Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM ASKS A MODEST QUESTION REQUESTING CLARIFICATION

Jack,

You have suggested I read HARVEY & LEE, which I am doing with considerable astonishment. I am very glad you are reasserting here that it was LEE who lost his tooth. I have just posted pages 91-92 and page 532 from HARVEY & LEE. I find it of more than passing interest that it states that HARVEY moved to Ft. Worth in June 1954 and his friend, Edward Voebel, never saw him again (p. 91).

That fall, LEE enrolled at the same junior high school HARVEY had been attending. Voebel knew him, too, and remembered that LEE liked to fight -- not starting them, but ending them. And that on one occasion, LEE was hit by Robin Riley. His tooth was knocked loose and he even lost it. Indeed, Lillian Murret remembered that Marguerite had to take him to the dentist and she (Lillian) paid for the bill herself (p. 92).

What I find odd about this, Jack, is that Lillian was the aunt of HARVEY, not of LEE. So what is LILLIAN MURRET, with whom HARVEY will stay when he comes to New Orleans (p. 532), doing paying a dental bill for LEE? You have made much of the missing tooth and that, because the body exhumed from the grave did not have a missing tooth, it could not have been LEE. So why is HARVEY'S AUNT paying for LEE'S DENTAL BILL?

Judyth, of course, has already responded about whether or not HARVEY
--the man she knew in New Orleans--could drive including this reply:

Lee Harvey Oswald could drive. Unless you now include the entire
Murret family as knowing "Lee" as well as "Harvey", how does Mr.
Armstrong explain these records:

April/May 1963 - Oswald drives his uncle Murret's car. (WC Vol 2, pp.
503-504) Oswald's cousin, John Murret, let him drive his car sometime
between May and July. (WC Vol 8, p. 151)

Judyth Baker has also stated to researchers that Oswald could drive, and
did so, with her, on three occasions. One such occasion has entered the
record:

The opening remarks at he Clay Shaw trial mention that occasion, saying
it was not Marina Oswald with Oswald at that time, and that the
prosecution wished they knew who the woman was, that she would stand
forth.

At that time, Judyth Baker was in bed trying to save a pregnancy, and
they had no TV or newspaper access. She did not know about this appeal.

Since it was LEE who had the tooth knocked out, not HARVEY, as you make very clear, why was HARVEY'S AUNT LILLIAN PAYING FOR LEE'S DENTAL BILL? And if she knew that "MARGUERITE" had taken him to the dentist, DID LILLIAN ALSO KNOW LEE'S MOTHER "MARGUERITE", TOO? If there is an answer to this question, I want to know. I want to get this straight.

Not only do we have EDWARD VOELBEL knowing both HARVEY and LEE, who were enrolled at the same junior high school consecutive semesters (but not at the same time), but LEE has a tooth knocked out, of which LILLIAN, who is HARVEY'S AUNT, is aware, even knowing that "MARGUERITE", LEE'S MOTHER, had taken LEE to the dentist, for which LILLIAN PAID?

Are you telling me that LILLIAN was not only HARVEY'S AUNT but also LEE'S AUNT? And that LILLIAN knew not only HARVEY'S MOTHER, who was named "MARGUERITE", but also LEE'S MOTHER, who was also named "MARGUERITE"? As Judyth has asked above, are you and Armstrong telling us that the entire MURRET FAMILY knew both HARVEY and LEE?

Jim

Jim...you make so many errors here that I do not have time to respond to
them. I have a doctor appointment in two hours.

But...IT WAS LEE WHO HAD THE TOOTH KNOCKED OUT, NOT HARVEY.
FERRIE KNEW HARVEY, NOT LEE. IF FERRIE KNOCKED OUT A TOOTH
OF HARVEY, IT IS UNKNOWN, SINCE THE EXHUMATION PHOTOS SHOW
HARVEY. JOHN DOCUMENTS THAT LEE LOST THE TOOTH IN A FIGHT AT
BEAUREGARD JUNIOR HIGH. HE DID NOT "RESTORE" THE TOOTH USING
MILK.

JOHN HEAVILY DOCUMENTS THAT HARVEY COULD NOT DRIVE. IT WAS
LEE WHO COULD DRIVE.

It is very difficult to respond to false allegations, even if I had time.

Jack

JIM REPLIES TO JACK AND BARB ABOUT "THE MISSING TOOTH" AND MUCH, MUCH MORE

I have now read pages 91-92 of HARVEY & LEE, which seem to imply that "Lee" suffered a permanent
loss of tooth. What struck me is that the alleged difference between "Lee" and "Harvey" is explainable
by the scenrio Judyth has sketched of the tooth having been restored. Are there records of either of
the alleged "Oswalds" having a false tooth? Are there adult photos of "Lee" as opposed to "Harvey",
because I have considerable reservations about the photo studies that have been discussed, where it
seems to me, apart from a few that do not belong in these sets, they may all be of the same person.

Since I am responding to your concerns and concede that my description may have been overblown,
how about reciprocating in relation to the question that Howard has raised about your having found
the abstract of a paper that Judyth had said she had presented, but which--like every other claim she
has made--has been vigorously disputed by someone on this forum or elsewhere? Would you be so
kind as to summarize the content of the paper whose abstract you discovered? That you have found
substantiation for some of her claims leads me to believe you may not be as biased as I have thought.

Reading more of HARVEY & LEE, I am getting a better sense for why Jack finds it impossible to even
talk about these things without making explicit his reference to "Lee" or to "Harvey", because John is
relentless in his usage of those names. It seems to me that Judyth's knowledge of the man she knew
in New Orleans--whom Jack and John call "Harvey"--does not depend on the refutation of the possible
existence of the other, but clearly does call into question some of the traits attributed to him, including
his place of birth, whether he could drive, and such, but not necessarily refuting their entire scenario.

It would certainly be a good idea, however, if one or the other of you were more responsive to some
of the points upon which Judyth appears to possess superior knowledge, such as Jack's false claim
that he was "undesirably discharged" (post #904), his false claim about the "index" in his attempt to
shield John from my criticism (posts #777 and #925), his false claim that we do not know how Lee
traveled to New Orleans (post #926), and his false claim about "Harvey" being unable to drive (post
#928), for example, which undermines any prospect for rational discussion of all of this (post #785).

I also believe that Judyth has raised legitimate questions about the photographic record that should not
be swept under the rug, as post #704, #830, #876, and #878, are serious contributions. I know her to
extremely gifted and knowledgeable about the man she knew in New Orleans and her arguments, such
as her eye color study in post #736, are brilliant and deserve to be acknowledged. I am deeply troubled
Robert's role in all of this has not been examined with more diligence. Posts as early as #469, #676, #679,
#689, #800, and especially #813 offer indications of the reasons for my suspicions. Perhaps David Lifton
will take pains to track Robert's role relative to his brother, which appears to me to be the key to the case.

There are obvious disadvantages to my becoming involved in this, since I have not been exposed to the
interrogations of Judyth in the past. For that very reason, however, I believe I have a contribution that
others cannot make. Sometimes a fresh look with a new pair of eyes can make a difference. I believe
that she has not been given a fair shake in the past, which I am attempting to provide here. And that I
am not immersed in the conception of "Harvey & Lee" also grants the intellectual freedom to consider a
different pair of "Oswalds", Robert and Lee, which I would like to believe may provide the stimulus for a
new look at the other brother who, in my estimation, is the ideal candidate to have impersonated Lee.

[quote name='Barb Junkkarinen' post='188873' date='Apr 5 2010, 07:44 AM']
[quote name='James H. Fetzer' post='188826' date='Apr 4 2010, 11:50 PM']
So why did you bring it up again now, right after this blockbuster about Lee's missing tooth? You trade in trivia, while Judyth is making major contributions. Linda has it right: You post nothing significant because you have nothing significant to post. Your conduct here is utterly transparent.

Oh please. There are many issues being discussed in this thread. I was responding to something Pamela said ... and used that as an example for her to tell us all how I "cherrypick" ... as I had posted it many many pages and posts ago, so it was already here.

But, I do stand in awe ... for you actually seem unaware that the debate over the "two Oswald's" .... Harvey vs Lee, the 2 schools, etc... and yes, the tooth ... is very old news! Your "blockbuster" has been discussed and discussed over the years. How can you really not already know this stuff ... and that it has been hotly debated over the years? Funny ... I even found an exchange Doug Weldon and I had on the issue in 1999 ... when someone else mentioned putting a tooth in milk so it could be put back into the socket. Ah, but it's Judyth's "blockbuster" that is the news and importance here, you'll say!

But this is not the first time Judyth has written/spoken about this ... she has on Rich's forum, on BlackOp and on the moderated group. Back as far as at least 2002.

It really astounds me that you seem to think this is some new groundbreaking news on Judyth's part ... and that you are so unaware of her story over the years. Yet you chastise others as if you are teaching them!

Her story was a little different then ... changed in midstream when a problem with her chronology was pointed out. First she had LHO telling her all about how Ferrie had slugged him and at least loosened the tooth after a CAP gathering at Ferrie's house (in her post here now she says LHO rode with Ferrie on a Harley to Ferrie's house after a CAP gathering) and then a week later it was knocked out by someone at school. She notes there was a famous photo showing it. The problem is that the photo was taken, and the school incident occurred, months before LHO attended CAP meetings and met Ferrie.

At one point she has Ferrie telling LHO about milk, at another time she has an unnamed person at school advising him to put the tooth in milk.

I did a post in 2004 that includes a chronology of it all ... something Dave Reitzes had put together of quotes and posted in 2002. Looks like most of this story was related by Judyth on the jfkResearch forum ... and Dave had those posts.

It is long, so here is the link for anyone who is interested. I could post it all here, but if this works for everyone, there is no need.

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...r%3Ajunkkarinen

Kind of a wonder that Judyth wanted to delve back into this one, especially with the new change, though she did now say she may have mixed up some small details. :-)

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