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PHIL;;;;Question, please - Bernice Moore - 03-08-2011
i know nothing really about guns, i have read, that the shells left in front of the window on the 6th floor, TSBD they had no black marks around the opening of the cartridges, which is usually left when such is fired from a weapon, any weapon, ....getting powder burns on the edge , there were no powder burns on those cartridges, mentioned by roger craig, i know of no report on such right now, just wondering if you had run across anything...thanks..take care..b
PHIL;;;;Question, please - Phil Dragoo - 03-08-2011
Bernice
This tutorial provides an outline of elements and characteristics inherent in the process of firing and analyzing the results.
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNGSR.html
I will look for any testing of the two or three "hulls" alleged to have been found at the sixth floor southeast corner window on Elm.
PHIL;;;;Question, please - Phil Dragoo - 03-08-2011
Warren Commission Report page 79:
It was the unanimous opinion of the experts that the nearly whole bullet, the two largest fragments and the three cartridge cases were definitely fired in the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository Building to the exclusion of all other weapons.
After some boilerplate, page 85:
After examination of the cartridge cases found on the sixth floor of the Depository, Frazier and Nicol concluded that they had been fired in the C2766 Manlicher-Carcano rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons. (Note 146)
I'm an expert and you're not: Frazier 547-553:
Synopsis: The machining is different on every bolt and every cartridge case tells a storyand the untrained person could not possibly see what I can see.
Frazier concludes based on marks, that the cases were fired in the rifle.
Michael T. Griffith presents a convincing case for the third casing CE 543 (the dented one) having been cycled through and dry-fired empty in the alleged murder weapon to produce marks tying it to said weapon. The reason being only two shots were heard by most witnesses in the area, and of course, that dent, which would have precluded loading a bullet.
Twyman points out the two casings sent to the FBI, the third allegedly being retained by Fritz until the 27th. The photo of the two in Bloody Treason is stunning.
The HSCA buys the Warren assertion regarding the marksbut Griffith and Josiah Thompson indicate at least one of the three, CE 543, bears the marks of repeated firing.
Griffith cites Kurtz in an incredible exposition of the problems linking any of the three cartridge cases CE 543, 544, 545:
As for the bullet shells that were found in the sixth-floor sniper's nest, there are all sorts of objections to their evidentiary value. For one thing, there is good reason to believe that one of those shells, CE 543, could have been fired from the alleged murder weapon because it has a severe dent in its lip. Professor Michael Kurtz explains:
- The third cartridge case, Commission Exhibit 543, contained a dent in the opening so large that it could not have held a bullet in it. . . .
In a letter to the Warren Commission of 2 June 1964, J. Edgar Hoover noted that Commission Exhibit 543 (FBI Number C6), the case with the dent, had "three sets of marks on the base of this cartridge case which were not found [on the other casings]." The case, according to Hoover, had also been loaded into and extracted from a weapon three times. The only marks linking the case to Oswald's rifle were marks from the magazine follower. As noted above, Case 543 could not have obtained the marks from the magazine follower on 22 November, since the last round in the clip must have been the unfired one in the chamber. Furthermore, Commission Exhibit 543 lacks the characteristic indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald's rifle.
Dr. E. Forrest Chapman, forensic pathologist, who in 1973 was given access to the assassination materials in the National Archives, noted that Case 543 was probably "dry loaded" into a rifle. Since the dent was too large for the case to have contained a bullet on 22 November, it was never fired from Oswald's rifle. The EMPTY case, however, for some unknown reason cold have been loaded into a rifle, the trigger pulled, and the bolt operated. Dr. Chapman discovered this phenomenon through experiments of his own.
Dr. Chapman also noted that Case 543 had a deeper and more concave indentation on its base, at the primer, where the firing pin strikes the case. ONLY EMPTY CASES EXHIBIT SUCH CHARACTERISTICS. The FBI also reproduced the effect. Commission Exhibit 557 is a test cartridge case, fired EMPTY from Oswald's rifle by the FBI for ballistics comparison purposes. It, too, contains the dent in the lip and deep primer impression similar to Case 543.
Thus, the evidence proves conclusively that Commission Exhibit 543 could not have been fired from Oswald's rifle. . . . (Kurtz 50-51, emphasis added)
- The third cartridge case, Commission Exhibit 543, contained a dent in the opening so large that it could not have held a bullet in it. . . .
- Since Commission Exhibits 544 and 545 bear no markings from the firing pin of Oswald's rifle, the evidence proves only that they both had been loaded into the firing chamber and that Case 544 was ejected through the bolt action, but that Case 545 was not. . . .
Of the three cartridge cases, one, Commission Exhibit 543, can be positively eliminated. The dent in its lip was too deep to permit a bullet to fit inside the case. it also lacked the characteristic indentation made by the chamber of Oswald's rifle on all other cases and bullets. . . .
Commission Exhibit 545 had been inside the firing chamber. However, it lacked the markings of the bolt of Oswald's rifle. Since the primer cap bore the impression of a firing pin, and since it did not have a dent similar to that of Case 543, we can conclude one of two things: Case 545 was indeed fired from Oswald's rifle and somehow managed to be ejected without being marked by the bolt, or it was fired from the other rifle into which it had been previously loaded and ejected. In either case, there is no evidence that this cartridge was fired from Oswald's rifle on the day of the assassination.
Commission Exhibit 544 bore the markings of the firing chamber and of the bolt of Oswald's rifle, and its primer held an impression similar to that made by Oswald's firing pin. Since the two metal fragments found in the front seat of the presidential limousine were positively identified as having been fired from Oswald's rifle, we can reasonably speculate that there is very strong evidence to believe Case 544 contained a bullet fired at President Kennedy. However, the possibility that the fragments could have been planted in the limousine, the strange markings on Case 544, indicating that it, too, had been previously loaded and ejected from another rifle, and the confusion as to which of the three cartridge cases was found west of the window give rise to serious doubts as to whether such speculation is valid. (Kurtz 51-52, 53-54)
- Since Commission Exhibits 544 and 545 bear no markings from the firing pin of Oswald's rifle, the evidence proves only that they both had been loaded into the firing chamber and that Case 544 was ejected through the bolt action, but that Case 545 was not. . . .
Reference is not found to testing done by authorities upon discovery of cartridge cases regarding residues associated with firing. Doublespeak appears in Oak Ridge correspondence regarding no discernible difference in antimony and barium levels in rifle and cartridge casesbut we assume the cases were fired. The Commission is not bothered that there is no indication they were fired that day; the same may be said of the discovered weapon.
A very thorough effort was made to insure Frazier would be able to pontificate from 547-553 regarding his professional expertisehardly surprising given the apparent repetitive dry-firing.
PHIL;;;;Question, please - Bernice Moore - 04-08-2011
thanks phil for passing along the info, so no mention of the black powder burns was, is mentioned, i know i cannot recall any, and have read much over time re bullets and weapon, though i admit, much at times, to me was, well gobbly gook..like none of the officers bothered to smell the rifle that day, which i have read would have told them immediately, if that was the killing weapon, but they already had been told that apparently, though two wasn't it or three made the mistake of calling it a mauser which it remained in all reports even from wade for 24 hours, craig also reported they were lined up the shells like in a row, not haphazard like landing on the floor from being ejected, i think also Aylea mentions something in that regard and also about a second rifle, i will look his info up and see what is and is not mentioned, also i have been running into of late, a noise heard as they turned the elm street corner, and one reporting they heard jfk being called, him turning then the first noise sound being heard, and quite often on forums, the mention of something occurring at that corner where truly or shelley, said the xp 100 almost ran up on the curb, and the films of the turn,do not showing the complete turn some frames being cut, oops...and the crappy zappy not showing it at all, though he stated he began filming as they began coming round the corner, but then he also said a shot went over hs right shoulder from behind him.and sitzman also mentioned such from behind, but that info has been buried, smashed, forgotten, likened to day dreaming, etc, any excuse is was good enough, or just don't print it in the w/c better left out, and the same with the hsca, when they had their set published, just leave it out, and the info will go away, but zaps was printed in the w/c, the shot from behind him, oooops.....and i am rattling, and am gone, for now, thanks again...take care b