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+--- Thread: How and Why the Z-film was altered (/Thread-How-and-Why-the-Z-film-was-altered)
How and Why the Z-film was altered - David Josephs - 01-11-2012
"Why" in the context of Greg's wonderful essay on Zapruder's connection and its ultimate use as "the absolute timing record of the assassination"
and an exploration of the "How"...
I eluded to a master shot at 48fps cut down to 18.3fps (as does Horne) and what that entails and whether the finished altered record betrays this alteration (along with any other betrayals of this conclusion based on the evidence offered, i.e. the survey plats and speed/distance calcs)
If I remember correctly Tom Wilson http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=9508 was very sure that the film was not "correct"...
I mentioned WHY in a PM to Chalres that I thought it possible Z was enlisted to create this definitive version of the assassination as the MASTER for all the other films/photos...
We do notice that EVERYTHING analyzed is compared to Z for accuracy... does it show the headshot like Z, does he move like Z, etc, etc....
The problem being the existing film has none of the characteristics of the original produced... no "0183", no "Processed by Kodak", over 33 feet of actual film of which all by 6'3" is blank, and multiple splices.
So, was the Zfilm an innocent lucky break the conspirators could use as a MASTER for the assaination...
or was it part of the plan...
and HOW, if it was shot at 48fps, did this get past the developers BEFORE the film goes to Hawkeye...
DJ
How and Why the Z-film was altered - Charles Drago - 01-11-2012
David Josephs Wrote:I mentioned WHY in a PM to Charles that I thought it possible Z was enlisted to create this definitive version of the assassination as the MASTER for all the other films/photos...
We do notice that EVERYTHING analyzed is compared to Z for accuracy... does it show the headshot like Z, does he move like Z, etc, etc....DJ
Thanks for your willingness to give new life to this important issue.
As I've expressed to you, I am keenly interested in why the Z-film phenomenon exists.
Was the Z-film commissioned? Or did the plan to use it within the context of the cover-up's doppelganger gambit evolve naturally post-hit?
How and Why the Z-film was altered - Phil Dragoo - 01-11-2012
Mr. Zapruder's story is plausible, even to the human foible of a second-thought retrieval of the camera
Jack Ruby had a ready explanation for his presence at Western Union (from whence he spied his signal to the wings)
Zapruder, Ruby
ZR RIFLE
Someone from the life was commissioned
An author might spend a life accumulating strands of a plot
If Zapruder and his film didn't exist
They'd have to be written into the second edition
How and Why the Z-film was altered - David Josephs - 01-11-2012
In an attempt to examine WHY, I suggest we look at what portions of the motorcade/assassination experience are missing/suspect from ANY of the films....
and what significance that section of DP plays in the "story"...
1) Pinpointing the time duration from Z132 to Z133 and understanding whether this is a splice or Stop/Start of the camera
2) Understanding why the Towner film does not show the WIDE LEFT TURN onto Elm as described by Truly who was standing there...
Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.
There are no other images/film of the complete Turn onto Elm...
3) Hills transition from QM to limo in what amounts to one step... while the limo is moving at over 8mph (see image)
4) Altgens and Brehm stating the limo barely moved more than 10-15 feet from 1st to 3rd shot...
5) Altgens telling us JFK was shot in the head just 15 feet from his location coupled with the Plat legend stating 313 was at 4+65 while the notes tell us it was at 4+95 feet, 30 feet further down the street
(thank you Tom Purvis)
Mr. LIEBELER - Yes; what you are saying is that picture 203 was taken at a time when the President's car had actually gone down Elm Street to a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy area, outlined by Elm Street and a little street that runs down by the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Now, the thing that is troubling me, though, Mr. Altgens, is that you say the car was 30 feet away at the time you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and that is the time at which the first shot was fired?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - And that it was 15 feet away at the time the third shot was fired.
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - But during that period of time the car moved much more than 15 feet down Elm Street going down toward the triple underpass?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - I don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. I'm having trouble on this Exhibit No. 203 understanding how you could have been within 30 feet of the President's car when you took Commission Exhibit No. 203 and within 15 feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. Now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the President's car when he was hit in the head.
Mr. ALTGENS - Well, I was about 15 feet from it.
6) That Myers' calculations switch from the FRONT of the limo to JFK's POSITION in the limo as the limo turns onto Elm. This simple adjustment changes the distances by 15 feet or almost 15 frames at 18.3 and 10mph
7) Hudson telling us the shots were fired as the limo was even with the steps (see #5)
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired - somewhere right along in there.
Mr. LIEBELER - You think the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired?
Mr. HUDSON - Pretty close to it; yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - But you think the President had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired?
Mr. HUDSON - He had been hit twice, so Parkland Hospital said. He was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time.
Mr. LIEBELER - When the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it was coming around - it had just got around the corner,you see, from off of Houston Street, making that corner there, come off of Houston onto Elm.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did it look to you like the President was hit by the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir; I don't think so - I sure don't.
Mr. LIEBELER - You don't think he got hit by the first shot?
Mr. HUDSON - No.
Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - What happened after the President got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car?
Mr. HUDSON - He slumped over and Mrs. Kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over.
Mr. LIEBELER - Pulled him down in the seat?
Mr. HUDSON - Pulled him over in her lap like.
Mr. LIEBELER - If you don't think the Presidentgot hit by the first shot and yoy say he got hit in the head with the second shot -
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - And if we assume that he was shot twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - He was hit again after he got hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you think that could have been possible when Mrs. Kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes sir; I do
Mr. LIEBELER - He was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.
I think Z456 shows JFK sitting up as does 445, 453, 454, 455, 461, 466...
8) We do not see the QM after the assassination head shot(s) in any film or photo until McIntyre... and by then the QM has virtually caught the limo... HOW?
(btw - bt z475 the limo is gone under the overpass and QM is still nowhere to be seen... yet look at McIntyre....)
I think these are decent launching points for discussion
Cheers
DJ
How and Why the Z-film was altered - David Josephs - 05-11-2012
Kinney Report http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/sa-kinne.htm
When the President arrived at approximately. 11:40 am I took my place behind the
driver wheel in the follow-up car 679-X. After a few greetings by the President
we proceeded on with the motorcade through downtown Dallas and on to the
Shopping Mart where the President was to have lunch. We had gone about 30 to 40
min. and just made a right turn off Main St. and on block, a left turn onto Elm
St. A five minute signal had been given to agents waiting at the Mart. r As we
completed the left turn and on a short distance, there was a shot. At this time
I glanced from the taillights of the President's car, that I use for gauging
distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to
have grabbed his chest with his right hand. There was a second of pause and then
two more shots were heard. Agent Clinton Hill jumped from the follow-up car and
dashed to the aid of the President and First Lady in the President's car. I saw
one shot strike the President in the right side of the head. The President then
fell to the seat to the left toward Mrs. Kennedy. At this time I stepped on the
siren and gas pedal at the same time. Agent Greer driving the President's car
did the same. The lead car (ahead of the Pres. car) and motorcycles were told to
go to the nearest hospital. The President's car and 679-X then proceeded to the
hospital at a high rate of speed, taking approximately. 6 min. Upon arrival I
jumped from my car and ran to the right rear of the President's car, where I
assisted in removing Gov. Connally and the President.
Well... we know that Kinney did not step on the gas at this time... Nix shows the QM slowing along with the motorcycles..
Bell shows the QM chasing after the limo prior to the overpass... Does that not seem somewhat inconsistent with the slowing and stopping in Nix?
How can the QM catch the rapidly accellerating limo?
Representative FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you?
Mr. KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there?
Representative FORD. Yes.
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the God-damn road.
Could the QM stopping be misunderstood as the limo stop? very possible yet that makes the QM catching the limo in McIntyre even more remarkable.
Can anyone attempt to explain the connection between Nix's QM slow to a stop with Bell and McIntyre... Kinney's statement
and the FACT that we have no images showing the QM after the limo speeds away - this is the time the SS were supposed to have jumped out of the car guns pulled, returned to the car and sped off....
Bell then becomes an impossible scenario - correct?
DJ
How and Why the Z-film was altered - David Josephs - 06-11-2012
No offense Charles, I'm having this conversation alone....
Wasn't this something you wanted to explore more deeply?
The QM basically comes to a stop just after the headshots...
If the shot was actually at 4+95 as described... the QM slows to a crawl/stop as the limo speeds away..
Greg and others describe the SS getting out of the QM guns drawn... only to return back and speed off...
How then is the Bell image possible?
The limo is moving at close to 60...the QM had stopped. Yet the QM is seen chasing after the limo, quickly, at the end of Bell.
Not a single carera caught the stopped QM and Agent reaction... not one?
Why
DJ
How and Why the Z-film was altered - Charles Drago - 06-11-2012
David Josephs Wrote:No offense Charles, I'm having this conversation alone....
Wasn't this something you wanted to explore more deeply?
The QM basically comes to a stop just after the headshots...
If the shot was actually at 4+95 as described... the QM slows to a crawl/stop as the limo speeds away..
Greg and others describe the SS getting out of the QM guns drawn... only to return back and speed off...
How then is the Bell image possible?
The limo is moving at close to 60...the QM had stopped. Yet the QM is seen chasing after the limo, quickly, at the end of Bell.
Not a single carera caught the stopped QM and Agent reaction... not one?
Why
DJ
None taken, David.
I am convinced that the "historic" Z-film indeed has been altered. There's not much that I contribute in terms of technical analysis that others haven't already brought forward.
As I've tried to explain on other posts and via our PM exchange, my focus is on why the Z-film gambit was launched and why it continues to be played to this very day.
I'm interested in the reasons why a doppelganger Z-film (at least one, perhaps more) was show to Greg Burnham, Mili Cranor, Rich DellaRosa, and others.
I'm interested in the larger JFK assassination doppelganger gambit that was being played pre-Dallas and is being played to this day, and in how similar provocations can be detected in other deep political events (the assassination of Diana, for instance).
I'm very interested in your take on these issues.
How and Why the Z-film was altered - David Josephs - 07-11-2012
Charles Drago Wrote:David Josephs Wrote:No offense Charles, I'm having this conversation alone....
Wasn't this something you wanted to explore more deeply?
The QM basically comes to a stop just after the headshots...
If the shot was actually at 4+95 as described... the QM slows to a crawl/stop as the limo speeds away..
Greg and others describe the SS getting out of the QM guns drawn... only to return back and speed off...
How then is the Bell image possible?
The limo is moving at close to 60...the QM had stopped. Yet the QM is seen chasing after the limo, quickly, at the end of Bell.
Not a single camera caught the stopped QM and Agent reaction... not one?
Why
DJ
None taken, David.
I am convinced that the "historic" Z-film indeed has been altered. There's not much that I contribute in terms of technical analysis that others haven't already brought forward.
As I've tried to explain on other posts and via our PM exchange, my focus is on why the Z-film gambit was launched and why it continues to be played to this very day.
I'm interested in the reasons why a doppelganger Z-film (at least one, perhaps more) was show to Greg Burnham, Mili Cranor, Rich DellaRosa, and others.
I'm interested in the larger JFK assassination doppelganger gambit that was being played pre-Dallas and is being played to this day, and in how similar provocations can be detected in other deep political events (the assassination of Diana, for instance).
I'm very interested in your take on these issues.
Kinda like the chicken and the egg...
"Why" necessitates "HOW which necessitates "WHY"....
Greg et al could not see a more complete Zfilm unless one was taken at the time (or created at some future date)
What he describes seeing SEEMS to revolve around the (IN)actions of the SS (I happened to save Greg's post from EF of what he saw... yet unless he approves, I will not post it)
Limo taking WIDE turn onto Elm (cut to Z133)
Limo stopping/slowing
All the limo shots
QM stopping while limo leaves
SS agents leave QM (as limo leaves?)
SS agents return to QM and leave
Charles, please take me down your thought process here....
The WHY, if the leap is that far, has to include Zapruder before the fact... events that took place SEEM to suggest that not being the case...
While his activities in DP and climbing up on the pedastal are a bit suspect.
I'm going to jump head to HOW for a moment...
Here is a gif of 312, 317 & 321. The GRASS in the background is identical in each frame (I've stabilized the gif over a patch of grass that looks like a semi-circle just above Greer's head in 312... I believe this lends more credibility to the 48fps cut down rather than a composite...
DJ
How and Why the Z-film was altered - Phil Dragoo - 07-11-2012
David
Your file presents as a single jpg rather than the gif animation you describe
Here are the three frames from Costella
How and Why the Z-film was altered - David Josephs - 07-11-2012
The file IS a gif... when I upload it converts it to a jpg... ??
Any ideas? As this does show the background features in the grass as being the same thru these frames.
DJ
Here are the frames lined up over the similiar patterns in the grass...
(AGAIN - the png and gif files are being converted to a tiny jpg when uploading... This png is 500Kb
Help?? )
you can go here for the gif... I hope http://s1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff394/dhjosephs/?action=view¤t=headshot-background-the-same.gif
DJ