Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[James H. Fetzer]

JIM APPEALS TO JACK TO STOP A CAMPAIGN THAT IS DISCREDITING HIMSELF

Jack,

Ed Haslam spend more than a decade doing research to track down what happened to
Mary Sherman. Time after time, on this forum, during this thread, claims that Judyth
has made, which appeared initially to be very implausible, have turned out to be true.
In post #1583, Judyth even provided a citation about the common use of marmosets:



"The common marmoset (Callithrix jacchus) is a small, nonendangered New World primate that is native to
Brazil and has been used extensively in biomedical research. Historically the common marmoset has been used
in neuroscience, reproductive biology, infectious disease, and behavioral research. Recently, the species has been
used increasingly in drug development and safety assessment. Advantages relate to size, cost, husbandry, and
biosafety issues as well as unique physiologic differences that may be used in model development. Availability
and ease of breeding in captivity suggest that they may represent an alternative species to more traditional
nonhuman primates. The marmoset models commonly used in biomedical research are presented, with
emphasis on those that may provide an alternative to traditional nonhuman primate species."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14524414

Again, in post #1569, I pointed out that, although her claims about Lee's "reading list" seemed far-fetched, she was right:

In a paragraph below in my response to Bernice, I made the following observation about Lee's reading list:

Other aspects of her story may involve embellishments, such as recollecting the details of conversations they
had on various occasions. I certainly agree that the "reading list" Judyth provided appears to be a bit much,
where it reads more like a "wish list" than actual reading by the man who was killed in Dallas. Yet, even here,
Judyth has some support for what she has to tell us in the form of a report by Marina about what Lee read.

Time after time, points she has made that seemed initially implausible have turned out to be true. Lee's list,
no matter how implausible, was substantiated by the FBI and became a formal document in the hearings:



So I think we have one more illustration of the dramatic difference it makes when claims that initially appear
to be implausible nevertheless turn out to be true. Once again, Judyth has been vindicated, where what she
contributed to the previous post was blurbs about the contents of those book. I have known Doug Weldon to
be fair-minded in the past. I would like to have some indication that he is willing to respond to new evidence!

And in post #1651, I pointed out that the theory of HARVEY & LEE is, if anything, even less "logical" than Judyth's story:

SOME REFLECTIONS ON THE APPEAL TO WHAT IS "LOGICAL" AND WHAT IS NOT

Truth can be stranger than fiction. When you look where you've been, sometimes
you had no idea where you were going. Judyth was talented at cancer research.
She was lured to New Orleans by Alton Ochsner. There was a problem with the
polio vaccine, which had to be treated covertly to avoid alarming the public. Dr.
Mary Sherman was engaged in research there. The experiments did involve mice
and monkeys. David Ferrie and others were involved in conducting that research.
It involved the use of a linear particle accelerator. Someone had to have assisted
her. Judyth and Lee were hired by Riley's on the same day. Judyth kept the time
cards and other records for Oswald. Anna Lewis has testified that she and David,
her husband, even "double-dated" with Judyth and Lee. Mary Sherman was killed,
apparently using a linear particle accelerator. The death scene at her apartment
was staged. Ochsner did inoculate his grandchildren, killing one, while inducing
polio in the other. Judyth does appear to have been summarily sacked after she
protested the use of a prisoner in a (fatal) experiment without informed consent.
David Ferrie appears to have been silenced; and Ruby, too, using the bio-weapon.
And a second "Judyth Vary Baker" was used to impersonate the real Judyth Vary.

What could be a greater stretch than the idea of "two Oswalds", both having the
same name, one called "Harvey", the other "Lee", who even attended the same
schools, though not at the same time, where one was born in Hungary, physically
unimposing but intellectually able, who spoke fluent Russian but could not drive,
while the other had a propensity for violence, could drive but could not speak any
Russian and who had no interest in political philosophy or matters intellectual,
both of whom had mothers by the same name, where one of them ("Lee") lost
a tooth at Beauregard Junior High School, but Lillian Murret, the aunt of the
other ("Harvey"), paid for his dental bill, where his brother, Robert, who looks
exactly like him, is not supposed to be related genetically and who could have
effortlessly impersonated him did not, even though, after the assassination, he
would give lectures and publish a book falsely blaming his brother for a crime
he did not commit, where not only Aunt Lillian but Robert, Marguerite, and
Marina all knew of the existence of both "Harvey" and "Lee", even though none
of them ever uttered a peep! Neither of these stories is "logical" in the sense
Jack intends. Yet, I submit, at least one of these stories appears to be true.

But, of course, as you demonstrate with every post, not only are you unwilling
to read DR. MARY'S MONKEY so you could be brought up-to-speed on some of
the most basic aspects of the case--where you seem to pride yourself on your
ignorance--but time after time, when one or another of your attacks upon her
has proven to be misguided--where you must have posted close to a hundred
by now, none of which appears to have been well-founded--you are not even
willing to concede that you were wrong--not about marmosets, not about the
reading list, not about the "index" in John's book, not about the wrong date of
the founding of the Warren Commission, not about the story of "Lee"'s missing
tooth, not about Judyth's eye-color study, not about her observations regarding
photographs upon which you have relied to make the case for "two Oswalds"--
the list goes on and on, Jack. You are not even willing to concede that HARVEY
& LEE presents a theory that is even more implausible on its face than Judyth's
story. Yet you persist in repeating ignorant claims that you would not make if
you had read Ed's book and attacking Judyth without acknowledging when she
has been right. These are not the signs of responsible research, Jack, but the
signs of someone whose commitment to a predetermined conclusion has far,
far exceeded his rational response to logic and evidence. Lifton can't save you,
either, because he confronts problems of credibility of his own. And where will
you be when he finally comes clean about HARVEY & LEE? I am sorry to say it,
Jack, but you are discrediting yourself with every post. Relative to the method
of tenacity, in contrast with scientific reasoning, you are, alas, the poster child!

Jim

[quote name='Jack White' post='190885' date='Apr 26 2010, 01:49 PM']
Thanks, David. I find the most incredible of the items you list is that JVB was unaware
of the Garrison investigation back in 1967. Every newspaper and magazine and TV
newscast carried details daily. I even bought 3 month subscriptions to the New Orleans
Item and the New Orleans Times-Picayune to get fuller coverage. At that time the
assassination was fresh in everyone's minds, many of the players were still alive, and
even the grocery story tabloids had front page coverage every week. Knowing about
the CONTROVERSIAL Garrison trial was unavoidable. Garrison was even a guest on
the Carson Tonight show.

Someone who had personal acquaintances with David Ferrie, Guy Banister, Clay
Shaw, Lee Oswald, Reily Coffee, et al had to be living on another planet to be UNAWARE
of the Clay Shaw Trial. UNBELIEVABLE!

Jack

[quote name='David Lifton' post='190873' date='Apr 26 2010, 09:11 AM']
Kevin Greelee:

I just read your post (#1450, dated 4/21/10) which quotes two of my posts (on the Alt.conspiracy discussion group, now available via Google) --some ten years ago (specifically, one on 10/26/2000, and the other on 12/31/2001). These posts were written at a time not only when my recollections of my March 4 2000, conversation with Judyth were fresh in my mind, but also at a time when I probably had a thick pile of notes and transcript material at hand.

As you correctly quote, Judyth made the following assertions in that March, 2000 phone call:

ITEM: That she co-wrote a science fiction story with Lee Oswald

ITEM: That, to beef up security for Kennedy, Lee fomented the Adlai Stevenson incident in Dallas

ITEM: That she, Judyth, had been offered $1 million by some tabloid for her story

ITEM: That despite her connection with all these events back in 1963, she never heard of the Garrison investigation at the time it was occurring (starting around Feb 1967)

ITEM: That at the "cancer lab" at Dave Ferrie¹s apartment, they "processed" 4,000 mice per month.

ITEM: That she arranged to check Lee out of work (and so that's why the time clock records, to be found in the 26 volumes)
appear as they do. (To anyone interested: There are certain clusters of times,which--IMHO-- Judyth explains by inserting herself into a "story" built around that data).

ITEM: That in connection with her alleged knowledge of Lee's visit to lecture at the Jesuit college at Spring Hill, Alabama,
that Robert Kennedy made a phone call there. (Yes, dear reader, blink twice if you must, but no, you're not imagining what I just wrote:
in the March, 2000 phone call, Judyth alleged that Robert Kennedy, the Attorney General of the United States,
called the Jesuit College at which Oswald spoke, and for some undefined reason, in connection with LHO's visit there).

ITEM: That she (and her co-workers in Florida) "knew" the
assassination was going to happen, and so prepared to watch it on TV.

As you noted, the links to the full text of my two posts were:

for October 26,2000:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...ca7348809?hl=en

and for Dec 31 2001

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...c1cb707a4?hl=en

When I clicked on the links you provided, they came right up on my screen.

* * *

Again, thanks for your post, and for the URL links that bring these two posts--from 10 years ago--right onto the computer screen. I had completely forgotten about these details, or that I had analyzed the conversation I had had with Judyth in such detail, and, finally, that I had written these posts. Its hard to believe that ten years have passed!

And of course you are right: with regard to my own skepticism about Judyth and her various claims, it is incorrect for anyone to focus just on the "Cancun" matter as "the reason" I rejected her entire story (as if that was the only problem!). As these posts amply demonstrate, it was much more than her claim that Lee Oswald said that they (she and Judyth) would/should meet in Cancun (the resort which did not then exist, aside from whether some primitive village by that name did exist) that lay behind my own conclusions about Judyth--i.e., that she lacked credibility, could not/should not be taken seriously, and my own conclusions that she was a fantasist.

One other point: I am not saying any of these things to hurt anyone individually. Its just that I have spent too much time on the Kennedy case connecting the dots, and attempting to do real research--and believe me, that is hard enough--and so when some intruder enters the picture, claiming that they were “on the grassy knoll,” or “in the autopsy room” or—in this instance—in the life of Lee Oswald, (who was, obviously, a major player in this affair, even if he was framed for a crime he did not commit) I must raise my hand and say “I object.” It is easy to argue about the evidence with someone with whose theories I disagree. But I simply cannot and will not stand idly by and watch someone mess up the historical record by bearing false witness.

DSL
4/26/10; 2 AM
Los Angeles, CA[/quote]
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