PDA

View Full Version : The "deeper" implications of parading three "tramps" thru DP



David Josephs
03-12-2013, 05:18 PM
We've established that more than just the three in the images were pulled from the trains in the RR yard (Harkness)

We've established that the three whose name appear on Arrest Reports spent 3-4 days in jail while the three in the images were set free after meeting with Decker

We've reasonably established that Lansdale walked past these men to the west of the TSBD entrance.

We've also established that Wise was not entirely truthful about who was with him in the photos - if indeed THESE PHOTOS were the ones shown to him
(I have yet to see evidence of which photos these men were shown)

We've established contradictory evidence that these men were, on the one hand, dirty, smelly and disgusting...
while on the other, Gedney claims they were at the Salvation Army together, had cleaned up and eaten before going to the rr yards.

Wise tells the FBI that he, Bass, Vaughn and Middleton we detailed to go check out the "rail tower" and talk to a man there with info about men who had hopped a train...
(attached - Middleton claims he was not at work that day while Wise swears to it)


Q1: Were the photographed "tramps" really on the train?
Wise only describes the elderly tramp - who has a paper bag with some personal items along with a knife, that Wise takes and keeps...
The photo of them in front of the TSBD (with who appears to be Oswald out front talking to a cop in the background) shows the elderly tramp with the paper bag...

SPECUALTION: The elderly tramp really was one of the three tramps on the arrest report... Gus Abrahms, 53... while the others were not Doyle and/or Gedney.


Q2: Who did Decker let go, in a somewhat unusual way?
From the arrest reports and the interviews with Abrahms, Doyle and Gedney... they were in jail thru the weekend, release on the 26th.

From the attached, Wise let's us know he was informed they were let go. He never SEES the three leave... which, imo, supports the possbility that Abrahms was kept while the other two were released.
Add not Harness' comment about more than just the three pictured taken from the trains... and I believe we have the makings of a switch... Not three for three...
but two for two... which in the CIA world of plans, a little truth infused in a lie helps confuse the issue even further.


Q3: Could the parade thru DP simple be made to establish there were THREE TRAMPS, and nothing more?
Well.. IMO that is part of the process.

Let's suppose the two other tramps, the clean ones in suits and smirks, were there simply to confuse the issue... red herrings to point to Mafia connections...
for as far as I know, these men were never seen or discussed prior to these pictures... they were not at Odio's house.... they were not seen with Ferrie/Shaw/Ruby/Oswald

So they serve but 2 purposes... establish THREE TRAMPS for history's sake and lead us down the wrong paths.


Q4: What happened to the other men removed from the train according to Harkness?
THAT is the $64,000 question... for while the three depicted in the photos were part of those removed, they were not ALL of the men removed.
Somehow Gedney and Doyle make it back to the station to be booked with Abrahms, without being seen by anyone... (maybe the same way the two left without being seen by Wise, these other two arrived)

The PHOTOS and testimony can be accurate and truthful.. these WERE the men escorted from the train... just not all of them.


So while red herrings have been chased for years trying to ID these men... nothing definitive has been proven....

If one reads the interviews of Gedney we find the threesome hanging together for quite some time... do two early 30's guys as we see in the images and a 53 year old drunk seem an odd trio to you?
http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10151-10214


The little detail of the paper bag that Abrahms had is either another outright lie by Wise... and that person was part of the ruse... or he was truthful by accident and allows us to conclude that really was Abrahms in order to give credibility when looking back on the incident.

Does anyone know of any evidence of these OTHER MEN FROM THE TRAIN being escorted to the station by any of the key players: Harkness, Haygood, Vaughn, Bass, Middleton, ???

LR Trotter
03-13-2013, 06:44 PM
At one time, 2 of the 3 "Dealey Plaza Tramps" were suggested to be Houston residents Charles Rogers and Charles Harrelson. That of course perked up my interest in their true identity. After I saw the report that identified the shorter of the 2 as Harold Doyle, and the taller gentleman as John Gedney, I studied the photographs as best I could and over time became satisfied that the so called "Charles Rogers Tramp" was in fact, Harold Doyle. And, I am also satisfied that the gentleman referenced as the "Charles Harrelson Tramp" is actually John Gedney. I developed my opinion based on similar, although age progressed, features. I make no claim to be an expert and confirm this is just my opinion. Now, whether or not the 3 gentlemen participated in the events of 11/22'63, I have no opinion. As for the older of the 3, who likewise was identified by the same arrest records that surfaced some years after '63, who has been identified as Gus Abrams, the photos are not, at least for me, very identity worthy.

:shrug:

Jan Klimkowski
03-13-2013, 07:05 PM
I'm very happy for this debate to continue.

In considering the investigative research already conducted, perhaps we'll uncover something new.

Ladies and gentlemen - onwards.

David Josephs
03-13-2013, 07:47 PM
At one time, 2 of the 3 "Dealey Plaza Tramps" were suggested to be Houston residents Charles Rogers and Charles Harrelson. That of course perked up my interest in their true identity. After I saw the report that identified the shorter of the 2 as Harold Doyle, and the taller gentleman as John Gedney, I studied the photographs as best I could and over time became satisfied that the so called "Charles Rogers Tramp" was in fact, Harold Doyle. And, I am also satisfied that the gentleman referenced as the "Charles Harrelson Tramp" is actually John Gedney. I developed my opinion based on similar, although age progressed, features. I make no claim to be an expert and confirm this is just my opinion. Now, whether or not the 3 gentlemen participated in the events of 11/22'63, I have no opinion. As for the older of the 3, who likewise was identified by the same arrest records that surfaced some years after '63, who has been identified as Gus Abrams, the photos are not, at least for me, very identity worthy.

:shrug:

LR... if you could post or direct us to theses photos you've used for comparison it would help with our understanding of your conclusions....

Are you saying you've have seen photos of John Forrester Gedney, Harold Doyle, and Gus W. Abrahms, independent of the three tramps photos from DP...
or are you making this conclusion based on comparing their supposed identities to Harrelson and Rogers, finding that Harrelson is not the same as the man ID'd as Gedney and Rogers is not the same as the man ID'd as Doyle?

At this point in the discussion I am not concluding WHO these other two men are.... I have never seen photos of Gedney, Doyle or Abrahms from 1963.

What I do know is that the FBI reports contradict themselves. Gedney, Doyle and Abrahms were detained and released from jail on 11/26/63.
Each man states they spent a few days in jail and were released... while Wise tells the FBI that HE was informed the three men were released on 11/22 after talking with Decker... although they did not leave via the "normal" route.

We can't have it both ways... I could understand if the three arrest reports were created after the fact (as Chambers cannot remember completing them) yet then how would the three men each tell of being kept thru the 26th?
Of course they could have been intimidated into corroborating the story....

If they were just three hobos, why hide the fact of their processing for so long?

I'm just trying to work it thru... Harkness let slip that there were other men taken from the train at that time....


What can be gained from a "deep" POV by creating enough of a scene with these men to insure photos being taken... when so many other "suspects and witnesses" were wisked off by car?
Does not that suggest a plan and purpose for these men to be photographed in DP.... which in turn works bacward to their being in the right place to be taken from the train in the first place.... and on back from there.

Mr. BELIN - Do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir. We made some arrests, I put some people in.
Mr. BELIN - Were these what you call hoboes or tramps?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN - Were all those questioned?
Mr. HARKNESS - Yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned.
Mr. BELIN - Any guns of any kind found?
Mr. HARKNESS - Not to my knowledge.

LR Trotter
03-13-2013, 10:26 PM
Mr Josephs, I repeat, I developed my opinion based on similar, although age progressed, features. I make no claim to be an expert and confirm this is just my opinion.
There is a youtube interview with Mr Doyle in Dealey Plaza from a few years back, and the height, eyes, jawline, and ears appear the same, but older. I will try to locate any online photos of Mr Gedney and post that info, but a search should locate them, if there is some pressing need to prove me wrong.

:nosmilie:

David Josephs
03-13-2013, 10:55 PM
Mr Josephs, I repeat, I developed my opinion based on similar, although age progressed, features. I make no claim to be an expert and confirm this is just my opinion.
There is a youtube interview with Mr Doyle in Dealey Plaza from a few years back, and the height, eyes, jawline, and ears appear the same, but older. I will try to locate any online photos of Mr Gedney and post that info, but a search should locate them, if there is some pressing need to prove me wrong.

:nosmilie:

I'm sorry that you feel all I am doing is trying to prove anyone right or wrong.... I was simply wondering if there were images of these men from 1963 I hadn't seen.

I also make no comment as to your skills in any area.

I would, instead, be interested in your analysis of the evidence presented though... similarities in facial features notwithstanding...
I don't think we can come to a definite conclusion based on a visual comparison. (the "faces of Oswald" graphic illustrates my point...)

2-3 men were released on 11/22 according to Decker's deputy as told to Wise
3 men were in jail until 11/26 according to the documentation and their own statements.

I do not think we can tell whether the men in the photos were part of the first or second group as there are no mug shots of the three men realeased on the 26th.
nor is there any documentation related to the "other men taken from the train" per Harkness...


Here are some witnesses being placed into a police car... yet these "tramps" are walked the length of DP with more than suspicious looking escorts.

Jan?

Magda Hassan
03-13-2013, 11:12 PM
I'm very happy for this debate to continue.

In considering the investigative research already conducted, perhaps we'll uncover something new.

Ladies and gentlemen - onwards.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Jim DiEugenio
03-14-2013, 12:27 AM
I actually wish this whole issue would go away.

I mean, talk about a cul de sac.

I really like so much of David's work. And the poster about the time of the Trade mart lunch is a real jewel of a find.

But man, these three tramps, count me out. And I wish Stone had not included them in his film.

Charles Drago
03-14-2013, 01:51 AM
The "tramps" were created to distract.

Does anyone actually believe that E and E systems for Facilitators and Mechanics in Dealey Plaza would be so poorly planned as to allow for capture and public display of the guilty -- unless it all was part of the operation?

This thread, for me, is part of an operation -- by design or effect -- to continue to mire us in nonsense.

Smoke and mirrors to distract the plebes.

This is kindergarten play time.

DPF is graduate school.

Or at least it should be.

Total waste of time.

Charles Drago
03-14-2013, 01:52 AM
I'm very happy for this debate to continue.

In considering the investigative research already conducted, perhaps we'll uncover something new.

Ladies and gentlemen - onwards.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Not unless you're ready to shatter the envelope.

LR Trotter
03-14-2013, 07:54 AM
Mr Josephs, maybe I should have been more specific, but I posted in response to your 2nd sentence, as I was unaware of that information being "established". I indicated my reason for a closer look at the 2 younger of the so called 3 tramps, but I do not recall what time the pictured gentlemen were escorted through Dealey Plaza and allow for other "tramps" in the area. I do however remain convinced, to the degree I can be, that the shorter dark haired gentleman is correctly identified as Mr Doyle, and the taller lighter haired gentleman is correctly identified as Mr Gedney. As for what they were or were not involved in is actually beside the point, and at one time, I accepted the Charles Rogers and Charles Harrelson identity as fact, and sought proof for myself, and later formed my current opinion. So, you and I should agree to disagree, and move on. If some so called tramps were involved with JFK's murder, they were, and if not, they weren't. Take care.

:argue:

David Josephs
03-14-2013, 06:27 PM
Mr Josephs, maybe I should have been more specific, but I posted in response to your 2nd sentence, as I was unaware of that information being "established". I indicated my reason for a closer look at the 2 younger of the so called 3 tramps, but I do not recall what time the pictured gentlemen were escorted through Dealey Plaza and allow for other "tramps" in the area. I do however remain convinced, to the degree I can be, that the shorter dark haired gentleman is correctly identified as Mr Doyle, and the taller lighter haired gentleman is correctly identified as Mr Gedney. As for what they were or were not involved in is actually beside the point, and at one time, I accepted the Charles Rogers and Charles Harrelson identity as fact, and sought proof for myself, and later formed my current opinion. So, you and I should agree to disagree, and move on. If some so called tramps were involved with JFK's murder, they were, and if not, they weren't. Take care.

:argue:

LR... I accept and respect your opinion on the matter.... Don't think I've presented myself in any other way.

We have Jan & Magda interested in discussing the different angles and aspects
while Jim and a few others feel this is a dead-end...

I have no problem discussing this with those who are interested... what I do not understand is the need to TRASH the work and thought process which may in turn lead to other "discoveries" that could be helpful...

Shots were fired from behind the picket fence, from the RR yard.
Bowers sees two men
Hoffman sees two men
A man is seen wandering down the tracks with a rifle
MORE than 3 tramps are pulled from the train cars
These men were described as "dirty and smelly", that the photos do not do them justice and one has to look closely.... (no matter how close you look, the two young ones are NOT dirty in the least)
The eldest "tramp" has a paper bag from which Wise takes a knife and returns the bag... the bag is in this man's possession in the photos
They are brought to Decker, then sent to Fritz - then a "senior Homicide Dect tells Wise to bring them back to Decker... Wise is then dismissed.
Wise returns to Decker's office to see if the three will be incarcerated and so WISE can take credit for the arrest...
One of Decker's deputies tells him they were released.... even though we come to find three Arrest reports and the tramps themselves stating they spent 3 days in jail.

The ARREST REPORTS eminate from the Dallas Police Dept (Fritz)... NOT the Sheriff (Decker)

At what point do these three men get BACK to the DPD and to jail...
and who did Decker release? Decker has always been a concern... and here we have a direct statement that he not only spoke directly to these men (which other suspects/witnesses does Decker call into his office that afternoon?) but shuffles them out the back door - so to speak.

What possible purpose is served by Decker meeting with these three men, TWICE, if they were simply smelly old tramps.... yet them winding up in DPD custody.

Yet the attached tells yet another story... http://jfkassassinationfiles.com/fbi_124-10179-10312

Phil Dragoo
03-14-2013, 08:21 PM
LaFontaines attempt a finesse with Oswald Talked. Yet I insist their trio is not that of the Beers-Smith-Allen photos.

Weberman-Canfield's Sturgis-Carswell-Hunt ca. '75; Holt & Lois Gibson's Harrelson, Ice Box Killer, Holt in the 'nineties.

Prouty terms them "actors"; brings in Krulak to backstop his Lansdale ID.

Lansdale, per Prouty, was the master of mounting false flag stage acts to capture the hearts and minds.

The most cogent explanation of the trio is the Picket Fence Team in hiding.

Or, in the alternative, it serves the bookend to the seizure-ambulance-run prior.

The illusionist distracts from substantive movement.

The Drifter's Escape

Jan Klimkowski
03-14-2013, 08:47 PM
The "tramps" were created to distract.

Does anyone actually believe that E and E systems for Facilitators and Mechanics in Dealey Plaza would be so poorly planned as to allow for capture and public display of the guilty -- unless it all was part of the operation?



I agree that it is highly likely that the "tramps" are visible proof of an operation by trained intelligence hands.

The "guns down" stance of the fake cops, the un-hobo clothes of the "tramps", their parading.

Yes, this is most likely a deliberate distraction.

However, it is a distraction which resonates.

A distraction which reveals some of the Mechanical details of the public slaughter of JFK.

Cliff Varnell
03-14-2013, 11:15 PM
The Drifter's Escape


I've long thought of them as back-up patsies most likely, especially if that's Harrelson and Hunt, two guys who were later tapped to take the fall for large crimes.

Jack Lawrence, another back-up patsy perhaps. He and Lyndon both got sick to their stomachs that afternoon...perhaps the sickening sensation that comes with the strong suspicion one has been set up as a Suspect...