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Myra Bronstein
10-22-2008, 01:18 AM
Has anyone read "Programmed to Kill: The Politics of Serial Murder by David McGowan?
http://www.amazon.com/Programmed-Kill-Politics-Serial-Murder/dp/0595326404

I'm considering reading it and I'd welcome reviews from anyone who has.

Because I'm inclined to think of Charles Manson as a gov't mind control subject helping to usher out the 'peace and love" '60s, I'm open to the possibility that other mass/serial killers were/are MK. That seems to be the premise of this book.

Have you read another book on this subject, or do you have an opinion on whether or not mass/serial killers are sponsored by gov't?

Charles Drago
10-22-2008, 02:03 AM
From superficial "inside" jokes to fiendishly clever reimaginings of actual operations, the stuff of Ian Fleming's many plots and subplots is worthy of book-length analyses.

Permit me to direct your attention to arguably the most unsettling -- and revealing -- of the Fleming dramatis personae. James Bond's nemesis in From Russia with Love is the psychopath Red Grant, alias Krassno Granitski, alias Captain Norman Nash. (In the aforementioned "'inside' joke" department: "Nash" is the transliteration of the Russian slang for "one of ours." Reference Richard Case Nagell's elaboration as proffered in The Man Who Knew Too Much. Know that Fleming was fluent in Russian.)

While, as Kingsley Amis points out in his The James Bond Dossier, Grant is not the true villain of the novel (a distinction reserved for the execrable Rosa Klebb), he nonetheless stands out in the canon for reasons relating to Myra's query.

Grant's homicidal pathology is endlessly fascinating to those of us for whom Peter Levenda's Sinister Forces trilogy stands as an essential guide for a tour of the darkest realms of political/intelligence intrigue.

You see, Grant, a British enlisted man assigned to Germany, just happens to be a lunar cycle serial killer. He is identified and seduced by SMERSH, and he defects to the Soviets, who somehow are able not only to manage his urges, but also direct them purposefully.

(And so we travel from Lektor to Lecter -- sorry, all this "inside" stuff is getting to me.)

How much did Fleming know about operations designed to control both "normal" and abnormal minds? Remember, we're talking 1957 here, a point in time long before MK/ULTRA, ARTICHOKE, and similar programs had been raised to popular consciousness.

I'm afraid, Myra, that you're on to something.

But in the "lemonade out of lemons" department, an idea for the next Hannibal Lecter novel: The good doctor allows himself to be recruited by an unnamed intelligence service for use in a conspiracy of world-historic proportions ... which of course he turns to his own ends. But perhaps ... just perhaps ... he has been their creation all along ... or they have been his ... or ...

David Guyatt
10-22-2008, 08:28 AM
Charlie, my guess is that Fleming may well have had an insight into the techniques of hypnosis that prefigured MK-ULTRA that were used during WWII and pioneered by George Estabrooks (a Rhodes scholar no less).

During the war Estabrooks worked for military intelligence and was able to create a “hypnotic courier” to safely carry secret messages without fear that the other side could forcibly extract the information:

http://www.whale.to/b/estabrooks.html

Fleming was, as you know, a naval intelligence officer during the war who was stationed at the top secret code breaking Bletchley Park. As such he very likely had access to a whole range of secrets:

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/2431364.m5ec/?from=ec&to=2431364&l=i_spy_how_ian_fleming_made_station_x_immortal

I also think Myra is quite likely to be correct in considering that Charles Manson and others may have been programmed. The use of such people has obvious advantages of tailoring public opinion to accept changes they would not otherwise tolerate.

Jan Klimkowski
10-22-2008, 08:19 PM
Actually, Manson probably wasn't a programmed killer. After all, Charlie didn't personally kill any of the known victims of the Family.

Peter Levenda explored fascinating details of Manson's roots in Sinister Forces, and there are several homicides which were likely committed by Manson's Family, and perhaps Manson himself, for which noone has been convicted. But none of that necessarily makes Charlie himself a programmed killer.

I do think he was subjected to programming though.

My working hypothesis is that Manson's fractured psyche - used, abused, unloved & repeatedly traumatized from birth - perfectly fit the profile required by the MK-ULTRA* spooks roaming prisons, reform schools & orphanages for experimental subjects. And that Manson's psyche was then experimented on: either by the spooks themselves, or their proxies (cult & religious groups etc).

My working hypothesis is that Manson proved a fascinating and resilient subject, who over time either learned, or was taught, how to use techniques of control and/or programming over others. Manson went from mind controlled guinea pig, to mind controlling guinea pig.

He became a controlled controller.

Intriguingly, at key times in his preaching career, Jim Jones (of Jonestown fame) disappears and there is evidence that he actually spent the time in a neuropsychiatric hospital in Hawaii. It's quite possible that "charismatic leader" Jim Jones' programming was being reinforced and fine-tuned.

I am certain that at some stage in history - probably starting in the early 60s - a giant, anarchic, reckless experiment was undertaken, and MK-ULTRA "research" was let out into the community at large. MK-ULTRA moved from experiments in prisons, orphanages & in black wings of hospital, and on foreign PoWs, military personnel and within certain military families, to cults & religious groups. Charismatic leaders were created and funded - eg Jim Jones. Faux revolutionary groups were constructed - eg the Symbionese Liberation Army.

Jim Jones was a controlled controller - a perfect subject of Death Squad leader Dan Mitrione.

Donald DeFreeze was a controlled controller - the creation of Colston Westbrook and the Phoenix Program. DeFreeze learnt his lessons so well that he was able to "break" Patty Hearst in textbook fashion, splitting her personality into functioning multiples.

Or so MK-ULTRA Godfather, Dr Louis Jolyon West, effectively testified in court. And Jolly should know... :rolleyes:

I contend Charles Manson was another controlled controller - his custom brand of "acid" coming directly from MK-ULTRA labs, his nonsensical Helter Skelter vision birthed from one of L Ron Hubbard's discarded rants & his own prison experiences, and his knowledge of how to control others both a direct consequence of his own fractured psyche and endless honing by the black doctors.

-------------------

*I'm using MK-ULTRA as an umbrella term for all the covert mind control programmes - be they CIA, Naval Intelligence, Military Intelligence, deep black offspring of Paperclip etc. And ones we can only have nightmares about...

Charles Drago
10-22-2008, 10:01 PM
Jan,

Yours, in time, will become the conventional wisdom.

How odd -- and heartening -- to note that, independently and separated by thousands of miles, good minds are thinking alike.

I number Timothy McVeigh among the "altered."

In good time I'll start a new thread on what I know you understand to be the hidden purpose of repressed memory deprogramming efforts of a few years back. And I'll tell the story of how and why I was offered the opportunity to promote one relating to the JFK hit.

Charlie

Jack White
10-23-2008, 01:55 AM
Don't forget the Patty Hearst affair...SO OBVIOUS!

Jack

Myra Bronstein
10-23-2008, 03:51 AM
...
I also think Myra is quite likely to be correct in considering that Charles Manson and others may have been programmed. The use of such people has obvious advantages of tailoring public opinion to accept changes they would not otherwise tolerate.

Well, actually they're not that obvious to me David. I'm just starting to consider the possibility that some crimes against random ordinary people (as opposed to VIPs like JFK, RFK, MLK...) may be committed by killers programmed by gov't. I'm certainly not convinced yet that it's happened; I'm just open to the possibility. I'm considering reading the book I mentioned in this thread, and looking for others on the subject.

But I'm pretty hazy on the theoretical advantages to gov't. I have a vague sense that it would generally benefit a fascist regime to keep sheeple afraid and looking for big daddy to keep them "safe." In general frightened people are prefered by regimes because they can't think clearly.

But that seems to be a rather weak rationale for a gov't to go to all the trouble of manufacturing serial and mass killers unless they're going to use the resulting "shock" in the way Naomi Klein describes--to pass legislation that otherwise couldn't be passed. And I can see some logic to having Manson's minions help usher out the peace/love/trust era in favor of the war/profit/mistrust era. But why program killers to go around nailing ordinary people?

Could they be doing some kind of advanced testing on subjects to see how much mileage they can get out of a programmed killer, so that when they have a VIP target (like John Lennon for example) they feel assured that the assigned killer (like Mark Chapman for example) is up to the task?

Myra Bronstein
10-23-2008, 04:01 AM
Don't forget the Patty Hearst affair...SO OBVIOUS!

Jack

It is?
Er, help me out here Jack.
Why would the government have wanted Patty Hearst to be programmed, or to be programmed a specific way? Was it to discredit left wingers since the SLA was supposedly left wing?

Why was Patty Hearst specifically targeted?

Myra Bronstein
10-23-2008, 04:05 AM
...
I number Timothy McVeigh among the "altered."
...
Charlie

I welcome any insights into the McVeigh/Oklahoma City episode.

I don't see where it fits into the big pattern. He was portrayed as a right winger, wasn't he?

Myra Bronstein
10-23-2008, 05:58 AM
The subject of Tim McVeigh, certainly deserving of its own thread and apparently a quasi-obsession of mine, is continued here:

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198

David Guyatt
10-23-2008, 10:44 AM
Well, actually they're not that obvious to me David. I'm just starting to consider the possibility that some crimes against random ordinary people (as opposed to VIPs like JFK, RFK, MLK...) may be committed by killers programmed by gov't. I'm certainly not convinced yet that it's happened; I'm just open to the possibility. I'm considering reading the book I mentioned in this thread, and looking for others on the subject.

But I'm pretty hazy on the theoretical advantages to gov't. I have a vague sense that it would generally benefit a fascist regime to keep sheeple afraid and looking for big daddy to keep them "safe." In general frightened people are prefered by regimes because they can't think clearly.

But that seems to be a rather weak rationale for a gov't to go to all the trouble of manufacturing serial and mass killers unless they're going to use the resulting "shock" in the way Naomi Klein describes--to pass legislation that otherwise couldn't be passed. And I can see some logic to having Manson's minions help usher out the peace/love/trust era in favor of the war/profit/mistrust era. But why program killers to go around nailing ordinary people?

Could they be doing some kind of advanced testing on subjects to see how much mileage they can get out of a programmed killer, so that when they have a VIP target (like John Lennon for example) they feel assured that the assigned killer (like Mark Chapman for example) is up to the task?

I agree Myra that there are few incontrovertible facts available that we can point to, but we really can't expect that either, I think. If we extend the logic of the lone assassin model -- where selected individuals are assassinated - to a wider field, we can begin to look at any number of apparently random and very high profile killing sprees around the world by 'crazy men" who often then commit suicide. I'm thinking of school children being killed in droves as well as ordinary citizens going about their business at shopping malls etc.

This obviously is speculative. However, as a former handgun owner I was interested in the so called Dunblane massacre in Scotland when 15 school children and one teacher were shot dead. The shooter, Thomas Hamilton then shoots himself dead.

Hamilton had four different handguns on him to wreak this havoc. Thereafter a bill was passed in Parliament outlawing ownership of handguns which had, in any case, been extremely carefully controlled via a police licensing system (you couldn't just go and buy one or buy ammunition either). Today in the UK no one other than designated state employees (police, military, security types etc) can own handguns.

The result is an unarmed law abiding citizenry.

But paradoxically (perhaps?) the illegal ownership and use of handguns in the UK has risen enormously. Now almost every street punk and dope peddler in the country has a midnight special and regularly use them.

The same sceanrio is now beginning to happen regarding the ownership of knives following mny headline grabbing knife killings. Knives are, in any case, already fairly stringently restricted by law already but new legislation is being looked at to restrict them even more.

There are many, many cases of similar cases to Dunblane dotted throughout the world.