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+--- Thread: Grassy knoll=diversion (/thread-6448.html)
Grassy knoll=diversion - Bernice Moore - 23-05-2011
umbrellaman gifs...b magda the gifs are not working, help please...b Sorry Magda, i will try to correct..
the one in the centre is not moving, the other two are...thanks..b
Grassy knoll=diversion - Zach Robertson - 23-05-2011
Thanks for the great pictures Bernice. I'd love to see the gifs working properly. Here is Jack White's The Day of the Umbrella Man poster. It can be found in the John Armstrong collection at the Baylor Library online.
Zach
Grassy knoll=diversion - Magda Hassan - 23-05-2011
Bernice Moore Wrote:umbrellaman gifs...b magda the gifs are not working, help please...bThey're all jpeg except for one.
Grassy knoll=diversion - Peter Lemkin - 23-05-2011
Betty Chruscielski Wrote:Why would this man care if the truth came out? I know that Jim Marrs is a well respected researcher but if the powers that be didn't want the movie to come out would it have?
The PTB started well before the public knew the film was being made to try to undermine and stop it...in MANY ways. In the end they didn't succeed, but they filed the MSM, which they control, with pieces against the film and its general thesis. I, for one, don't see that there is a logical connection between the film coming out [nor any of the better JFK books] and the PTB 'letting them out'. They do not have total control over what comes out. They do have much control about all the crap produced [book, films, other] on the subject and they do try to stop the truth...but sometimes they just can't stop it.
Grassy knoll=diversion - Peter Lemkin - 23-05-2011
Charles Drago Wrote:Uh-huh.
And it also could be as simple as keeping uncertainty alive.
Yup! They do do that, don't they. For example, on the shot from the fence/knll area - while overall they from the beginning chose to discredit all that evidence/witnesses, as it has become more emplaced into mainstream discussion/acceptance of what actually happened, TPTB have tried to cloud the issue/facts by inventing [IMHO] additional fence/knoll shooters - to try to discredit and dilute the real ones [and playing both sides of the fence, literally and figuratively]...as Charles calls it "keeping uncertainty alive". TPTB do NOT, repeat NOT, want any conclusion nor certainty on what happened that day - let along why. They continue to move the mirrors and blow more smoke, as well as try to discredit, thwart and on a few occasions killed those who would/could speak the truth, in some form.
hutup:Overall, in the society at large, they have created great doubt, but have not stopped the research community, nor determined and open-minded non-researchers from approaching the truth of what happened. The EXACT truth may well have been so buried with disinformation/destruction of evidence and witnesses to ever be fully reconstructed. I feel, however, we can and have gotten a more-than-sufficient 85-95% clear view, today.
Grassy knoll=diversion - Betty Chruscielski - 23-05-2011
When I google how many books were written about the JFK assassination, I learned that back in 2003 there were over 400. In Posner's book he states over 2000 books, articles have been written. When I talk to people they just shrug their shoulders and say, "I guess we'll never know what happened". They have been smothered with information and disinformation. That's why I'm trying to go back to primary sources of information, The Warren Commission testimony, photographic and even more important lack of information. What have we been steered away from? What don't they want us to see? Why do most people not know about the lead car? Why is the approach of the lead car cut out of the Zapruder film? Why when I first looked at Wikipedia did they list the driver of the lead car as Bill Greer and the driver of the limo as William Greer? (Wikipedia no longer lists the occupants of the lead car or anything about the lead car).
Why did Allen Dulles when questioning Win Lawson get mixed up and couldn't remember which car was the lead car and which car was the pilot car and which one Win Lawson was in. You've got to read that. It's like he's having a dumb blonde moment or a senior moment.
Why didn't Sherriff 'Decker testify? Is it because he had as legend tells it, iron clad morals? He could rationalize and watch the president being killed but he wouldn't lie about it under oath.
Why does Spartacus educational not even list Forrest V. Sorrels as an important figure in the JFK assassination? In Spartacus's info on Sherriff Decker it lists Decker, Lawson and Curry as occupants of the lead car and doesn't even mention Sorrels.
We do have evidence. Look at Doug Weldon's work. It's terrific!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czQKoxjcvgc
We have a doctor who states she put her finger through a bullet hole in the windshield. We have an automaker who has testified how the windshield was replaced.
We have people in the lead car who have acted very suspiciously.
I know you can't convict someone because of their suspicious behavior but it does point you in a direction.
Grassy knoll=diversion - Gordon Gray - 24-05-2011
Zach Robertson Wrote:Betty, great topic.While I believe a shot definitely struck the President in the head from the front, I have always questioned how a trajectory from the right front(Grassy Knoll, edge of the fence and overpass) could be consistent with an exit wound on the right rear of his head, given the orientation of his head and the position of the car at the moment of impact. That would seem to be more consistent with a wound to the left rear. It seems to me the President's wounds are more consistent with a trajectory from the left front, originating on the south end of the overpass or the south knoll. I question whether this trajectory would allow for a shot that did not strike Jackie or Greer and did not penetrate the limosine windshield. I wonder if anyone has done sightings from these positions to see if it is possible.
In my opinion it is highly likely that you are exactly right. I believe the shot came from the front where the overpass meets the fence [with two other shooters behind, possibly one in the Dal Tex and one in the TSBD on the opposite end of the "snipers' lair"].
Have you read the Roy Hargraves Interview with Noel Twyman? He sticks to the script of Castro/Soviet conspiracy but drops in a few nuggets about what you have posted about. He describes 'signal man' [DCM] as his good friend Felipe Vidal Santiago. It is very likely that Umbrella Man is someone Vidal worked very closely with. Hargraves had also had fake secret service ID and admitted to being in Dallas with Vidal. He went on to say that Vidal had a walkie talkie.
Vidal is clearly signalling the crossfire with a series of clenched and unclenched fists while it appears to me that Umbrella Man's purpose was to get the Limo drivers [secret service] to look at him and get their attention and slow down. I think it is the Bronson image where the umbrella is a blur which we can deduce he is pumping it up and down very violently.
The ambush in Dallas was done by professionals who were well trained by the CIA. There would be contingency plans, diversions and false trails planted leading in all sorts of directions. Off-the-books assets like the Cuban military snipers described by Bradley Ayers were probably used. Their spotters were likely trained in infiltration techniques, things that CIA operations officer Dave Morales and his people were teaching them in 62-63. I think Morales planned the assassination and used contacts as cut outs to manage the project who in turn would be on site in Dallas. Hargraves goes on to mention that these people, described as 'handlers,' would be on the ground to let the operators know the op was genuine and the danger was real and shared by all.
Zach
Grassy knoll=diversion - Seamus Coogan - 24-05-2011
Betty Chruscielski Wrote:When I google how many books were written about the JFK assassination, I learned that back in 2003 there were over 400. In Posner's book he states over 2000 books, articles have been written. When I talk to people they just shrug their shoulders and say, "I guess we'll never know what happened". They have been smothered with information and disinformation. That's why I'm trying to go back to primary sources of information, The Warren Commission testimony, photographic and even more important lack of information. What have we been steered away from? What don't they want us to see? Why do most people not know about the lead car? Why is the approach of the lead car cut out of the Zapruder film? Why when I first looked at Wikipedia did they list the driver of the lead car as Bill Greer and the driver of the limo as William Greer? (Wikipedia no longer lists the occupants of the lead car or anything about the lead car).
Why did Allen Dulles when questioning Win Lawson get mixed up and couldn't remember which car was the lead car and which car was the pilot car and which one Win Lawson was in. You've got to read that. It's like he's having a dumb blonde moment or a senior moment.
Why didn't Sherriff 'Decker testify? Is it because he had as legend tells it, iron clad morals? He could rationalize and watch the president being killed but he wouldn't lie about it under oath.
Why does Spartacus educational not even list Forrest V. Sorrels as an important figure in the JFK assassination? In Spartacus's info on Sherriff Decker it lists Decker, Lawson and Curry as occupants of the lead car and doesn't even mention Sorrels.
We do have evidence. Look at Doug Weldon's work. It's terrific!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czQKoxjcvgc
We have a doctor who states she put her finger through a bullet hole in the windshield. We have an automaker who has testified how the windshield was replaced.
We have people in the lead car who have acted very suspiciously.
I know you can't convict someone because of their suspicious behavior but it does point you in a direction.
Yeah, its all very interesting. But Dealey Plaza itself is where many a hearts been broken and many a mind has been lost. As for the diversionary shot yeah cool. Id buy anything bar Oswald doin it, a storm drain shooter or say a shooter on the opposite side of the Plaza. I'm also interested by a few posts here about a shot coming nearer the overpass. I think that's really interesting. But I don't buy into the Brazil idea ie according to Bob Groden the photographic evidence does not show any missing fence pailings from there, no suspicios objects nor a even half a one.
Im sure someone will try and debate this with me but I have better things to do.
But nonetheless I reckon there or there about's is a cracking idea.
Bill Deckers case is an interesting one. No, I don't buy into him being involved that lines been pushed to the point of silliness (and its refreshing to see you don't). But he did make a number of comments with regards to believing it was a conspiracy to a number of people afterwards. As for Big Bill not being asked or discussing the points. Well, he needed to be asked lol, furthermore he was never to my knowledge asked. But I could be incorrect. One piece of information that is correct-but has been linked into some of the myth surrounding Decker is that Roger Craig remarked Bill Decker had told the Sheriffs not to participate in any way during the Motorcade.
Now, this was because Decker was under instructions from Sorrell's. The Secret Service arranged the Motorcade and the resultant protection. Don't buy into the BS myth it was Johnson and Connally. Thats a wash and a half.
As for the advance car in general you raise some really good points there. The car is certainly not my area of expertise but what I will say is that Currie when all is said and done was basically a good man, whom despite it all always nursed suspicions of Oswald's sole guilt or in fact his guilt full stop. Currie was woefully unsupported by his staff throughout the event (staff whom he was extremely loyal too and defended) but of the cars occupants Sorrell's definitely is worthy of a look.
Doug Weldon (bar his LBJ leanings lol) does have some good stuff like you say on th Limo as does Pam McElwain Brown. But for my money take a look at Vince Palamara's 'Survivors Guilt' and his follow up articles. It's really interesting stuff which might answer at least some of your questions.
Grassy knoll=diversion - Seamus Coogan - 24-05-2011
Gordon Gray Wrote:Zach Robertson Wrote:Betty, great topic.While I believe a shot definitely struck the President in the head from the front, I have always questioned how a trajectory from the right front(Grassy Knoll, edge of the fence and overpass) could be consistent with an exit wound on the right rear of his head, given the orientation of his head and the position of the car at the moment of impact. That would seem to be more consistent with a wound to the left rear. It seems to me the President's wounds are more consistent with a trajectory from the left front, originating on the south end of the overpass or the south knoll. I question whether this trajectory would allow for a shot that did not strike Jackie or Greer and did not penetrate the limosine windshield. I wonder if anyone has done sightings from these positions to see if it is possible.
In my opinion it is highly likely that you are exactly right. I believe the shot came from the front where the overpass meets the fence [with two other shooters behind, possibly one in the Dal Tex and one in the TSBD on the opposite end of the "snipers' lair"].
Have you read the Roy Hargraves Interview with Noel Twyman? He sticks to the script of Castro/Soviet conspiracy but drops in a few nuggets about what you have posted about. He describes 'signal man' [DCM] as his good friend Felipe Vidal Santiago. It is very likely that Umbrella Man is someone Vidal worked very closely with. Hargraves had also had fake secret service ID and admitted to being in Dallas with Vidal. He went on to say that Vidal had a walkie talkie.
Vidal is clearly signalling the crossfire with a series of clenched and unclenched fists while it appears to me that Umbrella Man's purpose was to get the Limo drivers [secret service] to look at him and get their attention and slow down. I think it is the Bronson image where the umbrella is a blur which we can deduce he is pumping it up and down very violently.
The ambush in Dallas was done by professionals who were well trained by the CIA. There would be contingency plans, diversions and false trails planted leading in all sorts of directions. Off-the-books assets like the Cuban military snipers described by Bradley Ayers were probably used. Their spotters were likely trained in infiltration techniques, things that CIA operations officer Dave Morales and his people were teaching them in 62-63. I think Morales planned the assassination and used contacts as cut outs to manage the project who in turn would be on site in Dallas. Hargraves goes on to mention that these people, described as 'handlers,' would be on the ground to let the operators know the op was genuine and the danger was real and shared by all.
Zach
Yes interesting what struck me when I went to Dealey Plaza (no mean feat Im from NZ) was that it slopes downwards someways. It's not on a flat trajectory from an elevated postion and you don't need to be very high up you can get a good view right along the Knoll and onto the overpass. Lets just say your not pissing in the wind here.
Grassy knoll=diversion - Zach Robertson - 24-05-2011
Seamus and Gordon:
Great points. I would like to see photos from the south knoll / overpass area if any available online, or that could be uploaded here. I may have missed them when I was looking for something else.
On another note, here is the gif I think Bernice had. Hopefully it works...
Zach
http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=1193&fullsize=1