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+--- Thread: Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? (/thread-5051.html)
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 21-07-2015
Drew Phipps Wrote:Dallas PD's inventory ( this site but not this page )
http://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth338767/m1/21/?q=inventory
lists an "application for driver's license" among Oswald's possessions at the Beckley boarding house.
Interesting inventory, Drew. Thanks!
Since this list is presented in alphabetical order, and includes such items as the Warrior stamp kit, it appears to be based on the FBI/DPD expanded list of "Oswald's possessions" dated 11/26/63 and appearing in CE 2003. I don't see how the Dallas cops could have missed the stamp kit when they produced the inventory lists and initialed and photographed everything on the night of 11/22.
It's an odd document. It must have been a lot of work to take a pocket-sized notebook and type in the alphabetized expanded list on a hundred or so pages. Why would anyone do it that way?
I was curious and sent the link to John A and asked for his comments. He said that copies of the notebook, done two facing pages at a time and considerably less clear, are at the National Archives and he included the copies in his collection at Baylor, but these are much clearer. UNT says the source of the notebook is "unknown," but it is clearly in the DPD collection. Thanks again.
P.S. Like so many other items in the expanded FBI/DPD list of 11/26, the Warrior stamp kit is NOT initialed to any Dallas cop. And yet Rose said in his HSCA interview, initially about the Minox camera:
Moriarity: But you did initial it.
Rose: Stowall and I both. I put GFR and he put his initials, RS Stowall. Then all the property was initialed, including the paper property, letters, pictures, and all the property, we did initial it. It took several hours to iniitial all of it.
It's a strange document, and deserves some study.
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 22-07-2015
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 22-07-2015
Parker caved on the Driver's License. He's all sass and no substance. His claims of H&L being dead have nothing behind them.
While offering a classic aggressive response that abandons his driver's license application claim, Parker applauds his flexibility as a researcher by admitting he's willing to change theories.
Meanwhile he offers nothing as a new position. By doing this he forfeits his credibility because the only remaining option is that the TDPS employees saw a Driver's License that had been used and worn. This means someone was using a Driver's License with Oswald's name on it. The only reasonable explanation would be the Oswald double many people saw prior to the assassination was using this license. The authorities illegally buried this evidence because it exposed the H&L evidence.
Parker's challenge of H&L is bogus, as is the poll. Polls don't supersede evidence. This also makes the Landesberg incident more credible.
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 23-07-2015
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 23-07-2015
The H&L attackers shouldn't be let off the hook with the Driver's License. The main attacker said the Driver's License issue wasn't important anyway. That person just doesn't want to admit their challenge of Armstrong blew-up on them and there isn't anything behind their boasts that they have debunked Armstrong.
Any credible or honest researcher would admit that once all the excuses are discredited that therefore it is reasonable to assume the 6 Texas Department of Public Safety employees who saw the Driver's License saw a Driver's License and that it possessed Lee Harvey Oswald's name. If this witnessing wasn't proof enough FBI's disappearing of the Driver's License is.
This evidence is very important because it shows that a worn Driver's License with Oswald's name was used by someone. It makes sense that the numerous sightings of a driving Oswald almost certainly were of a person possessing a Driver's License since it would be unlikely such a person would be driving around without one. So instead of being unimportant this is now a very important validation of Armstrong and strong evidence towards the validity of his theory.
The H&L attackers want you to move on from the Driver's License issue because it totally discredits their denial and they don't want to admit it. They shouldn't be let off the hook because this one case shows how uncredible they are and how much they are begging to be taken seriously when their input shows they are basically clowns in contempt of the evidence and have nothing to say when backed in to a corner by the real evidence Armstrong shows. It's rather dishonest to refer to a poll when you are so publicly unable to answer obvious evidence.
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 23-07-2015
The drivers license issue is good, but we need to remember that six other TDPS witnesses were only named by Aletha Frair in her Garrison affidavit. I haven't seen any evidence that these half-dozen people were individually interviewed. There is a report from one of Garrison's staff that a call was put into TDPS and the staffer got the opinion that the Texas office wasn't interested in cooperating with the Garrison probe.
I just don't have it in me to keep hammering away at someone after a point has been made, Albert. If you want to do so, you should set up an account at the Hot Mess and go after them. You make many excellent arguments.
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 23-07-2015
You can't let them get away with their excuses. In the main blowhard's case once you eliminate the application you then have to account for what it was. Instead of doing that, like any credible researcher would, he says it isn't important. You can't let him get away with that. You have to force him to do the follow-through.
I find it dishonest that some people allow an obvious blowhard tabloid-type researcher to get away with that.
Quote:There is a report from one of Garrison's staff that a call was put into TDPS and the staffer got the opinion that the Texas office wasn't interested in cooperating with the Garrison probe.
A good example that American bureaucracies work more towards fascist compliance than democratic fidelity.
.
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - David Josephs - 23-07-2015
Quote:This is the reply from Greg re: DoD and Blakey - admitting that there is too much evidence showing the DoD to be liars here - while then giving me a "well what about..." question... I thought th answer covered it pretty well
There is too much counter evidence for him going. I will adopt your position regarding the FBI. It is a lie and a cover-up. But not for any doppelganger program. They just didn't want anyone digging around what was really happening in SEA at the time. As I have already said, I cover what was happening in my next volume.
Now how about you address Bernieritia Smith's testimony regarding the tooth and about little Bobby Newman (who was the person Myra was convinced by Armstrong was really "Harvey") - and explain why she was ignored by Armstrong.
After you've done that, I have a whole raft of other stuff you've so far avoided addressing.
The USMC records put him both in Taiwan and Atsugi at the same time.
The records show events that occurred both in Taiwan and Atsugi at the SAME TIME to the same Oswald #1653230.
The DoD lies about his never leaving in the face of his being in Ping Tung and proveably so.
How many times do we need to hear "in the next volume" when you can't even bother to post a tidbit so you dont sound like your pulling it out of your arsenal. Bottom line: two men, two places, same name and # according to the USMC.
Not possible unless there are two Lee Harvey Oswalds merged into one record.
--------------
Mr. JENNER. But you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right?
Mr. VOEBEL. Yes; I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out.
Page 92 H&L
Oswald's aunt, Lillian Murret, remembered this event well. She told the Warren
Commission, "They were coming out of school at 3 o'clock, and there were boys in
back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, 'Lee,' and when he turned
around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip,
so she (Marguerite Oswald) had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and
I paid for the dentist bill myself ..... "
Mrs. SMITH. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was this boy--he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.
Mr. LIEBELER. Through the upper part of his lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was a bottom----
Mr. LIEBELER. But it actually tore the lip?
Mrs. SMITH. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember--what is that boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so well?
Mr. LIEBELER. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel?
Mrs. SMITH. That is him.
Mr. LIEBELER. V-o-e-b-e-l?
Reading thru H&L I find "broken front tooth" and "missing front tooth" and all in relation to the larger LEE OSWALD. When Myra was shown this photo she stated this was not the HARVEY she knew.
When shown the Bronx zoo photo, she recognized Harvey.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10407#relPageId=427&tab=page is the link to the man corroborating that this was a photo taken by Voebel at BJHS.
The photo does indeed appear as if the tooth is missing... and that there is no scarring or bandages related to running a tooth THRU the lip...
Since we do not have records of the dentist he was taken to, all we can go by is the witness testimony and this photo. The middle two teeth are usually out and grow back between 6 and 8 years old.
Can you PROVE the tooth did not get knocked out or, like us, only can go by what was said. It appears just as lilkely it was knocked out given this photo, than running thru his lip...
The POINT that you completely butcher is that MYRA sees this and knows it is not the Harvey Oswald she knew. If the tooth was not knocked out, this photo is strange, no?
Whether the man in the coffin was the southern born 5'11" 150lb LEE or 5'9" 135lb HARVEY remains a debate and would not be concluded simply because of the tooth in question here.
The photo does seem to be worth a 1000 words though... as for the whole rash of stuff you have... most has been covered already here...
Seems to me your admitting there were two Oswald's in the records and the DoD lied about the one never leaving does not change the situation from 2 to 1 person.
Donovan stating he was with Oswald in Taiwan at the same time Lee is getting medical treatment does not seem to be something you can refute...
Will you be offering your explanation backed by evidence, or you just accepting that the Evidence shows two men with one record?
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 29-07-2015
Harveyand Lee
Commissionmembers doubt their conclusions
After leavingoffice, the man who created the Warren Commission, President LyndonJohnson, expressed doubts about the Commission's conclusion for theremain der of his life. On one occasion he told Presidential aideMarvin Watson that he was convinced there was a plot in connectionwith the assassination and "felt the CIA had something to dowith the plot."[SUP]Nov 24-33[/SUP]Commissionmembers doubt their conclusions
On January 27, 1964,less than 2 months after the Warren Commission was created, SenatorRichard Russell said, "They (the FBI) have tried the case andreached a verdict on every count." Three weeks later Russellwrote a two-page letter of resignation to Lyndon Johnson, which thePresident refused to accept.
In 1964 the New Yorktimes quoted Chief Justice Earl Warren who said, "Fulldisclosure was not possible for reasons of national security"(Warren's statement was originally made to Dallas Morning Newsreporter Clint Richmond at Love Field, the day Warren arrived inDallas to interview Jack Ruby).
On September 16,1964 Senator Richard Russell disagreed with the Commission'sconclusion of "no conspiracy" and wrote a dissentingstatement. He said the insufficiency of the evidence gathered againstOswald precluded the conclusive determination that Oswald and Oswaldalone, without the knowledge, encouragement or insistance of anyother person, planned and perpetrated the assassination. Russellinsisted that his statement be published in the 26 Volumes, and wasextremely annoyed to learn it was not included. In an interview withW SB-TV in February 1970, less than a year before his death, Russellcontinued to voice doubts about the Warren Report.
In January 1967,columnist Drew Pearson told Earl Warren about a conspiratorial leadinvolving CIA-Mafia assassination plots. Warren, instead of standingby the Commission's conclusions, referred the information to SecretService Director James J. Rowley. He then said, " ..... hethought this was serious enough ..... and that the Warren Commissionwas finished."
W.C. member HaleBoggs (D-L A), in a letter to JFK researcher Harold Weisberg, wrote,"We have not been told the truth about Oswald." By 1971Boggs was reportedly preparing to make a public statement that saidRichard Nixon was complicit in the assassination of PresidentKennedy. Thirty days before Nixon was re-elected esident Boggs andAlaska Senator Nick Begich vanished when their small planedisappeared in the Alaska wilderness during a routine flight fromAnchorage to Juneau. W.C. member John I. McCloy (former President ofthe International Bank for Reconstruction and Development) told theHSCA in 1978, "I no longer feel we had no credible evidence orreliable evidence in regard to a conspiracy ..... "
W.C. member SenatorJohn Sherman Cooper (R-KY ) never agreed with the "single bullettheory," upon which the Commission based it's conclusion of "noconspiracy," and expressed doubts to fellow members. The twoCommission members who remained committed to the conclusions of theWarren Report, not surprisingly, were former CIA Director AllenDulles, and Gerald Ford (R-MI), a man described by Newsweek the"CIA's best friend in Congress." It is little wonder thatthe Warren Report has failed to withstand the test of time, as eventhe majority of Commission members didn't believe it.
J.Edgar Hoover's investigation
After the WarrenCommission was formed, and evidence of "two Oswald's"continued to mount, Hoover had to control and limit the FBI'sinvestigation into Oswald's background. He began on the afternoon ofthe assassination, by issuing instrucyions for SA James Hosty not toattend any more of Oswald's interrogation sessions and not to conductany investigation into Oswalds background. T he following morning FBIagents were dispatched to Stripling Junior High in Fort Worth toobtain Oswald's school records, to the Pfisterer Dental Lab in NewOrleans to obtain Oswald's employment records, the Texas Departmentof Public Safety in Austin to obtain Oswald's drivers lcense file,and other locations to secure sensitive information which threatenedto expose the two Oswald's.
Hoover received muchneeded assistance on limiting the investigation intom Oswald'sbackground when Allen Dulles was appointed to the Warren Commission.Dulles acted as the Warren Commission's contact with the CIA, andworked directly for his his close friend Jim Angleton and hisdeputy, Ray Rocca, from the Counterintelligence section. W hen theWarren Commission requested information from the CIA, it was Dulleswho reviewed and approved the few insignificant CIA documents thatwere finally shown to Commission members. And it was Dulles who metsecretly with Angleton to help prepare answers to questions that hethought the Commission might ask CIA Director John McCone and RichardHelms. [SUP]Nov24-34[/SUP]
As Director of theFBI, and the investigative arm of the Warren Commission, Hoover hadthe power to decide which documents and evidence were sent to theCommission. As William Sullivan told the HSCA, "If there weredocuments that possibly he didn't want to come to the light of thepublic, then those documents no longer exist, and the truth willnever be known." Sullivans comments explain the disappearance ofOswalds original school records, employment records, tax returns,records from Klein s Sporting Goods, the US Post Office, FBIinterviews of people whose statements placed Oswald in two locationsat the same time, the names of FBI informants who knew and associatedwith Harvey Oswald in New Orleans, etc. It also explains why the FBIfailed to provide a list of Oswalds childhood friends to the WarrenCommission, which prompted staff member John Hart Ely to write, "Onceagain let me urge that we should not have to rely upon Life MaWJzinefor such a list. The FBI should un dertake a systematic investigationand interview of Oswalds closest school friends. " [SUP]Nov24-35[/SUP]
NOTE: Ely apparently investigated Oswalds background toowell, which caused Albert
Jenner to write, "There are details in Mr. Ely s memorandawhich will require material
alteration and, in some instances, omission." [SUP]Nov 24-32[/SUP]
Sullivan also toldthe HSCA, "When an enormous organization like the FBI withtremendous power still can sit back and shuffle the deck of cards andpick up the card they want to show you it may be you're not going toget the entire picture as fully as you [SUP]Nov 24-36[/SUP]
This simply meansthat the FBI gave the Warren Commission onlythose records whichhelped to frame Oswald or show that he was capable of assassinatingthe President. Records which suggested there were two Oswalds(Stripling Junior High records, Pfisterer employment records in1957-58, FBI interviews of Marines who served with Harvey Oswald inMemphis or Taiwan, medical records, FBI reports of Lee Oswald in theUS from 1959-1962, etc., FBI reports of people who came in contactwith Lee Oswald in the weeks and days preceding the assassination,etc.), were suppressed or destroyed. would otherwise."
NOTE: In 1975 Warren Commission co-counsel Burt W. Griffinsaid, "All of the records
were in the hands of the two agencies (FBI and CIA) and, if theyso desired, any infor*
mation or files could have been destroyed or laundered prior tothe time the Commission
could get them. "45 In addition to manipulating physicalevidence, witness testimony, and FBI reports, the Bureau convincedthe Warren Commission to accept [SUP]Nov 24-37[/SUP]
This gave the FBIthe opportunity to alter original evidence, such as Oswalds schooltranscripts, the Minox camera, photographs in lieu of physicalevidence. 962Klein s Sporting Goods records, etc., and provide theCommission with photographs, while the original evidence disappeared.The FBI was also able to convince the Warren Commission to allow FBIagents and officials to review. and correct. Transcripts of theirtestimony before the Commission Nov 24-38 The "correcting"of James Cadigan s testimony resulted in concealing the fact thatOswalds possessions were secretly sent to the FBI on November 23,1963, without an inventory,and then returned to the Dallas Policeafter numerous items had been altered. modified. Substituted. oradded to the evidence. Sion.
Researchers havespeculated for years that the FBI covered up, distorted, andfabricated evidence and testimony of witnesses in an attempt to frameOswald and now we have the proof! With the abundance of fabricatedevidence 'that has surfaced, there is little doubt that such amassive cover-up could have occurred without the knowledge and activeparticipation of j. Edgar Hoover. In fact, Hoover was one of the fewpeople in the world who understood and grasped the significance of"Lee Harvey Oswald's"
participation in theassassination, and the involvement of his CIA sponsors.
I we Decker Exhibit5323.
2 WC Exhibit 2013;FBI interview ofVernon Glossup, 11/24/63.
3 WC testimony ofForrest V. Sorrels, 13 H 62.
4 WC Frazier Exhibit5086; FBI interview ofW.B. Frazier by SA George W.H. Carlsonm12/6/63.
5 WC Exhibit 2002;letter from William B. Frazier to Jesse Curry, 12/6/63.
6 WC Smart Exhibit5021.
7 we Exhibit 2002.
8 WC Smith Exhibit5317; FBI interview of John A. Smith by SA Robley D. Madland,12/4/63.
9 WC Exhibit 2002;letter from C.C. Wallace to Jesse Curry, 12/18/63.
1 0 WC Report p.629, Memorandum from Inspector Kelley to Chief, Secret Service,11129/63.
II Ibid.
12 WC Exhibit 2003p. 138C; WC Report, p. 609.
13 WC Report, p.635, Memorandum of interview by Harry Holmes, 12/17/63.
14 WC Report, p.630.
15 Ibid. at 609.
16 WC Exhibit 2003p. 138C; WC Report, p. 609.
17 WC Report, p.634, Memorandum of interview by Harry Holmes, 12/17/63.
18 WC testimony ofHarry Holmes, 7 H 299.
19 WC testimony ofJim Leavelle, 7 H 267-268.
20 NationalArchives, USPS 169-10001-10143, Headquarters Files 157807-CC, USPSmemo H.B. Montague to SI&I, 12/2/63.
21 WC Report, p.633, Memorandum of interview by Harry Holmes, 12/17/63.
22 WC testimony ofJim Leavelle, 7 H 269.
23 Summers, p. 98.
.
24 WC Report, p.630, Memorandum from Inspector Kelley to Chief, US Secret Service,11/29/63 ..
25 NationalArchives, HSCA 180-10103-10379, Numbered Files 013438, HSCA interviewof George Butler, 5/11/78.
26 NationalArchives, HSCA 180-10089-10078, Numbered Files 001056, Notes ofRonald Dugger, by Andrew Purdy, 3/28/77.
27 Sneed, p. 488.
28 WC Wilcox Exhibit3016.
29 CE 2003, p. 327.
30 WC DanielsExhibit 5325.
31 Seth Kantor, p.56.
32 AR 157.
33 AR 158.
34 WC BieberdorfExhibit 5123.
35 WC Document 735,pp. 410-411. FBI interview of Dr. Earl Rose by SA Arthur Carter andManning Clements, 2/25/64.
36 WC Document 1066,p. 388, FBI interview of Dr. Earl Rose by SA Robert Gemberling,5/20/64.
37 "TheExhumation and Identification of Lee Harvey Oswald", Journal ofForensic Science, January 1984.
38 WC testimony ofForrest Sorrels, 13 H 70.
39 WC memorandumfrom Leon Hubert and Burt Griffin to J. Lee Rankin, 5114/64, pp. 3-4.
40 WC Report, p.345.
41 HSCA, Volume 5,p. 325.
42 AP story-9:22 pm,6/27/98, by Angela Charlton quoting Feklisov on Russian Television.
43 Wall StreetJournal, 10118/93, A16.
44 LBJ-transcriptsof telephone conversation at 16:55, 11129/63.
45 HoustonChronicle, 9/
Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Bart Kamp - 29-07-2015
My reply is only regarding the pic and its enlargement, sorry to piss in the H&L pool but this looks an even worse retouch job than the back of the head of our main man in the Z film.
Tne 'hole' even extends over the edge of his bottom lip.
Without a sharper version I reckon this to be a fake.