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+--- Thread: Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile (/thread-3232.html)
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - John Kowalski - 08-03-2010
Jack White Wrote:John Kowalski Wrote:Remarkably, the book was originally more than 2000 pages
long, but John had to edit tightly and leave out lots of valuable
evidence which should have been included...such as his interviews
with the Ziger sisters in Argentina, and his detailed revelations
about Donald O. Norton.
Jack
Let's hope that John Armstrong will someday release the rest of his research on Lee Harvey Oswald to the research community. While this material does not meet the standards he used for the material that was included in his book, if made available to JFK researchers, could be explored and expanded upon by the JFK research community, and may even be able to answer some of the questions that he left unanswered in his book.
John Kowalski
Copies of all of John's work will eventually be placed with a major
research library. Part of it has already been processed.[/QUOTE]
Which library?
John Kowalski
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 09-03-2010
John Kowalski Wrote:Jack White Wrote:John Kowalski Wrote:Remarkably, the book was originally more than 2000 pages
long, but John had to edit tightly and leave out lots of valuable
evidence which should have been included...such as his interviews
with the Ziger sisters in Argentina, and his detailed revelations
about Donald O. Norton.
Jack
Let's hope that John Armstrong will someday release the rest of his research on Lee Harvey Oswald to the research community. While this material does not meet the standards he used for the material that was included in his book, if made available to JFK researchers, could be explored and expanded upon by the JFK research community, and may even be able to answer some of the questions that he left unanswered in his book.
John Kowalski
Copies of all of John's work will eventually be placed with a major
research library. Part of it has already been processed.
Which library?
John Kowalski[/QUOTE]
The Penn Jones Library at Baylor University has begun copying,
but nothing will be available for a long time. It may take several
years, since John lives in Hawaii, and all his materials are in storage
on the mainland with a friend. I think only 4 of the 40+ 4" 3-ring
binders were scanned in November. It may be a long time before
more are scanned. I do not know the arrangements, but it is likely
that it will be a long time before the library has any documents to
make available.
Jack
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 09-03-2010
Judyth responds to Jack and Barb about photographs of "the two Marguerites":
A little ray of sun for these presently hard hours....Martha's family is now convinced from symptoms
reported that she did not die of the flu...and I just saw a summary of her last hour on earth and cried a lot more...
Meanwhile--Barb is quoting from the stolen book that the Dutch thieves sent to McAdams.
I had never had a chance to correct it.
When I later did, Barb, as she even dares to say, claims I changed my story.
This is so mean and trivial. God bless you all.
Soon I will show you what I have uncovered in the evidence about Marguerite,
using my medical knowledge.
I have Armstrong's photos where he divides the same woman in half to fit his theory.
Sadly, by coming against Armstrong, Jack White may feel all his hard work was for nothing.
I just pray and pray that Jack will see that collecting all that information has been very useful.
But Lois Gibson should have analyzed the head shots of Marguerite.
Briefly, the ears are the same, nose tip the same, distance between centers of eyes are the same...
Discrepancies in looks and height occurs with untreated thyroid problems,
which also accounts for coarsened features and a progressive loss of good sense.
All characteristic of Marguerite, of whom Lee said, "She's aging before her time", and we felt it was our fault.
The boys, the pressure of that...But it was probably her thyroid.
SOME MEDICAL SOURCES:
![[Image: o0w8lt.jpg]](http://i47.tinypic.com/o0w8lt.jpg)
Underactive Thyroid (Thyroid Disorders)
Here is a useful summary: thyroid
People can develop thinning and coarsening of the hair, dry skin, drooping eyelids, slowed speech, and facial swelling.
Other underactive thyroid symptoms...
Lippincott Williams & Wilkins - 2006 - Medical - 442 pages
Note coarsening facial features, such as the patient's nose, lips, and ears, ...
which can develop secondary to diabetic neuropathy or thyroid dysfunction.
On top of this, osteoporosis can cause a dramatic change in height.
None of these possibilities were mentioned, so far as I am aware, by Armstrong,
who only looks for support for his theory, not at all aspects, I'm afraid, as he mentions
height changes in a woman who clearly is no longer well, has hair loss, coarsened facial features,
and is even obviously walking with some difficulty, talking slowly, and so on...
I'll make their Marguerite observations as accurate as possible and will do my best to present everything fairly.
I am not out to 'prove' Armstrong 'wrong.' I'm out to PROVE that there may be reasonable explanations,
and also, that ears, nose, etc. in people are landmarks forensically that have been ignored in Marguerite's case.
Then we'll tackle Lee's Stripling school records, since Lee told me something about that. Dr. John Williams
learned about this and it definitely changed his whole outlook on a 'second Lee Harvey Oswald" attending Stripling.
You'll see what I mean shortly....
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 09-03-2010
James H. Fetzer Wrote:Judyth responds to Jack and Barb about photographs of "the two Marguerites":
A little ray of sun for these presently hard hours....Martha's family is now convinced from symptoms
reported that she did not die of the flu...and I just saw a summary of her last hour on earth and cried a lot more...
Meanwhile--Barb is quoting from the stolen book that the Dutch thieves sent to McAdams.
I had never had a chance to correct it.
When I later did, Barb, as she even dares to say, claims I changed my story.
This is so mean and trivial. God bless you all.
Soon I will show you what I have uncovered in the evidence about Marguerite,
using my medical knowledge.
I have Armstrong's photos where he divides the same woman in half to fit his theory.
Sadly, by coming against Armstrong, Jack White may feel all his hard work was for nothing.
I just pray and pray that Jack will see that collecting all that information has been very useful.
But Lois Gibson should have analyzed the head shots of Marguerite.
Briefly, the ears are the same, nose tip the same, distance between centers of eyes are the same...
Discrepancies in looks and height occurs with untreated thyroid problems,
which also accounts for coarsened features and a progressive loss of good sense.
All characteristic of Marguerite, of whom Lee said, "She's aging before her time", and we felt it was our fault.
The boys, the pressure of that...But it was probably her thyroid.
SOME MEDICAL SOURCES:
Underactive Thyroid (Thyroid Disorders)
Here is a useful summary: thyroid
People can develop thinning and coarsening of the hair, dry skin, drooping eyelids, slowed speech, and facial swelling.
Other underactive thyroid symptoms...
Lippincott Williams & Wilkins - 2006 - Medical - 442 pages
Note coarsening facial features, such as the patient's nose, lips, and ears, ...
which can develop secondary to diabetic neuropathy or thyroid dysfunction.
On top of this, osteoporosis can cause a dramatic change in height.
None of these possibilities were mentioned, so far as I am aware, by Armstrong,
who only looks for support for his theory, not at all aspects, I'm afraid, as he mentions
height changes in a woman who clearly is no longer well, has hair loss, coarsened facial features,
and is even obviously walking with some difficulty, talking slowly, and so on...
I'll make their Marguerite observations as accurate as possible and will do my best to present everything fairly.
I am not out to 'prove' Armstrong 'wrong.' I'm out to PROVE that there may be reasonable explanations,
and also, that ears, nose, etc. in people are landmarks forensically that have been ignored in Marguerite's case.
Then we'll tackle Lee's Stripling school records, since Lee told me something about that. Dr. John Williams
learned about this and it definitely changed his whole outlook on a 'second Lee Harvey Oswald" attending Stripling.
You'll see what I mean shortly....
This nonsense shows a total lack of understanding.
On the SAME DATE it is documented that ONE MARGUERITE
OSWALD worked at Paul's Shoe Store in Fort Worth while
Lee Harvey Oswald attended Stripling Junior High School.
On that SAME DATE it is documented that ANOTHER MARGUERITE
OSWALD worked at a hosiery store on Canal Street in New
Orleans while Lee Harvey Oswald attended Beauregard Junior
High School.
This information has NOTHING to do with photo analysis nor
forensic analysis as NONSENSICALLY stated above. Two LHOs,
two Marguerites, same date, different cities. That is as simple
an explanation as can be made.
Any other interpretation is NONSENSE!
Jack
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Phil Dragoo - 09-03-2010
I have Craig Roberts' Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza; Roberts worked with John Armstrong on The Dead Witnesses.
John Carman, on the White House Secret Service detail protecting Ford, later a decorated U.S. Customs Agent told me of the wall of dividers.
That Roberts said to Carman, "John can document his work with that."
I believe Armstrong is only criticized so vociferously by the likes of McAdams.
This attack on Armstrong may be this witness' bridge too far.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 09-03-2010
Judyth responds to Jack about "Harvey and Lee":
![[Image: v6oj1t.jpg]](http://i50.tinypic.com/v6oj1t.jpg)
Check this photo against attached photos....
![[Image: 1onh9w.jpg]](http://i49.tinypic.com/1onh9w.jpg)
![[Image: 4g5bfd.jpg]](http://i39.tinypic.com/4g5bfd.jpg)
![[Image: 2rpcr69.jpg]](http://i50.tinypic.com/2rpcr69.jpg)
Is there more than one 'Judyth'? The lab one is a giveaway, but check it against this:
![[Image: n3lsag.jpg]](http://i45.tinypic.com/n3lsag.jpg)
Would Jack White have decided that we were two--or even three?--different people?
I'll give you the answers to the photos after you look at all of them...The truth is easy to see......
Meanwhile...I am not allowed to download Jack's 'fat face' because I am not a member--they once
sent a collection of some forty photos and ordered, almost, rather than asked, me which ones were
Lee and which ones were Harvey.
This forces me to agree that there is a distinction that I accept.
I do not.
This is a logical trap.
"Which one did you know, Harvey or Lee?" is a rigged question. It assumes that some are "Harvey"
and some are "Lee" and, if I refuse to answer, I'm a cur.
But they are forcing me to make their logical differentiation.
I refuse to do so because they are forcing their logic based on how the arranged they photos.
You might ask (not Jack, who has seen my photos) an outsider--which ones are me and which are
an imposter?
It assumes an imposter.
And they assume an imposter that existed since childhood.
They are in error.
Please give me time to show it.
Do you understand why I just pointed out ones that I was sure were Lee? And by that, I meant
'Harvey' to them?
By stacking the deck with just two responses, they leave no room for discussion.
He's doing the same thing again, asking me which one it is, in the 'fat face'.
It is the wrong question.
It is not 'who did she know --Harvey? Or did she know Lee'?'
It is dangerous.
It is catching.
Above all, I have strong reasons to contend with it.
And will.
[NOTE: Having taught logic, critical thinking, and scientific reasoning for 35 years, I can confirm that
Judyth is on impeccable logical grounds in objecting that she is being presented with a conclusion to
which she should not assent. This is known as "the complex (or leading) question", which begs the
question (by taking for granted what needs to be proven on independent grounds). It is like asking,
"Have you stopped beating your wife?" or, perhaps, "Do you prefer to purchase the red Buick or the burgundy?"
You cannot answer "Yes" or "No" to the first questions without admitting you have beaten your wife or
"Red" or "Burgundy" to the second without acknowledging that you are going to buy a Buick. Likewise,
you cannot answer "Harvey" or "Lee" without granting that there were two Oswalds, Harvey and Lee.]
==Please tell Jack White that he forces me into a logical bind when he asks 'which' man I knew and loved.
He attempts to have me answer in his mode, that Lee was 'one' or the 'other' -- I refuse to respond to this
loaded question, which forces many errors into the big picture. Instead, I will present, one by one, my
arguments as to why the Armstrong thesis must be re-evaluated and in many aspects (not all, by any
means, since impersonators were frequent)--ultimately discarded.
Not a single bit of Armstrong's research and hard work--all those records he accumulated-- has actually
unearthed a single verified living member of this 'second Oswald's' family. Were they murdered afterwards?
Vanished forever? Maybe?
But there are better explanations.
One of the best is that Armstrong is wrong.
We have Donald Norton, who says he impersonated Oswald, He does not resemble either 'Lee' or 'Harvey',
however. Does Armstrong or Jack White assign him as 'Lee' or 'Harvey'? I refuse to pick out 'Harvey' or 'Lee'
as the person I knew and loved in New Orleans.
However, I promise to explain why, in the blogs.
Hopefully, we can get back to Lee Oswald, why he had to die, and why it matters, instead of mulling over photos that never,
unlike Abraham Bolden or Jim Douglass or Doug Horne or Jim Fetzer, actually brought us new information that jives together
and moves the case forward.
What it did, in a royal way, was to divert form the big picture.
These keep us going in circles.
Which one do 'you' think is 'Lee' and which one do 'you' think is 'Harvey'--shown this photo or that, Jim? Lola?
It's a trap.
Maybe unintentional, but the man never met me, ignored me.
His research cannot be trusted to be as thorough as Jack wishes us to believe.
There are gaping errors in logic. Including trying to force a witness to fall into the 'Lee' and 'Harvey' ID game.
[quote name='Karl Kinaski' post 'Mar 9 2010, 08:31 PM']
Quote:This nonsense shows a total lack of understanding.
On the SAME DATE it is documented that ONE MARGUERITE
OSWALD worked at Paul's Shoe Store in Fort Worth while
Lee Harvey Oswald attended Stripling Junior High School.
On that SAME DATE it is documented that ANOTHER MARGUERITE
OSWALD worked at a hosiery store on Canal Street in New
Orleans while another Lee Harvey Oswald attended Beauregard Junior
High School.
This information has NOTHING to do with photo analysis nor
forensic analysis nor medical analysis as NONSENSICALLY stated
above. Two LHOs, two Marguerites, same date, different cities.
That is as simple an explanation as can be made.
Any other interpretation is NONSENSE!
Read the book.
Jack
Jack. The game with identities is well known in that never ending murder
case. There were 4 to 6 Oswalds, (the Bolton-Ford Ossi, N.O, the Lincoln-
Mercury Ossi, Dallas, the Odio-Ossi, Dallas, the firering ranch Ossi, Dallas,
the mexico-city Ossi etc...), at last two JVBers, the Haslam-JVB, and the
real one, and maybe there where two moms of Ossi. Jim and Judyth just
say this, and I agree: there was no Oswald-CLON, which is, as far as I
understand, the main-idea of the Armstrong book...according to Prouty the
CIA started to create an Oswald 201 file in Dec 1960. One purpose of such
a file is to create parallel résumés of one person. It is flashy that the first
documented incident with a false Oswald occurred just a month later in
Oswald's Hometown N.O., on 20.1.1961, the day JFK was sworn into office.
I do not believe, there was any need or intention to play the game of
identities prior.
To me the Oswald-Clon theorie is worthless. I am happy with the well
documented appearances of Oswald-copycats. (Some of them looked
completely different!...mexico city Ossi... )
Since I am not familiar with the Armstrong book: did Armstrong explain,
why there was a need to create an Oswald-Clon well back in the fifties,
when Ike was president, and nobody on earth knew who would be the next
man in the O-Office?
PS The final proof of the JVBs Story, to me, was, when Haslam realized, in
2000 I think, that his monkey-virus story fit 100 percent with Judyths story.
Note: they never met before, (except this strange incident with that false
Judyth!) and they came out with their storys independently.
KK
[/quote]
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Jack White - 10-03-2010
All of the above is non-sequitur nonsense...sound and fury denoting nothing...
not worthy of consideration nor response.
Jack
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - James H. Fetzer - 10-03-2010
It gives me no pleasure to find myself on the opposite side from Jack,
but unless the evidence has established the separate existence of "the
two Oswalds", for anyone else, posing the question, "Which one is this,
Harvey or Lee?", is a leading or complex question that takes for granted
something that needs to be established on independent ground. Since
Judyth is not convinced that there were "two Oswalds"--and neither am
I nor is Karl Kinaski, whose rebuttal above I consider to be brilliant--for
Jack to be insisting that Judyth is committing some kind of blunder is
completely unjustified. Indeed, she has good reasons for skepticism on
this score, where she will return to this issue again and in greater detail.
Meanwhile . . .
From Judyth:
Jack White keeps repeating ad nauseum, that I have no information useful concerning the Kennedy assassination. I was the first person, my editors and Haslam and others believe, to link together everything happening in New Orleans and, indeed, to suggest that the plot to kill Kennedy may have been hatched there and moved to Dallas. Further--and this is important, Jim--the role of Dr. Ochsner and the hospitals involved in the case has NEVER been thoroughly investigated.
I will point out what so many note, with additional comment:
JACK RUBY AND PARKLAND
a) Jack Ruby was injected with cancer cells while in prison.
b) Ruby stood before x-ray machines for 45 minutes upon entering Parkland.
c) Medical neglect and medical abuse of Ruby took place at Parkland. (I can prove this, even though most researchers are unaware, but I worked an entire summer in a cancer research center observing how patients are SUPPOSED to be treated for cancer--where Ruby was all but executed at Parkland.)
And, most importantly, WHO TOOK CARE OF RUBY IN THE HOSPITAL? I KNOW.
Before we go further, witness Debbee Reynolds was assigned for me to hunt up all the medical records in the paper and elsewhere that she could. Her father, at the same time, was in the hospital, so she closed her home for a few weeks and left her home--which is in Garland outside of Dallas--and went to live with her mom so she could see her dad in the hospital.
At this same time, she spent hours in the Dallas library's JFK collection and spent time going through newspaper articles.
We thus found that the preponderance of physicians working with Ruby had BEEN BROUGHT IN FROM ANOTHER HOSPITAL.
This special 'team' made certain that Ruby would die of his injected cancer.
Over time, they tried to state that he died from 'an embolism' (blood clot) trying to avoid any mention of cancer, but Jack Ruby had told everyone who visited him in the hospital, not just Maddox and a few others, that he had been injected with cancer.
His statements were pooh-poohed even while he died of it.
![[Image: s309pl.jpg]](http://i41.tinypic.com/s309pl.jpg)
ALTON OCHSNER
The doctors brought in were largely from a sister hospital, M.D. Anderson, and most of them had ties to Dr. Alton Ochsner, who, by the way, was a member of the Eugenics Society. Ochsner's ties to Germany are strong--besides heritage, he interned in Germany.
Further, Ochsner knew Charles Thomas, my new witness, whom I mentioned had a German accent when he spoke English. Charles Thomas expedited Lee Oswald's 24-hour new passport, though the one turned in to for inspection was covered with Soviet Union stamps from Moscow (Russia) as well as Belarus (USSR).
Lee wrote plainly his intent on the new passport application his intention to travel to Cuba and to the USSR. Under no ordinary circumstances during the Cold war could anyone get a passport indicating these travel intentions, and to obtain the passport in 24 hours was necessary.
As for cover stories, a small article was placed in the newspaper a week or so in advance, saying passports were going to be speeded up in New Orleans and, along with Lee's, some dozen or so other passports were also hurried through the process in 24 hours. So was I told--and decades later, I found the newspaper article.
CHARLES THOMAS
Ochsner knew Thomas, former Customs Agent living in Miami and working at that time undercover for the CIA with anti-Castro Cubans and the mafia. I have photos from his family of Cubans with whom he worked, as well as mafia members, one of whom I was able to identify as being inside a LOOK Magazine expose of the mafia.
Ochsner, in other words, probably brought Charles Thomas in from Miami to expedite the passport so that Lee Oswald would feel comfortable with the operation--in fact, he was proud and therefore introduced me to Thomas--- but this would make it all the easier for Lee Oswald to believe that, when he went to Mexico City, he had all this cooperation.
When Lee was betrayed in Mexico City--and he bitterly realized that he had been used, even made to go to Mexico City, at the very least--where his actions to try to get the bioweapon into Cuba were blocked, but not until a record was made that he had been to the Cuban diplomats there....
And that he would then seem to be truly pro-Castro, a set-up he later realized worked against him in Dallas when he was invited into the assassination ring. He knew then that he was going to die. To his everlasting credit, he didn't run. Had he done so, his family and I would not be alive today.
Please carefully read what I write next
RUTH PAINE
Originally, Marina was going to have her baby in a different hospital, but Ruth Paine had her switched over to Parkland Hospital.
Now everyone there who might have interest saw what Lee Oswald looked like, for he went there to see his newborn baby on Monday afternoon there after work. I have already told you--or maybe my research team at Trine day--that Ruth Paine manipulated it so he could not be with his wife when she delivered her baby.
Much about Ruth Paine remains uninvestigated, especially unsigned typed material she claims Lee Oswald wrote and other things found in her garage, that implicated him, which have unknown true origins.
M.D. ANDERSON
Ochsner trained many Parkland doctors and M.D. Anderson’s, as well.
I believe the bioweapon was used on Jack Ruby at Parkland.
I know M.D. Anderson had the bioweapon because Lee got a handoff--fresh bioweapon materials--from M.D. Anderson on his way to Mexico City. And he did take a bus from Houston to Mexico.
It is material such as this that is missing from the book because it 'slows the story down' and adds so many pages that the average reader gets entirely bogged down....And it means very little to the average reader. The book is intended to portray Lee Oswald, not covert operations. It is by no means representing everything I know.
The 'big book' by Livingstone was severely limited because Livingstone and I fought about how much of a role the CIA played. Livingstone believes they were not directly involved and therefore called me a 'bitch' for arguing with him about it. Instead of respecting my information as a witness, he preferred to not even mention some of my beliefs in the book.
And your expert friend will possibly say that my beliefs are not important, either. Nevertheless, they come from long thought and from personal knowledge of what Lee and I went through in New Orleans.
So I give this to you.
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Bernice Moore - 10-03-2010
Dawn Meredith Wrote:Austin Kelley Wrote:Is she for real? I've never quite been sure.
I'm not so much questioning whether she knew Ochsner, Oswald, Ferrie et al.but whether the bulk of her story checks out.
I'd appreciate feedback from those who are more well-studied on these issues than I...
I have had a fair amount of contact with her and found her to be credible. She certainly has suffered and has been treated badly in the critical community. I remember several years back there was a video made that could substantiate many of her claims. Debra Conway of Lancer was involved, but then Conway allegedly refused to give Judyth the video. This was in 04 and it went on for sometime, not sure how it was resolved, if ever.
Jack may know way more about her, obviously his opinion is his right, but for the life of me I cannot fathom WHY she would make all this up. I saw Ed Haslam speak this past year at COPA and he devoted his time to demonstrating that Judyth is who and what she says she is. I got his book but have yet to read it...PLan to get hers as well.
Dawn
Dawn that i believe would be the Anna Lewis tape debra CONWAY DID HAND IT OVER, I BELIEVE WIM STILL SELLS COPIES. I HAVE ALSO SEEN IT ON THE WEB HAVE A GOOGLE IT MAY COME UP...B
DAWN HERE IT IS AT WIM'S http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/judyth.htm:flybye:B:girl:
Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile - Magda Hassan - 10-03-2010
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2140352666545542746# Is this the one?