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+--- Thread: Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley (/thread-9900.html)
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Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - David Josephs - 12-10-2012
The shirt in Altgens is not the shirt Oswald was wearing when arrested...
In both his notes and his after report Fritz states that Oswald changed his shirt and pants....
What I was hoping to find was a coroborrating report from one of the attendees of the interrogation... the FIRST ONE I found did just that.
none of the clothing descriptions prior to Oswald going home can be coroborrated unless we can see these two items of clothing...
Wanna bet they were NEVER shown to anyone who might have seen Oswald that day?
In fact... the shirt and pants, listed seperately on the 11/22 inventory, does not appear on the list of evidence given back to the FBI on the 26th - CE2003
DJ
CE2003 Fritz notes of interrogation.
during this conversation, he told me he reached his home by cab
and changed both his shirt and trousers before going to the show.
http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0019a.htm
Bookout report of 11/24 on Fritz's interrogation of Oswald
He stated that
after arriving at his apartment, he changed his shirt and
trousers because they were dirty . He described his dirty
clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved, shirt
with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers . He
indicated that he had placed these articles of clothing
in the lower drawer of his dresser .
Inventory of items given to FBI on the 26th
1 Man's brown sport shirt "Taken from Lee Harvey Oswald" (actually taken on 11/22)
NOW... did they find these clothes at Oswald's room?
According to this inventory of items taken from Beckley on the 22nd...
they include a 1 BROWN shirt with button down collar
and 1 pair of GREY trousers and other misc MEN'S clothing
Kinda like you might find in a drawer full of clothes.... I wonder if they found a JACKET at Beckley as well...
![[Image: 0110-002.gif]](http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff394/dhjosephs/0110-002.gif)
Fritz's report:
Oswald's shirt, which he was wearing at the time of arrest,
had been removed and sent to the crime lab in Washington with all
the other evidence for a comparison test. (on 11/22)
![[Image: DaysaysallevidencegiventoFBI11-22CROP2616-002.gif]](http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff394/dhjosephs/DaysaysallevidencegiventoFBI11-22CROP2616-002.gif)
Ted Calloway, who told me he had seen the suspect running from the scene with a
gun in his hand and how he was dressed-with dark trousers, shirt light color,
jacket and a T-shirt, the shirt and Jacket were open and he could see the
T shirt.
Sims found a bus transfer slip In Oswald's shirt pocket.
Seems to me, comparing the clothes in the image of the man in the TSBD doorway (an ongoing and massive thread over at Duncan's) and the items of clothing Oswald wore when arrested (as we have NO PHOTOS of Oswald prior to his arrest that day) is pure folly - he is not wearing the same clothes.... and if he was not wearing the same shirt he was wearing on the bus, if he was even on the bus,
HOW can the transfer be found in THAT SHIRT'S pocket?
HOW can Lovelady be considered Oswald?
and WHY did the numbering of inventory items END AT #455, when the inventory continues with the next items being the clothes that MAY BE the ones found in his room...
Cheers
DJ
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - Phil Dragoo - 13-10-2012
David, in Barry Krusch, the two shells became three, they were sent down the Drain to DC but stayed in Dallas, and elsewhere the Minox camera became a light meter, while Ruth Paine and Robert Oswald found things--why even the police searching found things after time and multiple searches.
When Helen Markham could converse with the dead, had to be led to identify Lee, and "witnesses" to subjects in Depository windows varied widely, while the vaunted Bureau of Because the Director Said So could not find the laundry Marina never used on the jacket Lee ever wore, your clothing anomaly is consistent rather than contrary to the investigation.
Question which has always bothered me: if he stopped by to pick up a gun from a rooming house with a nosy landlady, where did he keep it.
Was there a wormhole at Beckley which made evidence vanish and his walk to the Tippit scene merely stepping across a puddle in the space-time continuum.
America and the world has only seen the suspect in a t-shirt---until he donned a sweater for the honkie shoot in The Basement.
Hoover sucked more evidence out of existence than any marvelous invention of David Oreck or any younger brother of a sitting president.
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - David Josephs - 14-10-2012
According to the evidence Oswald left the TSBD in his Tshirt... what he came to work wearing...
the shooter and rifle, were, according to Brennan:
Mr. BELIN. I am handing you what the court reporter has marked as Commission Exhibit 150. (DJ: the dark rust shirt Oswald was arrested wearing)
Does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind?
Mr. BRENNAN. I would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade or so lighter.
Mr. BELIN. Than Exhibit 150?
Mr. BRENNAN. That is the best of my recollection.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Could you see the man's trousers at all?
Do you remember any color?
Mr. BRENNAN. I remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. And that was another thing that I called their attention to at the lineup.
Mr. BELIN. What do you mean by that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That he was not dressed in the same clothes that I saw the man in the window.
Mr. BELIN. You mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt?
Mr. BRENNAN. Well, not particularly either. In other words, he just didn't have the same clothes on.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
For Brennan to have remembered this a few months later is interesting... no? For if he is correct, Bledsoe and Whaley could NOT have seen the same Oswald... or were coached as to how to describe the man by someone who did not know about the clothing change...
the shooter in the window had a rifle without a scope...
Mr. BELIN. Could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it?
Mr. BRENNAN. I did not observe a scope.
..
Mr. BELIN. How much of the gun do you believe that you saw?
Mr. BRENNAN. I calculate 70 to 85 percent of the gun.
Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - He had a brown shirt.
Mr. BALL - And unraveled?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve
right here [indicating].
Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That
is, you pointed to the elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is.
Mr. BALL - And
that would be which elbow, right or left elbow?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off.
Mr. BALL - What did he have on underneath that?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't know.
Mr. BALL - Do you know the color of any undershirt he had on?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - No.
Mr. BALL - Notice the color of his pants?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes, they were gray, and they were all ragged in here [indicating].
Mr. BALL - Around where?
Mrs. BLEDSOE - At the seam.
See attached for description of 1 pair of grey faded torn pants....
Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.
He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt. You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there
Mrs. Reid does though...
Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him?
Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you
Mr. BELIN - Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers--
Mr. BELIN - What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr. CRAIG - No; medium, probably; I'd say medium. And, a--uh--light tan shirt, as I remember it.
...
Mr. BELIN - I hand you Exhibit No. 150. Have you ever seen a shirt like this before? Does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon?
Mr. CRAIG - It's the same type of shirt.
Mr. BELIN - I believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". Would Exhibit 150 be darker than the shirt he was wearing?
Mr. CRAIG - Uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh.
To recap
Oswald is not wearing the dark rust ARREST shirt to work that morning
He is not wearing it when he is leaving with the Coke as seen by Mrs Reid
The man Bledsoe DESCRIBED is wearing the ARREST shirt BEFORE Oswald ever put it on
Whaley describes a "shirt/jacket" that is similiar to the ARREST shirt... PRIOR to Oswald wearing it.
Brennan tells us the man he described was wearing different clothes than Oswald's ARREST clothes...
the clothes he changed out of are found at Beckley yet are neither given an inventory # when sent to DC, nor photographed, although listed on the inventory master right after Items #455
the LAST item with a number.
Both Bledsoe/Whaley AND Brennan cannot be identifying the same person, the bus transfer HAS to be a plant, and Lovelady is who we see in Altgens, no question.
DJ
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - Albert Doyle - 14-10-2012
Goodness, if only someone had photographed or filmed Oswald leaving the Depository. (Or both departures).
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - LR Trotter - 14-10-2012
The Altgens photograph has been exhaustively discussed on this forum. At times, there seemed to be a "doorway agenda" involved. I am "absolutely not" a photography (among other things) expert, but it appears to be B & W images and shadows, as far as the TSBD building background area, that has to be enlarged for viewing. And, the doorway area is a somewhat small portion of the picture. The images and shadows appear somewhat distorted, but based on other pictures and testimony, I am convinced that the person that appears to be Billy Nolan Lovelady is in fact, Billy Nolan Lovelady. That does not, does not put the person identified as Lee Harvey Oswald in the "snipers den" window firing a rifle. But, like I said, previously and exhaustively discussed/argued.
:argue:
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - David Josephs - 15-10-2012
LR Trotter Wrote:The Altgens photograph has been exhaustively discussed on this forum. At times, there seemed to be a "doorway agenda" involved. I am "absolutely not" a photography (among other things) expert, but it appears to be B & W images and shadows, as far as the TSBD building background area, that has to be enlarged for viewing. And, the doorway area is a somewhat small portion of the picture. The images and shadows appear somewhat distorted, but based on other pictures and testimony, I am convinced that the person that appears to be Billy Nolan Lovelady is in fact, Billy Nolan Lovelady. That does not, does not put the person identified as Lee Harvey Oswald in the "snipers den" window firing a rifle. But, like I said, previously and exhaustively discussed/argued.
:argue:
The comment about Altgens 6 was a jab at some friends from the EF and their mega-thread from Ralph and Fetzer...
If he was not wearing that shirt, the man in the doorway cannot be Oswald....
Yet, as we look at Bookout's comment - he describes the ARREST SHIRT - or one very similiar - as the one he takes off after returning home...
Yet if he didn't wear one - as witnessed by Reid and Roberts, how can he take it off when he gets home?
Sure sounds like a couple of people looking like Oswald that day... were seen by different people at different time...
How confusing and perfectly planned...
But I am still trying to understand and sort that out... any help here?
He stated that
after arriving at his apartment, he changed his shirt and
trousers because they were dirty . He described his dirty
clothes as being a reddish colored, long sleeved, shirt
with a button-down collar and gray colored trousers . He
indicated that he had placed these articles of clothing
in the lower drawer of his dresser .
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - David Josephs - 13-12-2012
was that the WCR got it right... he didn't change his clothes - JFetzer.
There has not been a single attempt, by the OSWALD IS INNOCENT project, at disproving this conclusion.
If he changed his shirt, the argument is moot.
Prove he didn't....
as they say in the LNer world.... Case Closed.
DJ
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - A.J. Blocker - 13-12-2012
Bus transfers are usually valid for 2 hours after purchase of initial ticket when you start to travel today, back in 1963 the transfer ticket my have been valid for the remainder of the day.
Oswald was not wealthy so if he went home to change with the plan of going out somewhere else, of course he would stick the bus transfer ticket back in his pocket after getting chnged and take it with him (especially if it was still valid for several more hours).....Oh
What did mrs roberts say....he left the boarding house and the last time she saw him he was standing where......oh thats right at the bus stop near his residence...
No mystery here....he got on a bus....he got off a bus...got in a cab....changed at home....put the transfer ticket in his new shirt pocket...went outside waited a few minutes for a bus.....changed his mind and walked off.
no need to see issues...when there really isnt one....lots more important stuff to look at then this issue of the bus ticket.
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - Albert Doyle - 13-12-2012
The shirt seen in Altgens is most likely Lovelady's plaid shirt that he was seen wearing in all other photographs from that day. Only an unlikely extreme technical theoretical possibility allows for anything else.
Oswald was NOT wearing the same clothes before and after going back to Beckley - Gary Craig - 13-12-2012
A.J. Blocker Wrote:Bus transfers are usually valid for 2 hours after purchase of initial ticket when you start to travel today, back in 1963 the transfer ticket my have been valid for the remainder of the day.
Oswald was not wealthy so if he went home to change with the plan of going out somewhere else, of course he would stick the bus transfer ticket back in his pocket after getting chnged and take it with him (especially if it was still valid for several more hours).....Oh
What did mrs roberts say....he left the boarding house and the last time she saw him he was standing where......oh thats right at the bus stop near his residence...
No mystery here....he got on a bus....he got off a bus...got in a cab....changed at home....put the transfer ticket in his new shirt pocket...went outside waited a few minutes for a bus.....changed his mind and walked off.
no need to see issues...when there really isnt one....lots more important stuff to look at then this issue of the bus ticket.
LHO is arrested @ approximately 1:55pm.
He isn't searched until 4:05pm! Over 2 hrs.!
Five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells, of the same odd assortment as found at Tippit's murder, are discovered in his left front pocket.
A pristine bus transfer is found in his shirt pocket.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/13/1372-001.gif
-snip-
"At approximately 1:55pm Friday, November 22, 1963, I was in the vicinity
of the Texas Theater in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, looking for the suspect
in the slaying of officer J.D. Tippit."
-snip-
"I joined the other officers in attempting to complete the arrest"
-snip-
"succeeded in subduing the suspect, and while the other officers held the suspect, Officer Ray Hawkins and I handcuffed the suspect."
-snip-
---------------------------
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1538-004.gif
-snip-
"At 4:05pm Sims, Boyd, and Det. M.C. Hall took Oswald down to the holdover in the jail
office for a show-up. Down in the hold over, Boyd searched Oswald and found
five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells in his left front pocket. Sims
found a bus transfer slip in Oswald's shirt pocket."
-snip
![[Image: Corbis-NA014721.jpg]](http://i959.photobucket.com/albums/ae75/garcra/Corbis-NA014721.jpg)