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Richard Case Nagell - More Than Meets The Eye
#51
Vasilios, that is a very interesting take on the Nagel/Oswald/Soviet angle. Definitely some thing to think about.
And I agree with what Charles says about any system not being a monolithic entity. Clearly, it was not in the interests of the Soviets to have JFK murdered any more than it was in the interests of the American people. Peace is in every one's interest. Except those that benefit from war. And we know they were in both camps.

I think that Oswald went to Mexico but I am not convinced that he went to the consulates. HP Albarelli is bringing out a new book early next year about high strangeness in the JFK case and he goes over some of the Mexico ground. It will be interesting to see what comes up.

I just don't think Oswald was some one the Soviets would have wanted to use for their own ends operationally. Though they may have given both him and Nagel refuge and a debrief later.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
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#52
Magda, Albert,

Again, you're making the same miscalculation that Vasilios makes.

"The Soviets" is a meaningless concept.

Would you suggest seriously that "the Americans" is a valid description of the forces that dictated "U.S." Cold War policy and cultural essence?

Who are "the Americans"? John Kennedy? Curtis Lemay? David Rockefeller? Thomas Merton? The Duponts? Barry Goldwater? Adlai Stevenson? The GOP? The Democrats? Addie Mae Collins, Denise McNair, Carole Robertson, and Cynthia Wesley?

Charles
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#53
Agreed Charles. I'm being sloppy and using shorthand. At this stage I don't have a noun for it or the names of the people who might inhabit it. Stalin got rid of a few genuine threats and a few innocents. As for who was left in the post war period I am very sketchy on and time is not on my side these days.
"The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways. The point, however, is to change it." Karl Marx

"He would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies. When asked in court whether she knew that Lord Astor had denied having sex with her.

“I think it would be a good idea” Ghandi, when asked about Western Civilisation.
Reply
#54
I agree with Charles' statement at #47 above:

the political assassination of Nikita Khrushchev came at the hands of the same "unspeakable" supra-national entity that murdered JFK, and that said entity so thoroughly permeates nation structures and systems as to effectively co-direct them in competition with the official myths' characters


Just now listening to an eleven minute diatribe by Larry Elder at Chris Matthews re the latter's new book on JFK. Elders attacks from the premise all the heroics of JFK were necessary due to his errors in judgment: PT-109, BOP, summit, missile crisis et cetera.

This after Chris Matthews regaled us with his own diatribe against "conspiracy theorists"--despite his supposed pose as ideologically simpatico with Kennedy.

On the one hand Elder represents the character assassination of the right; on the other, Matthews shows the bullet-headed blindness of the establishment left.

But that's the mundane ground game.

While I have come to see, given the permission to Think The Unthinkable by Herman Kahn, to speak the unspeakable, and to address the arrogance, the replacement of the dove Kennedy with the hawk Johnson as identical to the replacement of the dove Nikita Sergeyevitch Khrushchev with the hawk Leonid Brezhnev--who gave everybody the mafia kiss.

CIA replaced the Iran regime in 1953 and was the 1979 a copy of the 1917 Lenin to Petrograd with Dulles smoking his pipe and waving at the station.

The Arab Spring cleared the secular regimes allowing Iran to become the regional strong horse. In 2004 Zbigniew Brzezinski the architect of the Shah's betrayal and the Ayatollah Khomeini's ascendence co-authored with Robert M. Gates Director of Central Intelligence under George H. W. Bush and Secretary of Defense under the alleged diametrical opposites George W. Bush and Barack H. Obama, Jr., the Council on Foreign Relations paper "Iran: Time for a New Approach."

In 2007 the National Intelligence Estimate said Iran had stopped working on nuclear weapons.

In 2009 Iran was the one nation in the region Obama did act to overthrow when its people arose.

The Iraq gambit merely removed pressure on Iran.

There is a movement which cannot be said to be the product or the promoter of any U.S. national interest.

The gangsters have long been in the house, but now their feet are on the desk.

Putin sends tanks to Chavez, the Chinese and Norks, missiles.

The Boeing bunker buster MOP is announced but only in limited edition.

The dog will be wagged as it must be on occasion but not today; today we admire Natalie Woods' curves and ponder the angle of her demise.
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#55
Still I am not convinced with Nagell's story.Something does not add up, something it is not just right.
Maybe Nagell was Oswald's handler all along, from Japan to New Orleans. Nagell was either part of the plot or was implicated indirectly.
Once he found out the truth, he did what he did "I d'rather be in jail than commit murder and treason". But killing or injuring Oswald to save his President's
life would not have been an act of treason, on the contrary an act of bravery. So i speculate that when he said murder and treason he meant the assassination of JFK.
But he could not admit that so he changed it to mean Oswald and to appear that he was trying to save JFK not murder him. But if the instigators had organized as it is believed so perfectly would they have risked having Nagell killing their perfect patsy?
And i don't understand why he never revealed the names of Leopoldo and Angelo since he claimed he knew them.
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#56
schlachter - butcher; slaughterer

Per the data below; Schlachter was a CIA operative involved with illegal
arms deals and CIA activity all over the world and he was also CIA driver
who "chauffeured" people to and from CIA headquarters in Langley.

Questions:
I. Was Schlachter "Umbrella Man" in Dallas 11-22-63?

II. Did Schlachter drive the "Bell Telephone Company" truck (aka "Air
Conditioning" truck) fro Dallas to Langley on 11-22-63?

III. Did Schlachter drive the Presidential limousine SS-100-X from
Washington D.C. to CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia and/or to
Dearborn Michigan and/or back to Washington D.C. after the 11-22-63
assassination of JFK?


On Douglas Schlachter:

<1> 1917 -1976 was CIA and chauffeured CIA people to and from Langley,
involved with illegal arms


<2> worked for World Marine, a CIA "Front Company"


<3> tied to illegal Libyan arms deals


<4> tied to illegal arms deals in Russia, South America, and Africa


<5> "Schl�chter von Budapest"?


<6> ties to Nicaragua


<7> more ties to Langley


<8> By 1981, Schlachter has 4 children with the wife he leaves when he
enters U.S. Witness Protection Program


<1>
[ this page discussing Schlachter and Wilson also calls him Douglas
Schlachter, not Dennis
http://books.google.com/books?id=-WkQRkE...A87&dq=%22...


]


Schlachter, a World Marine employee whose evidence as a protected
federal witness would lead to Wilson's 1982 conviction for illegal
arms sales to Libya. Sometime in 1975 or early 1976 Schlachter first
learned of the African arms deal when two CIa agents based in
Indonesia, James Hawes and Robert Moore, called on Wilson at World
Marine in Washington to discuss "an African arms deal" that, in these
agents' words, "had to be put together". Sometime later, Houghton
arrived from Sydney and came into World Marine's offices with the two
Nugan Hand men to order the arms.


Schlachter recalls chauffeuring Wilson and Hawes out to the agency's
headquarters in Langley


while the two discussed using Nugan Hand Bank to finance the
shipments. Under the "cover of Task Force 157," ammunition, 3,000
weapons including machine guns, M-1s, carbines and others". With an
end-user's certificate showing World Marine as the purchaser and an
Australian company as the buyer, the arms left the United States from
Boston for southern Africa in three separate shipments.
<end quote 1>


<2>
http://www.jar2.com/2/Intel/CIA/CIA%20Fronts.htm
<begin quote>
CIA FRONT COMPANIES
World Marine, Inc. (Douglas Schlachter and Opal document related):
Johathan Kwitny, The Crimes Of Patriots
<end quote 2>


<3>
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.ht...E05EEDB153...
<begin quote>
INDICTED EXPERT ON MIDEAST IS FOUND DEAD IN VIRGINIA


It was also in that period that Mr. Wilson was in Libya, working out
arms deals with the Government of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi. According
to the indictment, Mr. Dubberstein met Mr. Wilson in 1977 and
thereafter began funneling information to the Libyans through Douglas
M. Schlachter, a Wilson associate. Both Mr. Wilson and Mr. Schlachter
were named as unindicted co-conspirators in the Dubberstein
indictment.
<end quote 3>


<4>
http://books.google.com/books?id=oPO8mP_...A82&dq=the...


<begin quote>
The document, written in 1982 as the government was preparing to try
Wilson on the plastic explosives charge, cites information provided to
the Justice Department by Douglas Schlachter, one of Wilson's
employees in lIbya. According to the memorandum, Schlachter told
government investigators that Thomas Clines, a CIA officer who was
friendly with Wilson, contacted him in 1977 and asked for help in
obtaining Russian made "Small arms, canons, grenades, and ammunition
from Eastern Bloc countries. Supposedly, these weapons were destined
for South America and Africa for unspppeficied [sic] purposes."
<end quote 4>


<5>
http://www.us-politik.ch/teil4.htm
Hoover bezeichnet diesen ersten grossen Erfolg seiner Leute als
"Quatsch" und l�sst die Untersuchung einstellen. Da das FBI die Wanzen
ohne richterliche Bewilligung setzte, kann man die Resultate sowieso
nicht ver�ffentlichen.
Hoover unterst�tzt Nixon, der Chruschtschow den "Schl�chter von
Budapest" nannte.
<end quote 5>


<6>
http://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2...-7785.html
<begin quote>
901 F.2d 378
UNITED STATES of America, Plaintiff-Appellee,
v.
Edwin Paul WILSON, Defendant-Appellant.
No. 88-7785.
United States Court of Appeals,
Fourth Circuit.
Argued Dec. 6, 1989.
Decided April 13, 1990.


...In this appeal we address for the second time Edwin Wilson's
conviction for various offenses related to his sale of arms to the
Libyan government...


Wilson relies also upon a government agent's notes from an interview
with Douglas Schlachter, who apparently worked for Wilson. The
reliance is unavailing. The notes indicate simply that the government
was aware of a CIA project involving Nicaraguan President Somoza in
which Wilson was apparently involved. Once again, the notes do not
substantiate Wilson's Brady claim. Similarly unrevealing, from the
Brady perspective, is the affidavit of a one M. Gene Wheaton, which
states that Wheaton knew someone named Cunningham who was assigned the
task of clearing out a CIA "Wilson file."
<end quote 6>


<7>
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ci...son_1.html
<begin quote>
Ed Wilson's Revenge
The Biggest CIA Scandal in History Has Its Feet in the Starting Blocks
in a Houston Court House


And while former U.S. Army Green Berets, in Wilson's employ, were
teaching Libyans how to blow things up, Clines, a high-ranking active
CIA officer, was walking Wilson employee Douglas Schlachter through
the halls at CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia. In 1977 Clines
even introduced Schlachter to Jimmy Carter's newly appointed CIA
Director, Navy Admiral Stansfield Turner. Exclusive parties, horseback
riding events and private hunting parties were held for the "A" list
at Wilson's expansive Mount Airy farm in Northern Virginia.
<end quote 7>


<8>
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1228611


Notes


Enforcing Judgements Against Participants in the Witness Protection
Program


In December 1981, Douglas Schlechter became a participant in the
Witness Protection Program.1 In exchange for Schlachter's testimony
against an organized crime figure, the Attorney General of the United
States agreed to relocate him and change his identity in order to
ensure his safety. Though legally married, Schlachter chose not to be
relocated with his wife and children, preferring to move with his
girlfriend and her child. Since that date, Mrs. Schlachter has fallen
heir to all the debts and other obligations that Schlachter left
behind. The government has refused to disclose her husband's
whereabouts to her,2 on the ground that this might endanger him. Mrs.
Schlachter herself has a claim against the witness: A state court has
awarded her child support, a judgment she has been unable to enforce
because she cannot find Schlachter, and because the government has
refused to force compliance with the judgment. At a congressional
hearing in 1982,3 Mrs. Schlachter expressed dismay and frustration at
being forced to cover her husband's debts while she and her children
live without basic necessities.
Mrs. Schlachter's problem is not an isolated one. After a witness has
been relocated and given a new identity, he or she is virtually
impossible to find. If the witness has entered the program with out-
---------------------------------------------------------------------------�--


1. Statutory authority for the Witness Protection Program is found in
the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970, Pub. L. No. 91-452, ��
501-504, 84 Stat. 922 (1970), reprinted in 18 U.S.C. prec. � 3481
(1982). In its closing days, the 98th Congress passed the Witness
Security Reform Act of 1984, Pub. L. No. 98-473, Title VIII (Oct. 12,
1984) amending the program. See notes 115-25 infra and accompanying
text.
2. For a complete discussion of the Schlachter case, see Marshals
Service of Process: Hearings Before the Subcomm. on Courts, Civil
LIberties and the Administration of Justice of the House Comm. on the
Judiciary, 97th Cong., 2d Sess. 156-58 (1982) [hereinafter cited as
1982 Hearings] (testimony of Janet Schlachter). The Department of
Justice claims to have made some arrangements for Mrs. Schlachter and
her lawyer to meet with Douglas Schlachter. Letter from Gerald Shur,
Senior Associate Director of the Office of Enforcement Operations,
Criminal Division, Department of Justice to the author (Mar. 23, 1984)
(on file with Stanford Law Review).
3. 1982 Hearings, supra, note 2.


1017


<end quote 8>


Errata:


from
http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:AbR...of-thoth.c...
<begin quote>
Edwin Wilson, the man who unites all these figures, is the only one
who went to jail, along with a former assistant, Douglas Schlachter.
Schlachter agreed to testify about Wilson's dealings, served a brief
prison term, and then went into the federal witness protection
program. He also led the Australian Joint Task Force to information
about Nugan Hand's involvement in the two covert deals in Iran and
Southern Africa. Schlachter remembered meeting Secord's friend Bernie
Houghton in Wilson's Washington office with two career CIA officers
around the time of the spy ship sale.
<end quote>


from http://takeoverworld.info/Nugan_Hand_Ban...o_afpn.htm
<begin quote>
Australia's Joint Task force investigating the bank later learned
details of the meetings from Dennis Schlachter

[ this page discussing Schlachter and Wilson also calls him Douglas
Schlachter, not Dennis
http://books.google.com/books?id=-WkQRkE...A87&dq=%22... ]Schlachter,
a World Marine employee whose evidence as a protectedfederal witness would
lead to Wilson's 1982 conviction for illegalarms sales to Libya. Sometime in
1975 or early 1976 Schlachter firstlearned of the African arms deal when two
CIa agents based inIndonesia, James Hawes and Robert Moore, called on Wilson
at WorldMarine in Washington to discuss "an African arms deal" that, in
theseagents' words, "had to be put together". Sometime later,
Houghtonarrived from Sydney and came into World Marine's offices with the
twoNugan Hand men to order the arms. while the two discussed using Nugan
Hand Bank to finance theshipments. Under the "cover of Task Force 157,"
ammunition, 3,000weapons including machine guns, M-1s, carbines and others".
With anend-user's certificate showing World Marine as the purchaser and
anAustralian company as the buyer, the arms left the United States
fromBoston for southern Africa in three separate shipments.<end quote>
"Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
"Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience! People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn
"If there is no struggle there is no progress. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and never will" - Frederick Douglass
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