20-11-2018, 06:40 PM
Thanks to Mr. Dagosto for his pointed yet very helpful questions about the Jupiter missiles. I don't agree that my analysis is (1) Nazi-obsessed, (2) silly or (3) that the Jupiter missile situation was just PR.
If one lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, one knows that there was nothing silly about it. Everyone on the planet was pretty much scared s***less.
In order to clarify things, let me list the following points:
1. As quoted by Mr. Dagosto "but USAF personnel controlled arming the nuclear warheads". What did that mean?
2. The Supreme Allied Commander (SACEUR) was both commander of all US forces in Europe and also nominal commander of NATO in Europe. He wore "two hats". So if he was in control of the warheads, were they in control of the US or NATO? Good luck with figuring that out.
3. During the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis (according to the book Defcon 2 by Polmar), General Thomas Power went on the military radio and announced that he had taken over the authority to launch the nukes from the civilian authorities. (He apparently could do that).
4. Under the control of USAF personnel meant control by General Lauris Norstad, General Curtis LeMay, General Thomas Power and General Lyman Lemnitzer. Clearly, neither Eisenhower, and Kennedy (especially Kennedy) did not personally control the nukes in Europe. (All these Generals despised or ignored JFK which everyone on this site knows).
5. As the North Koreans and Iranians are discovering, just getting nukes is less than half the challenge. Getting a secure delivery system is the tough part.
6. If the Cuban Missile Crisis had not occured, how would JFK have gotten those missiles back from NATO? NATO must have voted to install the missiles (after a long struggle). Would they have to vote to return the missiles back to the US?
7. It is not silly to suggest that NATO could have kept the missiles (without warheads). They could have installed conventional warheads and kept them. This would have preserved the right of NATO to have such missiles.
8. There were at least five ways NATO could have gotten nuclear warheads for them: (a) got "loaner" warheads from the UK on a basis identical to the US (i.e. under shared control) (b) done the same with France who had nukes © gotten a few nukes from Israel who had nukes (d) have Germany develop their own nuke warheads and (e) have NATO develop their own warheads. All of these possibilities would have been a can of worms for the US.
9. General Lauris Norstad, the main proponent of NATO as a Fourth Nuclear Power was fired by JFK and McNamara in 1962.
10. The successor to Norstad would have been (by seniority) General Earl Wheeler. But Konrad Adenauer and the British Government intervened to get General Lyman Lemnnitzer instead.
11. "Lem" served the entirety of WWII under British General Harold Alexander (who was also Governor-General of Canada later). "Lem" also partnered with Allen Dulles to cut a "separate peace" with Nazi General Karl Wolff who he worked with personally. This was an act of treason done behind the back of FDR.
12. McNamara and JFK cancelled the Skybolt Missile in November, 1962. This outraged the UK and deprived them of a secure nuclear delivery system just as the Jupiter decision had done with NATO.
13. This whole picture adds up to JFK regaining control over the launching of a nuclear war. This is not a silly issue--it is not a PR issue.
14. If the Germans (possibly through NATO which they controlled in 1962-1963)
had decided to push for keeping a missile system, they would not have lacked for technical skills to do it.
The Jupiter missile was designed by SS Nazi General Wernher von Braun. The US Saturn missile was managed by Nazi veteran Arthur Rudolph (who was deported back to Germany later in life). The supervisor of Michael Paine, Nazi General Walter Dornberger, was head of research for Bell Aerospace. Upon retirement, Dornberger returned to Germany where he was buried.
With whom would these ex-Nazis side if it came to a tug-of-war between the US and Germany over missiles? Would JFK even want to make that phone call to von Braun in order to find out?
15. I dont' think I'm "Nazi obsessed". Hitler's right hand man from the Russian front, General Adolf Heusinger was the permanent chairman of the NATO Military Committee in 1962-1963. It would have been him who got the news regarding the Jupiter Missiles. (Also read The Skorzeny Papers---also "Nazi-Obsessed" but true). His position made him the top ranking military official in NATO, (even higher than the SACEUR Lemnitzer).
16. After thinking though the answers to the very incisive questions posed by Mr. Dagosto, it becomes obvious to me that the only way JFK could have solved this horrendous problem of Nukes in Europe was to collude with Khrushchev in setting up the Cuban Missile Crisis. This way, his decision on the Jupiters became a "fait accompli" and no one in their right mind could have questioned it. Any other negotiations or strategy would have been doomed to failure.
17. All of this is a tribute to the brilliance of both JFK and McNamara (and maybe LBJ) in keeping the Germans from getting access to nukes. This accomplishment has endured for 50 plus years and maybe has even contributed to saving the planet.
James Lateer
If one lived through the Cuban Missile Crisis, one knows that there was nothing silly about it. Everyone on the planet was pretty much scared s***less.
In order to clarify things, let me list the following points:
1. As quoted by Mr. Dagosto "but USAF personnel controlled arming the nuclear warheads". What did that mean?
2. The Supreme Allied Commander (SACEUR) was both commander of all US forces in Europe and also nominal commander of NATO in Europe. He wore "two hats". So if he was in control of the warheads, were they in control of the US or NATO? Good luck with figuring that out.
3. During the height of the Cuban Missile Crisis (according to the book Defcon 2 by Polmar), General Thomas Power went on the military radio and announced that he had taken over the authority to launch the nukes from the civilian authorities. (He apparently could do that).
4. Under the control of USAF personnel meant control by General Lauris Norstad, General Curtis LeMay, General Thomas Power and General Lyman Lemnitzer. Clearly, neither Eisenhower, and Kennedy (especially Kennedy) did not personally control the nukes in Europe. (All these Generals despised or ignored JFK which everyone on this site knows).
5. As the North Koreans and Iranians are discovering, just getting nukes is less than half the challenge. Getting a secure delivery system is the tough part.
6. If the Cuban Missile Crisis had not occured, how would JFK have gotten those missiles back from NATO? NATO must have voted to install the missiles (after a long struggle). Would they have to vote to return the missiles back to the US?
7. It is not silly to suggest that NATO could have kept the missiles (without warheads). They could have installed conventional warheads and kept them. This would have preserved the right of NATO to have such missiles.
8. There were at least five ways NATO could have gotten nuclear warheads for them: (a) got "loaner" warheads from the UK on a basis identical to the US (i.e. under shared control) (b) done the same with France who had nukes © gotten a few nukes from Israel who had nukes (d) have Germany develop their own nuke warheads and (e) have NATO develop their own warheads. All of these possibilities would have been a can of worms for the US.
9. General Lauris Norstad, the main proponent of NATO as a Fourth Nuclear Power was fired by JFK and McNamara in 1962.
10. The successor to Norstad would have been (by seniority) General Earl Wheeler. But Konrad Adenauer and the British Government intervened to get General Lyman Lemnnitzer instead.
11. "Lem" served the entirety of WWII under British General Harold Alexander (who was also Governor-General of Canada later). "Lem" also partnered with Allen Dulles to cut a "separate peace" with Nazi General Karl Wolff who he worked with personally. This was an act of treason done behind the back of FDR.
12. McNamara and JFK cancelled the Skybolt Missile in November, 1962. This outraged the UK and deprived them of a secure nuclear delivery system just as the Jupiter decision had done with NATO.
13. This whole picture adds up to JFK regaining control over the launching of a nuclear war. This is not a silly issue--it is not a PR issue.
14. If the Germans (possibly through NATO which they controlled in 1962-1963)
had decided to push for keeping a missile system, they would not have lacked for technical skills to do it.
The Jupiter missile was designed by SS Nazi General Wernher von Braun. The US Saturn missile was managed by Nazi veteran Arthur Rudolph (who was deported back to Germany later in life). The supervisor of Michael Paine, Nazi General Walter Dornberger, was head of research for Bell Aerospace. Upon retirement, Dornberger returned to Germany where he was buried.
With whom would these ex-Nazis side if it came to a tug-of-war between the US and Germany over missiles? Would JFK even want to make that phone call to von Braun in order to find out?
15. I dont' think I'm "Nazi obsessed". Hitler's right hand man from the Russian front, General Adolf Heusinger was the permanent chairman of the NATO Military Committee in 1962-1963. It would have been him who got the news regarding the Jupiter Missiles. (Also read The Skorzeny Papers---also "Nazi-Obsessed" but true). His position made him the top ranking military official in NATO, (even higher than the SACEUR Lemnitzer).
16. After thinking though the answers to the very incisive questions posed by Mr. Dagosto, it becomes obvious to me that the only way JFK could have solved this horrendous problem of Nukes in Europe was to collude with Khrushchev in setting up the Cuban Missile Crisis. This way, his decision on the Jupiters became a "fait accompli" and no one in their right mind could have questioned it. Any other negotiations or strategy would have been doomed to failure.
17. All of this is a tribute to the brilliance of both JFK and McNamara (and maybe LBJ) in keeping the Germans from getting access to nukes. This accomplishment has endured for 50 plus years and maybe has even contributed to saving the planet.
James Lateer