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The "Other" Zapruder Film
#41
Jack White Wrote:
Pamela McElwain-Brown Wrote:
Jack White Wrote:
Pamela McElwain-Brown Wrote:I attended a screening of the Zapruder film in NYC in the late fall of 1964. At the time, I knew that this was unusual, but had no idea that it would be virtually unheard of. I included a reference to this event in my esay "SS-100-X" in CAR CRASH CULTURE, Palgrave,2002. The film was shown following the David Wolper b+w documentary on the JFK administration called "1000 days". I sat in the front row, and watched this clear copy. My impression was that all the debris flowed to the rear, and there was no 'blob'. Having this experience has influenced everything I believe about the Zapruder film(s). When I tried to track down the theatre, I initially thought it might have been the Bleeker. However, I contacted the grandson of the owner at that time, and he said he didn't think so. He pointed me to someone else who said he thought it was shown at the Charles Theatre, on the lower East Side. I have since visited that site and it fits with my recollections; so does the interior, from photos.

Too bad you cannot provide more info than this. Proof of this would
be highly significant.

Jack

I am continuing my research now. What would be valuable to you?

Highly significant would be a newspaper ad announcing the movie, its name,
theater and date. Old remembrances, even if accurate, are not good evidence.

Next would be finding another person who remembered seeing the same thing
you saw. That lends credibility to your remembrance.

Jack

Agreed. Of course, sharing this experience with everyone during the years cannot be discounted either.
Here is the page from CCC "SS-100-X" where I discuss the screening. It was the impetus for my focusing on the limo starting in 1988.
http://in-broad-daylight.com/CCC165.pdf
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#42
Pamela McElwain-Brown Wrote:I attended a screening of the Zapruder film in NYC in the late fall of 1964. At the time, I knew that this was unusual, but had no idea that it would be virtually unheard of. I included a reference to this event in my esay "SS-100-X" in CAR CRASH CULTURE, Palgrave,2002. The film was shown following the David Wolper b+w documentary on the JFK administration called "1000 days". I sat in the front row, and watched this clear copy. My impression was that all the debris flowed to the rear, and there was no 'blob'. Having this experience has influenced everything I believe about the Zapruder film(s). When I tried to track down the theatre, I initially thought it might have been the Bleeker. However, I contacted the grandson of the owner at that time, and he said he didn't think so. He pointed me to someone else who said he thought it was shown at the Charles Theatre, on the lower East Side. I have since visited that site and it fits with my recollections; so does the interior, from photos.

To my knowledge, '1000 Days' was a made-for-TV documentary. "Four Days in November" was shown in the theaters.



Again, I just have a hard time getting my head around these "other film" stories. If these stories are true, they are amazingly careless at letting just anyone see these films, or it's part of a psy-ops campaign to confuse people.
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#43
Tracy Riddle Wrote:
Pamela McElwain-Brown Wrote:I attended a screening of the Zapruder film in NYC in the late fall of 1964. At the time, I knew that this was unusual, but had no idea that it would be virtually unheard of. I included a reference to this event in my esay "SS-100-X" in CAR CRASH CULTURE, Palgrave,2002. The film was shown following the David Wolper b+w documentary on the JFK administration called "1000 days". I sat in the front row, and watched this clear copy. My impression was that all the debris flowed to the rear, and there was no 'blob'. Having this experience has influenced everything I believe about the Zapruder film(s). When I tried to track down the theatre, I initially thought it might have been the Bleeker. However, I contacted the grandson of the owner at that time, and he said he didn't think so. He pointed me to someone else who said he thought it was shown at the Charles Theatre, on the lower East Side. I have since visited that site and it fits with my recollections; so does the interior, from photos.

To my knowledge, '1000 Days' was a made-for-TV documentary. "Four Days in November" was shown in the theaters.



Again, I just have a hard time getting my head around these "other film" stories. If these stories are true, they are amazingly careless at letting just anyone see these films, or it's part of a psy-ops campaign to confuse people.

No, 1000 Days was made for the 1964 Democratic Convention.

I saw a copy of the Zapruder film. It may have been an unaltered copy. I don't know that for sure, as I don't currently have access to it, to compare it with what is at NARA. There were other showings of copies of the Zapruder film(s) in NYC in the 60's long before the general public viewed it via Giraldo Rivera in 1975. And his copy of the film was dreadful.

I went the first night. I don't know at this point if there were any subsequent showings, or if somebody clamped down on the Charles for showing it. I do know it is rumored that a handful of Time-Life executives supposedly had copies of the Z-film(s) in their safes in their homes in Greenwich CT. As this viewing occurred in NYC it is my thinking that one of them took the risk of having their copy shown to the public for at least one night. I will always be grateful for that, as it changed my life forever. I would not be presenting "Midnight Blue to Black: the Vanishing Act of the JFK Presidential Limousine In Broad Daylight" at JFKLancer on the 22nd had it not been for my watching JFK killed in that exquisite limousine in front of my eyes on that screen.
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#44
I found re-reading this thread exhilerating once again...

In my reading of Max Phillips' note (below) I find a strange anomolie that I think MAY lead to this "other" film.

Zapruder keeps the original and 1 best copy - That's 2
Sorrels is given 2 copies...
The timelines suggest that of these two remaining copies, 0186 goes to Kelly then to the FBI and the other is sent by Phillips to Rowley.


Except that's not what Phillips' note says. It says that a "third print is forwarded", not one of the 2 Sorrels has.
Dino at NPIC sees an 8mm film Saturday night, Homer a 16mm on Sunday.
Stolley leaves Zapruder's office with original
16mm print of film (#0183), which is immediately couriered to Donnelly
printing plant in Chicago, where Life magazine is being prepared. Zapruder
retains the best of the 3 first day copies
.

This again is not what the note says. It says the third print is forwarded.
Except this is no longer the "third" print but the 4th.

Whether Stolley takes Zapruder's print as some timelines suggest, or Zapruder keeps it,
there is still another copy

Zap/Stolley = 2, (0183) and "best copy" which he shows Sat morning -
Sorrels>Kelley>FBI = 1, a 16mm version viewed repeatedly at Kodak
Sorrels = 1 print some timelines claim was sent to Rowley
"Third Print forwarded" = 1 film in the possession of SS Chief Rowley in Washington DC... Since it is referred to as yet a third and different print than the 2 Sorrels receives, it appears we have an extra copy.

Total is 1 original and 4 copies, not three.

So, Does anyone know what happened to the film in Rowley's possession in DC?

It is my theory this is the in camera original split into an 8mm film and used that evening to begin alteration for the replacement while Dino and his boss prepare the now lost briefing boards with the original or a copy of Rowley's.

That 0184 & one of the known copies is the film which goes to LIFE and the reason 0183 cannot be found anywhere on the extant "original".

As someone noted in this thread, there is a complete lack of evidence related to what those in Dallas saw on the film.

This is all I could find so far

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=7936&stc=1]



CD - 87 Folder 1
CO2 34030 11/22
9:55

To: Chief Rowley
From: Max D. Phillips
Subject: 8mm movie film showing President
Kennedy being shot

Enclosed is an 8mm movie film
taken by Mr. A. Zapruder, 501 Elm St., Dallas
Texas (RI8-6071)

Mr.. Zapruder was photographing
the President at the instant he was shot.

According to Mr. Zapruder, the position of
the assassin was behind Mr. Zapruder.

Note: Disregard personnel scenes
shown on Mr. Zapruder's film.. Mr. Zapruder
is in custody of the "master" film. Two prints
were given to SAIC Sorrels, this date.
The third print is forwarded.

Max D. Phillips
Special Agent - PRS

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=7935&stc=1]


Attached Files
.jpg   Max Phillips note to Rowley - BEST copy.jpg (Size: 656.84 KB / Downloads: 30)
.jpg   Phil Chamberlain talks about FBI and 16mm copy.jpg (Size: 368.74 KB / Downloads: 30)
Once in a while you get shown the light
in the strangest of places if you look at it right.....
R. Hunter
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