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+--- Thread: Saint Fletcher the Obscure (/thread-5561.html)
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Paul Rigby - 01-02-2011
Seamus Coogan Wrote:You'd know about wastes of time Greg. Been looking down any storm drains...recently?
No, but I know a man who did:
Quote:"Garrison says Assassin Killed Kennedy from Sewer Manhole," New York Times, 11 December 1967, p.28
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Jim DiEugenio - 02-02-2011
This sounds like NYT hyperbole.
Garrison sent Steve Jaffe to Dallas to see if it was possible to do this.
Jaffe tried an experiment and said it was.
In no interview I saw with JG with any credible publication--which the NYT is not on this subject--did I see him say that this definitely happened.
BTW, I find it interesting that Sergio Arcacha Smith had maps of the sewer system in Dallas at his apartment, and was living there at the time.
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Greg Burnham - 02-02-2011
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:This sounds like NYT hyperbole.
Garrison sent Steve Jaffe to Dallas to see if it was possible to do this.
Jaffe tried an experiment and said it was.
In no interview I saw with JG with any credible publication--which the NYT is not on this subject--did I see him say that this definitely happened.
BTW, I find it interesting that Sergio Arcacha Smith had maps of the sewer system in Dallas at his apartment, and was living there at the time.
You are quite misinformed. Here is an audio link, in which you will hear Jim Garrison himself say that he believes that the .45 caliber bullet that was found on the south side of Elm Street originated from the storm sewer. He may not have exactly said he believed that shot killed Kennedy, but he did believe at least one shot was fired from that location.
He further says that the .45 caliber bullet was found among pieces of the president's head! He says that LBJ had to know that a .45 caliber bullet (which Garrison is implying may have killed Kennedy) was found among the bullets "that killed Kennedy"!
Seamus was ridiculing me for investigating the same evidence as was investigated by Garrison. I, too, have never claimed that a shot definitely originated therefrom, let alone was the kill shot. I do believe that it is not out of the question, though--and therefore, is worth investigating.
The portion in which Garrison speaks of the Storm Sewer possibility starts at approximately the 17:00 point on the counter: Jim Garrison Lecture
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Jim DiEugenio - 02-02-2011
What he says here Greg, as he always did when discussing these matters, is
"There appears", and "apparent shooting place" and "generally happened", and "would indicate".
In other words, he qualifies it in advance.
If you take a look at other places where he discusses this, he does not mention it at all.
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Greg Burnham - 02-02-2011
Jim DiEugenio Wrote:What he says here Greg, as he always did when discussing these matters, is
"There appears", and "apparent shooting place" and "generally happened", and "would indicate".
In other words, he qualifies it in advance.
If you take a look at other places where he discusses this, he does not mention it at all.
Splitting hairs here, but no matter. The fact remains, Seamus continues to make inappropriate snide remarks about my research as if even the idea that a researcher would explore the possibility of that location makes that researcher less credible. Unless he is holding Garrison to the same standard, he is being somewhat inconsistent, and his agenda rather transparent.
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Bernice Moore - 03-02-2011
Paul Rigby Wrote:Seamus Coogan Wrote:You'd know about wastes of time Greg. Been looking down any storm drains...recently?
No, but I know a man who did:
Quote:"Garrison says Assassin Killed Kennedy from Sewer Manhole," New York Times, 11 December 1967, p.28
hi paul; if you go back far enough, and right now i cannot say to whom or where, as it was lost info, in a crash, long time ago, but it was that until mark lane pointed out the shot, shots, from behind the fence, the first area that was looked at where the shot, shots came from was the sewer drain or drains......fwtw..b..PS it is in Lane's first book...
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Bernice Moore - 03-02-2011
Link to Jim Marrs comment about storm drain....
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread313169/pg1
and another by John Judge....
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/sewerShot.html
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Bernice Moore - 03-02-2011
From and old post i made at Rich's ; Jim Garrison, Penn Jones, Jack Brazil , Greg Burnham, Robert Harris, Thomas Wilson..John Judge, Jim Marrs, Don Roberdeau, have all done some work on the possibilites of a sewer, or and drain shooter....
There were three studies I believe on the possibility of a sewer shot, one coming from the Elm street location, re Tom Wilson based on the trajectory of one of the head wounds to the President.( Tom a former U.S. Steel scientist
Whose experiments, were completed and presented
years earlier, but never published'
..Another one from our own Greg Burham on the trajectory I believe, and as always the undefeatable, Penn Jones, whom along with a friend, made many trips through the sewer system of Dallas, one came out behind the DPD, that must have been interesting, he made the adventures many times.
The Penn ,Brazil studies, also included the possible North end drain above the overpass, on the knoll location ...as well as the Elm Street sewer...These were serious studies by serious men...Tom Wilson's studies and information have been lost to us since his death,though his information is now available in book form, his files have not been found, but one copy we know was given, in complete form to the HSCA, but if they still have such it is locked away..his testimony is also in that Committee's info on the web..seen below........ he is on TMWKK.."The Truth Shall Set You Free".....It was a presentation involving charts of mathematical calculations and color
slides of computer-processed images, his information is gone into in great detail on the film and is fascinating..
Quote : "The first was Tom Wilson - with 30 years experience using imaging and
photonics techniques in the steel industry. He has now applied these
techniques - along with computer enhancement - to examine again the
Zapruder film. What was revealed - using high resolution pixel imaging
and Fourier analysis - was nothing short of amazing. In the head shot
frame - for example - one could actually see, with Wilson's techniques-
the image of the bullet, inside JFK's skull and its *track* moving from
the FRONT to the REAR of the skull.
Undeniable high level, high quality
evidence that the shot did indeed come from the front - as we have been
maintaining all along. Showing the detailed imagery, Wilson himself
found his eyes welling with tears. One could sense his painful awareness
of the lies and distortions we've been fed all these years, co-mingling
with his frustration that up to now none of 'officialdom' has taken his
work seriously or at least tried to replicate it.
He also indicated that on going to Dealey Plaza and attempting to
reconstruct the placement of all key people, etc. he could not get
things to fit - with the motion of the bullet seen in his imagery.
However, on further inspection - and on locating a storm sewer cover at
the side of Elm St. - he found that the problem was solved and indeed
the shot could only have been made from that location (the fatal head
shot).
This was confirmed by Jack Brazil and a military team he put together in
1992, who found:
a) a man could easily fit inside the storm sewer drain and have an open
view onto Elm St. and a good shot at the motorcade.
b) the man could easily make his escape (in something like 20-23
minutes) by following out the storm sewer to the Trinity River - making
his way clear and free.
The scenes tracing the sewer escape route were sobering indeed - and
show that indeed, the killing could be carried out as a perfect crime,
with the perpetrators getting away scott free.
After the Brazil demo, Tom Wilson was seen again - now examining the
autopsy photos with his techniques and comparing them with the
photonic/pixel densities in the head of JFK as disclosed in the pristine
Mary Moorman photo (aimed toward the GK, JFK's head visible from the
rear).
His imaging analysis showed where genuine human tissue was located in
the autopsy film- by comparing it with pixel densities in the
pre-autopsy condition (as exposed from the Moorman film). What was
revealed was nothing less than startling: massive sections of 'fake'
material covering nearly the entire rear of JFK's head (Wilson referred
to it was Mortician's plaster). This same material was also used in the
front of the head, to cover the entrance wound there.
Wilson's fine work, and detailed analysis, showed also what many of us
have been saying all along - that the autopsy photos are indeed fakes.":jawdrop:
(posted on alt.conspiracy.jfk 11-22-96 by:
Daeron <stahlp@ix.netcom.com>)
********************
Testimony of Thomas Wilson
http://jfkassassination.net/arrb/index68.htm
Witnessess
http://jfkassassination.net/russ/wit.htm#u
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - Greg Burnham - 03-02-2011
Thanks Bernice. I remember the first time I went into the "pillbox" beneath the manhole cover on Elm. I am nearly 6 feet in height, but it wasn't uncomfortable. Sure a bit tight, but not too bad at all. The manhole cover was made of some type of heavy plastic material and was fairly easy to lift and remove. I did some experiments with Scott Myers who was on the street. We also went to the Trinity River where the sewer system eventually leads for escape. I remember that we had to go back there late that night for something. After we were done I was hungry. So we stopped at a small convenience (7-11 type) store right around the corner. I went in and asked if the attendants would mind microwaving a burger or hotdog for me. They said, "No problem" and they then proceeded to place 2 hotdogs in buns into the microwave but without removing the aluminum foil type of wrapping first! I tried to warn them about it, but they looked at me as though I had a third ear attached to the front of my face and proceeded to put the food in anyway as they laughed at my concern. They stopped laughing when the contents burst into flame and the window(s) of the microwave broke and "popped" out, expelling flaming chunks from within and catching fire to items that were on the counter! The plastic part of the exterior of the microwave was beginning to burn as well. Then, one of them brought water and was about to toss it into the microwave oven through the missing "window" while it was still running to put out the fire. Instead of verbally cautioning them against that (since it hadn't deterred them last time) I leaped over the counter to stop him and pulled the plug from the wall, grabbed the fire extinguisher and put out the fire that was rapidly spreading! Oh my God! After it was over they asked me if I wanted something else to eat (cold) as it would be "on the house" this time. I said, "No thanks, lost my appetite" -- and left. "Good times...good times!"
This past November I noticed that the manhole cover has been replaced with a very heavy metal cover that appeared to be welded down.
Saint Fletcher the Obscure - A.J. Blocker - 04-02-2011
Was Colonel F. Prouty ever reprimanded or prosecuted for revealing miliary secrets?
Was Daniel Ellsberg ever prosecuted for revealing military secrets?