Oswald was not supposed to be seen in that Lunch Room because Sarah Stanton saw him hiding out on the 2nd Floor staircase landing waiting for Mrs Reid to induce the ladies to leave...We know Oswald was cooperating with a plan to hide him in that remote Lunch Room where he could be framed as being upstairs shooting Kennedy....Seeing how the rest of the evidence shows that Oswald was cooperating in his being hidden in that Lunch Room it becomes unlikely that Oswald would then break the very cover he kept through-out and lead a police witness to his Coca Cola and lunch on the table...In my opinion the flinching was to avoid being seen rather than the opposite...It can't make him a more effective patsy if it leads police witnesses to his being in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room during the shots...
Mrs Garner should have been pressed on exactly how long it took before Truly & Baker emerged...
There are a majority of recalcitrant researchers on the internet who are saying "Now that the Lunch Room Encounter has been shown to have never happened"...Those people do not participate in discussions that show how that is wrong...They are trying to push through false claims with a mob-like majority and favoring oversight...
RE: Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Richard Gilbride - 09-04-2023
The hit team used the west freight elevator to escape the building, assisted by Dougherty and Truly. This hypothesis is supported by several pieces of evidence, which are listed at the end of Two Big Problems with the Passenger Elevator (to which I would add: Truly's problems calling for an elevator weren't mentioned until 4 months later). The reconstruction using the passenger elevator to escape, found in Armstrong's Escape from the 6th Floor, is unnecessarily complicated and not supported by any evidence. Just because it is theoretically possible does not mean it actually happened that way. It was much easier, from a practical logistics standpoint, to get the hit team out with the help of a couple of insiders- all the assassins had to do was walk down a flight of stairs to the 5th floor and join Dougherty in the west freight elevator. Truly would cover for them during their descent, by keeping the first responding cop busy in the stairwell.
Oswald's job, in the lunchroom, was to prolong that cop's response time by drawing him inside, and diverting his attention from the descending elevator.
The idea that John Armstrong proposes, that a member of the hit team removed floorboards on the 6th, and rode the passenger elevator down to the 3rd, and then walked through the 2nd-floor central offices cannot be disproven (not by me, anyways). Neither can the idea that the hit team rappelled down the back side of the Depository. Or tied bedsheets together. Etc..... The point being: It only happened one way. The evidence we have points to inside help. Hence, Mrs. Reid's clothing description is completely tenuous; it does not substantively follow that the "t-shirt" man she saw was Lee Oswald. Rather, it was Harvey Oswald, on his way out of the lunchroom, and Mrs. Reid (as often happens) was simply mistaken.
****
Evidently you were unaware of Frazier's 1977 HSCA interview transcript, where he stated he was "standing out on the curb... standing out with the police" after the shots. And you automatically assume that Frazier & Moriarty are lying- since it refutes your reconstruction, which is based on Frazier's surprise allegation in his 2002 interview with Gary Mack ( that Oswald left via the rear loading dock). Your skill with "linguistic forensics" regarding their "twisted verbiage" leads you to this discernment- not any considerations that Moriarty was a seasoned New York cop putting his subject at ease, getting him to open up, and Frazier was (to be kind) not the sharpest pencil in the drawer when it came to middle school grammer?
Not very convincing, Brian. And you further allege that Lovelady must have been lying to Jarman, since Holmes' "step aside" occurred after his superintendent OK'd him. Yet Jarman's info- "so Oswald walked on down the stairs"- actually corroborates Holmes' info- "so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." Meaning that we have two sources telling us that Oswald left the building via the front stairs. He then, of course, went up the street to catch a bus. There is no conflict whatsoever with Helen Forrest/Roger Craig seeing a guy in a white t-shirt run down from the pergola area into a Rambler station wagon. He arrived at this pergola area via the West Annex.
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Lastly, I would like to say that I recognized that Adams & Styles went by the lunchroom while the men were inside as soon as I first read the Stroud document in 2010. We have film that places Baker circa the TSBD landing at circa 25 seconds after the head shots. All that is required is that he & Truly get through the lobby to the will-call counter before the office girls run across the rear of the warehouse.
The men did not encounter the office girls, not at the elevators nor on the 2nd-floor landing. Therefore the office girls ran by the lunchroom after the men went inside. The girls were quick; they likely made it down to the 1st floor 75 seconds after the head shots. But the men were quicker than has generally been credited them. They double-timed it through the warehouse, and Baker may have made it to the lunchroom door in as little as 55 seconds.
And I am not the first researcher to understand this. This was written about by Michael T. Griffith in the 1990s in his micro-analysis of the Baker-Oswald encounter.
And yes, the girls were only a couple of seconds away from seeing Truly. He had gone up "two or three" steps on the stairs to the 3rd floor, realized Baker wasn't following, and since he was more concerned about the policeman with him (rather than Adams & Styles, whom he may well have heard up ahead on the 3rd-floor landing), he returned to the 2nd-floor landing. The vestibule door had closed behind Baker after only 1.8 seconds. Truly opened it, leaned in, and saw Baker "standing at the doorway leading to the lunchroom" and stepped inside the vestibule.
Why would Adams & Styles be bothered to eavesdrop on anything they might have heard from within the lunchroom- and they probably didn't- when they were focused on getting outside to see what had happened?
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There are serious deficiencies in your reconstruction, Brian, and I don't see any merit in further elaborating. I have to work for a living and this is my last post on this matter.
Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Brian Doyle - 09-04-2023
In the last year I have come to realize the depth of the corruption in the Depository and investigation was much worse than I had realized before...The persons most responsible for my education on that are yourself, Armstrong, and Barry Ernest... It is possible the Rear Elevator was used as a means of escape, however Armstrong's 6th Floor Escape theory possesses the type of strange espionage techniques that you see elsewhere in the assassination - which, to me, loans it merit...Like the power being turned off in order to make sure the elevator cab was beneath the 5th Floor elevator equipment room...I managed to e-mail Carol Reed in 2018 and she responded...She told me that she remembered bolting immediately from her position in the motorcade spectators...She left in such haste that she remembered hurdling over people who had laid down in order to avoid any assassin's bullets...Carol Reed told me she went inside immediately and when she got to the Passenger Elevator in the Lobby it was dead and didn't work...She said she thought she remembered the operation lights for the elevator call buttons were unlit and out...This is serious evidence that I believe is the only contact ever with Carol Reed and the reaction from the so-called research community was total silence...They aren't interested...That's not very credible...You can see Carol Reed in all white next to Gloria Calvery on the steps in the Darnell film...Thomas Graves is obnoxious however he has skill in photo identification...In 2018 he and I developed this evidence but were limited to Duncan MacRae's troll site...I asked Carol if she remembered climbing the steps, and even sent her that image in an e-mail, but she didn't recall...It is interesting however that Carol Reed remembered the cop who Truly(?) remembered coming up to the 2nd Floor and giving orders...Carol told me that after she took the stairs up to the 2nd Floor offices a cop told her to hide under her desk and she did...She said she hid in fear for a long time under that desk as instructed...
In any case, if indeed the West Elevator was used as an escape route it is possible it only contained Lee...I mean no disrespect Richard and am a person who respects your research and ability, as you already know...This exchange forced me back to your book that I found in my salvaged belongings...That book is highly interesting on every page and very instructional - which makes it a tragedy that it doesn't get more recognition...It is possible that the other conspirators seen by Richard Carr left just before the assassination like Carr witnessed...I am forced to mention here that if Adams left early, according to my theory, that the timing lines up with her seeing the elevator cables moving in the process of the elevator being sent back up to the 5th Floor...Again, I can't reconcile Mrs Garner not seeing that elevator in motion from her perspective on the 4th Floor Landing where she said she was taking control of who arrived at that location...Not to mention the negro workers on the 5th Floor who saw Baker's helmet...How did they miss a hit team?...
I'll have to disagree with you on Mrs Reid somehow confusing Harvey's Reddish-Brown Long-Sleeved Shirt with a White T-Shirt...It doesn't make sense to me that she could make such a mistake with such radically different articles of clothing...It is like mistaking a Zebra for a Buffalo...Especially when Roger Craig saw an Oswald who was wearing a white shirt...The Commission did not accidentally fail to ask Campbell what his Oswald was wearing...They intentionally avoided it because it was a White T-Shirt...Campbell's Oswald went in to the Utility Closet to hide because he screwed-up and bungled in to the Lobby at the same time as Harvey...Go to the 1st Floor blueprint and you will see that the Utility Closet is located in perfect positioning with Lee stumbling in to the Lobby from the front stairs and seeing Harvey at the other end...It is a quick hook turn away from visibility and is located exactly where a person would duck-out and not be seen in that situation...It perfectly aligns with the behavioral forensics of my theory...
I'll bet money, Richard, that Frazier will pass a lie detector test on his witnessing of Harvey exiting the rear Loading Dock 5 to 10 minutes after the shots...Gary Mack's reaction (or lack thereof) is proof enough for me...There's a complete causal scenario that occurs before it that locks it in to plausibility...Harvey was stopped by the same cop who stopped Jarman...Shelley knew Harvey was in trouble so he OK-ed him with the cop telling him he was an employee...Shelley then helped Harvey out the Loading Dock to get him on his way with his continuing spook work...Buell recently made a statement "Oswald did not leave via the front door"...Buell said he himself drifted out to the corner of Elm and Houston where he could see the rear of the Depository...A seasoned researcher should see Lovelady lying about seeing Oswald leave via the front...Harvey could not have walked right out under the nose of a cop who had just ordered him to step aside and not leave...We know Lovelady is lying because 1) He never mentioned that witnessing to the Commission...2) The HSCA never went to Lovelady to ask him why he never told that to the Commission...3) Lovelady had a "heart attack" 16 months after Jarman's admission...
"So he told me to step aside for a little but and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out in to the crowd to see what it was all about." - Again, for your interpretation to be correct would require a cop, who had just ordered Oswald to not leave, to do nothing when Oswald defied his order right in front of him and walked right out under his nose anyway...A cop who then stopped Jarman and his coworkers from leaving too...It is pretty obvious here, Mr Gilbride, that Harvey is following the template we are already familiar with of him covering-up the deeper aspects of the conspiracy...He's lying and not blowing the cover of fellow CIA operative Bill Shelley and his helping him out of the Depository...Many of Oswald's interrogators said he was obviously trained in anti-interrogation tactics...I'm not sure how, exactly, one Oswald going up to the bus and one being witnessed getting in to the Station Wagon on the Knoll cannot constitute a "conflict"???...
It is possible that Couch/Darnell is as much as 30 seconds after the shots and Baker is still far from the crowded steps...There's plenty of leeway there in Baker having to get to the steps still, having to push through the crowd blocking the steps, going to the Lobby to look for the way up, and waiting for Truly to catch up...It is feasible that Baker did not exit the Lobby with Truly until 50 seconds...The girls bolted under adrenaline as soon as the limousine disappeared at 8 to 10 seconds after the head shot...They could easily have gotten to the 3rd Floor landing when Baker was seen in Darnell at 30 seconds after the shots...I ask you to look at your image on page 402 of your book...Gloria Calvery and Carol Reed covered a distance about 1 1/2 times further than Adams & Styles from their position in the motorcade spectators...They dashed to the front steps by about 20 seconds after the shots where they spoke to Lovelady & Shelley at the base of the steps...That took them maybe 18 seconds...Adams & Styles started about 10 seconds after the shots and only went about 2/3rd's the distance as Calvery & Reed...Your illustration shows how small the Depository was...Since they only went 2/3rd's the distance, I contend that it only took Adams & Styles 2/3rd's the time as Calvery & Reed - 12 seconds, to get to the stairs...If Adams & Styles were at the stairs at plus 22, and on the 3rd Floor 8 seconds later or less, then they are on the 3rd Floor when you see Baker in Darnell...Baker has a lot of obstructions, uncertainty, and slow-downs from there...The girls are flying downhill with gravity at that point free and clear and full of adrenaline...
As to Truly hearing Adams & Styles on the 3rd Floor landing above him we can pretty much count him out because the level of corruption we have already proven with him shows that even if he heard them pounding on the floor with their steps he would never bear witness to it...Truly is excluded from being a witness for this, however Adams & Styles are not and it seems to me they would have heard Truly starting up the creaky stairs just below...Mrs Garner heard the girls in a similar situation when she got to the 4th Floor landing...Why didn't the girls with Truly?...
Mr. BELIN. About how long after these shots do you think it took you to
go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again?
Mr. TRULY. Oh, we might have been gone between 5 and 10 minutes. It is
hard to say.
Mr. BELIN. What did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did
you see?
Mr. TRULY. When I got back to the first floor, at first I didn’t see anything
except officers running around, reporters in the place. There was a regular
madhouse.
Mr. BELIN. Had they sealed- off the building yet, do you know?
Mr. TRULY. I am sure they had.
Mr. BELIN. Then what?
Mr. TRULY. Then in a few minutes-it could have been moments or minutes
at a time like that I noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of
the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their
names and addresses, and so forth.
There were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like people’s names. I noticed that Lee Oswald was not among
these boys.
So I picked up the telephone and called Mr. Aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. Back up there.
First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell-I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him,
he looked around and said no.
Mr. BELIN. When you asked Bill Shelley if he had seen whom?
Mr. TRULY. Lee Oswald. I said, “Have you seen him around lately,” and
he said no.
So Mr. Campbell is standing there, and I said, “I have a boy over here missing.
You would think if Oswald got stopped trying to leave through the front door and Truly stepped-up to OK him that Truly might mention this to the Commission - right??? It is highly incriminating that there would be multiple witnesses to Oswald being stopped in the Lobby and cleared by the "superintendent" yet Truly himself would make no mention of it to the Warren Commission...
Truly gets caught lying when he's asked if the police had sealed-off the building and he replies "I'm sure they had"...That's not the answer you would expect from someone who had allegedly witnessed the Depository being firmly sealed-off when Oswald was stopped from leaving right in front of him...Linguistic Forensics would tell you that the words Truly used there are words that someone who wasn't there would use...They are definitely not the words that a "superintendent" who had allegedly seen a prime example of the building being sealed would use...
Ochus Campbell saw Oswald in the Utility Closet after Campbell returned from the Grassy Knoll...This has to be before Truly got back downstairs - so why does Campbell not mention seeing Oswald in the Utility Closet to Truly when Truly asks if he saw Oswald?...Someone is lying here...
Why does Jarman not see Truly in the Lobby?...He would have to if Truly cleared Oswald before Jarman got down there...Jarman said Lovelady told him of his witnessing Oswald being stopped when Jarman was sent back inside by the same cop...
What you are seeing here is exactly what you would see if Truly knew Shelley had OK-ed Harvey and helped him out the rear exit...There's a fatal conflict here between witnesses saying a "superintendent" cleared Oswald with the cop at the front door and Truly not mentioning it to the Commission...
If you are clever and know what to look for Belin is staying away from specifics in his interview of Truly...Belin doesn't ask where on the 1st Floor Truly arrived after descending from the upstairs...That isn't an accident...Belin is helping Truly not answer important cross-examination evidence...Truly knows what the game is which is why he blurs his arrival time to "5 or 10 minutes"...
By the time of Truly's Warren Commission interview it was well-known that Campbell had seen Oswald in the Utility Closet and the notes from the 3pm interrogation had made clear that Oswald allegedly exited with Shelley... It is highly incriminating for Belin to fail to pursue these glaring conflicts...Belin is helping walk Truly around the dangerous evidence...
Look at Truly's wording above..."First I mentioned to Mr. Campbell-I asked Bill Shelley if he had seen him"...Truly realizes that any pursuit of Campbell will lead to his seeing Oswald in the Utility Closet, which in turn will lead to questions of what happened in the Lobby...Pay careful attention to Belin's response to that where he suborns perjury and aids Truly...Shelley is a safe receptacle for the cover-up and worst corruption in the Depository because he's CIA...By the time of the Commission interviews Belin and the Commission were well aware of Campbell's and Shelley's alleged witnessing of Oswald in the Lobby yet Belin allows Truly to get away with pretending that both of them hadn't seen Oswald when he got back downstairs...
The answer to all this is Truly got back downstairs on the late end of his "5 to 10 minutes" and probably stayed in the back NW corner by the elevators and his office when he did and didn't go up to the Lobby until later...Truly is blurring all this on purpose because by this time he had been briefed on what to avoid and doesn't want to give any clues away to the fact he was still upstairs when Harvey and Jarman were stopped in the Lobby...The overall purpose of all this being the total cover-up and avoidance of what happened in the Lobby and Oswald's alleged route of exit...
If Truly was the superintendent who OK'ed Oswald in the Lobby, then he most certainly would have been there for Jarman too...Truly would have mentioned OK-ing Oswald in the Lobby in his Commission testimony and Belin would have asked him...All this business is all explained by the fact Shelley assisted Harvey out the Loading Dock after a cop detained him and told him not to leave and that was something that CIA Shelley could not explain so they buried it...Buell Frazier: "Oswald did not leave through the front door"...
Hope you continue to comment Richard because, right now, you and I seem to be the spear point and leading edge of assassination research with the most recent important discoveries, whether people want to admit it or not...
Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Brian Doyle - 17-04-2023
If we back-trace Richard's submission we should start at Mrs Reid's Oswald's shirt...Richard is saying that Mrs Reid was simply mistaken and mistook Oswald's Reddish-Brown Long-Sleeved Shirt for a White T-Shirt...As much as I respect Richard and appreciate his support, I have to say that it doesn't strike me as plausible that Mrs Reid could mistake two such pieces of clothing that were so different and describe such a heavy dark button-down shirt as being a White T-Shirt...We also have Roger Craig saying his Oswald was wearing a white shirt, and we have the Commission avoiding asking Ochus Campbell what his Oswald was wearing...Helen Forrest said "If it wasn't Oswald it was his identical twin"...
The Rear Elevator Escape theory strikes me as having serious problems...The main one being that the elevators were open and visible and if Adams could see them moving so could Truly & Baker...So could Mrs Garner...If Truly was leading Baker away from the escaping Hit Team using the Passenger Elevators, then he would indeed lead Baker to the Freight Elevators in the back...
I have real trouble with Harvey drawing Baker in to the Lunch Room...It doesn't make sense on many levels, especially when you consider that my discovery of Sarah Stanton witnessing Oswald waiting for Mrs Reid to clear the ladies out of the 2nd Floor Lunch Room puts new light on Mrs Reid and shows her to be an active Intelligence asset whose job it was to excite the ladies with reports of the motorcade's progress for the purpose of getting them all to get up and leave...I trust Richard and know him well enough that I can say to him directly that JFK research is suffering from too many egos tying up cooperation in solving the case with animosity over their pet theories...When I contacted Stanton's grand daughter she sent me Sarah's personal Depository photo album picture of Geraldine Reid...I sent it on to Groden and Groden told me that was the mystery woman he interviewed in the 1970's who saw Oswald getting change during the shots...As far as I know that is a major discovery that should rock the research world...However it was met with total silence as if it never happened all so certain people can carry out their personal grudges over good research...I'll tell you right now, credible researchers don't ignore a discovery like that...Especially so they can continue their personal fanhood of Bart Kamp or Greg Parker...The current research community is populated by persons looking to burn you with ignoring rather than recognize some of the most important evidence discoveries in 60 years...The Mrs Reid in Sarah's photo album appears to be slightly different than the Mrs Reid seen out on the sidewalk...The current research community looks silly going back to their room and sulking rather than discussing this exciting new evidence...All they are doing is giving Greg Parker his reward for his COINTELPRO-like disruption of good JFK research...Good work guys...That's a great message being sent that when an independent researcher scores big the main researchers and research sites will respond by grinding that researcher down with ignoring and erasing his very important discoveries all for personal spite...In any case, it seems unlikely that after going to such pains to hide Oswald in the 2nd Floor Lunch Room that Oswald would then lead a police witness to his being in there with his lunch on the table...It goes against everything we know about Harvey guarding the operation and staying in character...
It is possible that the reason Baker mentioned the 3rd Floor in his affidavit is because he ran in to Lee on that Floor and decided to shift the Lunch Room Encounter one floor up...My theory doesn't hinge on this so it doesn't need to be true...In any case, DiEugenio doesn't seem to realize that the simple reason Baker did not detail the Lunch Room Encounter in his 1st Day Affidavit is because he saw Oswald with a Coca Cola and his lunch on the table...It is 60 years on now and the present researchers haven't yet figured-out that Baker saw Oswald standing still in the Vestibule Door Window...When Baker confronted Oswald in the Lunch Room he had already realized that he caught Oswald getting up from his lunch and walking over to the Vestibule Door Window to watch the stairs...Baker knew this right away when he looked in to the Lunch Room and saw the evidence that Oswald was eating his lunch in there...This is further evidenced by the fact Baker said to the arriving Truly "This man work here?"...The reason Baker chose those specific words is because by the time Truly caught up with him Baker had already realized Oswald was an employee who was in that Break Room eating his lunch...Baker was answering his own question...By the time of Baker's affidavit at the Police Station that was something that could not be told...
Richard Carr is key to figuring this out...He saw Station Wagon Man in the suit jacket leaving before the assassination...That means part of the Hit Team was filtering out the back of the Depository before the assassination...Which in turn means the escaping conspirators may have only been Lee and one other man whom Armstrong said was seen arriving on the 1st Floor in the Passenger Elevator...
Recently Buell Frazier was quoted as saying "Oswald did not leave the Depository through the front door"...He's trying to tell us something there...As was Helen Forrest who made it clear that the Oswald she saw came from the rear of the Depository before he crossed the Knoll...Richard, I'm not seeing anything in what you wrote that recognizes there were distinct witnesses for one Oswald in Long-Sleeves leaving from the Loading Dock and going up to the Bus and one Oswald leaving across the Knoll and going to a Station Wagon...I also do not see anything in what you offered that addressed the fact that Oswald was told to step aside and not leave...It seems very unlikely that the cop who told him that would then allow him to defy that order and walk right out anyway...Especially if Jarman was stopped by that same cop shortly after...I submit that the reason Harvey went east to the bus and Lee went west to the Station Wagon is because they wanted to make sure they didn't cross paths again...It makes eminent sense to me and matches a causal scenario of circumstantial evidence...Lee stumbled in to the Lobby down the front stairs...Harvey was standing at the other end of the Lobby waiting for Shelley to ask him permission to leave and saw Lee bungle in to the Lobby...Harvey panicked and tried to exit through the front door...Lee swung a quick left hook turn and hid in the Utility Closet...A cop saw Harvey's anxiousness and it drew his attention towards him...Shelley saw the whole thing and bailed Harvey out as being an employee as his "superintendent"...Shelley then helps Harvey around the police cordon and out the Loading Dock...
I am just going to have to respectfully disagree with you on Adams & Styles Richard...I just can't reconcile Adams not hearing Truly on the stairs when she was right above him on the 3rd Floor Landing...If Mrs Garner could hear the girls on the stairs when she got to the 4th Floor staircase then Adams could too...Truly said he could hear Baker talking to Oswald...Well if he could so could Adams when she allegedly ran by...The girls high-tailed it and made it down the stairs very fast under adrenaline...Their commotion may have caused Oswald to get up from his lunch and go look out the Vestibule Window...This makes total sense if you are putting a causal scenario together that fits the evidence...The extra causal dimension means the action fits the evidence - which makes for stronger proof...
This evidence is incredibly important and could represent a final solving of the conspiracy in the Depository...I find it incredible that there is no discussion of it or mention amongst the main researchers...Especially my discovery of Sarah Stanton's witnessing...
RE: Advancing Armstrong - Putting The Puzzle Pieces Together In The Lobby - Richard Gilbride - 18-04-2023
That's quite a compliment, Brian, including me with John Armstrong and Barry Ernest in your appreciation of the Depository itself as a criminal enterprise. The real pioneer in this portion of the JFK conspiracy is William Weston, who wrote numerous essays in the 1990s in The Third Decade focusing on the TSBD Company as a critical part of the coup (411 Elm Street, The Transformation of the Texas School Book Depository, The Spider's Web, etc.). Not only was the move to Dealey Plaza that previous winter downright suspicious. But innocuous details such as Truly's refusal to allow Building employees to get fingerprinted- on the pretense that it would disrupt work- looks very sinister today. (I got fingerprinted for Census work in 2010; the FBI processed about 20 of us in about a half hour.) Weston got railroaded out of the Ed Forum about 2006 for claiming that Shelley, Lovelady and Frazier- The Three Calm Men seen by NBC's Robert MacNeill- were part of the conspiracy.
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Speculative reasoning is a healthy method to fish for answers that aren't readily apparent. Somewhat healthy, usually. With enough tries, one of them is bound to latch on, like a ring toss at a carnival booth. The tries that endure have the proper paradigm- something I learned reading through Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions in a used bookstore basement in Cambridge in the 1970s- meaning the best model to structure the remainder of the belief-system around. A model that can explain existing phenomena and maybe predict some unexpected new phenomena. Like how general relativity, with its model of curved space-time, explained the bending of light and also predicted gravitational waves. Or quantum mechanics, with its model of discrete atomic energy levels, explained phenomena such as spectroscopic lines and also predicted lasers and superconductors.
So with the Depository- and its nebulous data hinting at employee criminality- I presented a paradigm in 2009 whereby the 6th-floor hit team escaped via the west freight elevator, which was operated by Jack Dougherty. I have to credit Harrison Livingstone in 1993's High Treason 2 for spotlighting the fact that this elevator descended while Baker & Truly were ascending the stairwell. That was a big anomaly that stayed in my mind, and no researcher ever seemed to enlarge upon that idea. And it took me 10 years, when I finally read Jack Dougherty's testimony, to realize he was definitely the elevator operator. Yet it all remained quite nebulous.
The freight elevator escape paradigm, coordinated by Dougherty and Truly, explains these phenomena: 1) The west elevator descended while Truly & Baker ascended the stairs 2) Dougherty gave a nebulous accounting of his lunchtime whereabouts 3) He made contradictory claims about being part of the floor-laying crew. Initially he said he was, but then it made no sense that he returned to work (on the 6th) before the lunch break was completed 4) Dougherty claimed he went down to the 1st upon hearing a shot and talked to Eddie Piper, but this wasn't physically possible (FBI time trials established the speed of the elevator) until after Truly & Baker started up the stairs- and Piper wasn't even asked whether he talked to Dougherty 5) Truly cut off Dougherty's Secret Service interview 6) Truly's problem calling down the elevators wasn't mentioned until his testimony 4 months later 7) Truly led Baker up the stairs 8) The route they took to the roof didn't permit a view of the 6th floor 9) Truly's testimony excerpt at III p. 237 in his characterization of Dougherty remains deleted, and this Dictabelt remains inaccessible at the National Archives, and 10) The Warren Commission produced an internal memo, seen only by its members and staff, entitled, "The Mystery of the West Elevator". (This is excerpted in the section Dougherty on the Loose in my 2015 essay Inside Job on page 124 of my book). They weren't sure- after Truly's testimony- just who had taken the west elevator down. Why would they even bother asking about the west elevator unless there was a possibility something fishy was going on in its regard?
Add on a couple of notable anomalies about Dougherty's history: a) He spent 2 years stationed at Freeman Field in Indiana, the central repository for captured Nazi equipment, which filled 42 warehouses. Mind Kontrol ULTRA had its origins in wartime Germany. b) After WWII he said he did "Nothing" until 1952, when he commenced working at the Depository. Only his father Redfern Dougherty knows what he was doing, since Jack lived at home. Redfern sat in on his FBI interviews of November 22nd and December 18th, since his son had received a medical discharge from the Army. Someone unknown suspected Jack of complicity and in 1967 Redfern forwarded this material to the FBI (see my book, pp. 127-128). And we still don't know who took Dougherty from the Depository that afternoon down to DPD HQ; this was apparently squelched by the DPD.
All of this makes for a rock-solid paradigm for the west elevator escape- which penetrates much of the nebulosity surrounding the Depository, and explains the faulty police forensics; Fritz and Day knew about the elevator escape in advance, and made an error-riddled attempt to frame Oswald for the President's assassination. And this west elevator escape paradigm also makes an interesting prediction: it insinuates that Oswald, assigned to the lunchroom, was assigned the job within the assassination plot of helping to protect the descending west elevator from detection. Thus he baited the first responding cop and, by flinching away suspiciously from the vestibule window, drew him into the lunchroom. This was a maneuver that Oswald & Truly had to have prepared beforehand. Oswald could be counted on to pull this maneuver off, since he was an experienced spy and would be cool as a cucumber.
Oswald was perfect fodder for a patsy because, as a rogue intelligence agent, running off the rails of his training, not only would this "top secret" lunchroom mission increase his self-importance; he would be unlikely to spill the beans on fellow plotters (at least during that first weekend). He would, in any case, be quickly eliminated and the blame would be placed on him.
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Brian, you contend that "the power [was] turned off in order to make sure the elevator cab was beneath the 5th-floor elevator equipment", i.e. so that Armstrong's passenger elevator escape was feasible. But I devoted an entire section of Two Big Problems with the Passenger Elevator to this power-outage claim, in the section Power, Interrupted. Especially on p. 418 of my book, you can see that the 7th-floor storage room and 6th-floor west window had ceiling lights working. The 1st-floor elevator call button was working. And on a good-quality copy of HSCA VI, you can see vestiges of a ceiling lamp in the autoradiographic enhancement of Harold Norman's 5th-floor window.
So there was no power outage at the Depository. It is indeed curious that Carol Reed recalled the passenger elevator out, and its lights unlit, when she returned to the lobby... quite quickly, as film shows... But this is a 55-year-old memory... The passenger elevator definitely was working when Sawyer, Lovelady, and a couple Treasury agents used it about 12:37.... And it definitely wasn't working when Victoria Adams tried it at 12:40.... Without further corroboration, I would have to dismiss Carol Reed's memory simply as inaccurate due to the passage of time...
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What I am saying in the west elevator escape is that "Lee Oswald" who was in the west window- and one or more assassins at the east window (such as Herminio Diaz Garcia and a spotter) went down from the 5th to the 1st floor with Jack Dougherty.
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Adams heard the elevator cables move; she did not see them move. Sean Murphy's e-mail stated: "Sandra Styles told me in an e-mail that she recalled Vicki Adams telling co-workers that she had heard the sound of elevator cables when she and Sandra were running down the stairs." Bart Kamp was the one who made this error in his first lunchroom hoax essay, and I chided him for it in Death of the Lunchroom Hoax.
My interpretation of this is that Adams heard the cables just as she got to the 1st floor. She was then out of the noisy wooden stairwell, and the outer overhead roll-up gate to the 1st was lifted up- hence the shaft was open, with just the 4-foot wooden slatted inner half-gate in its down position. On the other floors that they traversed- 4, 3 and 2- the overhead roll-up gate would have been rolled all the way down (otherwise the elevators wouldn't function- a safety feature built into the 1905 design). So the 1st floor was the only floor they passed by with the shaft exposed, and with no wooden floor, makes it more probable in my eyes that this was where she heard the elevator cables moving.
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The black trio on the 5th heard the hit team but were intimidated into silence. Bonnie Ray Williams, whose lies were easiest to expose, was the one who said he saw Baker's white helmet. They all lied about going to the 5th-floor west corner window after the shots and opening it to see what was going on; photos show that window open before the shooting sequence. James Jarman denied hearing the west elevator move in his 1977 HSCA interview. Harold Norman said he could hear it but "didn't see who was on it." He looked absolutely afraid to say anything in his last interview. They were all out in the street ready to flee the scene before they were ordered back inside by police. It was strange how they never said anything about seeing Dougherty, who was 20 feet away from their 5th-floor book bin.
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Again, with Mrs. Reid's failure to correctly identify Harvey Oswald's reddish-brown shirt: She likely drew a blank, and couldn't remember what he wore. She knew he was a warehouse worker and so she said he had a t-shirt on.
I had a similar experience just this past Saturday. I went into the bank and told a teller how pretty she looked; she was dressed up nice for a spring day. What was she wearing? It's now Wednesday and I hardly have a clue, maybe a dark dress, possibly with a wraparound sweater. Maybe blue, purple, brown or black. Basically, a complete blank, 4 days later, and it was a vivid experience at the time.
So Mrs. Reid's failure is a bit much to hang your hat on, for whether the passenger elevator escape is true.
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In 2007 Sean Murphy and a Lancer photo-specialist, I believe named Jeff Daniels or Jeff Phillips, made a very precise reconstruction of exactly when Baker (nearly) reached the first step of the Depository landing. They arrived at a value of somewhere between 22.3 and 22.6 seconds after Z-313. They relied on matching Wiegman's film to Couch's film; "Wiegman began filming a little over 3 seconds prior to the President being hit in the head" (Pictures of the Pain, p. 373). At approximately 20 seconds into the Wiegman film Charles Hester can be seen ducking down in front of the pergola area; Hester's action can also be seen at the beginning of the Couch film, which captured Baker running toward the steps.
There's a lot of footwork on the Adams/Styles & Truly/Baker timelines that you just haven't done, Brian... I suggest you have a closer look at my book, pp. 98-101 and 131-135, and maybe read Michael T. Griffith's The Baker-Oswald Encounter.
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It was Shelley who stepped up to OK Oswald at the front door... Truly did not witness the incident, since had been upstairs on his way to search the roof with Baker.... You ask, "Why does Jarman not see Truly in the Lobby?"... The correct answer is because Truly was up on the roof with Baker... All Jarman did, in his HSCA interview 14 years after the fact, was confuse Shelley for Truly....
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You are really deep in the soup, Brian, making connections solely on your interpretation of "Linguistic Forensics", that are completely tenuous, and without substantive objective validity. You are too much in love with the idea that Frazier said Oswald left via the rear loading dock.... and you are willing to derange the evidence any which way you can in order to pretend that that is what happened.... even to the point of mixing Armstrong's passenger elevator escape- which is supported only by his own supposition- and tossing in Lee Oswald and the Utility Closet and thereby making a holy mess of how the lookalikes escaped the Depository....
What is clear to me is that: Lee Oswald went down the west freight elevator, and out the West Annex, and was seen running down the grassy incline into a waiting Rambler station wagon. Harvey Oswald- the historic Oswald- went from the 2nd-floor lunchroom down to the front landing, was stopped by a cop who had just arrived and was still getting his bearings, was OK'd by Shelley, so he proceeded down the front steps and up Elm Street to catch the 1213 Marsalis bus. And Welcome Barnett even admitted he let Oswald go at a 50th anniversary conference (see my book, p. 111).