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Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Printable Version

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Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 16-09-2015

Albert Doyle Wrote:It makes perfect sense that Baker didn't mention the lunch-room encounter because he had the problem of seeing the same person twice within a short period.

It seems likely that Baker would consider other possibilities for the two sightings instead of considering them the same man, though I doubt an Intelligence operation involving doubles would immediately be one of them <g>.

If this did happen the way you speculate, do you think Truly vouched for both Oswalds? If so, that sure seals his guilt. Truly's affidavit, signed on the 23rd, just refers to the second floor encounter.

I mentioned your theory to John A. late last night, and he said that with only a few seconds to think about it, his first thoughts were that you might be right. He said the timing issue for Truly, Baker and Mrs. Reid was critical, but since everything occurred in mere seconds, its hard to pin down. Then he talked about Roy Truly.

John said setting up Harvey as the patsy took months of work, and there was no other known candidate for the patsy role in Dallas at the time. So Harvey was critical. He had to be at the right place at the right time. And so someone had to keep an eye on him, at the TSBD, at North Beckley, at Ruth Paine's. John thought the candidates for watching Harvey at the Book Depository were Frazier, Shelly, and Truly, and he thinks Truly was the guy for a number of reasons, including the fact that he hired Harvey. John wonders if the phone call from Ruth Paine to Truly ever really happened. (He said the call from the Paine residence to the TSBD was technically long-distance, and that therefore billing records would exist for it, but the Warren Commission never sought them.)

Albert--I've been on vacation some the last few weeks and may have missed your main description of this theory. I looked back in this thread and didn't see it. Can you point me in the direction of it?


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 16-09-2015

Jim Hargrove Wrote:It seems likely that Baker would consider other possibilities for the two sightings instead of considering them the same man, though I doubt an Intelligence operation involving doubles would immediately be one of them <g>.




The scenario is Baker is rushing to possibly encounter a presidential assassin. His witnessing of two Oswalds happens in the process of quickly eliminating suspects on the way to the upper floors. He listens to Truly and moves on quickly. The fact the man on the 4th floor landing was identical to the man in the lunch-room is secondary and exists in his mind behind the first need to find the shooter. He doesn't reconcile this until he gets back to the police station where Baker himself may have been clued to Oswald's spook status. It doesn't really matter when it clicked with Baker. All that matters is when it came time to record the event he omitted the lunch-room Oswald and preferred the anonymous man on the 4th floor landing, in effect covering up CIA operative Oswald. I say a plausible incentive for doing this gross violation of the record was his first hand awareness of seeing two identical men within a few floors of each other. I think Baker would be smart enough to realize the man who was getting special treatment at the police station was not an identical twin. Besides, it is also common police procedure to not reveal unique evidence until it is resolved.

Meanwhile, in real time, and at the same time Baker was eliminating one Oswald, there was another Oswald double encounter witnessed by Roger Craig. There was also a double encounter at the Texas Theater witnessed by Bernard Haire and captured on Stringfellow's report. It's not like this Baker event was an isolated thing.



Jim Hargrove Wrote:If this did happen the way you speculate, do you think Truly vouched for both Oswalds? If so, that sure seals his guilt. Truly's affidavit, signed on the 23rd, just refers to the second floor encounter.




That's the obvious question isn't it? The key to this is why Truly didn't identify the innocuous employee seen walking away from the 4th floor landing? This man was in a prime spot for fleeing from the Sniper's Nest. It doesn't make sense that there would be no police or Commission interest in this person or any attempt to identify him.

I believe the reason Harvey stayed in character in the police station is because he was given some kind of promise that this would all be sorted out and he would be exonerated by being seen in the lunch-room. Harvey was probably a disciplined behind the iron-curtain spook and wouldn't break cover anyway.


One thing is certain. Both Truly and Baker must have known there was no way for the Oswald seen in the lunch-room to get out ahead of them and be coming down to the 4th floor from above in their quick dash up the only set of stairs. Again, Baker had to be aware there was a problem. If Truly was a cooperating handler it would make sense that he would not name the second Oswald. It could even be Truly who informed Baker of the CIA jurisdiction controlling what he had just witnessed. This would completely explain Baker's actions.





Jim Hargrove Wrote:I mentioned your theory to John A. late last night, and he said that with only a few seconds to think about it, his first thoughts were that you might be right. He said the timing issue for Truly, Baker and Mrs. Reid was critical, but since everything occurred in mere seconds, its hard to pin down. Then he talked about Roy Truly.



Unlike certain thuggish trolls, Mr Armstrong is a highly intelligent man who recognizes signs of covert intrigue when he sees it.





Jim Hargrove Wrote:Albert--I've been on vacation some the last few weeks and may have missed your main description of this theory. I looked back in this thread and didn't see it. Can you point me in the direction of it?



This is it right here. It makes sense to me. Doubters would have to explain the two Oswalds seen leaving the Depository or the strange lack of identification of the man on the 4th floor landing. If it was a regular employee why did they shut-up about it? Why did the Commission not pursue a man in a perfect position for a fleeing assassin?


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 16-09-2015

No doubt we should first consider more mundane explanations for the discrepancies. Here's what the W.C. Report says about Baker's encounter:
Baker testified that he entered the lobby of the building and "spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was ... and this man, Mr. Truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, 'I am a building manager. Follow me, officer, and I will show you.'" 330 Baker and building superintendent Roy Truly went through a second set of doors 331 and stopped at a swinging door where Baker bumped into Truly's back.332 They went through the swinging door and continued at "a good trot" to the northwest corner of the floor where Truly hoped to find one of the two freight elevators.
Page 150
This page reproduces COMMISSION EXHIBIT No. 1118: Texas School Book Depository Diagram of Second Floor Showing Route of Oswald
Page 151
(See Commission Exhibit No. 1061, p. 148.) Neither elevator was there.333 Truly pushed the button for the west elevator which operates automatically if the gate is closed.334 He shouted twice, "Turn loose the elevator."335 When the elevator failed to come, Baker said, "let's take the stairs," and he followed Truly up the stairway, which is to the west of the elevator.336
The stairway is located in the northwest corner of the Depository Building. The stairs from one floor to the next are "L-shaped," with both legs of the "L" approximately the same length. Because the stairway itself is enclosed, neither Baker nor Truly could see anything on the second-floor hallway until they reached the landing at the top of the stairs.337 On the second-floor landing there is a small open area with a door at the east end. This door leads into a small vestibule, and another door leads from the vestibule into the second-floor lunchroom.338 (See Commission Exhibit No. 1118, p. 150.) The lunchroom door is usually open, but the first door is kept shut by a closing mechanism on the door.339 This vestibule door is solid except for a small glass window in the upper part of the door.340 As Baker reached the second floor, he was about 20 feet from the vestibule door.341 He intended to continue around to his left toward the stairway going up but through the window in the door he caught a fleeting glimpse of a man walking in the vestibule toward the lunchroom.342
Since the vestibule door is only a few feet from the lunchroom door,343 the man must have entered the vestibule only a second or two before Baker arrived at the top of the stairwell. Yet he must have entered the vestibule door before Truly reached the top of the stairwell, since Truly did not see him.344 If the man had passed from the vestibule into the lunchroom, Baker could not have seen him. Baker said:
He [Truly] had already started around the bend to come to the next elevator going up, I was coming out this one on the second floor, and I don't know, I was kind of sweeping this area as I come up, I was looking from right to left and as I got to this door here I caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse ... and it looked to me like he was going away from me.
° ° ° ° ° ° °
I can't say whether he had gone on through that door [the lunchroom door] or not. All I did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time.345
With his revolver drawn, Baker opened the vestibule door and ran into the vestibule. He saw a man walking away from him in the lunchroom. Baker stopped at the door of the lunchroom and commanded, "Come here."346 The man turned and walked back toward Baker.347 He had been proceeding toward the rear of the lunchroom.348 Along a side wall of the lunchroom was a soft drink rending machine,349 but at that time the man had nothing in his hands.350
Page 152
Meanwhile, Truly had run up several steps toward the third floor. Missing Baker, he came back to find the officer in the doorway to the lunchroom facing Lee Harvey Oswald.351 Baker turned to Truly and said, "Do you know this man, does he work here?"352 Truly replied, "Yes."353 Baker stated later that the man did not seem to be out of breath; he seemed calm. "He never did say a word or nothing. In fact, he didn't change his expression one bit." 352 Truly said of Oswald: "He didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. He might have been a bit startled, like I might have. been if somebody confronted me. But I cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face." 355 Truly thought that the officer's gun at that time appeared to be almost touching the middle portion of Oswald's body. Truly also noted at this time that Oswald's hands were empty. 356



My understanding of the TSBD floor plan is that entering the building in the back (on Houston St.) you're on what is referred to as the 1st floor, though some people would probably consider it the basement. Entering from the Main Entrance on Elm, you are actually on what is referred to as the 2nd floor. Since Baker parked his bike at the NW corner of Houston and Elm, it seems that he would most likely have entered the building through the Main Entrance on Elm, which would put him immediately on the 2nd floor (the floor with the lunchroom.) But the WCR makes it sound as if he climbed a flight of stairs to get to the second floor, suggesting he walked a block out of his way to enter through the lower Houston St. entrance at the back of the building. Perhpas this is where some confusion--or subterfuge--began, because it is critical to establishing whether or not Baker had to walk up ANY stairs in order to encounter Oswald on the 2nd floor.


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 16-09-2015

I don't see what point you're making Jim. It makes no difference since we still have a different man on a different floor wearing different clothes.


I'm confused. I looked at Google images of the Depository 1st floor and it shows the entry portal off of Elm Street as being on the 1st floor:




https://www.google.com/search?q=Book+Depository+First+Floor+Diagram&biw=1253&bih=661&tbm=isch&imgil=9_OR7vYyEHaBWM%253A%253BOB3JHU9qNCKLSM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fjfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com%25252F2013_08_01_archive.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=9_OR7vYyEHaBWM%253A%252COB3JHU9qNCKLSM%252C_&usg=__0opBL82zXabudO8xguzl8gZBEv8%3D&ved=0CDoQyjdqFQoTCMmv3Na2_McCFdOJDQodlFgBdQ&ei=jtX5VcmwBNOTNpSxhagH#imgrc=9_OR7vYyEHaBWM%3A&usg=__0opBL82zXabudO8xguzl8gZBEv8%3D


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 17-09-2015

Just trying to be cautious about this....

I'll try to do a little more digging about the TSBD floor plan, but your points are well taken. I'd like to try to and anticipate all the arguments WC loyalists could use to explain the discrepancies.


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 17-09-2015

If that diagram I linked is correct you are wrong and Baker and Truly had to have come up the first flight of stairs in order to get to the lunch-room.


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 17-09-2015

I'm just trying to anticipate how critics will attempt to discredit your theory, and I'm not doing a good job explaining myself.

Assuming Baker entered the building from the rear entry on the first floor and began climbing the stairs, Truly's statement indicated that he (Baker) encountered Oswald on the second floor, while Baker identified the floor as the third or fourth. People arguing against your theory will say Baker merely miscounted the stairs he was climbing and thought he was on the third or fourth floor instead of the second.

An error like that strikes me as pretty unlikely, but that's probably what WC loyalists will say. With that hurdle crossed, then we're merely arguing about the clothes, which are complicated by the jacket.

OTOH, if Baker entered the building from the front, he was already on the second floor, making the descrepancies far more difficult to explain.


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Albert Doyle - 17-09-2015

Jim Hargrove Wrote:OTOH, if Baker entered the building from the front, he was already on the second floor, making the descrepancies far more difficult to explain.



I think it is safe to assume if Baker was seen running towards the front entrance and Lovelady said he saw Baker and Truly going in to the Depository that therefore Baker entered by the front entrance.


It's not believable that no one would speak up if this didn't happen.


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - Jim Hargrove - 18-09-2015

Albert Doyle Wrote:
Jim Hargrove Wrote:OTOH, if Baker entered the building from the front, he was already on the second floor, making the descrepancies far more difficult to explain.



I think it is safe to assume if Baker was seen running towards the front entrance and Lovelady said he saw Baker and Truly going in to the Depository that therefore Baker entered by the front entrance.


It's not believable that no one would speak up if this didn't happen.

You may be TOTALLY RIGHT, Albert.

I asked JA for some objections earlier, and he had NONE!


Anyone want to discuss HARVEY & LEE? - David Josephs - 24-09-2015

Hello everyone... ::trenchcoatspy::

I realized that Parker was using his multi-pronged attack on John as a means to get attention about his book which attempts to very poorly refute most of H&L. I've seen his work and checked his sources in the past... they invariably do not say what he claims they do. His first book did so poorly that by attacking John he could at least get some eyeballs. Kinda Pathetic really but then again anyone who has spent enough time with Parker knows... it takes weeks for the slime and that smell to wear-off.

In any case, one of his brown nosing minions - simply couldn't take the ribbing about he or Greg posting anything of substance rather than unsourced, faith-based belief's.

Rather than be a man and discuss his concerns, or ever show up prepared - he went crying to mommy moderator who I had been talking with on and off for some time. The moderator had to apologize to me for even though the minion had crossed the line with these personal and disgusting threats... I too was involved so I was banned from posting for 3 months.

The minion got very ugly with threats of hangin me from a tree, and wrote more threats involving his strange preoccupation with death and children.

As the mod wrote: "xxxxxx's statement breaches everything that this forum stands for."

----------------------

As for my work at CTKA... There are 6 parts of the Mexico work completed with a 7th on hold as I re-evaluate the entire 300 pages of work and begin the process of converting it into a book.

Part 7 was the continuation of the timeline approach started in Part 6 yet I truly needed to step back and reevaluate my Mexico presentational strategy. I still believe I'm the only one to see the association between 2nd in command at Gobernation - Lawyer Rafael OCHOA - who had the hotel registry, the bus tickets, the manifests, FM-11 master files of travelers,... all of the Mexican evidence related to Oswald came from this one man.

He confirms the Bogus Transporte Frontera manifest as well as adding his own notes for clarity on the FM-11 which details all the comings and goins across the border.

Mexico City Trip: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, Part 5, Part 6

"The Evidence IS the Conspiracy" The Klein's Rifle: Part 1; Appendix: Money Order Timeline is my most recent piece and shows how, where, who and when the Money Order was created.

Part 2, The BYP Evidence should be up shortly and will hopefully add another dimension to Jeff Carter's great work.

I am working on finishing the analysis of the Pistol evidence which is amazing. No less than 4 different people claim to have retained possession of the pistol within the DPD that afternoon.

Like the other Evidence IS the Conspiracy articles... we seem to always find at least 2 different stories for the same exact activities.... In that vein the articles I have planned are:

WCD298 - the key to the film and photo alterations
The Two Sets of Tramps
A deeper look at Parkland versus Bethesda wound Evidence
What Happened at Andrews and who was in Charge at Bethesda
Harvey and Lee - the irrefutible evidence of conspiracy
TEXTRON and Bell Helicopter - a glimpse at the Sponsors of the Assassination


And just for fun let me show you the last Parker attempt at refuting H&L... this is the level of craziness we deal with ...

Parker claims the boy in the CAP photo with Ferrie is entirely too small to be Lee who as we know, in 7th and 8th grade was 5'4" and 115lbs... he was a BIG 6th/7th grade - which of couse means he must be a big 10th grader.

Anyway... Image #1 was posted and the claim was "Look at how small Ozzie is"

I explained DEPTH OF FIELD and until we knew the focal length and lens mm and distance none of the images in that image can be compared to each other... That Ozzie wa small becasue he was farthest from the camera

Image #2, with the circle and my overlay, was Parker's post stating "See, Oswald is not that far back at all - he is even with the other boys". I had to put the overlay on to show how Parker manipulated the image by skewing it so that Ozzie grew and all the others grow as they get farther from Ferrie who is the anchor of the image.

To prove it I also created an image where everyone is closer to each other's height and location in the photo...

Image #3 is another attempt to explain Depth of Field. By copying and pasting Oswald from his location in the photo to right next to Ferrie - along with photos we know were Lee it was not hard to refute these same riduculous claims Parker has tried in every area of H&L.

Finally, in Image #4 I move Ferrie to Oswald's area of the photo to appear as if he's 7 feet tall.

This is the level of work and attention to detail we get from Parker and his ROKC minions at every turn. It's exhausting having to keep up with refuting this junk science. But it is getting him eyeballs - hopefully readers will check the sources carefully if they read the work.

I want to also thank all of you who have sent kind words about my work and my trials/tribulations with the ROKC clan. If there any other topics you'd like to see addressed within the Evidence IS the Conspiracy framework please feel free to PM me or hit me up within a thread...

DJ

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