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+--- Thread: Did Harvey return from Russia? (/thread-3442.html)
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Jack White - 29-03-2010
JVB has made several postings scoffing at the notion of a FALSE DEFECTOR PROGRAM, and that
Harvey was a part of it.
James J. Angleton of the CIA was in charge of the defector program. He also managed the Nosenko
affair, in which a Russian "defector" defected to the US, coming to tell that THE KGB HAD NO
OPERATIONAL INTEREST in the defector "Lee Harvey Oswald" (when all indications are that they
were immediately aware of the "false defector" and placed him under full time surveillance and perhaps
more). The HSCA was extremely interested in Nosenko.
At the time of Nosenko's defection, the CIA split into 2 factions...pro-Nosenko and anti-Nosenko. Angleton
believed that Nosenko himself was a false defector, and had him placed in solitary confinement for
several years where he underwent "enhanced interrogation" to "break him". Nosenko could have
potentially exposed Angleton's program, and Angleton wanted to know whether the KGB had substituted
a doppelganger for his false defector. The KGB's Nosenko operation put them in the position of "protesting
too much" to distance the Soviet Union from the assassination.
The question was WHETHER THE LHO WHO RETURNED FROM RUSSIA WAS THE SAME ONE
WHO DEFECTED. Either way, it does NOT materially affect the Harvey and Lee story, but adds an EXTRA
dimension. Either way, it is the one point on which I do not fully agree with Armstrong. I have always
believed that the LHO who returned from Russia was NOT the same LHO who defected. I have always
believed that the Soviets replaced the original defector with one of their own. There is much evidence
to support this. John decided NOT to include this possibility (though he was aware of it) in his book for
several reasons:
1. There was NO documentation for the KGB doing this. John wrote nothing without documentation.
2. A whole book would be needed devoted only to this portion, and he did not have space or time.
3. Even if the original defector was replaced by the KGB, it does not negate the Lee & Harvey documentation;
it only means that someone else was substituted for the original Harvey.
4. It would complicate the story of the original false defector by adding that a false defector had been
replaced by a "double agent"...so was he working for the CIA or the KGB? Since no documentation exists,
this would make the story impossible to tell without speculation and years more of research. He decided
to put his book to bed with only what he could DOCUMENT, with no distracting speculation. I agreed
with his decision...though we both recognized that there perhaps was much more to the story. On the
same grounds, he decided not to do a chapter on Donald O. Norton...because it involved speculation
which, though documented, was not proof. He threw out at least a year of research for lack of TWO SOURCES
of documentation.
If the KGB was interested enough in the false defection to send Nosenko to say that the Soviets were
not interested in LHO, this aspect of the defection is worthy of investigation.
In this thread I will attempt to document some of the evidence that the LHO in Russia was not the same
one who defected. However, this does not mean that the original defector was not the same one who
returned. It is a very confusing story which is unlikely to be conclusive. There are NO records of
what the KGB did concerning LHO's time in Minsk.
I will start with the Ziger sisters. Their father was head of the radio factory in Minsk where LHO
worked. Mr. Ziger acted as an overseer of LHO, and he visited the Ziger home frequently, becoming
well acquainted with Mr. and Mrs. Ziger and their two daughters. John Armstrong tracked down
the Ziger sisters, by then living in Argentina. John flew to Argentina to interview them about their
remembrances of LHO. Since they spoke only Russian and Spanish, he hired an interpreter to
help with the interview. He found many interesting things, but perhaps the most interesting was
that the LHO that they knew was VERY SHORT, perhaps about 5'2"! This was very puzzling since
the defector was 5'9" and LHO was once listed in Marine records as 5'11". A photo of the Zigers
with "Lee" shows a very short person. There are other conflicting photos. The possibility exists
that the KGB furnished or tampered with ALL photos of the Russian period. John decided that
he could not depend solely on the word of the Ziger sisters, since no other documentation supported
their stories. He decided correctly that he could not depend solely on photos of dubious provenance
to back up the story told by the sisters. So all of the information provided by the Zigers is not in the book.
I will start with a clipping which John obtained from the Ziger sisters in an Argentina newspaper.
I will follow with other photos from the Russian period which strongly suggest that the LHO
who was in Russia was neither Harvey or Lee.
Jack
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Jack White - 29-03-2010
Backing up the claim of the Ziger sisters:
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Jack White - 29-03-2010
From the Mary Ferrell website:
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Magda Hassan - 29-03-2010
Neither of those two photos look much like the person we know as LHO. Have either of the original photos been seen by a researcher or just from the newspaper pictures?
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Jack White - 29-03-2010
Magda Hassan Wrote:Neither of those two photos look much like the person we know as LHO. Have either of the original photos been seen by a researcher or just from the newspaper pictures?
Some are from the WC volumes, others from publications.
Some "originals" can be seen at the national archives.
Jack
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Phil Dragoo - 29-03-2010
Neither photo looks like the Oswald in New Orleans, or in Dallas. In fact, the two photos do not look like each other.
The Angleton abuse of Nosenko (in which I believe Helms participated his denials to the contrary notwithstanding) I always took to be suppression of evidence destructive to the CIA false flag attempt.
That is, the CIA put Nosenko in the brick prison for three years to protect their construct that the assassination was a Soviet-Cuban operation.
That this may have evolved into a "lone nut" act doesn't change the ruse used by Johnson to enlist the Commission members, all that mumbo jumbo about forty million Americans killed in the first thirty minutes.
As to determining who returned--didn't someone fingerprint the returnee and compare it to the record of the Marine.
To me it's always been beyond peradventure of doubt that Lee was part of the penetration program. What's novel here is the suggestion that KGB would not simply try to turn him, but to replace him.
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Magda Hassan - 29-03-2010
Phil Dragoo Wrote:Neither photo looks like the Oswald in New Orleans, or in Dallas. In fact, the two photos do not look like each other.What about the other 'defectors' who returned ? Has any one done followup research in this area?
The Angleton abuse of Nosenko (in which I believe Helms participated his denials to the contrary notwithstanding) I always took to be suppression of evidence destructive to the CIA false flag attempt.
That is, the CIA put Nosenko in the brick prison for three years to protect their construct that the assassination was a Soviet-Cuban operation.
That this may have evolved into a "lone nut" act doesn't change the ruse used by Johnson to enlist the Commission members, all that mumbo jumbo about forty million Americans killed in the first thirty minutes.
As to determining who returned--didn't someone fingerprint the returnee and compare it to the record of the Marine.
To me it's always been beyond peradventure of doubt that Lee was part of the penetration program. What's novel here is the suggestion that KGB would not simply try to turn him, but to replace him.
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Jack White - 29-03-2010
Phil Dragoo Wrote:Neither photo looks like the Oswald in New Orleans, or in Dallas. In fact, the two photos do not look like each other.
The Angleton abuse of Nosenko (in which I believe Helms participated his denials to the contrary notwithstanding) I always took to be suppression of evidence destructive to the CIA false flag attempt.
That is, the CIA put Nosenko in the brick prison for three years to protect their construct that the assassination was a Soviet-Cuban operation.
That this may have evolved into a "lone nut" act doesn't change the ruse used by Johnson to enlist the Commission members, all that mumbo jumbo about forty million Americans killed in the first thirty minutes.
As to determining who returned--didn't someone fingerprint the returnee and compare it to the record of the Marine.
To me it's always been beyond peradventure of doubt that Lee was part of the penetration program. What's novel here is the suggestion that KGB would not simply try to turn him, but to replace him.
Thanks for your comments, Phil.
Note that I am not saying that the KGB replaced him. There may be
various faked records and photos for some reason.
But there is much that I will post which shows to any reasonable
person that the LHO in Minsk was not the defector nor the
original LHO.
Jack
Did Harvey return from Russia? - Jack White - 29-03-2010
This photo shows the alleged defector (Harvey) in Minsk standing next to Marina, TOE TO TOE.
Marina is about 5'2". The LHO defector was either 5'9" or 5'!!" according to Marine records.
Clearly the man in this photo is barely 4" taller than Marina...not nearly tall enough to be the
defector. He also does not look like either Lee or Harvey. I (and others) have done accurate
studies demonstrating the height discrepancies.
Jack
Did Harvey return from Russia? - John Kowalski - 29-03-2010
What about the other 'defectors' who returned ? Has any one done followup research in this area?[/QUOTE]
Magda:
Gary Hill has three very interesting articles published in the Fourth Decade which is available on Merry Ferrell. The stories discusses Oswald, Webster (one of the false defectors who defected around the same time as Oswald) false defectors and MK-Ultra. The articles provide some background on Webster and some information about him after he returned to the US. See Volume 2, issue 5, Volume 2, issue 6 and Volume 5 issue 6.
A letter from Hugh S. Cummings of the Department of State to Richard Bissell of the CIA regarding a list of American "defectors" for the period 1959 to 1960 is available on Mary Ferrell. You may also be able to download an attachment to this letter that has a short biography of each defector, including Webster and Oswald.
John