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Could a 6.5mm Carcano Have Made 2 out of 3 of JFK's Wounds?
#1
Before I begin this thread, it must be understood there are certain things about JFK's wounds I believe, and certain things I don't believe.

For example, I do not believe a rifle bullet entered JFK's back, making a neat little hole, and only penetrated an inch or so. Considering the normal muzzle velocity of an M91/38 6.5mm Carcano to be roughly 2200 fps, to have so little penetration would mean the bullet was going so slow, it likely barely made it out of the barrel. Also, at this low velocity, bullets tend to de-stabilize and start tumbling, and a tumbling bullet will not make a neat little round entry wound. Further, at this low velocity, a bullet will drop very quickly, and being able to even hit the limo would be an impossible feat.

I do believe the x-rays of JFK's head showed hundreds of dust-like particles, mostly because I can think of no reason why anyone would make up such a thing.

I do not believe that the bullet that struck JFK's back entered at the level of cervical vertebra C7. I do believe a bullet entered JFK's back 5 3/4 inches below the collar line and 1.5-2 inches to the right of the spinal midline, at about the level of thoracic vertebra T3. I believe this bullet entered JFK's right lung in its upper lobe but did not exit his right lung through the front of his chest. I believe no large or small particles of this bullet were recovered, as there was nothing to recover.

Still with me? Think I'm crazy and about to start ranting about ice bullets or plastic bullets that dissolve when in contact with blood? Sorry to disappoint everyone but I am quite sane, and I believe all of the above can be very easily explained with easily available ammunition.

Just to refresh everyone's memory, here is a medical diagram showing the lungs and the location of thoracic vertebra T3.

[URL="http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=Nug22nlU_VKFNM&tbnid=DnCyjR3Zi4MrpM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.studyblue.com%2Fnotes%2Fnote%2Fn%2Fn112-assessment-study-guide%2Fdeck%2F4053742&ei=fieuU-nHCMmBogSrmYKoDA&bvm=bv.69837884,d.cGU&psig=AFQjCNFZmd648BnipldXCJfN2rDQtkWWJg&ust=1404008518038366"][Image: posterior_lungs1341270126571.jpg]
[/URL]
Note that a bullet hitting the back 1.5-2 inches to the right of spinal midline at T3 level cannot go anywhere but into the top end of the right lung.

Next, I want to bring up "frangible" ammunition again. I touched on this type of ammo briefly on another thread but will go into it further here.

There are many misconceptions about bullets, and most of them seem to be amongst JFK researchers. I have heard the terms hollow point, dum dum, fragmenting and frangible bullets used on these forums as if the terms were interchangeable, yet nothing could be further from the truth. The main, and most important, distinction between hollow point, dum dum and fragmenting bullets and frangible bullets is that the first three are made from solid metal while the frangible bullet is not. The frangible bullet is very unique in that the core is made from compressed metal powder held inside of a copper alloy jacket.

And just as surprising is that frangible bullets were not (originally) designed for hunting or warfare but, rather, to promote safety for indoor shooting ranges. This was because a frangible bullet will not ricochet off of a hard object, such as a steel beam. As it is made from compressed metal powder, striking a hard object will simply turn it back into powder, and the only thing to ricochet is the copper alloy jacket. However, there is another way to turn the compressed metal back to powder. Before we go there, here is a clip of Italian made 6.5mm Carcano frangible bullets, supposedly made in 1953. Note that the copper alloy jacket is in two sections with the soldered seam visible towards the front end of the bullet.

[Image: 65Ital.JPG]

Considering that Italy had not issued a 6.5mm Carcano rifle to its military since 1945, it may seem a bit odd that ammo for this rifle was being made in Italy as late as 1953. It's quite simple, really. The 6.5mm Carcano M91 long rifle was being used (and is still in use today) by Italian teams in international shooting competitions, as it was, and still is, a very accurate rifle. Because of this, it stands to reason that frangible target ammo would be manufactured.

Next on display is modern frangible ammo, quite lethal and not intended for the shooting range, made by a compamy called Dynamic Research Technologies (DRT Ammo for short). Here is a link to a page explaining the technology behind these frangible bullets.

http://www.drtammo.com/DRT-Technology

To better understand the lethality of these bullets, and how they might be connected to JFK's head and lung wounds, here is a cross section of a DRT ammo frangible rifle cartridge with a frangible bullet loaded into it.
[Image: DRT-Ammo-Anatomy-H.jpg]

If you look closely at the bullet above, and the Carcano frangible bullets in the clip earlier, you will notice one very significant difference between the bullets; aside from the fact one bullet has a pointed nose and the others are round nosed. The key difference, and the secret behind the lethality of DRT ammo, is the fact that the bullet above is a hollow point bullet, as well as being a bullet with a frangible core made of compressed metal powder.

At this point, it is necessary to explain how a hollow point bullet functions, and to dispel many popular myths regarding hollow point bullets. Many times I have seen the belief expressed that JFK could not have been hit in the back of the head by a hollow point bullet, as this type of bullet would have exploded upon impact with JFK's skull, and left a very large entry wound. Once again, nothing could be further from the truth. Hollow points, just like soft points and full metal jackets, make a neat little entry wound and only open up once inside the skull. The reason for this is the fluid and semi-fluid matter the bullet encounters as it passes through the brain. Look at the bullet above with its open nose and think of it as a hydraulic cylinder. The high velocity of the bullet forces this liquid matter into the nose where it builds up an incredible hydraulic pressure. This opens the nose up, allowing it to gather even more fluid. Very quickly, the pressure becomes so great, it literally rips the jacket wide open; often right to the base if the bullet has no partition to stop this. Needless to say, the bullet often comes apart into several pieces which do not always exit the skull, even if there is an "exit" wound.

Now, remember how I said a frangible bullet didn't have to hit something hard, like steel, in order to turn the compressed metal core back into metal powder? Try to picture the hollow point bullet I described in the last paragraph with a frangible compressed metal core instead of a solid lead core. The same hydraulic pressure that would be spreading the tip open would also be exerting this incredible pressure against the compressed metal powder core. As soon as the opening jacket provides the room, the compressed metal powder core disintegrates into a lethal cloud of metal powder, stopping within an inch or so and transferring all of its energy to surrounding tissue. Such is the DRT frangible bullet with, of course, the hollow point tip.

The Carcano frangible bullets seen in the clip, early in this post, need only have holes drilled in their tips to make them hollow point frangibles and produce the same results.

To give you an idea of the lethality of DRT frangible bullets, here is a photo of a DRT .223 calibre frangible bullet fired into a lye soap block at 100 yards. Note, on the right hand side of the block, that there is no exit track. In other words, the lethal cloud of metal powder has come to a complete stop within the block and transferred all of its energy to the block. I don't think I have ever seen more devastating results created by a bullet.

[Image: 76405.jpg]

I believe this bullet can explain the massive damage to JFK's brain and the dust-like particles seen in the skull x-rays. I also believe this bullet can explain a bullet entering JFK's back and right lung at 2000+ fps, and not exiting his chest.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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#2
I wonder if anyone has fired one of the Italian made frangible bullets (with, or without, hole drilled in the tip) from a 91/38 into ballistic soap, and photo'd the results?

Dawn, when her husband asked if he should buy an Oswald-look-alike MC 91/38, once asked "Why?" Well, now, there is a good reason.
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)

James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."

Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."

Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
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#3
Drew Phipps Wrote:I wonder if anyone has fired one of the Italian made frangible bullets (with, or without, hole drilled in the tip) from a 91/38 into ballistic soap, and photo'd the results?

Dawn, when her husband asked if he should buy an Oswald-look-alike MC 91/38, once asked "Why?" Well, now, there is a good reason.

I believe the M91/38 Carcano found on the 6th floor was a prop, and selected as such because of its compact size. This lent credence to the story of the patsy being able to smuggle the rifle into the TSBD.

The rifle I would have chosen from the 6.5mm Carcano family for the assassination is pictured below:

[Image: manc_0047-03.JPG]

[Image: M.1891-41.JPG]

M.1891/41 was the last model of Mannlicher Carcano infantry rifle.
The rifles with double set triggers were built for the military target shooting.
They were still used in both, national and international shooting matches in the 1960-s.
The arsenal markings are stamped on the back of the barrel, "A Royal Army Crown over FAT 41" (Terni arsenal, 1941).
This model of Carcano rifle was built still in 6.5 mm caliber, but with constant pitch rifling.

Note that the M91/41 was made not with progressive twist rifling, as the earlier M91 long rifles were, but with fixed or constant pitch rifling. As there were a limited number of these rifles made before the Italians signed an armistice with the Allies in 1943, it is difficult to find out much about the rate of twist of the riflings in the M91/41. However, common sense would tell one there would be no real reason to alter the rate of twist being used in the shorter barrelled M91/38, that being a constant (fixed) rate of twist of 1:8.47. This would give a rifling imprint to bullets fired from an M91/41 identical to the imprint left by an M91/38. Even if the rate of twist was different between the two rifles, who would have even noticed? Look at the nonsense fed to the WC by the FBI's firearms "expert", SA Robert Frazier. If no one was able to see through his lies, do you think anyone would have spotted that the rifling marks on the bullets looked a bit off?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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#4
There is something else interesting about the M91/41. Note the combination sling mount rings; both side and bottom mount in one.

[Image: manc_0047-34.JPG]

[Image: manc_0047-37.JPG]
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
Reply
#5
I recall that Oswald's rifle had a crown marking but don't recall a "FAT." It also had a "40" on it for year of manufacture but was lacking the Fascist stamp XVIII (for the 18th year of Fascist Rule) although there are faint marks that might have been the start of a Roman Numeral, that had been almost completely machined off.

Wouldn't the 91/41 been considerably longer than the 91/38?
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)

James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."

Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."

Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
Reply
#6
Drew Phipps Wrote:I recall that Oswald's rifle had a crown marking but don't recall a "FAT." It also had a "40" on it for year of manufacture but was lacking the Fascist stamp XVIII (for the 18th year of Fascist Rule) although there are faint marks that might have been the start of a Roman Numeral, that had been almost completely machined off.

Wouldn't the 91/41 been considerably longer than the 91/38?

That is correct, as we discussed before. There were a number of things missing stamp-wise from C2766.

And yes, the M91/41 was classed as a long rifle (27 inch barrel) as opposed to the short rifle M91/38 (21 inch barrel). While not as long as the earlier M91 long rifles (30 inch barrel), its extra length gave it a higher muzzle velocity than the M91/38 short rifle and, it is believed, much greater accuracy.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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#7
Wonder if that extra 6 inches in barrel length would result in the apparently anomalous size, and placing of the strap mounts, of the rifle in the backyard photo?

I know there is no groove in the stock matching the BYP rifle in a 91/41. Can you do a photo compare of a 91/41 with the backyard photo rifle the same way that others did a side-by-side compare with the 91/38? Oswald's rifle could be some kludged together assortment of surplus parts. 91/41 barrel on a 91/38 stock?
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)

James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."

Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."

Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
Reply
#8
Drew Phipps Wrote:Wonder if that extra 6 inches in barrel length would result in the apparently anomalous size, and placing of the strap mounts, of the rifle in the backyard photo?

I know there is no groove in the stock matching the BYP rifle in a 91/41. Can you do a photo compare of a 91/41 with the backyard photo rifle the same way that others did a side-by-side compare with the 91/38? Oswald's rifle could be some kludged together assortment of surplus parts. 91/41 barrel on a 91/38 stock?

Sorry, Drew, but there is no doubt in my mind that the BYP rifle is either a 6.5mm M91/38 short rifle or a 7.35mm M38 short rifle. Think about it, if you were going to leave a short rifle on the 6th floor as "evidence", wouldn't you want to use the same rifle you used to make the BYP's with?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
Reply
#9
You would indeed. Why then is the rifle used in the Warren Report and currently in archives at NARA not the same rifle as the one the Dallas PD pulled out of the Book Depository? Was the "correct" rifle planted? If so, why would someone substitute it for a different rifle?
"All that is necessary for tyranny to succeed is for good men to do nothing." (unknown)

James Tracy: "There is sometimes an undue amount of paranoia among some conspiracy researchers that can contribute to flawed observations and analysis."

Gary Cornwell (Dept. Chief Counsel HSCA): "A fact merely marks the point at which we have agreed to let investigation cease."

Alan Ford: "Just because you believe it, that doesn't make it so."
Reply
#10
Drew Phipps Wrote:You would indeed. Why then is the rifle used in the Warren Report and currently in archives at NARA not the same rifle as the one the Dallas PD pulled out of the Book Depository? Was the "correct" rifle planted? If so, why would someone substitute it for a different rifle?

I have no idea, Drew. I'm trying to have a discussion about bullets and ballistics, not stage props.
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Warren Commission testimony of Secret Service Agent Clinton J. Hill, 1964
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