Myra Bronstein
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Is this likely to happen in another country?
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/653...c:_Yyc:aUU
A bunch of people suspend all common sense in the presence of an authority figure to this extent. People around them are dying and dead, not breathing, no pulse, there is no fucking oxygen, temperatures are dangerously high. People are not forced to stay. Yet when the con man--oops I mean "authority figure"--tells them to stay they do.
People are so docile that they ignore their own distress, along with the dying and dead, and stay put in an oven. Granted they were likely unable to think clearly due to the lack of oxygen. But hell, is this an episode more likely to occur in the US because of "the deliberate dumbing down of America"?
Are other countries as advanced in the deliberate dumbing down process?
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Certainly authority tries to dominate, and does, in many places outside of the US but the US does seem in many ways designed to produce obedience in people. From the children pledging their allegiance to the flag, the 'my country right or wrong' to 'the boss will look after me' mentality. I'm not sure if all that is directly relevant to this event. The people in the sweat lodge most likely were well off middle class looking for a peak experience of some kind. Certainly this ritual is not a part of their cultural experience and being greenhorns at it they need the guidance of some authority figure. It seems like the authority figure may have been more of a businessman than a shaman. Fifty people times$9,695 = $484,750 Teepee hire is not that expensive. Not bad for 2 hours work and a bit of admin.
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This probably couldn't happen in Scandinavia, the Baltics or Russia because people have a lot of experience in saunas and know their limits usually. Plus it's a fairly democratic thing, everyone's equal naked or in towels in the heat.
My understanding is the Native American sweat lodge tradition is likewise very non-authoritarian. There is no leader. I know the traditional vision quest is very personal, undertaken alone at one's own spiritual urging, for one's own benefit.
Of course you get the same sort of fatalities around the world in concert situations, people asphyxiated by the crowd, unventilated venue or both in combination with physiological effects from drugs.
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When I was working at a Womens Alcohol Recovery Home, we had a woman from an Indian Reservation. She told me that she had previously been quite ill and her parents took her to several Doctors trying to find out what was wrong with her. Many tests were done and nothing was ever found, So, they went to the Reservation Medicine Man, who talked her into going to "Sweats." If I recall right, it was for several days. Although, she was able to get out for breaks every so often. But it also did make her well. It had been my thoughts that her illness was alcohol related and the sweats cleansed her body from all the alcohol effects. Of course it did not curtail her drinking, so she did end up in the recovery home, but she was just no longer ill as she had been before going to the sweats. At that time, I hadn't much heard about sweats, so that story amazed me. Since then, I have had friends that enjoyed going to the sweats, for whatever reason...but not for me.... I get the heebie-jeebies when in any sort of heat....lol
Dixie
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Where the hell do I start!I have participated in a number of sweat lodge ceremonies.This is a cleansing ceremony where you sweat out your impurities.Their are four rounds(openings) in which after each,you open the flap and jump in the cold creek.They are certainly HOT,and inside the lodge their is little oxygen.Native Americans have been doing this for centuries.
There were times when I couldn't last the whole four rounds.No problem,I could stop at any time and leave the lodge.I have never heard of a person dying from a sweat lodge.The so called "GURU" here is a fucking con-man.And I might add,I don't think much for people who pay $10,000 for a shamanic weekend.Yeah,take a real sacred ceremony and defile it with big bucks.Maybe the Great Spirit saw the sham and delivered His/Her judgement.Hopefully a court will bring it's judgement down on these fake wannabe Shamans.It's the new hip thing now,ya know.So all you spiritual seekers pull out your wallets and pay the high price for a higher consciousness.:musicus:
Maybe they can sell God too.......
Sweat lodge=lashed willow branches
old plastic sheeting,tarps,or canvas
rocks(preferably lava)
cost=somewhere around nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.â€
Buckminster Fuller
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Myra Bronstein Wrote:Is this likely to happen in another country?
http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/653...c:_Yyc:aUU
A bunch of people suspend all common sense in the presence of an authority figure to this extent. People around them are dying and dead, not breathing, no pulse, there is no fucking oxygen, temperatures are dangerously high. People are not forced to stay. Yet when the con man--oops I mean "authority figure"--tells them to stay they do.
Do we have the full story on this event? Is there anything interesting going on in the background of both the authority figure and his overcharged guests?
I ask this because most people have certain powerful reflexes which would have taken them out of danger in the normal run of things. Was this a normal run of things and what happened to these powerful instinctive responses to danger? Seems to me we're missing something in this story.
Like drugs, perhaps?
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I don't know the details of the Sedona's story, but Myra's first post in this thread is a brilliant microcosm-is-macrocosm analysis of what is going on in this nation.
"Where is the intersection between the world's deep hunger and your deep gladness?"
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Ed Jewett Wrote:I don't know the details of the Sedona's story, but Myra's first post in this thread is a brilliant microcosm-is-macrocosm analysis of what is going on in this nation. Nice observation Ed. And , yes, you are right.
"Everyone go back to your desks, the building is safe, it is okay, you can return to your work place."
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"Move along, nothing to see here"
 heep: heep: heep:
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx
"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.
“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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Dixie,
It was really sad for me to watch these Native Americans try so hard to beat their demons.All night long singing,praying,beat the peyote drum.Then the Mother of all ceremonies,the Sun Dance.Four days of fasting,sweating,dancing,blowing their eagle bone whistles,while attached(pierced) by rope to the Tree of Life.So much strength to do this,and always go back to drinking,beating their wife.SAD,sad indeed.They tried so hard.My ex wife is Native American,but she couldn't use the sweat lodge because heat makes her break out in hives.Is that the heebie-jeebies?
Paul could be right about drugs being in the mixture.The area is pretty close to the peyote grounds.That place is sacred,and nobody should cut the cactus from that sacred place.I'm guessing that peyote wasn't used in this instance,just pure ignorance.:dontknow:
"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.â€
Buckminster Fuller
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Keith....
Yes, that is rather sad to undergo these rites, to beat their demons. ....and then go right back to their demons. Once, I lived near an Indian Reservation and knew some of the Native Americans that lived there. I heard many stories that upset me, at the time.
Oh...the heebie-jeebies....yes I also break out in hives, It happens when I am in the sun for very long too. But also I get very nervous and very jittery, like I want to freak out or something. ....so that is just what I call it.
Dixie
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