Ongoing neo-Fascist Coup In Brazil with Imprisonment of Lula

[Peter Lemkin]

Interview by Glenn Greenwald With Former Brazilian President Lula da Silva

Glenn Greenwald
April 11 2016, 10:12 a.m.






Leia em português

THE LIFE TRAJECTORY of Brazil's former President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva ("Lula") has been extraordinary. Born into extreme poverty, Lula left the presidential office in 2010, after serving two terms, with an unprecedented 86 percent approval rating, seemingly destined to enjoy almost universal respect on the world stage and to be remembered as one of modern history's greatest statesmen. Similar to the post-office path of Tony Blair and Bill and Hillary Clinton, Lula, since his term ended, has amassed great personal wealth by delivering speeches and providing consulting services to global power centers. The moderately left-wing party he co-founded, the Worker's Party (PT), has now controlled the presidency for 14 straight years.
Demonstrators parade large inflatable dolls depicting Brazil's former President Lula da Silva in prison garb and current President Rousseff dressed as a thief, with a sash that reads "impeachment," in São Paulo, Brazil, March 13, 2016.
Photo: Andre Penner/AP

But all of that, the entirety of Lula's legacy, is now seriously threatened. A grave, widespread corruption scandal involving the national oil company, Petrobras, is engulfing Brazil's economic and political elite, with PT at its center. His protégé and handpicked successor, the former anti-dictatorship Marxist guerrilla and current president, Dilma Rousseff, faces a credible impeachment threat (now supported by a majority of Brazilians) and widespread unpopularity due to an intractable, severe recession. Senior members of PT have been arrested and imprisoned. Massive street protests, both in favor of and against impeachment, have recently turned ugly, with physical altercations becoming increasingly common.Lula himself has recently been implicated in the criminal investigation (known as Operation Car Wash), briefly detained by the federal police for questioning, accused by the former Senate leader of his party (turned informant) of "commanding" a massive bribery and kickback scheme, eavesdropped on by judicial investigators who publicly released recordings of his telephone calls, and charged formally with receiving and hiding improper gifts (including a house and a farm). As a result, his approval ratings in Brazil have dropped precipitously.
But thanks to entrenched support from Brazil's ample poor population, those ratings are still higher than most other nationally prominent politicians (most of whom are fighting off their own corruption allegations), and it is widely believed that Lula will run for president again at the end of Dilma's term whether that's in 2018 as scheduled or earlier if she's impeached or resigns. Nobody who has watched Lula's career including those who want to see him imprisoned can be dismissive of the prospect that he will again be Brazil's president (a new poll released today shows Lula leading the 2018 presidential race along with the evangelical/environmentalist Marina Silva).
Lula vehemently denies all accusations against him and regards himself as a "victim" of Brazil's still-powerful plutocratic class and its dominant media organs, which shape popular opinion. He insists that the targeting of PT is due to the inability of these elites to defeat the party in four straight elections, and their fear that Lula will once again run and win. Two weeks ago, The Intercept published a long article reporting on the scandal and the dangers it poses to Brazilian democracy, which I wrote with Andrew Fishman and David Miranda; last week, we published a condensed version in an op-ed in Brazil's largest newspaper, Folha de São Paulo. The realization that impeachment is being led by, and would elevate, politicians and political parties facing far more serious corruption charges than those aimed at Dilma is spreading, and has stalled the momentum of the pro-impeachment campaign, which, only weeks ago, seemed close to inevitable.
On Friday, at Lula's Institute in São Paulo, I conducted the first one-on-one interview Lula has given since the emergence of these recent controversies. We discussed various aspects of the corruption scandal, the impeachment campaign, the accusations against him, his and PT's political future, and the role of Brazil's dominant right-wing media in inciting a change of government. We also discussed his views on several other hotly debated political issues, including Brazil's new anti-terrorism and spying law, the drug war, the heinous conditions in the country's prison system, LGBT rights, abortion, and the role of corporate donors in Brazilian elections.
Conducted in Portuguese, the 45-minute interview can be watched with English subtitles on the recorder below; a full transcript in English follows:
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This transcript has been edited for content and clarity.
GLENN GREENWALD: Good morning, Mr. President. Thank you for the interview.
LUIZ INÁCIO LULA DA SILVA: Good morning.
GREENWALD: Let's begin with the Operation Car Wash investigation. In 2008, Wall Street's fraud and corruption created a terrible financial crisis. It generated extreme economic suffering for many countries, including Brazil, which continues through to today.
Most incredibly, not a single big businessman went to jail or suffered legal consequences for these crimes. It created the perception that the wealthy and powerful are above the law. Only the poor and disenfranchised are punished for their crimes.
Yet here in Brazil, with Operation Car Wash, we're seeing the opposite: the country's wealthy and powerful going to jail. Billionaires, magnates, members of almost every political party.
I know you have many objections about the ongoing process. I have also reported on how [chief Car Wash] Judge Sérgio Moro's behavior has become political.
But do you agree that there is a positive aspect to this moment? That it is sending a powerful message, saying that all no matter their power, connections, or wealth are subject to that law?
DA SILVA: First, our party, the PT [Workers' Party], the government and I have no reason to be upset about the investigation process because the government carries a lot of responsibility for what is happening. It was during PT's government that we created all the conditions for our institutions to work correctly.
Our government consolidated the Public Prosecutor's Office's autonomy by always nominating a prosecutor that was chosen by his peers. We were the ones who made the Federal Police a functioning institution. We invested in hiring new professionals, intelligence and on the Federal Police's autonomy.
We were the ones who created the government transparency websites. We created a law that allows any journalist to have all the information they want about the government at any time.
We were the ones who strengthened the Public Property Controllership, which is in charge of investigating every ministry and sending their findings to the National Accounts Tribunal. And we were the ones who developed along with the Accounts Tribunal a process that gave them agility in this oversight.
So, first of all, the government has responsibility for everything that is happening.
Second, I believe it is important that for the first time, the wealthy are being arrested. In Brazil, we arrested the poor for stealing bread, but not the rich for stealing a billion. We arrested the poor for stealing medication, but not someone rich for tax evasion.
[url=https://theintercept.imgix.net/wp-uploads/sites/1/2016/04/Greenwald-Lula-bts3.jpg?auto=compress%2Cformat&q=90]Photo: Laura Colucci/Fireworx Media

GREENWALD: Is that the positive side of things?
DA SILVA: Yes, that's the positive side a positive that I believe is very important and that allows us to dream that this will be a serious country someday.
What do I think is negative? That's something I ask myself every single day this investigation goes on. For this investigation to go on, is it really necessary to make "reality TV" out of it, to put up a fireworks display every single day? And never account for the fact that with a headline or a TV segment you could be condemning someone who will later turn out to be innocent?
Is it possible to conduct the same investigation, arrest the same people without the pyrotechnics? I believe it is.
Is it possible to analyze how much this operation is costing, how much it will return to our public accounts and how much it is costing the country? How much this operation is costing our GDP, unemployment rates, what investments fled the country.
GREENWALD: But do you believe this process is about destroying PT? Because 60 percent of the accused politicians belong to PP, a right-wing party, not PT.
DA SILVA: I will go into this matter about PT because I hope there will be a specific question coming. First of all, when you create a law, establish conditions for institutions to work properly, there is no protection the only protection one has is following the law. It is doing things right, not making mistakes. And if PT makes mistakes, PT has to pay for it like any other political party or any other person that doesn't belong to a party, because after all, the law applies to everyone. That's the way to consolidate democracy in Brazil and anywhere else on Earth.
Secondly, what I find odd with plea bargaining and I denounced that in December of 2014, it is not something new what I find odd is how information is selectively leaked. And it is usually against the PT. When there is an accusation against another political party, the press puts it out in small print. It is on TV for five seconds. When it is something against PT, you'll have 20 minutes on television, the front page of every newspaper, making it crystal clear that for the past two years there's been an attempt to criminalize the PT.
GREENWALD: Yes, we will discuss this in a few minutes. But first I want to ask: On several occasions, you have used the word "coup" to describe this impeachment process against President Dilma. The Brazilian Constitution explicitly allows for the possibility of impeachment. And this process is being conducted under the authority of the Supreme Court, with 11 members: eight appointed by PT, three by yourself and another five by President Dilma. And this court has ruled several important decisions in your favor. How could this process be called a coup?
A demonstrator holds a Brazilian flag with a sticker that reads in Portuguese, "Down with the coup, impeachment no," during a protest in support of President Rousseff and former President Lula da Silva in São Paulo, Brazil, March 31, 2016.
Photo: Andre Penner/AP

DA SILVA: It has also ruled against us many times. Let me tell you …
GREENWALD: Every court does that. But how can it be a coup when it is happening under the authority of a court?
DA SILVA: I'll tell you why it is a coup. It is a coup because while the Brazilian Constitution allows for an impeachment, it is necessary for the person to have committed what we call high crimes and misdemeanors. And President Dilma did not commit a high crime or a misdemeanor. Therefore, what is happening is an attempt by some to take power by disrespecting the popular vote.
Anyone has the right to want to become president, anyone. They just have to run. I lost three elections three! I didn't take any shortcuts. I waited 12 years to become president. Anyone who wants to become president, instead of trying to take down the president, can run in an election. I ran three of them and didn't get angry.
That's why I think the impeachment is illegal. There is no high crime or misdemeanor. As a matter of fact, I believe that these people want to remove Dilma from office by disrespecting the law. Carrying out, the way I see it, a political coup. That's what it is: a political coup.
GREENWALD: They can't win the election. I want to ask: The PT requested the impeachment of the three presidents that came before you. Do you believe that those three presidents were involved in high crimes and misdemeanors that justified an impeachment?
DA SILVA: No. PT requested the impeachment of Collor and it went through because he had committed high crimes and misdemeanors. With Fernando Henrique Cardoso, the Chamber of Deputies didn't accept the request. So it died then and there. Maybe because there weren't high crimes and misdemeanors. Now, this impeachment request could've been denied too.
Why was it requested? Why did they open the process and send it to the commission? Because the president of the chamber was angered that PT didn't vote with him in the Ethics Committee and he decided to get back at PT by trying to manufacture the impeachment of President Dilma, which I see as a gigantic abuse in this political scenario.
Meeting for presidential elections in São Bernardo do Campo circa 1989.
Photo: Gamma-Rapho/Getty Images

GREENWALD: I want to ask about Eduardo Cunha, the president of the Chamber of Deputies. The evidence of him being involved in corruption is overwhelming. They discovered his Swiss bank accounts with millions of dollars he can't explain. He clearly lied to Congress when he denied having offshore bank accounts. How can one explain to foreigners and to Brazilians how such a corrupt politician can not only remain a leader of the National Congress, but also spearhead the impeachment process against the president?
DA SILVA: What's even graver is how the press treats him with normalcy, and doesn't treat Dilma that way. In truth, Dilma is being judged by people who have been accused of crimes. And she hasn't got a single accusation against her. The accusation against her is one of budgetary impropriety. And this accusation isn't a crime and her budget hasn't even been reviewed by the National Congress.
GREENWALD: Explain that to me, because I think there are many foreigners who can't understand it.
DA SILVA: There is no explanation apart from some people in this country being insane. The National Congress could show some self-respect by taking into account that they are in no political condition to carry Dilma's trial as they have. Eduardo Cunha doesn't have the respectability, not from Congress, nor from society, to spearhead this. But it is going on, sometimes even under protection by some sectors of the national media, which I believe is very serious.
What worries me most in all of this is that Brazil has only 31 years of democracy. It has been our longest period of uninterrupted democracy. And what we are doing right now is trying to play with democracy. And we shouldn't play with democracy, because every time we play with democracy, every time we deny politics, what comes after is worse.
GREENWALD: There is strong evidence of corruption within the parties leading the opposition against PT's government that is clear but do you agree that there is also a serious corruption issue within the PT?
DA SILVA: Let me tell you one thing. So far, there is plea bargaining in a case against PT's treasurer. He was implicated during a plea bargain and that case is still awaiting trial. He says he didn't do it. Well, in this plea process you have the bargaining. A jailed businessman can get out by trying to stick blame on someone else. Any day, someone can accuse you of receiving money from a company.
What I find fantastic and ironic is that it is as if companies have two types of accounts: One with clean money and another one with corrupt money. The one containing the clean money is for PSDB, PMDB, and the other parties. Meanwhile, the one with the dirty money is for PT. To believe this is insanity, to say the least. It is, at the very least, a failure to comprehend this historical moment … and I'm not saying PT is free of blame, and if PT is guilty, it will have to pay like any other party. PT isn't immune what I am saying is that in this moment …
GREENWALD: But there is a serious problem.
DA SILVA: In this historical moment, what exists is an attempt to criminalize PT, to remove Dilma and avoid any possibility of Lula ever coming back as a presidential candidate in this country.
GREENWALD: I understand your reasoning and everything you just said, but I want to be very clear about my question. Do you believe … there are very serious problems, I think even worse cases of corruption in other parties, including the ones spearheading the impeachment process against Dilma. But you, as one of PT's founding members, the most important person in PT along with President Dilma, do you acknowledge there is a serious corruption problem within your party?
DA SILVA: I believe there is a problem in my party. I don't believe … let me tell you one thing, when the mensalão scandal began, certain sectors of the media said this was the biggest corruption scandal in the history of planet Earth. Then the process started and it became harder and harder to prove.
Then, to consolidate their case, they came up with the notion of "prevalence of fact," the theory of "prevalence of fact." Which meant they didn't have to provide any proof. You run the organization? Then you are responsible. That's how it happened during the mensalão scandal. Now they are constructing another theory. See, we ran our campaign in October 2014 and a magazine published the cover: "Lula and Dilma knew about all of it." Do you recall it?
GREENWALD: Yes, of course.
DA SILVA: Let me tell you one thing. It's been two years. Every single day there is an article, every single day there is a tweet, every single day I receive the information: "Look, they arrested so-and-so who is going to tell all about how Lula is involved."
GREENWALD: Just to make this point clear: The former PT leader in the Senate, Delcídio Amaral, said you knew about the bribery schemes and commanded them.
DA SILVA: Let me tell you, Delcídio wanted to get out of jail. Delcídio was someone with strong ties to Petrobras, even before PT. He was strongly linked to Petrobras during the Fernando Henrique Cardoso presidency. He had a strong connection with Petrobrás because he was this field for a long time. To sum it up: Delcídio lied shamelessly.
GREENWALD: Why?
DA SILVA: To get out of jail. Obviously, to get out of jail.