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David Guyatt
05-06-2009, 11:57 AM
Anyone willing to take a bet now that after the next election when that tosser Cameron comes to power he will continue the ID card scheme?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8035002.stm

Manchester launch for ID cards
Manchester will this autumn become the first city where people can sign up for an ID card, Jacqui Smith is to confirm.

Anyone over 16 in the city with a UK passport will be able to apply for a card from the Home Office.

The home secretary's speech signals her determination to push ahead with the cards, which will initially cost £30, despite opposition.

The Tories and Lib Dems want the £5bn scheme scrapped, while some Labour MPs have expressed doubts about its cost.

People in Manchester who want an ID card can register their interest on the Directgov website.

They will then be told later in the year how to get their card, which will probably involve a visit to the Manchester passport office to be interviewed and have their fingerprints and photo taken.

The Conservatives claim the Cabinet is split on ID cards, with some ministers keen to scrap them to save money.

But the Home Office says it is determined to push ahead, claiming ID cards will reduce fraud - thus saving money - and are vital to combating terrorism and organised crime.

Giving fingerprints

The Manchester launch will mark the beginning of the main phase of the ID scheme which ministers say will culminate in cards being available nationwide by 2012.

ID CARD TIMETABLE
2009: Workers at Manchester and London City airport
Autumn 2009: Manchester pilot
2010: Students opening bank accounts offered ID cards
2011/12: All UK passport applicants
2015: 90% foreign nationals covered
2017: Full roll-out?

At a series of meetings on Wednesday, Ms Smith said post offices and pharmacies could play an important role in the success of the ID scheme, allowing people to give their fingerprints and a face scan while "out doing the shopping".

The cost of the cards will be capped at £30 for the first two years and then there will be an additional cost to the applicant of getting a card via a post office or High Street pharmacy.

This charge has yet to be decided, but the Home Office says it hopes it will be "competitive", and reports have put the total cost at about £60.

People in Manchester will only be able to get the cards by applying directly to the National Identity Service. They will not be able to get them from shops and post offices for another two years.

"ID cards will deliver real benefits to everyone, including increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists," the home secretary said.

Government officials will seek to allay people's concerns about the amount of personal data to be collected and retained for the new cards, saying it will be no greater than for passports.

"I think it is important to recognise that we're not collecting some massive accumulation of information about citizens," said James Hall, chief executive of the Identity and Passport Service.

Airport resistance

Non-EU residents have been required to have identity cards since the end of last year.

Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling said the Conservatives would scrap ID cards but were not "assuming vast savings", as much of the money has already been spent.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "We are still talking about somewhere between £1bn and £2bn which, at a time when our public finances are in a right Royal mess, is a saving worth having in my view."

“ I have done nothing wrong and I have nothing to hide, why wouldn't I want a card? ”
Mike, Manchester
He claimed "the government's plans are quite clearly for a compulsory ID card scheme in the end" and people on low incomes, such as pensioners, should not be forced to pay for them.

He also questioned the value of the Manchester trial, arguing it was "very hard to see" how it could be made to work on a voluntary basis in a single city.

If the Conservatives win the next election they would scrap the scheme, said Mr Grayling, adding: "We don't think the nation can afford them and they won't happen."

'Big Brother'

Efforts to issue cards to pilots and other airport workers - a scheme which is being trialled at Manchester and London City airports - are meeting with growing resistance.

Pilots say they are effectively being forced into signing up for the cards.

"Our members believed the government promise that the ID card would be voluntary," said Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the pilots' union Balpa.

"But they now know it is anything but. Our members must have an airside pass to operate aircraft and now discover that to get that pass they must have a national ID card.

"This is coercion and a case of Big Brother knows best."

Officials said they were prepared to work with unions to resolve any differences but stressed that ID cards would improve security at airports and speed up recruitment procedures.

Dr Edgar Whitley of the London School of Economics has been warning about the cost of the scheme - which he has estimated at £10bn-£20bn - for the past four years.

The government's figure for the cost to the Home Office is about £5bn.

Dr Whitley told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The more I learn about it, the less impressed I've become.

"The government said one of the benefits would be you'll be able to use your identity card to get personalised public services.

"But the most recent date for when that will start to happen is 2015. So the people in Manchester, if they enrol with their cards, won't get any particular benefit until four or five years from now."

Peter Presland
05-06-2009, 01:54 PM
David

I have no doubt whatever that an National ID database scheme will proceed one way or another whatever political party is nominally 'in control'. It is just too central to the requirements of an efficient Security/Surveillance State for it to be any other way. It may require a presentational rethink but its essential outlines will remain; viz the ability of the State and its appointed agents to: track your every movement; to facilitate automated entry into 'sensitive' buildings/areas and trigger an 'appropriate' response where non-ID authorised entry is attempted; to render your every financial transaction (other than cash/barter) subject to surveillance for 'patterns', 'irregularities' etc. etc. But of course, if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear, and BIG brother always has your best interests at heart eh?

Motor vehicle journeys can and are already monitored in a relatively rudimentary fashion; a simple RFID chip in the ID card (or in your backside??) and a suitable receiver on every existing CCTV camera - or every street corner come to that - will be the culmination of Orwell's 1984.

Funnily enough I've just finished re-reading it and I have to say it still makes some chilling and very telling points about just where we are headed.

Magda Hassan
05-06-2009, 02:11 PM
Disgusting isn't it. Nothing more than a modern equivalent of the IBM tattoo.

Peter Lemkin
05-06-2009, 04:05 PM
Anyone willing to take a bet now that after the next election when that tosser Cameron comes to power he will continue the ID card scheme?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8035002.stm

Manchester launch for ID cards
Manchester will this autumn become the first city where people can sign up for an ID card, Jacqui Smith is to confirm.

Anyone over 16 in the city with a UK passport will be able to apply for a card from the Home Office.

The home secretary's speech signals her determination to push ahead with the cards, which will initially cost £30, despite opposition.

The Tories and Lib Dems want the £5bn scheme scrapped, while some Labour MPs have expressed doubts about its cost.

People in Manchester who want an ID card can register their interest on the Directgov website.

They will then be told later in the year how to get their card, which will probably involve a visit to the Manchester passport office to be interviewed and have their fingerprints and photo taken.

The Conservatives claim the Cabinet is split on ID cards, with some ministers keen to scrap them to save money.

But the Home Office says it is determined to push ahead, claiming ID cards will reduce fraud - thus saving money - and are vital to combating terrorism and organised crime.

Giving fingerprints

The Manchester launch will mark the beginning of the main phase of the ID scheme which ministers say will culminate in cards being available nationwide by 2012.

ID CARD TIMETABLE
2009: Workers at Manchester and London City airport
Autumn 2009: Manchester pilot
2010: Students opening bank accounts offered ID cards
2011/12: All UK passport applicants
2015: 90% foreign nationals covered
2017: Full roll-out?

At a series of meetings on Wednesday, Ms Smith said post offices and pharmacies could play an important role in the success of the ID scheme, allowing people to give their fingerprints and a face scan while "out doing the shopping".

The cost of the cards will be capped at £30 for the first two years and then there will be an additional cost to the applicant of getting a card via a post office or High Street pharmacy.

This charge has yet to be decided, but the Home Office says it hopes it will be "competitive", and reports have put the total cost at about £60.

People in Manchester will only be able to get the cards by applying directly to the National Identity Service. They will not be able to get them from shops and post offices for another two years.

"ID cards will deliver real benefits to everyone, including increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists," the home secretary said.

Government officials will seek to allay people's concerns about the amount of personal data to be collected and retained for the new cards, saying it will be no greater than for passports.

"I think it is important to recognise that we're not collecting some massive accumulation of information about citizens," said James Hall, chief executive of the Identity and Passport Service.

Airport resistance

Non-EU residents have been required to have identity cards since the end of last year.

Shadow home secretary Chris Grayling said the Conservatives would scrap ID cards but were not "assuming vast savings", as much of the money has already been spent.

He told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "We are still talking about somewhere between £1bn and £2bn which, at a time when our public finances are in a right Royal mess, is a saving worth having in my view."

“ I have done nothing wrong and I have nothing to hide, why wouldn't I want a card? ”
Mike, Manchester
He claimed "the government's plans are quite clearly for a compulsory ID card scheme in the end" and people on low incomes, such as pensioners, should not be forced to pay for them.

He also questioned the value of the Manchester trial, arguing it was "very hard to see" how it could be made to work on a voluntary basis in a single city.

If the Conservatives win the next election they would scrap the scheme, said Mr Grayling, adding: "We don't think the nation can afford them and they won't happen."

'Big Brother'

Efforts to issue cards to pilots and other airport workers - a scheme which is being trialled at Manchester and London City airports - are meeting with growing resistance.

Pilots say they are effectively being forced into signing up for the cards.

"Our members believed the government promise that the ID card would be voluntary," said Jim McAuslan, general secretary of the pilots' union Balpa.

"But they now know it is anything but. Our members must have an airside pass to operate aircraft and now discover that to get that pass they must have a national ID card.

"This is coercion and a case of Big Brother knows best."

Officials said they were prepared to work with unions to resolve any differences but stressed that ID cards would improve security at airports and speed up recruitment procedures.

Dr Edgar Whitley of the London School of Economics has been warning about the cost of the scheme - which he has estimated at £10bn-£20bn - for the past four years.

The government's figure for the cost to the Home Office is about £5bn.

Dr Whitley told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The more I learn about it, the less impressed I've become.

"The government said one of the benefits would be you'll be able to use your identity card to get personalised public services.

"But the most recent date for when that will start to happen is 2015. So the people in Manchester, if they enrol with their cards, won't get any particular benefit until four or five years from now."

Without an RFID chip implant, it is just a stop-gap half-measure. :dancing2: 'Roll-up your arm, and bend over...!' Does it come with a free 'Fascism Is Fun' Colouring Book for the children?

Peter Presland
05-06-2009, 04:49 PM
This is becoming surreal: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8036536.stm)

"Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said post offices and pharmacies could play an important role in the success of the ID scheme, allowing people to give their fingerprints and a face scan while "out doing the shopping"

Cool eh?

You can watch a video of our Jacqui at the above link. She looks like a rabbit caught in headlights and is clearly way out of her depth.


High Street retailers have rejected security fears about giving them the job of fingerprinting and photographing people applying for identity cards.

The Home Office has axed plans to set up ID card enrolment centres and instead wants pharmacies, post offices and photographic shops to do the work. Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said post offices and pharmacies could play an important role in the success of the ID scheme, allowing people to give their fingerprints and a face scan while "out doing the shopping". She added: "ID cards will deliver real benefits to everyone, including increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists."
Trade bodies representing chains such as Boots and Snappy Snaps told the BBC they can be trusted with the data. It came as it was confirmed that ID cards would be piloted in Manchester. During the pilot Manchester residents who want an ID card will be able to apply for it online and then attend the city's passport office for fingerprinting, photograph and possible interview. During the two year pilot phase they will not be able to register for cards at local shops and post offices.

'Real benefits'
The cost of the cards will be capped at £30 for the two years but once retailers are brought in to collect the data stores will be able to charge for processing it, with the total cost to applicants expected to be £60 per card.

Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said post offices and pharmacies could play an important role in the success of the ID scheme, allowing people to give their fingerprints and a face scan while "out doing the shopping". She added: "ID cards will deliver real benefits to everyone, including increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists."

The Home Office is keen to cut costs and to make ID cards "consumer driven" rather than imposed from Whitehall, in line with the recommendations of a report last year by former HBOS bank chief executive Sir James Crosby. The Identity and Passport Service is in talks with the Post Office and the Photo Marketing Association (PMA), the trade body for photographic outlets such as Snappy Snaps, where it is already possible to get passport photos taken.


“The identity and passport service has been looking at community pharmacy, because we're very used to working with confidential and sensitive information” John Turk, national pharmacy association

Asked whether photographic shops could really be trusted to handle such sensitive data as people's fingerprints, the PMA's UK secretary Nigel McNaught said it would depend on the technology but shops would also be transmitting photographic data electronically for new biometric passports.
"In the same way the fingerprint data will also be collected - biometric data will be collected - and transmitted online to the IPS," he told BBC Radio 4's The World at One.

'Sensitive information'
The chief executive of the National Pharmacy Association, John Turk, who has also been in talks with the government, said security would be a priority.

"I think that is one of the main concerns and I think that is why the identity and passport service has been looking at community pharmacy, because we're very used to working with confidential and sensitive information. So there's already a high degree of security within a community pharmacy and they're very aware of confidentiality and information about individuals."

But the main opposition parties in the UK remain strongly opposed to ID cards and say they would scrap them if they win power.
Shadow home secretary, Chris Grayling, for the Conservatives, said: "The government is split down the middle on ID cards but it looks as if Jacqui Smith is carrying on regardless.

"Piloting the scheme in one city is nonsensical and will only serve as a tax on the people of Manchester. They should abandon this farce and scrap the whole scheme."

'Stop digging'
Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne accused the government of "frittering away" billions of pounds on "an unnecessary and intrusive ID card scheme during the biggest crisis in public finances for a generation".


"I have done nothing wrong and I have nothing to hide, why wouldn't I want a card? ” Mike, Manchester

He added: "Instead of recruiting chemists and post offices, Jacqui Smith should save us all some money and scrap this ridiculous scheme. When in a hole, stop digging."

SNP Home Affairs spokesperson, Pete Wishart MP, said: "It says everything about Labour's priorities that, when they are slashing essential frontline investment, they are throwing away billions on an unwanted, expensive and unnecessary ID card scheme."
Campaign group NO2ID dismissed the Manchester pilot as a "publicity stunt" aimed at distracting attention from what it claims is a £250m increase in the cost of the project.

Jan Klimkowski
05-06-2009, 05:51 PM
Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said post offices and pharmacies could play an important role in the success of the ID scheme, allowing people to give their fingerprints and a face scan while "out doing the shopping". She added: "ID cards will deliver real benefits to everyone, including increased protection against criminals, illegal immigrants and terrorists."



"When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master— that's all."


Through the Looking Glass, and What Alice Found There

Magda Hassan
05-06-2009, 10:22 PM
'Real benefits'
The cost of the cards will be capped at £30 for the two years but once retailers are brought in to collect the data stores will be able to charge for processing it, with the total cost to applicants expected to be £60 per card.My God, one even has to pay for one's own enslavement?

Peter Presland
05-07-2009, 06:53 AM
My God, one even has to pay for one's own enslavement?

Well it's easy enough to see where this is going. They have had a few hiccoughs so far; not been careful enough with the presentational spin and they've been fretting about it a great deal. But, in essence it is being sold as a very valuable benefit; one which will make your life a lot easier and simpler and - soto-voce - will also make you a worthy ally; a good citizen; a patriot; a hero even - in the ' War on Terror'. What that translates into is that they intend to make life very difficult indeed for people who insist on declining the 'benefit'.

Cameron makes much of his intention to scrap the scheme, but his words are always carefully chosen. It is THIS government's CURRENT scheme that he 'intends to scrap - and always because it is 'an extravagant, grandiose waste of money' - and in a whisper 'in our present circumstances'. There has never been a principled objection from him on libertarian grounds and I doubt there ever will be.

Our Jacqui's charging ploy is aimed at undermining Cameron's objections and I fully expect to see him challenged hard on the principle as this progresses. He's going to find that difficult to deal with.

There is a well organised 'NO2ID' campaign (http://www.no2id.net/) and it's just possible that another big terrorist attack (this time successful - the last half dozen or so much ballyhood big ones having resulted in all arrested 'suspects' being released without charge (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/22/11-men-released-anti-terror-raids)) will be needed for it to be definitively beaten and a comprehensive National ID database scheme compulsorily introduced. My guess is that, in spite of much reported technical difficulties etc etc - it is pretty much on the stocks and waiting to go because the technical difficulties really are just not so difficult any more.

Magda Hassan
05-07-2009, 07:48 AM
one which will make your life a lot easier and simpler... What that translates into is that they intend to make life very difficult indeed for people who insist on declining the 'benefit'.That's what they'll do for sure. It will be next to impossible to to anything or access any government services with out it. Eventually you wont be able to move out the front door with out it.... "Don't leave home with out it!" You will be charged extortionate amounts for services or anything with out it (and later with it....) In fact you may not be able to get housing with out it. Or have a bank account. Or apply for a loan. Or apply for a job. But it wont be compulsory, oh, no, it will be your 'choice' alone.

And what it obvious to me is that it will just create yet another black market in IDs. Only the compliant sheep and criminals will want it.

David Guyatt
05-07-2009, 09:02 AM
And we've noticed how the "compliant sheep" feature in news clips and newspaper stories when objections are raised. The "if you're innocent you've got nothing to worry about" refrain.