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+--- Thread: The CIA and Joanides (/Thread-The-CIA-and-Joanides)
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The CIA and Joanides - Tosh Plumlee - 23-12-2008
Thi is background info on Joanides of which I posted some years ago. I thought you might like to have it because the CIA is about to release some of this information... names and etc.. When they do then you can compare that with what I wrote to the Education Forum, some years ago.., which went nowhere... I rarely post on forums anymore...
Members might be interested in this document that proves that George Joannides was at JMWAVE at the time of the assassination of JFK.
(...Following is an interesting document Jay Harrison sent me before he died. This documentment may have been posted before... however, I post it here for those who may have missed it or may be interested... I asked Jay for the "declassification" date but he did not respond. He said it was still classified at the time he got it... interesting in view of todays interest on Joannides...)
Attached image(s)
![[Image: post-7-1164021792.jpg]](http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/uploads/post-7-1164021792.jpg)
note:
The following is from previous postings of some years ago concerning Joanides and Cuban background information about secret operations and their code names.
......
note: in reference to questions asked me some years ago concerning Joannides and the CIA:
"...This is not anything new. In 1980 a complete CIA and FBI file on the DR, the M-26-7, Joanides, and a Mr. Howard were destroyed in a fire in Grant Colorado. Portions of these reports were not declassified at that time. Some of the Classified CIA and FBI files were lost in that fire. However, a few were saved and the Colorado CBI turned those burned records and documents over to the FBI. The FBI question me as to my having those Classified files, and wanted to know how I obtained them. I refused to answer and I told them I would by glad to tell a federal judge and I requested they take me before one. They did not.
In 1987 on a FOIA request, filed by me, a few of those pages from those reports were released by the FOIA request to the FBI. The pages had burned marks around the edges and within the body of the documents. (I posted one of these documents a few days ago. (now years ago) Letter to Thomas Downing; reference Robert Morrow ref: Education Forum)
When I joined this forum (The Education Forum) this subject matter did surface and I was called a liar by some as to the documentation of which I speak. As a result days of posting replies to those who accused me were spent in an attempt to get, what I thought was interesting information, to the research community. Its been about four years now and here we are again.
Also, those burned files and documents obtained from FOIA along with affidavits concerning Dallas Operations were turned over to Senator John Kerry and staff, as well as Senator Gary Hart as the investigations into The Iran/Contra and the Drug War were being investigated. (documented) At that point I was attacked by the IRS and I was shut down for over ten years... (documented)
I know all this means nothing now..., but this is to let anyone out there, who really cares about this matter, that this is old hat and has been tampered with and covered up for years. And those involved in its investigation have paid a dear price as to their freedoms to expose some of the events they were involved with or associated with concerning the DR, the M-26-7, Operative Howard, and Joanidis and those days of old.
I do not expect this thread to go anywhere, because some of you out there, and a few on this forum (The Education Forum)are bound by a control type nature, for whatever reason. They will see to it that this matter goes no further and the information concerning Joannides will die on the vine so to speak. And too, those who push for an investigation into this subject matter will be discredited.
As to the affidavits concerning Dallas and other documentation pertaining to the Iran/Contra, of which I turned over to Senator John Kerry and his investigators of 1986-91 were classified by the Kerry investigators, "Top Secret, Committee Sensitive" and will remain so, as I have been told, for fifty years.
My point: Information before the fact of this most recent interest on the subject matter was released by me and others as far back as the Church Committee of 1974 and at a later date, the Iran/Contra investigations of 1986-91....".
In reference to another question and post:
"... might have to revive my time line by a few months or so, but this is from memory.
The M-26-7 was formed in Mexico City about 1957 known as the Mexico/Arms Pack. (Joe Westbrook Rosales, Fureta Chomon and others I can not recall at the moment were the founders, I think) The Students from a Democratic Cuban operated from the University of Havana. At first there was no CIA involvement in those activities. This was Pro-Castro days. Castro was in the Mountains with about 80 or so rebels and was known to the CIA as Castro's Jul 26 revolution.
Soon the Students of the University were caught by Batista and some were jailed and some were executed. The group was splintered and most went with Castro's July 26th Movement. Just before the M26-7 disbanded and threw in with Castro and hs revolution, the CIA step in and planted operatives within that group, the M26-7. Some of these operatives merged in with Castro's rebels and reported back to the CIA at Miami's Wave Station. (not JM/WAVE; it had not been formed as yet; and too, it was not known as Miami Station as yet) Operative Howard out of Washington DC was the POC (Point of Contact from this group of operatives) William Morgan who was with the Castro rebels was one of the CIA operatives who reported back, via cut-outs, back to CIA HDQ's Covert Action Group, (CAG)
That was the first time I was aware of "Howard" which some years later I found out was Joannides. However, he would not become of interest until the early sixties after the DR and the Fair Play organizations and Oswald came on the scene.
This is a rough background as recall from memory. However, it is documented and If the CIA does release their files we can all read about how the CIA supported Batista, The M26-7 as well as Castro's July 26th Revolution, all at the same time.
I'm sure some will take issue with this rough recap of just one operation, which ran about six years. None the less it is my viewpoint and I think if the documents are released they will support this recap and other matters to some degree. All of the above is perhaps still classified. But I do not think my memory is "Classified". I have not released any documents to this effect and my seven years is long over on these matters. I'm not sure if any of this early background helps you in anyway...., but I thought it might. I think Harry Dean might have matters he could add, as to the early sixties material..., but I do not speak for Harry...".
End of Education Forum postings.
note: I have been ask many times: Why are you still alive in view of others who are now dead who played this CIA game?
Well my answer is simple. I released the names, dates, and background information before the fact. (some years before the fact. exp The Church Committee and a few Senators.., G Hart for one) Some operations were not even known about at the time I released the details. It was only years later when the information became public that my rambblings were proven. It would be considered strange if anything happened to me in view of the subject matter I was talking about and documenting. I have a lot of this information sealed and if something did go wrong then this sealed information would be released publicly by my attornies. Billy Sol Estes and others have also done this in order to protect their lives... and in my case esp concerning the Drug Way of 1978-86. One reference in those sealed documents is an unpublished manuscript: (to be published upon my death) Tittled
Deep Cover Shallow Graves... forty years of covert CIA and MI classified operations.... before and after JFK.
Why have these documts not been released by the CIA?
"... To release these buried documents would:
(1) Compromise Methods and Procedures.
(2) The true identities of CIA operatives and case officers associated with Joannides would be revealed: example...
Fravel Brown; William Kent; Jerry Droller; Lado Fernandez; Johnny Smith: "Lionel"; HL Hunt; Paul Lee; Larry Allen; Mc Cord; Sergio Jaun Capistro; Juan Diaz; Pablo Duran; "Zapata", Rex Beardsley, Robert Bennett; and a host of other "unknowns" and the many operations they were associated with.
I have recently been told by a reliable Pentagon "Source" that this information has been, "FORCED" to the surface and the CIA has no choice but to comply as to the documents relating to the above agents and operatives. ...".
(the above information is now documented Information released before the fact, as to the release dates of the CIA's classified documentation)
Question from Rosen to Jeff Morley:
"...
QUOTE(Steve Rosen @ Mar 2 2008, 02:26 AM)
![[Image: post_snapback.gif]](http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/style_images/1/post_snapback.gif)
(5) What is your expectation or sense of what the CIA will come up with regarding Joannides on the scheduled April 30 hearing?
I think we'll get something and hope it is of interest. We may get stonewalled.
We will get an explanation of the missing 17 monthly progress reports on the DRE/AMSPELL program during Joannides handling of the group, whether they exist or whether they have been destroyed.
We will get some sense of the size of the Joannides' operational file.
We might get some declassified documents out of the file. Those could be important or trivial.
We'll learn if there are any Joannides records in the 1,100 JFK records that have been classified until 2017.
I hope for more clarity on the Phillips-Joannides relationship and Joannides' movements in 1963. If Joannides travelled to New Orleans in the summer of 1963, that would be newsworthy....".
From this point on 9 Feb of 2003 thru March of 08) there was no direct reply to any of the Plumlee postings even tho most of the information was referenced and documented.
The CIA and Joanides - Peter Lemkin - 24-12-2008
Tosh, Was this the fire at your house?! I assume so. Can you detail what you remember the documents about Howard / Joanides were about? Care to tell the Forum about the fire? [I know you told me several times]. The Company is fighting and kicking - determined not to release anything on him - wonder why?... Head of psyops at JM/WAVE and related matters. Hmmmmmm.....
The CIA and Joanides - David Guyatt - 24-12-2008
Thanks for this Tosh. It is a pity that different Fora are infested by trolls and others who seek to destroy credibility and cast doubt on testimony. That is their job I suppose. But it is a pity - and often surprising - they are tolerated the way they are.
It is probably a really dumb question and one not open to a ready answer at the present, but who were the principal protagonists in the "drug war of 1978-86"?
David
The CIA and Joanides - Dawn Meredith - 24-12-2008
Tosh:
I thought your book would be coming out BEFORE your death. Although I certainly understand why you would choose such a publication to be after.
I look forward to more tidbits here on the forum (and in email). It will be especially interesting to see what Jeff Morley is able to unearth and how you can dovetail your personal knowledge with redacted records.
Can you tell us for example who else testified before Kerry et all on CIA drug running?
Merry Christmas to you and your family Tosh,
Dawn
The CIA and Joanides - Myra Bronstein - 24-12-2008
Is this George Joannides in the attached photo, taken at the Ambassador Hotel on the night Bobbie Kennedy was assassinated, as Shane O'Sullivan claims?
The CIA and Joanides - Tosh Plumlee - 24-12-2008
Dawn
The manuscript I referenced in the previous post was sealed and notarized some years ago and remains in my legal staff's control. It is detailed with supporting documentation of which I have collected over many many years. That manuscript will be released for publication after my death. ( the old manuscrip of 1978 will be merged with my current work of (08) and be published after my death. It was one of the very first drafts of Deep Cover Shallow Graves.
I decided not to publish DCSG until after I am gone. There are members of my family who have requested I do this. And too, I still have a close relationship with some who are still connected with the Pentagon. Its for their job security and safty. For me, its not a money thing or an ego trip, like some I know.
Also, the way I have been treated by some in the so called "Research Community" and their "Specialized Projects of interest" has caused me to reconsider the Jan 09 release date. I have taken no monies for the project and I am not indebted to anyone. Its for the protection of my family and friends that I have done this.
a reminder:
"... "A man does what he must - in spite of personal consequences...". JFK
The CIA and Joanides - Tosh Plumlee - 24-12-2008
David Guyatt Wrote:Thanks for this Tosh. It is a pity that different Fora are infested by trolls and others who seek to destroy credibility and cast doubt on testimony. That is their job I suppose. But it is a pity - and often surprising - they are tolerated the way they are.
It is probably a really dumb question and one not open to a ready answer at the present, but who were the principal protagonists in the "drug war of 1978-86"?
David
David;
Escobar, Ochoa, Gacha, Felix and the Baja bunch from southern Mexico ( both Cartels 1977-86) were the ones who we documented and were after during Operation Grasshopper, Watch Tower, and Whale Watch, as well as others. These operations were UC Classified and were sanctioned interdiction type operations. These were not "shut down operations ", but MI INTEL OPS to document Cartel fly ways and routings into US airspace and into the US overland routes. Most of these operations were a little before the Iran/Contra matter of 82-86, or there abouts.
The CIA and Joanides - Tosh Plumlee - 24-12-2008
Myra Bronstein Wrote:Is this George Joannides in the attached photo, taken at the Ambassador Hotel on the night Bobbie Kennedy was assassinated, as Shane O'Sullivan claims?
I'm not sure. It looks (to some degree) like I remember him but I really cannot tell for sure. I only had a few dealings with him and that was in 59 and again in 63. I knew him as "Mr. Howard". Mr. Howard was in charge of the "Illutionary Warfare" training program out of Nags Head NC in the early sixties. ("crazy Ops, ran by crazy people", as we called them) He was also at the 'School of the Americas" at Ft Benning for a shot time. My case officer at the time was Bob Bennette and they both worked the same covert operations and programs of the time.
The CIA and Joanides - Myra Bronstein - 24-12-2008
Tosh Plumlee Wrote:I'm not sure. It looks (to some degree) like I remember him but I really cannot tell for sure. I only had a few dealings with him and that was in 59 and again in 63. I knew him as "Mr. Howard". Mr. Howard was in charge of the "Illutionary Warfare" training program out of Nags Head NC in the early sixties. ("crazy Ops, ran by crazy people", as we called them) He was also at the 'School of the Americas" at Ft Benning for a shot time. My case officer at the time was Bob Bennette and they both worked the same covert operations and programs of the time.
Thanks.
The CIA and Joanides - Tosh Plumlee - 24-12-2008
Peter Lemkin Wrote:Tosh, Was this the fire at your house?! I assume so. Can you detail what you remember the documents about Howard / Joanides were about? Care to tell the Forum about the fire? [I know you told me several times]. The Company is fighting and kicking - determined not to release anything on him - wonder why?... Head of psyops at JM/WAVE and related matters. Hmmmmmm.....
Yes. Most of the documents were about Nags Head and the training there and something (heavy blank out) about Tampa Florida and New Orleans. Also it appeared, if I remember right, there was a military contact person in Dallas who was associated with Capt Edward G Seiwell; 4th Army and Capt. Gilbert Cook Texas 49th Armord Div. (that was my FOIA request. I got ten pages all blacked except for a few disjointed sentences. I was working on a book at the time tittled; "The Black Knights of Cuba". That manuscript was burned and I did not have any copies. Agent Scott Meridith Lit Agency had one copy but it too was lost sometime after the fire. (computers I did not have and they were not many available at that time)
As to the details of the Grant House Fire, they can be found in the article in the Rock Mountain News, August 7, 1981 by Tim McGovern. It was detailed at the time as to what was missing and who I thougt were responsible.