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+--- Thread: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile (/thread-3232.html)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 23-03-2010
JUDYTH RESPONDS TO JACK WHITE:
I have a post from dated July 4, 2004, where Rich DellaRosa states that I resigned from his forum...DellaRosa also said that he not only erased the posts and files, but would do it again in a heartbeat, because I was telling 'fairytales' and had nothing to important to say. He also added some insults. I did not exhibit any 'abusive behavior' on the forum. his has been repeated several times by Jack and I wish to disabuse the reader who might start reading at this point in the thread.
==RESPONSE TO THE REST OF J W'S POST==MY COMMENTS IN CAPS==
Her story at that time...and my memory from that far back may be faulty, and Rich is no longer available to confirm, here is how I remember it, and arguments about it led to JVB eventually being banished from the forum for abusive behavior:
QUOTES FROM RICH DELLAROSA, JULY 4, 2004:
....you ersased (sic) everything.
You resigned...
"Your posts were deleted AFTER you resigned."
[I DISAGREE: THEY WERE ERASED BEFORE I RESIGNED]
JVB's story then (as I recall) was that LHO and JVB conversed EVERY night by phone.
==ON TMWKK THE LOVE AFFAIR AND EVER SINCE 1999 WHEN I FIRST SPOKE OUT, I MENTIONED 14-15 PHONE CALLS BETWEEN OCTOBER 6 AND EARLY AM NOV. 21.==
He would go across Beckley Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall.
==IT HAS NEVER BEEN COUNTERED. A JANITOR IS IN THE MARY FERRELL CHRONOLOGY REPORTING SEEING LEE OSWALD THERE THE LAST NIGHT HE CALLED ME. I DID NOT SAY THAT LEE USED THE LAUNDROMAT EVERY TIME FOR A CALL. I DESCRIBED BEING ABLE TO HEAR CARS PASSING BY ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS...NOR DID I CLAIM A PAYPHONE EXISTED INSIDE THE LAUNDROMAT. I HAVE SOME INFORMATION ABOUT HIS, THOUGH, THAT THE RESEARCH COMMUNITY SHOULD KNOW ABOUT. IT CASTS ASPERSIONS ON THE ROLE AND CONDUCT OF RUTH PAINE ON THE EVENING OF NOV. 21==
Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.
==INACCURATE. THE JANITOR'S LAUNDROMAT REPORT WAS FROM THE FBI.==
At that time, pay phone calls were timed by the minute, and were very expensive, especially long distance, and JVB had LHO spending huge sums on pay phone calls.
==FALSE. JACK WHITE HAS OBVIOUSLY NEVER SEEN THE LOVE AFFAIR DOCUMENTARY, WHERE I EXPLAIN WE TAPPED INTO A MAFIA RACING LINE AND ALL CALLS WERE FREE. I EXPLAINED HE SET-UP TO "60 MINUTES" IN SOME DETAIL. A GOOD RESEARCHER SHOULD A LEAST LOOK AT THE DOCUMENTARY, WHICH IN ITSELF IS JUST A DISTILLATION.... WITNESSES ARE NOT IN IT DUE TO THEIR FEAR. WE HAVE DOCUMENTED PRESSURE USED AGAINST ANNA LEWIS, FOR EXAMPLE.==
Then she told of a very long call the night of November 21,
==FALSE. NEVER SAID THAT. IT WAS LATE ON THE NIGHT OF WEDNESDAY, NOV. 20, EXTENDING INTO EARLY AM NOV. 21. ==
lasting past midnight. This was countered with the fact that LHO was in Irving and not at the rooming house, and his pre-assassination night was well documented. When reminded that LHO could not call from the all-night laundromat, JVB was adamant that the long midnight call was made,
[NOT TRUE!]
and that he found another pay phone in Irving.
[NOT TRUE!]
==UTTER FABRICATION THAT DOES NOT MATCH ANYTHING EVER WRITTEN OR SPOKEN BY ME.....FALSE STATEMENTS ARE BEING ATTRIBUTED TO ME==
For this to have happened, LHO would have had to get out of bed without waking Marina, leave the Paine house secretly, walk to find a pay phone in the residential neighborhood, talk a long time, return to the Paine house, and sneak back into bed without awakening Marina or children. This is how I remember the forum exchanges from years ago.
==YOU HAVE THE DATE WRONG, JACK. I HAVE ALWAYS STATED THE CALL WAS THE NIGHT OF NOV. 20 TO EARLY AM NOV. 21. I HAVE TO RESPOND BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL THINK YOU ARE CORRECT, AND YOU ARE NOT. A DIFFERENT FORUM STARTED SAYING "SHE SAID SHE 'TALKED TO OSWALD ON NOV. 21" AND THE NEXT THING I KNEW, THEY SAID WE TALKED THE NIGHT OF NOV. 21. I TRIED TO CORRECT THEM, BUT MY STATEMENT WAS IGNORED.. THIS MAY BE WHAT YOU RECALL.==
JVB became very abusive to Rich and some other researchers after about nine months, and Rich finally banished JVB and her supporters (at that time mostly Martin Shackleford, Bob Vernon, Wim Dankbaar and several others).
==I TRY NOT TO BE ABUSIVE TO ANYONE, JACK. PEOPLE SUPPORTING ME THERE OBJECTED TO MY TREATMENT AND GOT BANISHED, TOO. THINK ABOUT THAT! WHAT IF THE EDUCATION FORUM BANISHED DR. FETZER, GREG BURNHAM AND PAMELA BROWN FOR DEFENDING SOME OF MY STATEMENTS ON THESE THREADS? BUT THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED IN DELLAROSA'S FORUM.==
My details may not be totally accurate, but this is the gist that I remember from those long ago arguments. In the aftermath of the banishments, someone with an ISP in Amsterdam hacked Rich's forum twice, each time causing it to go down for several days, and losing earlier messages, including the JVB exchanges.
==THESE MAY HAVE BEEN THE DUTCH THIEVES, WHO STOLE MY BELONGINGS, THREATENED MY FRIENDS, HACKED INTO EVERYWHERE I HAD POSTED AND DELETED MY POSTS. THEY ALSO HACKED INTO MY COMPUTER, STOLE MY BOOK, AND POSTED ALTERED VERSIONS OF IT ONLINE, PICKED UP BY MCADAMS TO USE AGAINST ME, THIS MATERIAL INCLUDED THE UNFINISHED OUTLINE 'DEADLY ALLIANCE' WHICH HAD NOT YET BEEN CORRECTED IN FULL, BUT IS SILL BEING USED AGAINST ME WITH ITS SEVERAL ERRORS LEFT TO VIEW==
The phone call story seemed preposterous to some on the forum then, and I still find it difficult to swallow. I feel I must speak up again, because this same argument I thought was settled years ago, and now it surfaces again.
==YOU HAVE IT WRONG, JACK. MARRS, LIVINGSTONE, SHACKELFORD, DEVRIES, DANKBAAR, PLATZMAN AND OTHERS KNOW THE TIME LINE HAS NEVER CHANGED AND NO CALL EVER OCCURRED THE NIGHT OF THE 21ST. NOR DID I EVER STATE ANYTHING ABOUT A CALL FOR IRVING FOR THAT DATE.I STOUTLY DEFENDED THE MATTER EXACTLY AS I AM DOING NOW. BUT IT WAS ERASED==
Jack
ADDENDUM: During the midnight phone call, LHO told JVB that JFK would be killed on Friday, as the story goes. This caused forum members to charge JVB with being an accessory to the assassination, if she knew in advance of the attempt and did not try to contact authorities. This led to various accusations and counter accusations, as I recall.
[quote name='Jack White' date='Mar 23 2010, 03:48 AM' post='187523']
I had vowed not to waste more time on the JVB story, but I cannot let this go unchallenged. It covers the
same ground which was disputed years ago on the DellaRosa forum.
With due respect to Greg and Jim...the latest is not the way I remember it...from about 8 years ago on Rich's forum.
Her story at that time...and my memory from that far back may be faulty, and Rich is no longer available to
confirm, here is how I remember it, and arguments about it led to JVB eventually being banished from the
forum for abusive behavior:
JVB's story then (as I recall) was that LHO and JVB conversed EVERY night by phone. He would go across Beckley
Street from his rooming house to a 24-hour laundromat and call her on a pay phone there, and they would talk for
hours. This was countered on several counts, as I recall. Some researcher found no such nearby laundromat existed.
At that time, pay phone calls were timed by the minute, and were very expensive, especially long distance, and
JVB had LHO spending huge sums on pay phone calls. Then she told of a very long call the night of November 21,
lasting past midnight. This was countered with the fact that LHO was in Irving and not at the rooming house,
and his pre-assassination night was well documented. When reminded that LHO could not call from the all-night
laundromat, JVB was adamant that the long midnight call was made, and that he found another pay phone in
Irving. For this to have happened, LHO would have had to get out of bed without waking Marina, leave the
Paine house secretly, walk to find a pay phone in the residential neighborhood, talk a long time, return
to the Paine house, and sneak back into bed without awakening Marina or children. This is how I remember
the forum exchanges from years ago. JVB became very abusive to Rich and some other researchers after
about nine months, and Rich finally banished JVB and her supporters (at that time mostly Martin Shackleford,
Bob Vernon, Wim Dankbaar and several others). My details may not be totally accurate, but this is the gist
that I remember from those long ago arguments. In the aftermath of the banishments, someone with an ISP
in Amsterdam hacked Rich's forum twice, each time causing it to go down for several days, and losing earlier
messages, including the JVB exchanges.
The phone call story seemed preposterous to some on the forum then, and I still find it difficult to swallow. I feel I
must speak up again, because this same argument I thought was settled years ago, and now it surfaces again.
Jack
ADDENDUM: During the midnight phone call, LHO told JVB that JFK would be killed on Friday, as the story goes.
This caused forum members to charge JVB with being an accessory to the assassination, if she knew in
advance of the attempt and did not try to contact authorities. This led to various accusations and counter
accusations, as I recall.
[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Linda Minor - 23-03-2010
Quote:JUDYTH REPLIES TO ME ABOUT THE DOCUMENT:
I AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT, JIM. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT LEAKING A DOCUMENT THAT CONTAINS TRUE INFORMATION
-- A DOCUMENT WHICH CAN LATER BE ASSESSED TO BE FALSE -- THEN LEADS THE READER TO BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE DOCUMENT IS FALSE. WHATEVER IS INSERTED INTO THE DOCUMENT IS THEN CONSIDERED BOGUS.
BUT THIS METHOD ALLOWS TWO THINGS TO HAPPEN:
1) RESEARCHERS WHO BELIEVE THE DOCUMENT IS AUTHENTIC ARE THEREBY DISCREDITED WHEN ITS FALSITY IS PROVEN, THUS DIMINISHING THEIR REPUTATIONS;
2) IF THE TRUTH EVER DOES COME OUT, IT CAN BE SAID THAT A PORTION OF THE DOCUMENT WAS TRUE -- BUT SO WHAT?
MEANWHILE, ALL THE INFORMATION IS PLACED IN A 'SUSPICIOUS' CATEGORY. THIS TAKES EYES AWAY FROM CONSIDERATION OF TRUE FACTS THUS REVEALED, FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCREDITING THEM, AS UNWORTHY OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
FRANKLY, IT DID NO HARM TO BE POSTED SINCE, AS A DISINFO PIECE, IT ACTUALLY POINTS OUT WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT.
SOPHISTICATED MEANS WERE USED TO CREATE THE FAKE DOCUMENT, SHOWING US THAT THE CREATOR(S) WELL KNEW WHAT ELEMENTS TO PLACE IN THE DOCUMENT TO MAKE IT APPEAR TRUE.
BUT THE DOCUMENT WAS CLEVERLY CREATED SO THAT ALSO, UPON CLOSE INSPECTION BY PERSONS WE MUST THEN CONSIDER AS EITHER BRILLIANT BUT INNOCENT OR SPECIALLY SELECTED TO 'OUT' THE DOCUMENT AS 'FAKE', IT WOULD FAIL 'AUTHENTICITY' TESTS.
BECAUSE IT WAS STAMPED CONFIDENTIAL' WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN STAMPED AT LEAST 'SECRET' TO ME IS A GIVEAWAY, BUT BILL KELLY WOULD KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT THAN I WOULD....
THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE ONI I BELIEVE ARE TRUE. LEE SAID HE WAS 'BORROWED' FROM 'ANOTHER AGENCY' TO BE USED BY THE CIA.
SO I REPEAT:
MEANWHILE, ALL THE INFORMATION IN HE DOCUMENT IS NOW PLACED IN A 'SUSPICIOUS' CATEGORY BY RESEARCHERS. THIS REMINDS ME OF A MINK COAT THAT CAN'T BE ADVERTISED AS A MINK COAT BECAUSE 50% OF IT IS MUSKRAT, EVEN THOUGH IT'S 50% MINK -- IT'S STILL A FAKE.
CALLING ALL INFORMATION WITHIN THE FAKE DOCUMENT 'FAKE' TAKES EYES AWAY FROM CONSIDERATION OF TRUE FACTS WITHIN THE FAKE DOCUMENT, POSSIBLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF LEADING INVESTIGATORS AWAY FROM SENSITIVE AND REAL FACTS AS UNWORTHY OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
FOR THESE REASONS, I SAY, LET IT STAY, WITH QUALIFYING STATEMENTS:
(1) WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE OF THIS DOCUMENT?
(2) WHO FIRST SAID IT WAS A FAKE?
(3) WHO WAS MOST INTERESTED, AMONG THE WC DEFENDERS, IN PROVING THAT THE DOCUMENT WAS FALSE?
ALL THREE QUESTIONS ARE GREAT CLUES IN DETERMINING THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MATTER.
IT'S ALMOST AS GOOD AS A FAKE DOCUMENT AS IT IS AS AN AUTHENTIC ONE, AS IT CAN GIVE US LEADS AS TO LINKS TO DISINFO ARTISTS AND THEIR COMPATRIOTS IN THE MISCHIEF.
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION...I DEFER TO THOSE WHO KNOW MORE...
JVB
The way I test things like this is to search the Mary Ferrell website. First I, too, noticed that this was only coded Confidential, and nothing was redacted. That was the first clue. But then I looked for words in the body that could be searched, most notable here being "De Bruey memorandum". No combination of those words appears in MF website that I could find. The only other possible combination of words to search that would not bring up hits too myriad to check was "junior Commission." It brought no hits.
I think it's probably a fake, and I would remove it, if it were up to me.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 23-03-2010
Well, it's an interesting case, isn't it, because it appears to be a fake document with true content. I infer that we have discussed it enough that no one is going to mistake why it is interesting, including from the point of view of the methods that are used to mislead and deceive us. I don't see the point, under these circumstances, of removing it, when it is only part of this forum's record of this thread. I would of course discuss it in a book if it were included there, but Judyth is well aware of its character and I think the prospect of its misuse by her or any of her readers is very slight, indeed. I take it to be a fascinating example of how these things are done and recommend it in that light. It seems to me to present TRUE CONTENT about Lee and his activities, which tends to confirm what Judyth has to tell us. Why else, after all, would anyone bother to FAKE THIS DOCUMENT? As such, it is extremely instructive.
Linda Minor Wrote:Quote:JUDYTH REPLIES TO ME ABOUT THE DOCUMENT:
I AGREE WITH YOUR ASSESSMENT, JIM. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT LEAKING A DOCUMENT THAT CONTAINS TRUE INFORMATION
-- A DOCUMENT WHICH CAN LATER BE ASSESSED TO BE FALSE -- THEN LEADS THE READER TO BELIEVE THAT ALL OF THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE DOCUMENT IS FALSE. WHATEVER IS INSERTED INTO THE DOCUMENT IS THEN CONSIDERED BOGUS.
BUT THIS METHOD ALLOWS TWO THINGS TO HAPPEN:
1) RESEARCHERS WHO BELIEVE THE DOCUMENT IS AUTHENTIC ARE THEREBY DISCREDITED WHEN ITS FALSITY IS PROVEN, THUS DIMINISHING THEIR REPUTATIONS;
2) IF THE TRUTH EVER DOES COME OUT, IT CAN BE SAID THAT A PORTION OF THE DOCUMENT WAS TRUE -- BUT SO WHAT?
MEANWHILE, ALL THE INFORMATION IS PLACED IN A 'SUSPICIOUS' CATEGORY. THIS TAKES EYES AWAY FROM CONSIDERATION OF TRUE FACTS THUS REVEALED, FOR THE PURPOSE OF DISCREDITING THEM, AS UNWORTHY OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
FRANKLY, IT DID NO HARM TO BE POSTED SINCE, AS A DISINFO PIECE, IT ACTUALLY POINTS OUT WHAT WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT.
SOPHISTICATED MEANS WERE USED TO CREATE THE FAKE DOCUMENT, SHOWING US THAT THE CREATOR(S) WELL KNEW WHAT ELEMENTS TO PLACE IN THE DOCUMENT TO MAKE IT APPEAR TRUE.
BUT THE DOCUMENT WAS CLEVERLY CREATED SO THAT ALSO, UPON CLOSE INSPECTION BY PERSONS WE MUST THEN CONSIDER AS EITHER BRILLIANT BUT INNOCENT OR SPECIALLY SELECTED TO 'OUT' THE DOCUMENT AS 'FAKE', IT WOULD FAIL 'AUTHENTICITY' TESTS.
BECAUSE IT WAS STAMPED CONFIDENTIAL' WHEN IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN STAMPED AT LEAST 'SECRET' TO ME IS A GIVEAWAY, BUT BILL KELLY WOULD KNOW MORE ABOUT THAT THAN I WOULD....
THE STATEMENTS ABOUT THE ONI I BELIEVE ARE TRUE. LEE SAID HE WAS 'BORROWED' FROM 'ANOTHER AGENCY' TO BE USED BY THE CIA.
SO I REPEAT:
MEANWHILE, ALL THE INFORMATION IN HE DOCUMENT IS NOW PLACED IN A 'SUSPICIOUS' CATEGORY BY RESEARCHERS. THIS REMINDS ME OF A MINK COAT THAT CAN'T BE ADVERTISED AS A MINK COAT BECAUSE 50% OF IT IS MUSKRAT, EVEN THOUGH IT'S 50% MINK -- IT'S STILL A FAKE.
CALLING ALL INFORMATION WITHIN THE FAKE DOCUMENT 'FAKE' TAKES EYES AWAY FROM CONSIDERATION OF TRUE FACTS WITHIN THE FAKE DOCUMENT, POSSIBLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF LEADING INVESTIGATORS AWAY FROM SENSITIVE AND REAL FACTS AS UNWORTHY OF FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
FOR THESE REASONS, I SAY, LET IT STAY, WITH QUALIFYING STATEMENTS:
(1) WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE OF THIS DOCUMENT?
(2) WHO FIRST SAID IT WAS A FAKE?
(3) WHO WAS MOST INTERESTED, AMONG THE WC DEFENDERS, IN PROVING THAT THE DOCUMENT WAS FALSE?
ALL THREE QUESTIONS ARE GREAT CLUES IN DETERMINING THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MATTER.
IT'S ALMOST AS GOOD AS A FAKE DOCUMENT AS IT IS AS AN AUTHENTIC ONE, AS IT CAN GIVE US LEADS AS TO LINKS TO DISINFO ARTISTS AND THEIR COMPATRIOTS IN THE MISCHIEF.
JUST MY HUMBLE OPINION...I DEFER TO THOSE WHO KNOW MORE...
JVB
The way I test things like this is to search the Mary Ferrell website. First I, too, noticed that this was only coded Confidential, and nothing was redacted. That was the first clue. But then I looked for words in the body that could be searched, most notable here being "De Bruey memorandum". No combination of those words appears in MF website that I could find. The only other possible combination of words to search that would not bring up hits too myriad to check was "junior Commission." It brought no hits.
I think it's probably a fake, and I would remove it, if it were up to me.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 24-03-2010
JUDYTH COMMENTS ON THE "TWO" MARGUERITES
[NOTE: This will be presented in three parts and may require some work for me to get it right.]
WHO WAS MARGUERITE OSWALD? PART I
A study of Marguerite Claverie Oswald as [proposed] surrogate mother of “Harvey” Oswald
INTRODUCTION:
Marguerite Claverie Oswald was Lee Harvey Oswald’s mother. Or was she?
The question has been raised by John Armstrong. We cannot, in one fell swoop, resolve the entire matter of “Harvey” and “Lee” behind this question by examining only the person of Marguerite. There are school records of “Lee” and “Harvey” for example, that must be examined in yet another study. Mr. Armstrong has assembled many records. His book is huge, I’m told. I have been sent excerpts and have the CD photo collection he published. Mr. Armstrong traveled far and wide to get his information. He even flew to Argentina to interview some witnesses.
But he did not travel to Louisiana to interview me. He did interview me for a few minutes in one telephone call. He dismissed me, I am told by persons who spoke to him at COPA in 2009, because I stated I was not pregnant in 1963 and therefore, in his mind, I could not have posed as Marina Oswald.
Well, neither of us has read the other’s book. Living in exile made it impossible to order his book without disclosing my locations. However, I had a close relationship with Lee H. Oswald for months in New Orleans, and later by telephone, we planned an escape to Mexico. I learned way too much for my own good and am paying the price now.
Without digressing about how much Lee confided in me (anyone who reads my book understands that I went to extraordinary lengths to get his trust) I do feel obligated, knowing what I know, to set the record straight. “Harvey and Lee” structured researchers try to force me to divide everything of probative value between two identities—a “Harvey” and a “Lee.” I was actually asked several times by Armstrong theory supporters to show them, through photos, which man I knew—was it “Harvey” or was it “Lee”?
I refused to answer the question – it is all too close to “When did you stop beating your wife?” By pointing to one set, I was thus acknowledging that the other set belonged to “Lee” (or the other way around). I was then accused of refusing to answer their questions. I was even accused of responding discourteously, which was not the case. Recently, the same scenario was repeated at The Education Forum.
Let’s get a level playing field.
To attain that, I present here information of my own, along with observations from my knowledge of linguistics, as well as medical information. The information I offer may serve to change the outlook about collections of photographs of “This is Harvey Oswald” and “This is Lee Oswald” as actually belonging in the more logical categories of verified “Lee Harvey Oswald” photographs and “imposters.”
A FINE RESEARCHER
John Armstrong has collected many new pieces of information about Lee H. Oswald. Here is a telling passage from his online (and at first, compelling) article about “Two Oswalds”
“…According to McBride's information and Marine Corps records it appeared that from October, 1957 thru August, 1958 there was a "Lee Harvey Oswald" living with his "mother" in either New Orleans or Fort Worth while a second "Lee Harvey Oswald" was stationed in Japan and his "mother" was working at Paul's Shoe store in Fort Worth. At first this sounded ridiculous, even though I had documents, photographs, and statements from people who were with Oswald in different locations at the same time. Later, I also realized that if there were two "Lee Harvey Oswalds" at age 17 (and younger), then each of these boys had to have a parent or guardian ("Marguerite Oswald") to care for them. “
Ref: JFK 101 An excerpt from
"Harvey & Lee: How the CIA Framed Oswald by John Armstrong
http://www.jfkresearch.com/jfk_101.html
I was surprised that Armstrong takes Marine records at face value, photographs about LHO in the newspapers when he defected at face value, and then can propose that two Marguerite Oswalds may have existed to take care of two different lads getting prepared at an age even younger than 17, “to care for them.” To support his thesis, Armstrong juxtaposes interviews that show conflict in time and dates. This is an entirely different issue, but the fact that so many documents about Kennedy have been altered, such as his x-rays, medical reports, etc. we must be very carefully what we accept as ‘fact’ from sources out there.
Especially without checking with all the witnesses who have claimed to have known Oswald during one of the most critical times in Oswald’s life. It has not been pleasant, standing out there to take dives from seagulls when I’m holding out a digestible chunk of information for the research community. But I do have information showing that the Marguerite Oswald we can trace all the way back to Ekdahl, at least, is the same Marguerite Oswald who spoke to reporters mourning the death of her son and insisting that he had been framed “by the State Department.”
Marguerite was right about that. Why would she bring this matter up to the whole world if she were part of some operation where she became a substitute mother?
I believe we have good reason to continue in our investigation of evidence that there was just one Marguerite. Besides hypothyroidism, what else could put Oswald’s mother back into one category instead of two? Was she the same woman who was born in the New Orleans area?
Let’s listen to her voice, remembering that Mr. Armstrong and those who have worked very hard with him, have come to believe the woman who married Edwin A. Ekdahl in 1945, about six years after the sudden death of her second husband (Lee’s [“Harvey”’s] father) is not the same woman as the one seen in the photograph here, whose voice can be heard on
YouTube::
![[Image: wtu8v5.jpg]](http://i39.tinypic.com/wtu8v5.jpg)
1965 TV interview 5 min, 24 sec.
With a large portion including an on-camera interview of Marguerite Oswald.
Ref: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXTo7RM0_ac
We don’t get much help from newspapers: this is from The New York Times:
FORT WORTH, Jan. 17, 1981
Marguerite Oswald, mother of Lee Harvey Oswald, died today of cancer. She was 73 years old. Mrs. Oswald waged a campaign against the findings of the Warren Commission, which concluded that her son murdered President Kennedy in 1963.
There are photos of Marguerite that show her relatively slim and trim. They are all photos taken before Lee Oswald went into the Marines, at barely age 17.
![[Image: 25i9kiw.jpg]](http://i44.tinypic.com/25i9kiw.jpg)
THE EFFECTS OF HYPOTHYROIDISM
“According to conventional medicine, low sex drive is not necessarily a disease. Neither is a little dry skin or constipation or being tired most of the day. But for you, those problems are significant. So what causes them? Often, they're caused by a condition that goes undiagnosed in half of the 45 million people who have it. It's called hypothyroidism.’ [Mark Hyman, M.D.]
‘”….thyroid deficiency [Is] a cause of common age-associated maladies such as depression, fatigue, and unwanted weight gain….’ [Dr. Ana Hernandez, Youthful Aging Center ]
Dry skin • Hoarse voice/voice changes • Thinning hair • Coarse hair
A YouTube comment: “Marguerite's speaking voice can be irritating at times, but these are rare recordings ...” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLWu50uPAWs&feature=related [NOTE: Removed for "terms of use violation.]
Notice her voice in this recording: ( late 1964 or in 1965…?):
“…he was wide open…” as to Lee’s protection, she says, when he was shot [this is true].
She says he’s framed. “Our trouble is in our State Department….” She says, basically, a coup occurred, too complicated to go into in a short interview. She is then treated almost with contempt...It is obviously such a shocking statement that she is considered totally out of touch with reality (we know better now). From then on, her reputation declined and she was always being noted for her emotional outbursts and ‘weird’ statements. Character assassination was in full swing. Notice she is wearing makeup and looks nicer than when she was stressed out, at the funeral of her son.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 24-03-2010
JUDYTH COMMENTS ON THE "TWO" MARGUERITES
[NOTE: This will be presented in three parts and may require some work for me to get it right.]
WHO WAS MARGUERITE OSWALD? PART II
A study of Marguerite Claverie Oswald as [proposed] surrogate mother of “Harvey” Oswald
This photo is claimed by John Armstrong and others to be of “Harvey’s” mother. She is supposed to have replaced “Harvey”’s real mother. Another Marguerite is supposed to have been “Harvey”’s original mother. In other places in Armstrong’s writings about Lee Oswald’s family (Harvey’s), he states the original family might have been Hungarian-speaking.
![[Image: 24m70ae.jpg]](http://i42.tinypic.com/24m70ae.jpg)
“Above: A severely affected 14-year-old hypothyroid girl with puffiness around the eyes, thickened lips, depressed root of the nose (saddle nose), and straight, coarse hair. The second picture was taken after only 6 months of treatment with desiccated thyroid. Note the elevated bridge of the nose, brighter eyes, thinner lips, and glossy, curly hair. Her constipation had resolved and her appetite improved.”
http://www.type2hypothyroidism.com/Type1VsType2.html
HERE’S ANOTHER EXAMPLE:
![[Image: 2dtqfpt.jpg]](http://i39.tinypic.com/2dtqfpt.jpg)
..and another…
![[Image: 2wqe39d.jpg]](http://i42.tinypic.com/2wqe39d.jpg)
Note that Hypothyroidism, or an under-active thyroid, is 10 times more common in women than men. Now let’s look at Marguerite Oswald:
![[Image: 339rtwz.jpg]](http://i42.tinypic.com/339rtwz.jpg)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 24-03-2010
JUDYTH COMMENTS ON THE "TWO" MARGUERITES
[NOTE: This will be presented in three parts and may require some work for me to get it right.]
WHO WAS MARGUERITE OSWALD? PART III
A study of Marguerite Claverie Oswald as [proposed] surrogate mother of “Harvey” Oswald
![[Image: dpfkuw.jpg]](http://i44.tinypic.com/dpfkuw.jpg)
Between 1939 and the late 60’s or so, a lot can happen when hypothyroidism is at work. Hypothyroidism often goes undiagnosed. Even today, it is called the most undiagnosed of all chronic debilitating conditions. Note this Google entry (and there are many more):
1. Hypothyroidism— the Most Under-Diagnosed Condition | EmpowHER ...
24 Mar 2009 ... Hypothyroidism— the Most Under-Diagnosed Condition. March 24, 2009 - 2:18pm 833 reads 2 ... CONNECT with Women Interested inHypothyroidism ...
http://www.empowher.com/.../hypothyroidism—-most-under-diagnosed-condition - Cached
To review: Fully developed thickened nose. The chin gets thicker with the condition. Facial features coarsen. Hair loss continues. “…the hypothyroid state [includes] fat pads on back, pudgy hands, broad face, fiat nose, large tongue, and pot belly.’
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It is possible that Marguerite Oswald had this condition. It would explain what seems to be “two” Marguerite Oswalds.
It is a natural explanation, a reasonable one, and one which must be considered. Often the simplest explanation for why a person seems to be different from what she looked in high school is a medical explanation. My features also changed and coarsened and I gained weight because I, too, suffered from hypothyroidism for years before it was diagnosed.
The only photo where “Marguerite”’s eyebrows do not go upward is in an early photo John Armstrong obtained of Marguerite Oswald showing her ‘tall and slender’ tough she is sorter than those around her in the photo — it is the one shown above after the Ekdahl photo. But one thing at a time.
The matter of height –- a concern voiced by Armstrong who sees a reduced height later -- is not thoroughly addressed. Measurements can be take from photographs. Marguerite is shown in the Ekdahl photo wearing fashionable high heels. Over time, osteoporosis can make a woman lose inches in height. But did Marguerite really shrink to shrimp-size?
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Marina Oswald and I are both 5’ 2” tall. In this photo, Marguerite sits higher in the couch than Marina does. Her head is higher, while her legs are extended, showing she is actually seated further forward than Marina, and therefore, is even a bit taller than she seems here. Marguerite is more than 5’ 2” tall. She seems closer to 5’ 5.” Measurements can be taken.
In the next photo, her shoulders are not much lower than Robert Oswald’s (turned). Robert is considerably taller than Marina: hence, Marguerite is not ‘that’ short, after all.
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MARGUERITE OSWALD’S SPEECH HABITS
I have taken many linguistics courses, including courses at the doctoral level, at three universities -- most recently, at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. Besides courses there in sociolinguistics and psycholinguistics, one course was an independent study on Cajun and Louisiana-based linguistic speech habits.
First, we must establish the identity of the woman in the photograph above as native-born in Louisiana with Cajun speech community influences, as her French-style maiden name suggests.
Marguerite Oswald was born Marguerite Claverie. In the interview cited here, a linguist can hear certain word choices and their pronunciations typical of an urban-raised Cajun who had lived a long time in the New Orleans area.
I interviewed over 400 Cajun speaking older people for a research project and have kept some of these tapes. I chose people who were live adults in 1963, partly because I hoped to find witnesses concerning Lee and me. An article I wrote about these interviews was published in the local Lafayette, LA newspaper during the Christmas season of 1998, about Christmas as ‘it used to be” from the 1960’s backward to the early 1920’s. Such a topic gave me the opportunity to hear the names and whereabouts of relatives. In this manner, in fact, I was able to locate one of my witnesses, Anna Lewis.
With this background information, and the information shown just below, we assert the fact that Marguerite Oswald’s voice indicates that she was born and raised in New Orleans, her speech habits influenced by her Cajun-bred family and environment. We must then ask ourselves if this woman was capable of being a substitute mother for “Harvey” as claimed. For now, we will not look at Lee’s/Harvey’s school records — this we leave for another examination to be forthcoming.
MARGUERITE OSWALD’S RECORDED INTERVIEW ~1965:
There are traces of Texas accent in her voice—not surprising, since she also lived for years in Texas. However, the linguistically-trained ear can pick up typical Cajun-influenced pronunciation in Marguerite’s interview, which was conducted after the Warren Commission’s report was issued:
“Didn” intead of “didn’t” (no ‘t’ sound)
“im-ME-jut-lee” instead of “immediately”
Another place says, she does say ‘immediately,’ but it is in a different kind of placement in the sentence, allowing her more time to speak the word properly… Such a mixed linguistic habit is commonly found in urban New Orleans speech patterns in the 1960’s, among Cajuns with some early education in standard English.
“Course” instead of “of course’
“Hah-vey” instead of “Harvey”
“wile” instead of “wild”
“…understand the impact of all of this…” all spoken with a in Cajun-influenced accent
“I din’n give him the emotional support…”
In addition, her sentence structure habit is also Cajun-influenced.
Conclusion: Marguerite Claverie Oswald was born in Louisiana and her early childhood, at least, was spent specifically in the New Orleans area. She has had only a moderate level of education, but the length of her sentences, length of words chosen, and appropriate responses under stress in this interview indicate that she was above average in intelligence.
A note in passing: I have also analyzed Lee Oswald’s voice recordings and assert that Lee Oswald spent his childhood in New Orleans, though he eradicated a great deal of his Texas-influenced accents and had mainstreamed his English speech patterns.
Due to his dyslexia, which made reading more difficult, Oswald had developed a good ear I compensation, allowing him to pass his classes more easily and also to pick up foreign languages with great facility. His facility in Russian came, however, from much practice, as I as a witness can testify. Lee Oswald constantly practiced his Russian with me.
I have brought to the attention for a decade the fact that Lee Oswald used the words “axed” /”Ax” for “ask”/”asked” in his radio ‘debate’ as well as before radio and TV microphones in Dallas just prior to his death by assassination.
In conclusion, the question has been raised: were there two Marguerite Oswalds, one raising “Harvey” and the other raising “Lee”? Photos of a relatively tall and slender Marguerite are matched against later photos showing a shorter, dumpy-looking woman.
I state as a witness that Lee Oswald told me his mother had aged fast --before her time -- and he blamed himself and his brothers as being a great burden to her. As a single mother, she found herself unable to cope with three boys and almost fell apart. Lee said that later, she had started to develop a goiter when they lived in Texas. Only recently, she had started using iodized salt and the goiter was being corrected. I explained to him that people with goiters had a thyroid problem –- and that was probably why she was depressed, moody, had gained so much weight, and why her hair was falling out, which distressed her a great deal.
About 70% of thyroid deficiencies go undetected among those with no health insurance. I, myself, almost went into a coma from thyroid deficiency because my health insurance did not support blood tests. I had volunteered and gave blood, for an experiment, and, about a week later, was called at 11:00 pm and told to immediately go to the emergency room. My thyroid level was so dangerously low that, in fact, I was quite ill by then and thought I was just fighting the flu. I would have gone into a coma if that call hadn’t roused me to go to the hospital. I experienced much what Marguerite did: weight gain, hair thinning to the point I was wearing a wig, dry skin, exhaustion. I aged a decade in a year. I must take thyroid replacement T4 for the rest of my life.
Seeing how drastically my own looks changed and how my hair thinned, and the great weight gain I experienced, when I saw the photos of Marguerite Oswald being labeled as a ‘different’ woman because she, too, had gained weight, had thinned hair, had coarsened facial features that ruined her good looks, with thickening in the neck area, I recognized that she probably suffered from hypothyroidism, not from “being a secret agent.”
Those who contend that Marguerite was not the same woman as shown in earlier photos may have been photography experts, but they were not trained in Cajun linguistic analysis. They were not trained in the medical sciences. I also have a degree in anthropology and have spent years—some documented as advanced courses—in forensics studies.
I offer this information in the hope that I have shed more light on an explanation for Marguerite Oswald’s radical change in appearance over the years. Other matters can be handled as they arise by inspecting the accuracy and extensiveness of research conducted in this area by Armstrong and others. It is because of my status as witness that I was able to come to some of these conclusions, having been told by Lee Oswald that his mother had aged quickly and had some kind of thyroid problem. I have told researchers about this problem, by the way, ever since 2000.
Judyth Vary Baker
March, 2010
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - David Healy - 24-03-2010
Jim,
Will Judyth participate on your radio show? If so, WHEN?
and a simple question: how long did Judyth and LHO's relationship last?
DavidH.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 24-03-2010
What JVB IGNORES is the timeline involved!
TWO MARGUERITES lived AT THE SAME TIME, one in Fort Worth
and one in New Orleans. This is DOCUMENTED. There were
two DIFFERENT WOMEN using the name Marguerite Oswald
and each had a son in junior high school AT THE SAME TIME!
The Fort Worth Marguerite worked at Paul's Shoe Store on
Houston Street; the New Orleans Marguerite worked at a hosiery
store on Canal Street. The Fort Worth LHO attended Stripling
Junior High School; the New Orleans LHO attended Beauregard
Junior High School. This is documented!
JVB is MISREPRESENTING the research of John Armstrong!
Jack
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 24-03-2010
April 20: Judyth arrives in New Orleans.
April 26: Judyth meets Oswald in front of the post office when Judyth
went there to get a letter from her fiancé, Robert Baker.
And the last time they spoke was Wednesday night/Thursday morning
about 37 1/2 hours before the assassination.
I have invited her to be my guest and would feature her for a week (three
shows in succession) if we can work it out.
David Healy Wrote:Jim,
Will Judyth participate on your radio show? If so, WHEN?
and a simple question: how long did Judyth and LHO's relationship last?
DavidH.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 24-03-2010
Jack,
She is doing what she can without having his book available.
As I see it, she is addressing the photographic evidence you
and John have adduced. I think she is doing a good job of it.
I am sending her a copy of HARVEY & LEE. If she can do all
she is doing without even having his book available to her,
imagine what she may be able to do after she has it in hand.
I will be sure to direct her attention to the points you make.
But what I can't imagine is what you would be posting here
if you actually did have some massive bias against Judyth!
Jim
Jack White Wrote:What JVB IGNORES is the timeline involved!
TWO MARGUERITES lived AT THE SAME TIME, one in Fort Worth
and one in New Orleans. This is DOCUMENTED. There were
two DIFFERENT WOMEN using the name Marguerite Oswald
and each had a son in junior high school AT THE SAME TIME!
The Fort Worth Marguerite worked at Paul's Shoe Store on
Houston Street; the New Orleans Marguerite worked at a hosiery
store on Canal Street. The Fort Worth LHO attended Stripling
Junior High School; the New Orleans LHO attended Beauregard
Junior High School. This is documented!
JVB is MISREPRESENTING the research of John Armstrong!
Jack