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Robert Vinson - Peter Lemkin - 22-01-2011
Dawn Meredith Wrote:When I was reading this particular passage a couple of years ago it so reminded me of Tosh's story. So I sent en email to both Tosh and Peter L. asking them if there was a connection, their opinion etc. Neither replied.
Dawn, I remember discussing it some and mentioning I had asked Tosh's take. I really thought I had provided mine to you...if not here goes the 'short verion' [the long version may be part of a book sometime]......There are three stories of a flight OUT of Dallas, taking mechanics or players. All three differ and all three have overlapping portions. All three indicate CIA plane and all mention the exact same type of plane. The three stories, I won't detail, but can be found easily. They are:
1 - The 'Vinson' story landing near the river just after the big events, and taking away an Oswald look-alike or an Oswald...and silence being induced afterwards.
2 - The Tosh Plumlee story of a flight in the morning of at Garland [north of Dallas], offloading a wood crate on-loaded in New Orleans and several operatives, including one that resembled TUM and one that was Col. Roselli of the Mafia and CIA. The plane then moved to RedBird [in Oak Cliff] and left after waiting for what some on board thought was an Oswald who never came. It was also supposed to meet up maybe with Ferrie, but didn't. It went back to Florida from whence it had come. Silence was imposed on Tosh via Prison in Colorado. I've left out portions of each of the above and the third to follow.
3 -The story as told by Wayne January to Matt Smith in his books, for example starting on p. 137 on in Conspiracy. Many, many parts of this version coincide nearly with Tosh's. Some parts do not and in this version Tosh seems absent. January was so frightened by being told in the morning the events about to unfold at noon, he kept his mouth shut for fear of death or harm for decades. However, Tosh mentioned to me the name Wayne January well before Smith ever contacted him or anyone. Thus Tosh either really was there and interacting with January or had been told the details by someone who had been......at the moment Tosh is not working to reconcile these three accounts. He complains that asking him is tantamount to telling him what he did and remembers...which it is not.
I could go on for several hundred pages on this whole part of the saga. To summarize, I think [at this point] all three are speaking about the same event - like the blind men and the elephant. Some disinformation might to must be involved - for while there is overlap; each has mutually exclusive events that don't allow details of the other. I'm most convinced by 3 - January's account, but think that EACH has some nuggets to offer or ponder. Now, could there have been more than one flight? Yes. If anyone has specific questions or wants to get 'into' this Gordian Knot, I'll try my best....
Robert Vinson - Charles Drago - 22-01-2011
Doppelgangers -- or, in this case, triple gangers (?!) -- appear throughout our study. Why should the airplane E&E tale be any different?
Robert Vinson - Peter Lemkin - 22-01-2011
Charles Drago Wrote:Doppelgangers -- or, in this case, triple gangers (?!) -- appear throughout our study. Why should the airplane E&E tale be any different?
Charles, I'm tired at the moment and perhaps had one glass too much wine..so will make this short. It is NO different; however, I believe there is both an attempt to obscure what actually went on [to state the totally obvious] and yet in a careful analysis of the three and what documented evidence/ reliable accounts exists [some does!] an approximation toward [if not OF] what actually happened [AND what did NOT] can be made...much using the 'negative template'. More later.
Robert Vinson - Albert Doyle - 22-01-2011
I always wonder what a simple lie detector test would prove with some of these peripheral claims like Vinson's?
Robert Vinson - Peter Lemkin - 22-01-2011
Albert Doyle Wrote:I always wonder what a simple lie detector test would prove with some of these peripheral claims like Vinson's?
They are not known to be very reliable and most [even low level] intel agents are taught how to 'fake' the results. [and I could, under duress, be made to admit that I witnessed someone guilty of something fool a 'lie detector' with my own eyes!] That said, I think the 'Vinson' story didn't take place near the river, but did LIKELY take place at Red Bird....whether Vinson was there is a whole other matter....all three stories are to [IMO] rebrand as unrecognizable/untraceable/muddy-the-waters of a REAL event that happened to ex-filtrate operatives [it could have been more than one flight] - and as CD pointed out make several trails where there should only be one....and the 'several' may only contain portions of the one or two REAL trails - the rest being invented and re-invented ad nauseum.
Robert Vinson - Drew Phipps - 02-07-2014
This is an old thread, I know, but I just ran across Robert Vinson's story and watched the videos. He cetainly struck me as a credible speaker. However, the devil is in the details, as is said. He does have some errors in the details.
He says he went to Washington DC on Wednesday, 11/19/63. (That date is actually a Tuesday.)
He says he boarded a C-54 (with CIA markings?) at Arlington AFB 11/22/63 and took off between 8:30 AM and 9:00 AM heading west for Denver. At 12:29 the pilot announced that JFK had been shot. (Oops, JFK was shot after 12:30. Bad news travels fast.)
The plane then made a "180" degree turn left and headed south. He is gently corrected by his attorney to "90" degrees left. (funny that an Air Force guy wouldn't know that, but a turn to 180 degrees is directly south. After 3.5 - 4 hours at the cruising speed of a C-54 (190 mph) the plane would have been approaching St. Louis, and a 45 degree turn left at most would have been required to head to Dallas from there. It would have taken the plane 2 more hours flying directly west to reach a spot mostly "north" from Dallas, too late to be contemporaneous with the shooting.)
The plane flew to Dallas and landed in the Trinity River bed (near Oak Cliff), on a road under construction. He could see water and trees to the north. (I have been unable to definitively identify this road, but from the description it sounds like it could be Sargent Road. It is the only place south of the river, close to Oak Cliff, with a straight enough stretch of riverbed, without intervening bridges, for a (southbound) C-54 to land. I don't know when the road was finished, but the riverbed park "Sargent Park" opened in 1971 with an address on "Sargent Road".)
Oswald (or a lookalike) and a husky Cuban left a yellow construction-type Jeep (driven by a third party) and boarded the plane which took off without refueling. (It's 600 miles from St Louis to Dallas, at 190 mph, 3.2 hours or now about 3:45 PM. The "real" Oswald was arrested by then.)
They landed at a mysterious destination (which turned out to be Roswell AFB) at "dusk" and Oswald, the Cuban, and the flight crew of 2 deplaned and disappeared. The base was on lockdown. Vinson was left on his own. (It's 450 miles from Dallas to Roswell, which at 190 mph is a flight time of 2.4 hours, bringing us to at least 6:15 PM (and probably much later after allowing for taxiing twice, turning around, takeoff, and 2 landings. Sunset in Roswell NM on Nov 22 is right at 5:00 PM. It's not dusk, its night-time by then. To make the trip in 4.5 hours you'd have to average 240 mph which is about 90% the maximum speed of the aircraft. That would certainly be a memorable experience but Vinson doesn't mention any rough flight details.)
So Vinson's story, as interesting as it is, fails on some critical details. Some of those failings might be related to age or passage of time. He was also allegedly stationed at Area 51 for a period of time. (He might have flying saucer tales to tell as well?) He appears sincere, but I would be careful accepting his tale without more.
Robert Vinson - Lauren Johnson - 03-07-2014
Here are my tentative thoughts:
1) 12:29 vs. 12: 30 Close enough.
2) I looked at a straight flight path from DC to Denver, which was the original destination in Google Earth. The route would be over northern Kansas. Picking the closest spot from northern Kansas and measuring to Dallas using the Google Earth measuring tool yields something in the order of 460 or so miles. Assuming they had the pedal to the metal, they could have made the it to the south Trinity area in the two hours as described.
3) Flying to Roswell, remember, chasing the sunset at let's say 240 mph would add daylight to the allotted flight time. According to JFKU, he lands "a little after dusk." (p.300)
I think his story is still in play.
Robert Vinson - Albert Doyle - 03-07-2014
None of that refutes Vinson. CIA would burn the engines off a plane during a coup without even thinking about it.
The Vinson story is black comedy because the CIA guys on the flight thought Vinson was a CIA monitor and shut up.
Don't forget Vinson had career problems after the event.
Robert Vinson - Peter Lemkin - 03-07-2014
You should read his authorized book called 'Flight From Dallas'. In it he includes enough proof for me that he actually did work at Area 51. I've read the book, never seen the videos, but would imagine these minor apparent discrepancies are due to age and passage of time - as well as nervousness about what he witnessed. If nothing else, in a fair world [which we don't have] someone should be able to check if Roswell was on alert/lockdown that day at that time....such records should exist [if classified] and/or other witnesses remember. That alone would go a long way to making his story more believable. The flightlog of that plane may have once existed - though likely obscured; or now after his telling, destroyed. I see little logic in his inventing this tale at his age and with the consequences he always feared. The only reason to invent such that makes sense is to be part of a cover-up of other real exfiltration flight[s] - either way they need to be investigated [officially NONE were!!! - even the Soutre being kicked out of USA just after Dallas or the few possible mechanics stopped leaving Dallas in cars, and other means of travel, never were!!]. The fact that Plumlee's, January's and Vinson's stories all relate to persons involved in the events of Dallas being exfiltrated by plane(s) some hours after the shooting were NOT investigated makes me smell more of a rat with the investigations than with those who told this. By the way, Plumlee was asked about his flight [among other things related to his tale of events of Dallas] by Kerry's subcommittee in secret session - the questions and answers are classified and have not been released. I had this confirmed to me in person and some detail by a very high level individual in Kerry's office, long ago. So, under penalty of perjury he said a lot about this all...would be interesting to know what, and should be released under JFK Act, but, sadly, is likely officially exempt. January's sworn affidavit is available. The WC, HSCA, and Church all had been informed of at least two of these 'tellings' - but didn't see 'fit' to even examine them, as far as can be discerned.
I wish we had a Chinese monkey image of covering of eyes, ears, mouth - as I'd place it here, now.
Drew Phipps Wrote:This is an old thread, I know, but I just ran across Robert Vinson's story and watched the videos. He certainly struck me as a credible speaker. However, the devil is in the details, as is said. He does have some errors in the details.
He says he went to Washington DC on Wednesday, 11/19/63. (That date is actually a Tuesday.)
He says he boarded a C-54 (with CIA markings?) at Arlington AFB 11/22/63 and took off between 8:30 AM and 9:00 AM heading west for Denver. At 12:29 the pilot announced that JFK had been shot. (Oops, JFK was shot after 12:30. Bad news travels fast.)
The plane then made a "180" degree turn left and headed south. He is gently corrected by his attorney to "90" degrees left. (funny that an Air Force guy wouldn't know that, but a turn to 180 degrees is directly south. After 3.5 - 4 hours at the cruising speed of a C-54 (190 mph) the plane would have been approaching St. Louis, and a 45 degree turn left at most would have been required to head to Dallas from there. It would have taken the plane 2 more hours flying directly west to reach a spot mostly "north" from Dallas, too late to be contemporaneous with the shooting.)
The plane flew to Dallas and landed in the Trinity River bed (near Oak Cliff), on a road under construction. He could see water and trees to the north. (I have been unable to definitively identify this road, but from the description it sounds like it could be Sargent Road. It is the only place south of the river, close to Oak Cliff, with a straight enough stretch of riverbed, without intervening bridges, for a (southbound) C-54 to land. I don't know when the road was finished, but the riverbed park "Sargent Park" opened in 1971 with an address on "Sargent Road".)
Oswald (or a lookalike) and a husky Cuban left a yellow construction-type Jeep (driven by a third party) and boarded the plane which took off without refueling. (It's 600 miles from St Louis to Dallas, at 190 mph, 3.2 hours or now about 3:45 PM. The "real" Oswald was arrested by then.)
They landed at a mysterious destination (which turned out to be Roswell AFB) at "dusk" and Oswald, the Cuban, and the flight crew of 2 deplaned and disappeared. The base was on lockdown. Vinson was left on his own. (It's 450 miles from Dallas to Roswell, which at 190 mph is a flight time of 2.4 hours, bringing us to at least 6:15 PM (and probably much later after allowing for taxiing twice, turning around, takeoff, and 2 landings. Sunset in Roswell NM on Nov 22 is right at 5:00 PM. It's not dusk, its night-time by then. To make the trip in 4.5 hours you'd have to average 240 mph which is about 90% the maximum speed of the aircraft. That would certainly be a memorable experience but Vinson doesn't mention any rough flight details.)
So Vinson's story, as interesting as it is, fails on some critical details. Some of those failings might be related to age or passage of time. He was also allegedly stationed at Area 51 for a period of time. (He might have flying saucer tales to tell as well?) He appears sincere, but I would be careful accepting his tale without more.
Robert Vinson - Drew Phipps - 03-07-2014
I find January and the Red Bird Airport incidents more believable. I must confess I did not allow for time zones in my calculations, so upon further mathematics it is possible. However.
It seems entirely unlikely that a pilot (even from the CIA) would receive some sort of confirmation over the radio about a fact of the Kennedy assassination so quickly. Most of the reporters at the scene didn't know there had been a shooting for a few minutes. At any rate, the timing for Vinson is still a problem. Is he resetting his watch for time zones as he flies around, or is his watch on Eastern time? He did have a meeting with a congressman in Eastern time. I don't know of many people who reset their watches as they fly.
12:30 was the Central Standard time of the assassination. (1:30 PM EST, 11:30 AM MST.) Neither his departure nor his destination is on Central Standard time. If our intrepid traveler had set his watch for mountain time as soon as he departs, then 12:29 PM MST is a reasonable amount of time for the pilot to learn of the news and receive new orders. In addition, that places the plane somewhere over Kansas, which is more or less a 90 degree turn. From there its roughly 400 miles to Dallas (2 hours) then landing, turn around, takeoff, and off to Roswell 450 miles or about 2.4 hours. That puts in to Roswell shortly after 5:00 MST which does match the dusk time. So it is possible.
However, if Vinson's watch had been set on MST the whole time (with Washington meetings and departure times in MST) it isn't going to work. The two hour time difference he gains by travelling west is necessary for his story to be true.