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+--- Thread: TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? (/thread-8626.html)
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Ralph Cinque - 03-01-2012
Mr. Doyle took the liberty of introducing my video series in a separate thread. But, the wrong URL got posted, so I'm posting the right one here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_3sCGPQ3zk&feature=youtu.be
And I did post a rather long response to what Mr. Doyle, and others, said at that bottom of that thread, if you're interested. But, I'm starting a new thread of my own because I think this issue is very important. And of course, I encourage members to watch my videos, and I'll be glad to hear your reactions. And I don't mind if they are critical, but they need to be substantive. General derogatory remarks are uncalled for, and having read the rules here, I know that they are prohibited. So, word to the wise. Please, in responding, delve into the issues and be specific. Please don't be glib, and don't generalize.
But, the gist of it is that the Doorman was wearing Oswald's shirt. It was a very unusual shirt, and on the left side, it had the lay of a jacket. The only characteristic of the shirt that has ever been linked to Lovelady is the pattern. But, that would have been the easiest thing to change, since it only involved darkness and light. Dr. Fetzer wrote a whole book on how the Zapruder Film was altered entitled "The Great Zapruder Film Hoax." The Z-film was just a series of still photos that were rapidly sequenced. So, if they could alter that, they could certainly have altered the Altgens photo, and they did.
There are 10 videos, but each is only 5 minutes or a little less. So, it's a total of about 40 minutes. But, if you don't have that much time, then just watch the first one. Give me 5 minutes. And, please watch with an open mind. Thank you. Ralph Cinque
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Albert Doyle - 03-01-2012
Could we somehow bring Dr Cinque's Altgens blow-up to the thread to show his claims? He's claiming the unique properties of Oswald's shirt are seen on Lovelady in the shot. Keep in mind he's claiming CIA transferred the flannel plaid from Lovelady's shirt over and on to Oswald's shirt to complete the deception.
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Magda Hassan - 03-01-2012
Albert Doyle Wrote:Could we somehow bring Dr Cinque's Altgens blow-up to the thread to show his claims? He's claiming the unique properties of Oswald's shirt are seen on Lovelady in the shot. Keep in mind he's claiming CIA transferred the flannel plaid from Lovelady's shirt over and on to Oswald's shirt to complete the deception.You're welcome to upload any images and videos if you have them Al.
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Ralph Cinque - 03-01-2012
I request that Mr. Doyle refer to Doorman as Doorman and NOT as Lovelady. If I were to do likewise and start referring to Doorman as Oswald, then we would be totally mired in confusion. Is that what you want? So, let's not do that. Let's keep everything straight. I know you think he's Lovelady. You don't have to remind me. Call him Doorman.
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - LR Trotter - 03-01-2012
Speaking as a student of research regarding the JFK assassination, but not as a researcher, I am having trouble understanding what is being said and/or implied in this thread. During the years I have studied the research, I don't recall any indication that Billy Lovelady was suspected of any involvment in the shooting in Dealey Plaza on 11/22/'63. And, to me, any "evidence" against LHO being a shooter in the murder of JFK and wounding of JBC seems somewhat suspect itself. I know I think slower now than I used to, but whether it was Lee Oswald or Billy Lovelady pictured in the TSBD doorway really has no effect on any serious truth seeker in the JFK assassination. The evidence as I see it, puts LHO on the 2nd floor of the TSBD during the shooting at 12:30 pm that day.
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Peter Lemkin - 03-01-2012
Who is/are in the doorway has been made confusing over the years. Some by simple disagreement; some by IMO purposeful disinformation work. It is interesting to know who they are [along with so MANY others seen in and around the Plaza in photos!], but it matters little in the end, as it is easy to show that 'Oswald' [because there may have been two] was NOT on the 6th floor during the shooting and didn't have a rifle with him. He was most likely in the Checkers lunchroom and maybe was also at the doorway at some point. Either way, he was not a shooter and was not on the 6th floor during the shooting....as can be proven without the doorway evidence. FWIW, I don't think it is Lovelady in the doorway. Can someone nail down when Lovelady was photographed later in a somewhat similar shirt and when someone looking like either of them was noticed in the doorway? My gut feeling is that someone prompted Lovelady as a 'good citizen' or possibly a spotter that day (somewhat operational) to come forward once an Oswald look-alike or Oswald was seen in the doorway photo. It now seems as though Boyd had several of his usual employees, plus the men 'putting down the new flooring' on the 6th floor [sic] working as spotters, if not a lot more! The lapel work is interesting, but best would be photo enhancements and work on those facial features that don't change and can be used to ID a person with some accuracy. IMO
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Charles Drago - 03-01-2012
Dr Ralph Cinque Wrote:I request that Mr. Doyle refer to Doorman as Doorman and NOT as Lovelady. If I were to do likewise and start referring to Doorman as Oswald, then we would be totally mired in confusion. Is that what you want? So, let's not do that. Let's keep everything straight. I know you think he's Lovelady. You don't have to remind me. Call him Doorman.
In the past, the appearances of agents provocateur on this forum have been characterized by, among other features, the issuing of orders by the agents to established correspondents.
Call me a cynic.
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Charles Drago - 03-01-2012
Dr Ralph Cinque Wrote:And of course, I encourage members to watch my videos, and I'll be glad to hear your reactions. And I don't mind if they are critical, but they need to be substantive. General derogatory remarks are uncalled for, and having read the rules here, I know that they are prohibited. So, word to the wise. Please, in responding, delve into the issues and be specific. Please don't be glib, and don't generalize.
See above.
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Ralph Cinque - 03-01-2012
For the sake of Mr. Trotter and those who are not up to speed on the Altgens photo, it was a photo taken during the shooting- inadvertently- by famed photographer Ike Altgens who worked for the AP. It was immediately blasted around the world and was seen in newspapers the world over. People noticed that the guy standing next to the column in the doorway looked and dressed like Oswald. But, it was soon announced that it was another TSBD employee, Billy Lovelady. And, a blow-up of Doorway Man was released, which supposedly matched Lovelady: in the pattern of the shirt, the hairline, and minute facial features. Lone-nutters seized on this as a final resolution, and unfortunately, so did some conspiracy theorists, including some prominent ones. Even Dr. Fetzer did for a long time, but fortunately, he has changed his mind in light of my work. That was and is Lee Harvey Oswald standing in the doorway. He was outside watching during the shooting. And he said that he was there. He told Detective Will Fritz that he was "out in front with Bill Shelley" during the shooting. Fritz wrote it down, and I have a copy of his notes.
But, in response to Mr. Lemken, I don't know the exact time that the picture of Lovelady was taken. But, you mustn't assume that the facial details of Doorway Man are authentic. Such details are suspicious because they cannot be seen with the naked eye in the Altgens photo. The fierce momentum and determination of government and media to find for a lone gunman (Oswald) was immediate and unequivocal. That course was, for them, unalterable, and we should not assume they would not have altered evidence to support it.
I am asking people to think like mathematicians in terms of odds. The fact that both Doorman and Oswald were both wearing outer shirts that were unbuttoned, except at the bottom, is the first thing that was an unlikely coincidence. And no one has ever presented evidence, photographic or testimonial, that Lovelady was dressed that way. The fact that both Doorman and Oswald were both wearing v-necked t-shirts is unlikely coincidence #2. In every picture we have of Lovelady, his t-shirt is round-necked, including the ones in which he was posing as Doorman. The fact that the shirts of both Doorman and Oswald are both loose-fitting is unlikely coincidence #3, especially since Lovelady's shirt looks tight on him. The fact that the right collar/lapel of Doorman and Oswald match perfectly is unlikely coincidence #4. The fact that there is a long, jacket-like lapel on the left side of both of their shirts is unlikely coincidence #5. The left collar of Doorman's shirt cannot be seen because the strange figure of Black Tie Man, who seems to be glued to him like a conjoined twin, is covering it up. And even among Warren Report devotees, there is dispute about whether or not Black Tie Man is real. When forced to discuss it, many say he is not real. But, they prefer not to discuss it. Neither Bugliosi nor Posner mentioned Black Tie Man in their books. Nowhere in the Warren Report was he mentioned. And, the House Subcommittee did not mention him either. How could all these people overlook the person who was closest to Doorman? If he's real, how could they fail to identify him, and I mean: DETERMINE HIS NAME. It is very suspicious, and it makes the whole issue of Doorway Man's identity very suspicious. And, there is no question that Oswald's shirt on that side was very distinctive and unusual, having the flap of collar, a long lapel below it, and jutting off the end of the lapel, a button loop. And the net effect was to make the collar looked notched on that side- like a jacket. How many people have shirts like that? That highly distinctive arrangement is what Black Tie Man's presence prevents comparison of between Doorman and Oswald.
But, even without that comparison, I have already provided 5 likenesses between the shirts of Oswald and Doorman. Let's play around with it mathematically, and these will be very conservative guesses. Oswald and Doorman were both unbuttoned. This was a workplace, downtown in a big city, involving men and women; plus the President was driving by. Let's say that that "coincidence" had a probability of 20%, a random likelihood of 1 chance out of 5. That both shirts were loose-fiiting, we'll assign a likelihood of 1 in 4. Don't most men wear shirts that fit them pretty well? That both men wore v-necked t-shirts, we'll assign a likelihood of 1 in 4. Don't most men wear round-necked t-shirts? It's obvious that Lovelady preferred round-necked. That's all we see him in. That the collar and small lapel on the right matched so perfectly on both, which I demonstrate in my videos, we'll assign a likelihood of 1 in 5. And that is being very conservative. However, the presence of a long lapel on the left side of both, that had to be a real longshot. You can tell that Doorman has a lapel there because the material looks so much thicker on that side- from being folded over, doubled. But, let's just call it 1 in 5. When you multiply .2 x .25 x .25 x .2 x .2 what you get is 1 chance in 2000 that all those likenesses would arbitrarily coincide between the shirts of Oswald and Doorman. And those figures, I think, were way too conservative.
The only characteristic of that shirt that correlates with Lovelady was the pattern, which was easy to fake, even in 1963. But, it isn't even that well-matched in that regard. For instance, Lovelady's shirt only had white lines. It had no white squares. So, why do we see white blotches on Doorman's shirt? Is that how Lovelady's shirt would have appeared?
This could have been tested at the time. They had Lovelady; he had his shirt. They had Altgens; he had his camera. Why didn't they place Lovelady in the doorway and Altgens on his spot, wherever it was, and shoot the picture again? Believe me, they didn't dare. It wasn't about finding the truth; it was about framing Oswald.
The shirt proves that Doorman was Oswald. The shirts match too well- in their form, in how they were worn, and in how they lied- to be anything but the same shirt. Any mathematicians among you?
TSBD Doorway man - Oswald or Lovelady? - Charles Drago - 03-01-2012
What is the date and time of the first known public showing of Altgens 6?
For a more valuable discussion of this topic on DPF, see
https://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?6252-Altgens-6-Case-for-Alteration