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+--- Thread: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile (/thread-3232.html)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 15-03-2010
JACK HAS REPEATED THE CLAIM THAT JUDYTH ADDS NOTHING TO OUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE
CASE THAT SOME MAY EVEN BE TAKING IT SERIOUSLY. HERE ARE THREE COUNTEREXAMPLES:
While I do not agree with all of her opinions--the CIA, military, mafia, and anti-Castro Cubans,
for example, all appear to have been involved in the assassination with shooters--she has good
reasons for holding the views she expresses here, which arise from her role as a witness in NO.
I find all of this especially interesting since a friend, who is also interested in JFK research, has
come for a visit and brought along a three-hour DVD interview of James Files by Wim Dankbaar
and Jim Marrs which we watched last night. I find what Judyth has to say about Files very helpful.
(1) JUDYTH TALKS ABOUT OCHSNER:
Query: Why would Ochsner's friends fund Truth and Consequences, when Garrison was in the
process of investigating JFK assassination?
GARRISON WAS RUNNING ON FUMES BECAUSE NEWSPAPERS SAID HE WAS USING DISTRICT ATTORNEY
FUNDS FOR A PRIVATE QUEST FOR FAME...HE EVEN TOOK OUT HIS [PERSONAL] SAVINGS TO RUN THE
INVESTIGATION....TRUTH AND CONSEQUENCES OFFERED MONEY...AND SUDDENLY, GARRISON DROPS
THE ISSUE ABOUT THE BLACK CADILLAC (WHICH LEADS TO OCHSNER) AND DROPS ALL MENTION OF
OCHSNER...THOUGH "60 MINUTES" FOUND HIS EARLIEST DOCUMENTS WANTED OCHSNER ARRESTED.
Query: Why do you think that the whole conspiracy began in New Orleans? And why did it move to Dallas?
THE BOOK EXPLAINS DETAILS, BUT ROUGHLY, THE ANTI-CASTRO CAMPAIGNS WERE RUN OUT OF MIAMI
AND NEW ORLEANS. ALL THE ASSASSINATION TEAMS AND SEE EYE AYE WERE INVOLVED...WHEN THE
TURN TO KILL KENNEDY WAS DECIDED, THIS MACHINERY WAS RECRUITED...ALONG WITH MAFIA--CARLOS
MARCELLO, WHO BOBBY KENNEDY HAD FORCIBLY AND ACTUALLY ILLEGALLY DEPORTED AND WHO CAME
BACK WITH A BROKEN LEG...MARCELLO'S NEW DEPORTATION TRIAL CULMINATED THE SAME DAY JFK WAS
KILLED--THAT WAS RIGGED THAT WAY...THEY FOUND OUT THE JURY WAS RIGGED...ANYWAY, THEY
PARTIED AND RUBBED IT IN BOBBY'S FACE...MARCELLO SUPPLIED THE HIT MEN, ALONG WITH HELP FROM
GIANCANA, SICILIAN CHARACTERS (I'M TOLD) AND SANTO TRAFFICANTE'S MEN...MARCELLO RAN DALLAS
AS WELL AS NEW ORLEANS..
THE GOVERNMENT DIDN'T SHOOT JFK, THEY JUST PLANNED IT, WITH MILITARY SEE EYE AYE IN THE
FORE...YOU HAVE CHARLES CABELL FIRED BY JFK, MILITARY GENERAL AND SEE EYE AYE HONCHO OVER
BAY OF PIGS...HE IS DISGRACED WHEN FIRED...
HIS BROTHER IS MAYOR OF DALLAS
YOU HAVE JFK COMING TO NEW ORLEANS IN MAY 1962---HIS TRIP IS ARRANGED, PLANNED, AND
EXAMINED BY ALTON OCHSNER,OF AL PEOPLE, AS I HAVE PRESENTED TO YOU IN AN ATTACHED
DOCUMENT. HE GATHERS INFORMATION AND ADVISES HIS TEXAS FRIENDS. HIS BEST FRIENDS
ARE MURCHISON AND BYRD, THE OWNER OF THE TSBD WHERE OSWALD IS HIRED, AND OTHER
OIL MEN...OCHSNER MAKES TRIPS TO WASHINGTON ONCE A WEEK, AS WELL...
![[Image: 15z31o0.jpg]](http://i42.tinypic.com/15z31o0.jpg)
OCHSNER'S BEST FRIENDS ARE CLAY SHAW AND DOCTORS IN DALLAS, SUCH AS DEBLAKEY. THE
NETWORK IS SET UP WITH PERFECT FLOW OF INFORMATION AND HANDLING OF MINOR CHARACTERS.
THERE'S MUCH MORE. THIS IS THE TIP OF THE ICEBERG, SUCH AS GUY BANISTER AND GUN-RUNNING,
LINKED TO JACK RUBY, JACK RUBY LINKED TO BIOWEAPONS, BIOWEAPONS LINKED TO OCHSNER,
BIOWEAPONS LINKED TO NIXON.
LINDA MINOR HAS DONE A GREAT JOB OF MAKING THE LINKS. MANY OTHERS HAVE TOO, BUT THEY
DID NOT KNOW ABOUT OCHSNER, WHOSE ROLE WAS VITAL. READ THE BOOK....
![[Image: 10wjlfo.jpg]](http://i39.tinypic.com/10wjlfo.jpg)
(2) JUDYTH TALKES ABOUT DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS
LEE TOLD ME THAT DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS WAS THE ONE WHO MASTERMINDED MUCH OF THE
ASSASSINATION OF JOHN F. KENNEDY. HE TOLD ME THAT PHILLIPS AND OTHERS WOULD BE PRESENT
TO WATCH JFK GO DOWN. ADDITIONAL DETAILS ARE IN THE BOOK. PHILLIPS REPORTED THAT HE HAD
URINATED ON KENNEDY'S GRAVE.
WHEN I FOUND A WITNESS WHO KNEW SHAWN PHILLIPS, I KNEW THIS WAS DAVID ATLEE PHILLIPS'
NEPHEW. I OBTAINED INFORMATION BECAUSE I KNEW ENOUGH ABOUT PHILLIPS TO GET IT FROM
SHAWN'S FRIEND, AN ENGLISH INSTRUCTOR WHO BECAME QUITE ANGRY WITH ME FOR BRINGING THE
LEAD FORWARD, FOR I PASSED THE INFORMATION TO A GOOD RESEARCHER, GARY BUELL, WHO HUNTED
SHAWN PHILLIPS DOWN. THE RESULT WAS MORE INFORMATION OF USE IN THE CASE:
'Gary Buell was in discussion with Sean Phillips, David Phillips nephew. His old man
had suspected or had heard that old Davey boy had in some way been involved in the
assassination. Jim (Seans dad) and Dave apparently had a fall out about it. Phillips was
dying of lung cancer, he called up Jim, who asked "Were you in Dallas that day?" Dave
answers, "Yup," and Jim hung up the phone on him.
http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/phpBB3/view...2&start=165
Email from Shawn Phillips
The "Confession", you refer to was not in so many words as such. I cannot remember
the time frames involved, but this was what was told to me by my father, James Atlee
Phillips, who is deceased. He said that David had called him with reference to his
(Davids), invitation to a dinner, by a man who was purportedly writing a book on the CIA.
At this dinner, was also present a man who was identified only as the "Driver". David
told Jim that he knew the man was there to identify him as Raul Salcedo, whose name you
should be familiar with, if your research is accurate in this matter. David then told Jim
that he had written a letter to the various media, as a "Preemptive Strike" , against any
and all allegations about his involvement in the JFK assassination. Jim knew that David
was the head of the "Retired Intelligence Officers of the CIA", or some such
organization, and that he was extremely critical of JFK, and his policies. Jim knew at
that point, that David was in some way, seriously involved in this matter and he and David
argued rather vehemently, resulting in a silent hiatus between them that lasted almost
six years according to Jim. Finally, as David was dying of irreversible lung cancer, he called Jim
and there was apparently no reconciliation between them, as Jim asked David pointedly,
"Were you in Dallas on that day"? David said, "Yes", and Jim hung the phone up.
Shawn Phillips is a musician. This is his website: http://www.shawnphillips.com
His family tie to David Atlee Phillips is explained here:
http://www.shawnphillips.com/james.html
(3) JUDYTH TALKS ABOUT JAMES FILES
IT GETS SO TOUGH, BEING A WITNESS. YOU MAKE ENEMIES BECAUSE YOUR TESTIMONY DOESN'T FIT
THEIR THEORIES. WIM IS A FRIEND, BUT HE ACTUALLY YELLED AT ME AND GOT RED IN THE FACE
BECAUSE FILES HAD SAID SOME THINGS ABOUT LEE THAT WERE NOT TRIUE, TO WIT:
1) LEE COULD DRIVE--THIS IS CORRECT---BUT WHEN JIMMY SAID HE AND LEE STOPPED TO GET FOOD AT
A CONVENIENCE STORE INSTEAD OF AT A RESTAURANT, AND DESCRIBED GETTING JUNK FOOD, I KNEW
LEE ONLY ATE CINNAMON ROLLS AS 'JUNK FOOD' AND DID NOT DRINK OR SMOKE AND HAD TOLD ME ON
THE PHONE THAT HE HAD BEEN FASTING AND EVEN GOING WITHOUT WATER TO DISCIPLINE HIMSELF, BUT
NOT TO WORRY, HE HAD LOST WEIGHT BUT NOW WAS PUTTING IT ON WITH GOOD, HEALTHY FOOD, NO
JUNK FOOD.
THAT STUCK STUBBORNLY IN MY HEAD WHEN JIMMY SAID THEY STOPPED AND GOT JUNK FOOD. LEE
WOULD HAVE TAKEN JIMMY TO A DECENT RESTAURANT. LEE WAS CAREFUL WITH MONEY AND HE NEVER
ONCE TOOK US TO EAT FAST FOOD. COKES WERE THE LIMIT,
WE LOVED ICE CREAM
JIMMY SAID ONE THING CORRECT, SO I BELIEVE HE MET LEE OSWALD BUT IS NOT TELLING
EVERYTHING AS IT HAPPENED, OR HE HEARD IT FROM SOMEBODY WHO MET LEE. LEE HAD
A TINY SCAR NOBODY NOTICES ON HIS LIP. WIM ASKED ME HOW LEE GOT THE SCAR AND
I TOLD HIM, IN THE MARINES DURING BOOT CAMP, AND EXPLAINED THE INCIDENT.
NOW, FILES KNEW IT, TOO, AND I CANNOT EXPLAIN HOW HE DID.
IN SHORT, FILES KNOWS THINGS, YES, HE DOES. BUT THE JUNK FOOD INCIDENT TELLS ME
THAT SOME OF IT IS MADE UP. HIS VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS TEST SOWS THAT HE IS MOSTLY
TELLING THEIR TRUTH, HOWEVER, AND THAT THING IS SOLID AND GOOD--UNLIKE THE LIE
DETECTOR TESTS, WHICH "60 MINUTES" STUDIED AND THEN FORBADE ME TO EVER TAKE
BECAUSE I AM TOO EMOTIONAL. SUPPOSEDLY THOSE TESTS WORK BECAUSE YOU DO NOT
HAVE ANY EMOTON IF YOU ARE TELLING THE TRUTH. CAN YOU IMAGINE IF SOMEBODY SAID,
DID YOU SEE OSWALD DIE ON TV AND I FALL APART?
VOICE STRESS ANALYSIS TEST SHOWED LEE TOLD THE TRUTH THAT HE DID NOT SHOOT
ANYBODY. IT SHOULD BE OUT THERE AT THE TOP OF THE LIST IN VINDICATING LEE OSWALD,
THAT'S HOW GOOD VSA IS.
[quote name='Jack White' post='186779' date='Mar 14 2010, 06:17 AM']
[quote name='Pamela McElwain-Brown' post='186769' date='Mar 14 2010, 02:48 AM']
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='186753' date='Mar 13 2010, 06:20 PM']
But some, such as Judyth, are first and foremost WITNESSES, even though she has
proven to be very adept at RESEARCH. Her beliefs about Lee Oswald are based upon
her (presumptive) personal experience and there is no reason to dismiss her on the
grounds that YOU BELIEVE that there were "two Oswalds".[/quote]
Good point. In addition, since Judyth is a witness and Armstrong a researcher, it
might be valuable for Armstrong to actually acknowledge what Judyth is saying and
perhaps rethink and/or tweak his hypotheses at least about LHO in NOLA.
[/quote]
Armstrong is NOT a researcher. He builds custom homes in Hawaii.
Armstrong has NO hypotheses about LHO in NOLA.
Armstrong presents conflicting documentations.
Documentation cannot be "rethought".
Read the book.
As for me, I care not at all whether JVB's tales are 100 percent true or 100 percent
false. Whichever it is, nothing she says, whether true or false, adds one iota to our
knowledge of the JFK assassination. I believe everyone should be free to form
individual opinions about this instead of being ridiculed for being in one camp or the
other. My only interest is in truth. If her every statement could be shown to be true,
nobody yet has explained why it matters. Everything she says is more National Enquirer
material than important information. My main concern is that JVB is divisive and
disruptive. I suggest a moratorium till her book comes out, to see exactly what she
claims.
[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 15-03-2010
JUDYTH REPLIES ABOUT BLACKBURST (STEPHEN ROY):
1) Blackburst (Stephen Roy) as master know-it-all about Dave Ferrie---a
master operator is the proper term...with a huge, huge, huge discourse
that wears everybody out, re Oswald's loose tooth...Lee told me his version,
the Warren Commission has another...It is pages and pages long, and it is
next...We won that fight, but you can’t tell on the internet...And they erased
all our posts...Trust me, between 2004 and the big gap to 2008 that now
exists, there were thousands of posts made by kind supporters--all gone...
2) Dave Ferrie and his plane...Blackburst said it was unusable...So much to
say about this...Dave had access to Marcello's planes, which Blackkburst
ignores...
3) Blackburst will bring up that Ferrie drove all that way in nice weather,
not a rainstorm, night of Nov. 22, 1963....Long fight--I have the weather
records showing Blackburst only refers to New Orleans for rainfall--not
the entire gulf coast driven through that night--I got the weather records,
but let them carry on until stopped by the records...
Then they will bring up something else...Probably the ring...
4) The ring was a test that Blackburst devised, then changed after I got
the right answer. He waited two years--we believe he waited for the
witness to die--then changed his verdict....They have twisted around
everything, too...I was on a plane headed for New York for "60 Minutes"
with no access to computer when Blackburst demanded an immediate
answer to his question...He did not get his answer until I could get to a
computer the next day, and Backburst accused Platzman of giving me
the 'right' answer--a lie.
You see, everybody is lying except for them.
Dr. Platzman will tell you how mean and distorted they have made this
ring story. When they bring it up--They will simply declare it 'proves' I
knew nothing about Ferrie...They are lying and we were able to prove
it...Another mass of pages of defence needed...They are trying to wear
all of us out
5) After the ring, they will bring up the layout of Dave's apartment that I
drew in 2003 when Nigel Turner and I visited and I told him it was 'about'
the same. They remove the 'about’ and then point out a door or something
that got moved as 'evidence' that I did not know the layout in 1963.
![[Image: bc5mu.jpg]](http://i39.tinypic.com/bc5mu.jpg)
Let me tell you, that place inside could have been gutted and completely
changed around since 1963--but it was not and I declared that. Not good
enough for the lynch mob. I have the layout attached.
![[Image: 2i6gx05.jpg]](http://i50.tinypic.com/2i6gx05.jpg)
BTW, the house pictured here at 1032 Marengo is BEFORE a LONDON-based
doctor purchased it and completely gutted it and moved the door to the
center.
![[Image: 212x34n.jpg]](http://i43.tinypic.com/212x34n.jpg)
It then no longer resembles Lee Oswald's sketch in his address book. I have
attached a photo of the house before it was so very conveniently 'renovated'.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 16-03-2010
JUDYTH COMMENTS ON HER (NOT ENTIRELY POSITIVE) FORUM EXPERIENCES
Here Judyth reflects on the treatment she has received by certain participants on
these fora, where the objective often appears to be other than a search for truth.
Over a decade, these people brought up one subject after another to discredit me.
It began with asserting that I did not even work at Reily and had probably faked
the check stubs, as they had no name.
They tried to say the W-2 form was faked, but that very same year, I think, the
U.S. Goverment came up with company numbers for tax purposes. Those ID
numbers were brand-new and not available on the internet or in the archives.
In sort, it was discovered that the ID number of the company was correct.
So what did they do?
Anytime something proves to be correct, they drop it and go on to a new attack.
The next attack was that I was not Monaghan's secretary due to classified ads.
Long arguments later, they had to concede that I was his secretary, since I
produced Monaghan's private Reily stationery, which no clerk had access to,
since all they did was write bills and process labels, etc.
They dropped that and fixed on Cancun.
And so it went.
Meanwhile, they sent out their statements that I had flunked all their tests as an
ethical person.
The latest test is trying to discredit the very obvious fact that when I applied for
political asylum, an action I took to escape death threats in Hungary, I was not
immediately deported after they heard my case. No matter how many experts
they drag out, the fact is that I was accepted for consideration, and even got a
writ of inhibition, which is unusual.
That was to allow me time to find safe haven.
These things are spoken of face to face but do not get on paper or into official
records.
The thrust of this is to try to induce people to believe that I, at nearly age 67, have
decided (what, for attention? when I attempt to keep my locations unknown?) to be
dramatic by living overseas instead of in my own beloved country, with my children,
aging stepfather whom I love, and my grandchildren, so that I can persuade people
that I am a witness who knew Lee Harvey Oswald.
Does that make sense to anyone except somebody with some kind of perverted
thinking?
Why would my family make huge sacrifices to buy me a house in one country and
help pay for apartments and flights to other countries?
They know things that my internet detractors do not. They have witnessed what my
internet detractors have not.
My publishers know many details that they do not.
They do not want me to go to book signings, talk to reporters, or in any way risk my
life to publicize the book. Now, that's not the way publishers act when they want their
book to sell.
I ask you to look how Madeleine Brown was treated by these same people. How they
treat Jean Hill. How they treat Roger Craig, a person they also say has no credibility.
The dishonesty began openly when John McAdams claimed that Dr. Mary Sherman was
not a cancer researcher, just an orthopedic surgeon.
Then I realized that this man was not interested in the truth.
He was only interested in destruction of witnesses.
He and his crew have attacked me for ten years.
I ask the honest researchers to consider that:
1) I have lost almost all my worldly possessions.
2) I have lost the ability to lead a normal life without pain due to 'accidents' that hospitalized
me five times until I got the good sense to leave the country. (I returned twice, was employed,
and again received threats, harassments, and much more.)
3) Two of my children have disowned me. Another barely speaks to me and says she is ashamed
of me for having had an affair with JFK's 'killer.' She does not think that my husband's neglect and
abandoning me in New Orleans was sufficient cause to eventually have an affair with Oswald. She
wasn’t there, of course.
4) The only son who has helped me has suffered incredible losses, ever since doing so, beginning
with losing tenure at his university.
5) Though I worked as a social worker for twenty years and was known as a good person of good
repute, my character has been systematically assassinated. Employers would hire me, then receive
a phone call or email telling them to look me up on the internet -- and then I would be told they had
changed their mind...I cannot get employment.
6) I could not get a committee together to handle my dissertation. Only one person, plus a known
enemy who had blocked my being able to go to conferences and who had removed me from being
editor of a journal, who had looked into my past and disapproved, agreed to sit on the committee,
to defeat my dissertation, in my opinion. Nobody else would go on the committee.
I was told confidentially that I was 'too notorious' to be allowed to get my doctorate. I even changed
my dissertation to try to find 'new blood' but the new department chair would not even give me a time
extension, though I had handicapped status and was supposed to be allow time extensions. Thus, with
a 3.9 GPA and all orals, comps, classes finished, my second language (French) passed, I was told that
I was even forbidden to call myself 'an ABD' Ph.D.
This has been what I have gained from attempting to bring the truth about Lee to the American people.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 16-03-2010
PLACING JUDYTH'S EXPERIENCE IN PERSPECTIVE
I invited my psy ops expert to read the thread and
offer his observations about what has been taking
place on this forum. It appears to place Judyth's
experience in perspective in relation to TI patterns
of "Targeted Individuals" of intelligence operations.
Jim, I read all the posts. I do agree with what Monk says and I find his reasoning impeccable. Monk is a very intelligent man and has always expressed good judgement from what I know of his posts over the years. I also know where you are coming from and do not have the specific knowledge base about this matter to agree or disagree with you. But I can certainly respect your opinion and you could be correct.
To many, Judyth's story just isn't interesting from a raw evidenciary standpoint for the JFK assassination. It is no more than a human interest story to these folks and I can understand that. No doubt Jack White is a serious researcher and has made many astonishing and well founded research discoveries about the JFK Assassination and Nasa's faked moon landing videos. It seems to me that he has taken a perspective somewhat like Monk's, that most of Judyth's story is a personal interest story and is of little value to the JFK Assassination, although Jack appears to have concluded there are a number of contradictions in her story.
It seems to me that Jack has focused on some apparent contradictions between what others claim Judyth stated in the past and what she states now. And it seems to me that both Jack and Monk really think Judyth's story would not make any difference in a court of law if the JFK Assassination was ever brought to trial and the true perps were prosecuted for the murder and the coverup as accessories after the fact (by the way such accessory after the fact crimes are still being committed and by a fair number of intel ops in high places--don't belive me google the "black eagle trust" just for one of many, many long term intel ops--oops, maybe I shouldn't have spilled the beans on that--too bad--connect some dots if you want to).
It appears that Jack thinks Judyth's story contained certain things that have been shown to be a problem based on prior claims of hers. It is my understanding that Jack has a long history of being a very no nonsense, hardnosed, serious and very successful researcher who has little time for personal interest stories unless proven to be relevant and backed up by irrefutable 100% hard evidence, preferably photo or video. I don't have the background or knowledge of this matter to evaluate what detail of Judyth's personal story about her and Oswald is correct to every last detail or not, so I can't myself come to any judgments about the veracity of the details of Judyth's personal story. But I don't doubt that she is a long term TI for whatever reasons.
I can state without reservation that the way this matter has played out has all the fingerprints of a long term intel intercept op and a very sophisticated psyop. Where there is smoke there is fire, so what part of Judyth's history is intel working so hard to keep buried? And what part might they be working to embellish that would lead researchers away from what they want to stay hidden?
Usually this kind of op must be ordered and tracked by a single person at a very high level who was responsible for this operation right from the very start and maybe still is. In rare occasions a matter may be so important it is signed off or reassigned to another high level decision maker or small team once the original decision maker retires or dies. The initial decision maker would probably have to have been central to the JFK Assassination coverup and carry a great deal of absolute caesarian power and "with prejudice" authority. This key person or decision maker would perhaps have something personal to lose if this certain part of Judyth's story ever comes out and is exposed to international public scrutiny and thousands of researchers who have great resources and extensive investigative skills. One possibility is that perhaps a major investment this person or group was involved in and is still involved in would be directly jeapardized if that certain part of Judyth's story received too much attention. The key would be to find what this investment is in. If you doubt this occurs, try watching the following video on fluoride at the bottom of this post (this will give you an idea of how this works--skip through any boring parts): http://preventdisease.com/home/tips79.shtml
For example, what about the well-known little problem with the neuro-toxin aspartame (especially when heated in the sun) and how rummy got things well greased at the FDA for approval and got the negative studies buried.
And of course there are some real nobodies posting against Judyth who never made any major contributions to JFK Assassination research anytime in their lives and use the internet as a means to try to make their mark, to establish themselves as an authority (or perhaps to further an agenda being promoted by someone they are aligned with, whether they understand the game plan or not). These folks seem to always deliver an untruthful payload in everything they do, even though their initial approach may sound like "serious research". And it seems to be true to the following game plan, which is standard operating procedure, typical intel "sources and methods" trade-craft. This game plan is your typical "provoke and punish" strategy for discrediting and wearing out a witness. I'm not saying these folks vacationed at the dairy farm--Camp Peary--milking cows and working with pencil thrusts, lamps or "buses", but they seem to be following a game plan and are obsessed with covering up and obscuring facts of the JFK Assassination in other of their postings and so called "research" and seem to relish attacking Judyth's story.
It works like this: Go over the targeted individual's story with a fine tooth comb and then do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again ad nauseum, maybe as a team, until you find some contradictions (and there always will be some because TI's are human). Then using these apparent inconsistencies and contradictions, take some very hard specific shots at the TI's story at its most vulnerable points and do it in a passive aggressive but still insulting, discrediting manner which makes them feel attacked and demeaned as a person, while ignoring any suffering they have gone through while they have been a TI.
Then keep it up for years, and years, regurgitating and recycling the same old stuff, even if it was undone before once or twice until two three goals are attained:
Goal #1: Wear the TI out (individuals who are long term TI's typically are survivors and long ago made the commitment to survive and defend their story at all costs. (That's why they never gave up their story in the first place for for so many years, they are strong willed and cannot be cowered or shut up no matter what.)
Goal #2: Distract and shift the attention of the TI and others as far away from what secret you are attempting to keep covered up as possible in order to prevent a certain thread from being pulled, a thread which could unravel a current op which is an extension of a past op and is also very, very important.
GOAL #3: Keep this game plan going by creating "conflict points" and recycling these over and over until goals #1 & #2 are well attained and the TI is distracted from getting her story out (in this case completing her book which will probably sell fairly well since the author has some very interesting base facts already well established which set an interesting plausibility for her story).
I understand that Judyth has a very interesting story to tell about Oswald and her relationship with him which is important history, even if it is told from her own personal perspective based on her contacts and knowledge of him. I for one am not really interested in the personal aspects of it, but much more interested in the basic background facts of her medical research, and why and how she was selected for help with a very interesting medical research program. But I am going to buy her book as soon as ity is out because I want to support her efforts to survive as a TI.
Certainly it seems obvious that her very high IQ and her excellent HS academic achievements, along with an apparent very high aptitude for academic achievement made her interesting to certain parties many years ago back in the early 1960s, and there are always officials who are on the look out for the very gifted to bring into their pet programs. This is what interests me. I still believe that the real reason for Judyth being a long term TI is related to the cancer research she did and certain secret aspects of the medical research she was exposed to, but I may be incorrect on this or any other of my assertions. I just don't think so, however. I always root for the TI victims and I hope that Judyth attains real success with her book, which I believe she will.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 16-03-2010
JUDYTH REPLIES TO JACK WHITE REGARDING THE OUTRAGEOUS
JOHN WILLIAMS' DEALEY PLAZA ECHO ARTICLE DISTORTIONS
Dear Jack:
You stated,
Regarding the FALSE "CORRECTIONS" OF JVB in the previous posting, here
is the source, in THE DEALEY PLAZA ECHO, an article submitted to JVB for
her comments before publication. Obviously she has told so many variations
of her story she cannot remember which is the current version.
1) Jack, I simply didn't catch it where it says Lee introduced me to ALL
those people on the same day. . I didn't read it that way due to the way
it was formatted when it came to me over the Internet.
I saw it as if in a new paragraph and thought it was just the list of the people Dr.
Williams was showing that Lee introduced me to, beginning with Dave Ferrie--not
as all in one day. I miss some things due vision problems that others might catch.
Not a single written account on record before or since that I personally wrote ever
said such a thing.
The timeline I used to correct it has been published many times. You can quickly
verify the general timeline from THE LOVE AFFAIR, which is online at YouTube
(and at my website) that I was taken to see Guy Banister after attending a party
at David Ferrie's. The party was described as happening after meeting David Ferrie
in a restaurant. That was filmed early in 2003 and reflect my personal written records.
The rest of the corrections were FIXING YOUR ERRORS.
TO WIT:
2) I corrected 'evicted'; because you did not add 'due to a police raid' and that
cast aspersions on my character to some degree....as if had been evicted perhaps
for not paying rent, or whatever...Why didn't you take the time to type out the rest of
that line so people wuld not think badly of me, and realize it was a very tramatic event?
In fact, it made Lee Oswald a rescuer in my mind.
3) You also failed, for some reason, to mention the placement of the ad that connected
me to Lee Owald's firing. Why did you omit this information? It sows a unique link to
Oswald: they wanted to terminate me the same day he was terminated.
Quote: "July 19: The day Oswald was fired at Reily, an ad was ordered, which appeared
the following day in The Times-Picayune seeking to replace the secretary for Reily’s
Vice President, William Monaghan..."
4) Surprisingly to me, you distorted information by saying Oswald found me a 'room.'
There is a considerable difference between a room and an apartment. You reduced
the value of the information. Oswald did me a considerable favor, which was reduced
in value by your loose reportage of the facts:
Here is the actual quote:
May 4: By afternoon, Lee helped Judyth move into an apartment at 1032 Marengo,
within walking distance from an apartment he said he was going to take for himself
soon thereafter
5) You went on to show the date I was terminated, August 9th, without showing the
readers here the link to the fact that I was terminated for being seen with Oswald...
who was also arrested on Aug. 9th...
"August 9: Judyth was terminated by Reily Coffee, the day she is seen with Oswald
as he was passing out pro-Castro leaflets. [25]"
Why dId you leave that out?
Though Dr. Williams establishes statistical evaluations, in his capacity as a Ph.D. in
statistics, on this article, showing the probability that we knew each other at 99%,
you make it seem that our relationship ends with Reily. You ignore the matter of
Clinton and Jackson, etc., etc., etc.. A good researcher will not be prejudiced.
Your brand of reportage dropped important facts and skewed the truth ('room'
instead of 'apartment'--WHY, Jack? I am surprised that a man of your calibre
has done such a thing.).
I have admired your work for years and am distressed to see this apparently
consistent pattern of misreporting information--if it is about about me ---in a
timeline that is easily read by all elsewhere. I hope I have explained the single
error that I did not catch on my Hungarian keyboard computer, which makes a
lot of spacings that can make something look a bit different.
Worse, others can pick up your 'timeline' -- God forbid --and get the impression
that there are fewer links between Lee Oswald and myself in this matter than,
in fact, is the case.
That's called disinformation.
August 9: Judyth was terminated by Reily Coffee, the day she is seen with Oswald
as he was passing out pro-Castro leaflets. [25
Time Lines for Judyth and Lee in New Orleans, 1963
Judyth Vary Baker in New Orleans, 1963
April 20: Judyth arrives in New Orleans.
April 26: Judyth meets Oswald in front of the post office when Judyth went there to get a letter from her fiancé, Robert Baker.
April 27: Oswald introduced Judyth to (Dr.) David Ferrie, who was said to be a colleague of Dr. Mary Sherman, a noted cancer researcher. Oswald introduced Judyth to Guy Banister, who confirmed that Oswald was working on the anti-Castro project. Then Oswald took Judyth to meet Alton Ochsner, M.D., an internationally known physician working with cancer patients and cancer research. First Oswald went in by himself, and then he invited Judyth in and introduced her to Dr. Ochsner.
April 27-May 9: Both Judyth and Lee were instructed to read the advertisements for jobs in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, focusing on the jobs at 640 Magazine, with interviews with Mr. Alvin Prechter.
May 1: Robert Baker arrived; he wished to get married immediately, because he had to leave before midnight May 3rd to go to a summer job in the Gulf Coast area.
May 2: Because of a 2-day waiting period in Louisiana, Baker and Judyth eloped to Mobile, Alabama, where they were married. [23]
May 3: evening: Robert Baker left for his summer employment.
May 3-4 Midnight: Judyth was evicted from her rented room due to a police raid and found herself on the streets. [Times-Picayune articles for May 4-5 describe these raids]
May 4: By afternoon, Lee helped Judyth move into an apartment at 1032 Marengo, within walking distance from an apartment he said he was going to take for himself soon thereafter.
Prior to May 9: Judyth worked at a fast food restaurant, Royal Castle. She worked a total of 24 hours at Royal Castle. She states that her stipend for her summer internship did not start with Ochsner for another two weeks (she’d come 2 weeks early to New Orleans due to U of FL going onto the trimester schedule, unbeknownst to Ochsner). Therefore, she had to earn some money to pay for her rent at the YWCA, where she initially stayed.
May 9: Judyth and Lee were interviewed by A.T. Prechter at 640 Magazine; they were both hired and began working for Standard Coffee (a small Reily Coffee subsidiary) the next day. Oswald was interviewed first. Judyth waited at the A-1 Employment Agency until she was contacted by Oswald . The person whom Judyth spoke to wanted to know if Judyth got a job at the coffee company, trying to extract a payment for the referral, in case that Judyth got a job. (24)
May 10: Judyth’s first day at work. Judyth worked as the production floor secretary and credit research assistant for Mr. William Monaghan, Vice-President and Finance and Credit Manager of Reily’s Coffee.
May 17: Both Judyth and Lee were transferred to Reily Coffee. They were the only persons hired by Standard Coffee and the only persons transferred to Reily Coffee during that time frame.
July 19: The day Oswald was fired at Reily, an ad was ordered, which appeared the following day in The Times-Picayune, seeking to replace the secretary for Reily’s Vice President, William Monaghan. No one was hired until the ad was replaced later in the month by another ad with more attractive details.
August 9: Judyth was terminated by Reily Coffee, the day she is seen with Oswald as he was passing out pro-Castro leaflets. [25]
Around August 23-25: Shaw, Ferrie and Oswald go to Clinton and Jackson, LA. They wait in Clinton for hours and are observed by a number of witnesses there. Judyth: “They were waiting to join the convoy that was taking the prisoner/prisoners from Angola to Jackson’s mental hospital. There was an unexpected delay. Shaw used a leased vehicle – a black Cadillac---owned by Ochsner’s International House (where Shaw had worked with Ochsner for several years until 1962) and leased to The Trade Mart. I can explain in detail why the presence of all three men, and the orderly with them, was required at this time.”
After reaching the mental hospital as part of the convoy, apparently at least one person of Cuban descent is administered the cancerous material. Within 72 hours, Judyth was taken by Oswald in a different vehicle (an old car) to see the patient. Radical changes began quickly. The man was dead within weeks. [26]
September 1: Judyth left New Orleans, presumably to continue school. Instead, she merely does some artwork at the Craft Shop there until arrangements are made for her to work at Peninsular ChemResearch Laboratories near the university, where in overtime hours she creates materials useful in preserving live cancer cells in liquid nitrogen. She is hired at “PenChem” despite the fact that she has no degree, and has taken only one course, officially, in chemistry. Note: Judyth has been able to prove the existence of dual records for the time she spent at U of Fl: officially, she received only a “D” in a basic chemistry course. In actuality, she had progressed through organic chemistry and had studied biochemistry, which is why she was able to be hired at PenChem and was allowed to work overtime hours there. (Ref: college transcript, 2005, from U of FL records, shows existence of two concurrent AA degrees granted in 1965.)
Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans, 1963
April 24: Oswald arrived late at night by bus from Dallas; he had originally bought a ticket for Marina to accompany him, but Marina was invited to live with Ruth Paine in Irving while Oswald looked for a job in New Orleans. [27]
April 26: Oswald appeared at the unemployment claims office and was interviewed by John R. Rachal.
April 29: Oswald was interviewed at the unemployment claims office by Bob Hunley (an FBI confidential informant). [28]
Oswald moved in with his aunt and uncle, Dutz and Lillian Murret. [29]
April 30: Oswald telephoned Marina and told her he was staying with the Murret’s. [30]
May 5: Oswald visited the widow of his uncle William S. Oswald for 45 minutes. His cousin, William Oswald, son of William S. Oswald (whom LHO had never met) was then a route salesman for Reily Coffee. [31]
May 6: Oswald went to the A-1 Employment Agency, who referred him to Pelican Printing for a possible job as a photographer. He was not hired. [32]
May 7: Oswald reappeared at the unemployment claims office. He also filled out forms at the Commercial Employment Agency, who referred him to the Darrell DeMoss Company; Oswald never showed for an interview. [33]
May 6-7-8: Oswald and Judyth worked together to earn incidental money at Reverend James’ Souvenir Shop on Rampart St. (Judyth took a team of researchers to the site of this shop in Jan. 2000).
May 9: Oswald was interviewed and hired for a job at Reily Coffee. He also found an apartment at 4905 Magazine. [34]
May 10: Oswald began work at Standard Coffee, a small subsidiary of Reily Coffee.
May 11: Marina and her daughter were driven to New Orleans by Ruth Paine, arriving at the Murret’s at 3:00 PM. The group then went to Oswald’s apartment. Ruth Paine stayed for three days with them at the apartment. [35]
May 14: Ruth Paine left for Dallas. In Paine’s and Marina’s correspondence, Marina noted that Lee’s love for her seemed to have disappeared after Mrs. Paine left. [36]
May 15: Oswald went to the A-1 Employment Agency for Judyth, trying to get them to not charge Judyth for the referral. Lee talked them into accepting half of her first week’s pay ($17), instead of the customary full week’s pay for the referral. Oswald paid the $17 himself. As this was Judyth’s birthday, she considered this payment by Lee as a birthday gift. (37)
May 26: Oswald wrote the Fair Play for Cuba Committee (FPCC) to obtain membership, a FPCC charter, and a photograph of Fidel Castro. Oswald stated his intentions were to form a FPCC branch in New Orleans. [38] He mentioned planning to rent an office for these activities, and that the cost would be $30 a month.
May 27: Oswald asked Judyth to buy an American Express money order for him to provide a record of having rented an office for FPCC activities, as he has no bank account and wanted evidence of the transaction. Judyth provided Oswald with a $30 American Express money order (it is dated May 27) from money she and Oswald had earned at Reverend James’ Souvenir Shop prior to being hired at Reily’s (Oswald mentioned trying to get a job at a souvenir shop doing “lettering” to his aunt Lillian (Ref; her W.C. testimony).
May 28: Oswald repaid Judyth $30 in cash. Judyth deposited $30 into her bank account, which was recorded on her next bank statement. Judyth still has the American Express money order in her files.
May 29:The FPCC sent Oswald a membership card, but discouraged him from starting a chapter in New Orleans, because “...Louisiana seems somewhat restricted for Fair Play activities.” This did not dissuade Oswald from his FPCC activities in New Orleans. [39]
June 4: Marina wrote the Russian Embassy in Washington, DC that she was homesick, had family problems, and wished to bring her daughter and have her baby in the Soviet Union. [40]
June 15-16: Someone, likely Oswald, passed out FPCC leaflets to naval personnel from the USS Wasp, just docked in New Orleans; earlier in June, someone, probably Oswald, passed out leaflets at the Tulane University campus. [41]
June 24: Oswald applied for a new passport in New Orleans. He received the passport the next day. [42] Note from Judyth: “A former Customs Agent was brought in from Miami, Florida to help expedite Lee Oswald’s passport. Other passports were also processed in the same short time period to protect Lee’s passport from close inspection. I met this former Customs Agent on June 25 on the steps of the Custom House in New Orleans, and have described him to his living family members as having a German accent, silvery hair, and tattoos on his fingers. The man was Charles Thomas, AKA Arthur Young. Both names were familiar to the members of his family who were still alive. I recognized his face and saw the tattoos on his fingers on photos provided to me by his family. They also had photos of Cubans who were friends of his, in their possession.”
July 19: Oswald’s last day of employment at Reily’s Coffee; he immediately applied for unemployment compensation. [43]
July 23- until Oswald left New Orleans; he would leave his apartment each day around 1:00 and return around 5:00, according to the report of Gladys Rogers, who lived in the apartment adjoining the Oswald’s. [44] Note from Judyth: “The Rogers’ testimonies need to be closely inspected. They reveal that Mr. and Mrs. Rogers were placed at 4907 Magazine St.—the address Oswald claimed was his—and took his mail for him. Oswald and his family actually lived in 4905, but Oswald paid for the Rogers’ rent and utilities at 4907. Marina and Ruth Paine both write letters to each other using the 4907 address even though Mrs. Paine spent three days living at 4905, and Marina knows how to read Roman numerals. Mr. Rogers did not get a job until after Oswald left New Orleans. Lee told me that they were there to protect Marina, who was pregnant, from possible harassment by anti-Castroites, since Lee advertised his address as 4907 Magazine to the public.”
July 26: Oswald cashed his last Reily Coffee paycheck at a Winn-Dixie store at 4303 Magazine. The same day, someone visited the Atomic Energy Museum in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, giving their name and address as: Lee H. Oswald, USSR, Dallas Road, Dallas, Texas. [45]
July 27: The Murret’s picked up the Oswald’s and drove to Mobile, Alabama, where Oswald gave a talk on contemporary life in Russia at Spring Hill College; his cousin Eugene Murret was a student at the college and instrumental to Oswald’s invitation to speak there. [46]
Note from Judyth: “A contact, who was a priest well known to the Kennedy family, attended this important meeting, during which information important to Ochsner and the Samoza family was passed to Jesuit priests there, and information regarding Marxist-Leninist policies was discussed, along with Castro’s influence and increasing presence in Central and South America. Bobby Kennedy was personally advised of some of this information, and Lee couriered some information to this meeting.”
August 5: Oswald visited the Casa Roca Clothing Company and spoke with the owner, Carlos Bringuier, about his (Oswald’s) guerilla warfare expertise and his anti-Castro views. [47]
August 9: Oswald was handing out FPCC leaflets on the 700 block of Canal Street. Oswald got into a scuffle with three Cubans, including Bringuier. All four were arrested. Oswald spent the night in jail. [48]
EITHER THE DEALEY PLAZA ECHO PUBLISHED JOHN'S FIRST DRAFT INSTEAD OF THE DRAFT I APPROVED--EVEN THOUGH JOHN SENT ME ACOPY IN PRINTED FORM--OR MCADAMS DID NOT CHECK TO SEE IF HE HAD AN AUTHENTIC COPY. OR, DID HE GET AN EDITED JOB FROM SOMEBODY? HEAVEN FORBID THAT HE EDITED IT HIMSELF.
THE TRUE COPY IS ATTACHED AND DR. JOHN WLLIAMS IS CC'D TO ASSURE YOU THAT IT IS THE TRUE COPY.
[quote name='Jack White' post='186938' date='Mar 15 2010, 05:18 PM']Regarding the FALSE "CORRECTIONS" OF JVB in the previous posting, here
is the source, in THE DEALEY PLAZA ECHO, an article submitted to JVB for
her comments before publication. Obviously she has told so many variations
of her story she cannot remember which is the current version.
...........
EXCERPTED FROM DEALEY PLAZA ECHO
Judyth and Lee in New Orleans
John Delane Williams and Kelly Thomas Cousins
With Comments by Judyth Vary Baker
Time Lines for Judyth and Lee in New Orleans, 1963
Judyth Vary Baker in New Orleans, 1963
April 20: Judyth arrives in New Orleans.
April 26: Judyth meets Oswald in front of the post office when Judyth went there to get a
letter from her fiancé, Robert Baker.
April 27: Oswald introduced Judyth to (Dr.) David Ferrie, who was said to be a colleague
of Dr. Mary Sherman, a noted cancer researcher. Oswald introduced Judyth to Guy
Banister, who confirmed that Oswald was working on the anti-Castro project. Then
Oswald took Judyth to meet Alton Ochsner, M.D., an internationally known physician
working with cancer patients and cancer research. First Oswald went in by himself, and
then he invited Judyth in and introduced her to Dr. Ochsner.
April 27-May 9: Both Judyth and Lee were instructed to read the advertisements for jobs
in the New Orleans Times-Picayune, focusing on the jobs at 640 Magazine, with
interviews with Mr. Alvin Prechter.
May 1: Robert Baker arrived; he wished to get married immediately, because he had to
leave before midnight May 3rd to go to a summer job in the Gulf Coast area.
May 2: Because of a 2-day waiting period in Louisiana, Baker and Judyth eloped to
Mobile, Alabama, where they were married. [28]
May 3: evening: Robert Baker left for his summer employment.
May 3-4 Midnight: Judyth was evicted from her rented room due to a police raid and
found herself on the streets. [Times-Picayune articles for May 4-5 describe these raids]
May 4: By afternoon, Lee helped Judyth move into an apartment at 1032 Marengo,
within walking distance from an apartment he said he was going to take for himself soon
thereafter.
Prior to May 9: Judyth worked at a fast food restaurant, Royal Castle. She worked a total
of 24 hours at Royal Castle. She states that her stipend for her summer internship did not
start with Ochsner for another two weeks (she’d come 2 weeks early to New Orleans due
to the University of Florida being on the trimester schedule, unbeknownst to Ochsner).
Therefore, she had to earn some money to pay for her rent at the YWCA, where she
initially stayed.
May 9: Judyth and Lee were interviewed by A.T. Prechter at 640 Magazine; they were
both hired and began working for Standard Coffee (a small Reily Coffee subsidiary) the
next day. Oswald was interviewed first. Judyth waited at the A-1 Employment Agency
until she was contacted by Oswald. The person whom Judyth spoke to wanted to know if
Judyth got a job at the coffee company, trying to extract a payment for the referral, in
case that Judyth got a job. (29)
May 10: Judyth’s first day at work. Judyth worked as the production floor secretary and
credit research assistant for Mr. William Monaghan, Vice-President and Finance and
Credit Manager of Reily’s Coffee.
May 17: Both Judyth and Lee were transferred to Reily Coffee. They were the only
persons hired by Standard Coffee and the only persons transferred to Reily Coffee during
that time frame.
July 19: The day Oswald was fired at Reily, an ad was ordered, which appeared the
following day in The Times-Picayune, seeking to replace the secretary for Reily’s Vice
President, William Monaghan. No one was hired until the ad was replaced later in the
month by another ad with more attractive details.
August 9: Judyth was terminated by Reily Coffee, the day she was seen with Oswald as
he was passing out pro-Castro leaflets. [30]
end of excerpt.[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 16-03-2010
JUDYTH REPLIES TO JACK ABOUT A SIMPLE MISTAKE
NOTE: What is or is not "new information" to someone is a
function of the information already present in their minds. I
find it difficult to reconcile Jack's insistance that HE IS NOT
LEARNING ANYTHING NEW with the conclusion that THERE-
FORE NO ONE IS LEARNING ANYTHING NEW. I have been
offering examples about Ochsner, Phillips, and Files that I,
for example, have been finding to be "new information".
So I think Jack has been employing the wrong standard.
Jack writes:
To the contrary, it is difficult to pin down just what she does claim.
In 2007 an article for which she initiated the information for . . .
== I told Dr. Williams it would make an interesting statistical study.
He agreed, after reviewing everything. He worked hard gathering a
great deal of information. the article itself is quite long and involved.
It may have another flaw somewhere. I didn't catch the confluence
of several people being met in one day. NOTE THAT THIS IS NOT
IN THE LOVE AFFAIR, IT IS NOT IN ANY INFORMATION GIVEN TO
OTHERS. IT IS A SIMPLE ERROR.
and read in advance
===by computer! And it did not prnt out like it does on paper. The
layout of the next sentence fooled me. The rest of the article still
looks ok to me, with dozens and dozens of additional statements.====
says that the second day she had known LHO, he took her to meet Dr.
Ochsner; that she waited in the outer office while Lee went in, and that
he came out and took her in and introduced her to the doctor.
Now, in 2010, she says that is wrong...that he was in South America at
that time.
MR. WHITE IS IN ERROR. IN THE SAME ARTICLE THAT HE REFERS TO,
BUT APPARENTLY DID NOT READ CAREFULLY, IT SAYS THE FOLLOWING
ON PAGE 3:
"When I came to New Orleans two weeks early, both Ochsner and Sherman
were out of town, and I found myself temporarily stranded. My fiancé had
offered to come to New Orleans to marry me if he could convince his parents
to allow him to work away from their real estate office. "
SHORTLY AFTER DR. WILLIAMS PUBLISHED HIS ARTICLE, WE FOUND PROOF
THAT DR. OCHSNER WAS IN SOUTH AMERICA. I ONLY COULD PROVE THAT
HE WAS OUT OF TOWN BEFORE WE FOUND THE TIMES-PICAYUNE ARTICLE
MENTIONING HE WAS IN SOUTH AMERICA.
WHY DID JACK WHITE SAY I HAVE CHANGED MY STORY, WHEN I DID NOT?
I have acknowledged one error in the article, but have shown that both
before and after its publication I have shown that this was an error.
I made an error in reading this article. And Jack just made one by saYing
I did not menton that Ochsner was out of town in tis article. But I did.
You see how easly an error in reading can be made, Jack?
Why are you after my flesh and bones?
JVB
[quote name='Jack White' post='186998' date='Mar 16 2010, 01:22 AM']
Jim...You have your opinions and I have mine about what constitutes "new evidence" in the JFK case.
I have not read her "book", but have read enough "excerpts" to have an idea what she claims. In
all of that, I HAVE NOT ENCOUNTERED ANY NEW INFORMATION WHICH ADDS TO MY UNDERSTANDING
of what happened in Dallas. To ME, what she says either is not relevant, not new, not important, or not
believable...so I find nothing of value to any of it. It does nothing to change our understanding of
what happened in DP or Bethesda. The autopsy is still faked, the brain is still substituted, the
Zapruder film still faked. The backyard photos were faked to frame LHO, etc., etc. etc. Nothing she
says CHANGES ANY OF THE "SETTLED" FACTS.
You and others who choose to think the opposite are entitled to your beliefs. But that does not mean
that others must change their evaluations. I have seen nothing that makes me sit up and take notice.
To the contrary, it is difficult to pin down just what she does claim. In 2007 an article for which she
initiated the information for and read in advance says that the second day she had known LHO, he
took her to meet Dr. Ochsner; that she waited in the outer office while Lee went in, and that he came
out and took her in and introduced her to the doctor. Now, in 2010, she says that is wrong...that
he was in South America at that time. Previously I had read that she had been invited to come to
New Orleans to be an intern under Dr. Ochsner. Now if you can sort this out and make sense of it,
you are better than I am at interpreting conflicting statements. I find this (and many other things)
too confusing to sort out or bother with. And so what? Was Ochsner behind the assassination? Or
if he had ANY involvement, was it important? I do not get that impression from ANYTHING JVB has
said. Even if EVERYTHING she says is true, it does not enhance the things we already knew.
I agree with you that "I AM HAVING A HARD TIME KEEPING ALL OF THIS STRAIGHT". It is difficult
to hit a moving target.
Warm regards.
Jack
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='186979' date='Mar 15 2010, 08:20 PM']
OK, Jack. I am going to ask Judyth about it. I don't know about
you, but I would have a hard time keeping all this straight. Let me
ask you a question. Do you acknowledge, given what I have posed
above, that what Judyth has to tell us--assuming she is "the real deal",
which you dispute--DOES ADD TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF THE CASE
IN VARIOUS REPECTS, such as regarding Ochsner, Phillips, and Files?
[quote name='Jack White' post='186977' date='Mar 15 2010, 10:04 PM']
Here is the Williams 2007 DP ECHO article. I am using the
McAdams reprinting of it, since it is much easier to read
as a PDF file rather than the small type in the ECHO
article:
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ngarchive/Judya...nNewOrleans.pdf
Much of it differs from what JVB says in 2010.[/quote]
[/quote]
[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 16-03-2010
THE ONLY CONFLICT LIES IN YOUR PREJUDICE, JACK!
NOTE: I think that Judyth makes excellent points, Jack.
I am sorry to have to say I agree with her completely!
Dear Jack:
We have established the following:
1) I made a reading error that resulted in Banister and Ochsner being mentioned
on the wrong date. I supplied evidence that my correction matched what is easly
available online and that I had misinterpreted what was there as a list, which was
unconnected to the date a few lines aove it.
2) I pointed out that YOU misread the article yourself when you stated that I did
not mention Ochsner being out of town (South America). It seems you, too, are
capable of misreading the long article. I have shown you that Ochsner was out
of town and that it was in the article.
3) I pointed out that, for some reason, you have changed actual words, such as
'apartment' to 'room', and otherwise degraded information that is relevant to
establishing connectons between me and Oswald
4) You further left out connectors between Oswald and myself, such as mentioning
that, when I was forced to resign--yes, it was actually getting fired, but I signed a
resignation--it had occurred because I was seen with Oswald not long before he
was arrested for opassing out pamphlets--you simply didn't mention this connector.
By failing to do so, you exhibited a remarkable amount of prejudice in reporting my
position as a witness. I have been stunned, actually, by these seemingly deliberate
distortions of the record.
Now you compound everything with insults, such as beow:
Now, in 2010, she says that is wrong...that he was in South America at that time.
==We have alrerady addressed this, Jack--It says in the same article you supposedly
read that Oschner was out of town for two weeks when I arrived in New orleans.
Obviously, then, I could not have met him on April 27, since I arrived in New Orleans
on April 20. But let us move on to your insults and leave your errors behind:
Previously I had read that she had been invited to come to New Orleans to be an intern
under Dr. Ochsner. Now if you can sort this out and make sense of it, you are better
than I am at interpreting conflicting statements. I find this (and many other things)
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO CONFLICT. WHAT I FIND DISTURBING IS THAT YOU PASS
JUDGMENT ON ME APPARENTLY WITHOUT EVER SEEING THE DOCUMENTARY BY NIGEL
TURNER. IT IS CLEAR THERE--AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN CLEAR--THAT I WAS OFFERED
AN INTERNSHIP WITH DR. MARY SHERMAN BY OCHSNER AND THAT MY UNIVERSITY
WENT ON THE TRIMESTER SCHEDULE THAT YEAR.
WE GOT OUT TWO WEEKS EARLIER THAT OTHER SCHOOLS, BUT OCHSNER LEFT THE
COUNTRY, THINKING I WOULD ARRIVE TWO WEEKS LATER THAN I DID. SHERMAN
WAS WITH HIM PART OF THAT TME.
I FOUND MYSELF WTHOUT FUNDS. WATCH THE DOCMENTARY OR READ THE BOOK,
BUT PLEASE DO NOT PASS JUDGMENT ON ME WITHOUT HAVING EVEN READ THIS
ONE ARTICLE BY DR. JOHN WLLIAMS WITH CARE.
I AM SHOCKED AND SURPRISED AT THE CARELESSNESS INVOLVED HERE.
I CANNOT EVEN FEEL ANGER, JUST SHOCK.
YOU DO NOT CARE NOT WHETHER YOU DESTROY A WITNESS WHOSE TESTIMONY
YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY NEVER INSPECTED. YOU HAVE RELIED ON HEARSAY.
IT GRIEVES ME TO SAY THESE WORDS. YOU HAVE DONE SO MUCH FOR THE
RESEARCH COMMUNITY.
too confusing to sort out or bother with. And so what?
THESE WORDS IMPLY IGNORANCE OF WHAT I KNOW AND WISH TO CONVEY
TO THE FORUM HERE--IF I EVER GET THE OPPORTUNITY TO SPEAK OF THOSE
THINGS INSTEAD OF HAVING TO DEFEND MY INTEGRITY AND VERY SANITY ON
THIS FORUM AGAINST SPECIOUS ATTACKS.
I AM WELL AWARE THAT I AM HUMAN AND CAN MAKE AN OCCASIONAL ERROR.
BUT YOUR STATEMENTS BRUSH ME OFF AS A WORTHLESS PERSON NOT EVEN
DESERVING OF A HEARING. AND YOU DID NOT GIVE ME A FAIR ONE, EITHER.
Was Ochsner behind the assassination? Or if he had ANY involvement, was it
important?
AT LAST, A QUESTON OF VALUE.
I do not get that impression from ANYTHING JVB has said. Even if EVERYTHING
she says is true, it does not enhance the things we already knew.
HOW CAN YOU BE IN A POSITON TO JUDGE THE IMPORTANCE OF WHAT I HAVE
TO SAY, MR. WHITE, SINCE YOU HAVE NEVER MET ME, NEVER INTERVIEWED ME,
NEVER EVEN SEEN THE DOCUMENTARY, WHICH IS BASIC TO COMPREHENDING
MY TESTIMONY.
MUCH INFORMATION I HAVE DID NOT MEAN MUCH TO ME AT THE TIME. BUT BEING
THREATENED, REVILED AND ATTACKED CHANGES ONE'S PERSPECTIVE, AND I HAVE
DILIGENTLY SOUGHT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT I KNOW.
I HOPE ATTACKS WILL STOP AND I WLL BE ALLOWED TO PRESENT MY INFORMATION.
YOU HAVE SPENT PAGES AND PAGES ATTACKING ME, WHILE REVEALING THAT YOU
HAVE ACCEPTED THE JUDGMENTS OF OTHERS WITHOUT RELYING ON YOUR OWN
HIGH INTELLIGENCE AND GOOD SENSE. SOME PEOPLE YOU TRUSTED HAVE QUITE
NEGATIVELY INFLUENCED YOU, JACK,
I AM VERY SORRY TO HAVE TO WRITE THESE THINGS TO A MAN WHOM I HAVE LONG
RESPECTED, DESPITE HIS UNENDING HOSTILE ATTITUDE TOWARD ME FOR OVER FIVE
YEARS.
IT SEEMS THAT "I AM HATED WITHOUT CAUSE" BY YOU.
JVB
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 16-03-2010
What is emerging is that when an error occurs, IT IS ALWAYS THE FAULT OF SOMEONE ELSE.
JVB would have us believe that John Delane Williams made up his article as fiction that he
created without any basis. With no previous input using information provided by JVB, Williams
decided on his own, that on the second day of knowing Lee, that Lee took her to the office of
Doctor Ochsner, and that while she waited outside, Lee went in to see the doctor, came back
out, and then took JVB into the doctor's office and introduced the two of them. Why would
Williams make this up? Where did he get the date? How did he know that Lee went in first
and then later introduced the doctor to JVB? This is extraordinary detail for someone to
make up and not expect the fiction to be noticed. Or did he not know that Ochsner was in
South America, and decided to just make something up to add interest to the story? Why?
Did Williams have ANY basis for writing his article?
I am disappointed that I am the only one who feels that Williams wrote information that
had previously been presented to him in some form from the JVB story. I am disappointed
that I am castigated for making an observation that is so obvious that anyone should see
through the sham.
Jack
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - David Healy - 16-03-2010
[quote=James H. Fetzer]THE ONLY CONFLICT LIES IN YOUR PREJUDICE, JACK!
NOTE: I think that Judyth makes excellent points, Jack.
I am sorry to have to say I agree with her completely!
...
Quote:I AM WELL AWARE THAT I AM HUMAN AND CAN MAKE AN OCCASIONAL ERROR.
BUT YOUR STATEMENTS BRUSH ME OFF AS A WORTHLESS PERSON NOT EVEN
DESERVING OF A HEARING. AND YOU DID NOT GIVE ME A FAIR ONE, EITHER.
...
Dr. Jim,
Perhaps Judyth Baker can explain to me/us WHY her 'alleged' relationship with LHO is relevant in the conspiracy to murder JFK? Do you Judyth feel you can clear LHO's name? And, what is it, you Judyth, hope to accomplish through Dr. Fetzer and his good graces?
Thanks
David
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 16-03-2010
David,
Please read posts #25, #27, #41, and #47 in this thread, which address this issue. Before Jack went back to John Armstrong to discuss this, he displayed a more open mind that Judyth might be being harassed and stalked because of knowledge derived from her cancer research and work on bioweapons, as the posts from my psy ops expert suggest.
I think he is right, but I also believe her personal story humanizes the alleged assassin, who has been demonized for decades by the government and the mass media. A guy who had relationships, a sense of humor, who socialized and shared his life with someone else is a real human being--an implausibe candidate for "lone, demented gunman".
Her story makes it clear that he was working undercover for the government, knew he was being impersonated, and was attempting to save the president's life, not take it. For all of her imperfections, I believe in her and regard her story as extremely important and worth bringing to the public, even at the cost of antagonizing some very old friends.
Jim