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David Guyatt
04-10-2010, 10:03 AM
From Sue Grant:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/8612825.stm


Polish president 'in plane crash'
Polish President Lech Kaczynski and scores of others are believed to have been killed in a plane crash in Russia.

Officials in the Smolensk region said no-one had survived after the plane apparently hit trees as it came in for landing in thick fog.

Several other government figures, including the army chief of staff, were also thought to have been on board.

They were in Russia to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when the Soviets killed thousands of Poles.

The BBC's Adam Easton in Warsaw says the crash is a catastrophe for the Polish people.

He says Prime Minister Donald Tusk was reportedly in tears when he was told.

Plane 'hit trees'

The Russian emergencies ministry told Itar-Tass news agency the plane crashed at 1056 Moscow time (0656 GMT).

Ministry spokeswoman Irina Andrianova said it had been flying from Moscow to Smolensk, but had no details on the identities of those killed.

Smolensk regional governor Sergei Antufiev told Russian TV that no-one had survived.

"As it was preparing for landing, the Polish president's aircraft did not make it to the landing strip," he said.

"According to preliminary reports, it got caught up in the tops of trees, fell to the ground and broke up into pieces. There are no survivors in that crash.

"We are clarifying how many people there were in the [Polish] delegation. According to preliminary reports, 85 members of the delegation and the crew."

Russian investigators said there were a total of 132 people on the plane.

Controversial figure

The president was flying in a Tupolev 154, a plane that was designed in the 1960s and capable of carrying more than 100 passengers.

Our correspondent says there had been calls for Polish leaders to upgrade their planes.

As well as the president and his wife, Maria, a number of senior officials were also said to be on the passenger list.

They included the army chief of staff Gen Franciszek Gagor, central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek and deputy Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer.

Mr Kaczynski has been a controversial figure in Polish politics, advocating a right-wing Catholic agenda.

He has opposed rapid free-market reforms and favoured retaining social welfare programmes.

Peter Lemkin
04-10-2010, 10:09 AM
This just happened a short time ago. He was going to remember the Russian's mass-murder of Polish soldiers - that the Russians had long blamed on the Nazis. While there was dense fog reported on the landing, when the crash occurred, given the reason for the flight, I'm VERY suspicious of this 'accident' until proven otherwise! There were no survivors.

Here is an early report from Poland:

The plane that crashed carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski and 86 others near Smolensk was taking the passengers to mark the Katyn massacre near the town.

Kaczynski was due to visit Smolensk to mark the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviet troops killed thousands of Poles.

The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre (Polish: zbrodnia katy?ska, 'Katy? crime'), was a mass murder of thousands of Polish prisoners of war (primarily military officers), intellectuals, policemen, and other public servants by the Soviet NKVD, based on a proposal from Lavrentiy Beria to execute all members of the Polish Officer Corps. Dated March 5, 1940, this official document was then approved (signed) by the entire Soviet Politburo including Joseph Stalin and Beria.

The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, the most commonly cited number being 21 768. The victims were murdered in the Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin and Kharkov prisons and elsewhere. About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials."

Nazi Germany announced the discovery of mass graves in the Katyn Forest in 1943. The revelation led to the end of diplomatic relations between Moscow and the London-based Polish government-in-exile.

one from Moscow by Agence France Presse:

MOSCOW — A plane carrying the Polish president, Lech Kaczynski, his wife and other high-ranking officials crashed in a heavy fog in western Russia on Saturday morning, killing all aboard, Polish officials said.
Related
Putin Marks Soviet Massacre of Polish Officers (April 8, 2010)

Michal Cizek/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

Lech Kaczynski.

Russian television showed chunks of still-flaming fuselage scattered in a bare forest near Smolensk, where the president was arriving for a ceremony commemorating the murder of more than 20,000 Polish officers by the Red Army as it invaded Poland.

The governor of Smolensk region, Sergei Antufiyev, said early reports suggested that the plane, landing in a thick fog, did not reach the runway but instead hit the treetops and fell apart. Russian President Dmitri A. Medvedev ordered top officials to rush to the scene and opened an investigation into the causes of the crash.

The crash came as a stunning blow to Poland, killing many of the country’s top leaders and reviving, for some, the horror of the Katyn massacre.

“It is a damned place,” former president Aleksander Kwas’niewski told TVN24. “It sends shivers down my spine. First the flower of the Second Polish Republic is murdered in the forests around Smolensk, now the intellectual elite of the Third Polish Republic die in this tragic plane crash when approaching Smolensk airport.”

“This is a wound which will be very difficult to heal,” he said.

Former president Lech Walesa, who presided over Poland’s transition from communism, cast the crash in similar historic terms. “This is the second disaster after Katyn,” he told the news channel TVN-24. “They wanted to cut off our head there, and here the flower of our nation has also perished. Regardless of the differences, the intellectual class of those on the plane was truly great.”

The flag at the presidential palace in Warsaw was lowered as a crowd gathered, laying down flowers and lighting candles. According to Poland’s constitution, the leader of the lower house of parliament – now acting president – has 14 days to announce new elections, which must then take place within 60 days.

The plane was a Tupolev Tu-154, designed by the Soviets in the mid-1960s, and Polish officials had long complained about the country’s aging air fleet. Former prime minister Leszek Miller, who survived a helicopter crash in 2003, told a Polish news network he had long predicted such a disaster.

“I once said that we will one day meet in a funeral procession, and that is when we will take the decision to replace the aircraft fleet,” he said.

Among those on board the plane were Mr. Kaczynski; his wife, Maria; former Polish president-in-exile Ryszard Kaczorowski; the deputy speaker of Poland’s parliament, Jerzy Szmajdzin’ski; the head of the president’s chancellery, Wladyslaw Stasiak; and the head of the National Security Bureau, Aleksander Szczygo.

While the death toll included much of the government, several of Warsaw’s paramount leaders were not on board – notably Prime Minister Donald Tusk, Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski and Mr. Komorowski, the head of the lower house of parliament.

Mr. Kaczynski’s death on Russian soil is another tragic event in the tumultuous relationship between Russia and Poland.

another early report - not all facts correct:


Polish leader, dozens dead in Russia jet crash

By JIM HEINTZ (AP) – 21 minutes ago

MOSCOW — Polish President Lech Kaczynski, his wife and some of the country's most prominent military and civilian leaders died Saturday along with dozens of others when the presidential plane crashed as it came in for a landing in thick fog in western Russia.

Russian and Polish officials offered conflicting death tolls but agreed there were no survivors on the Soviet-era Tupolev, which was taking the president, his wife and staff to events marking the 70th anniversary of the massacre of thousands of Polish officers by Soviet secret police.

The Army chief of staff, Gen. Franciszek Gagor, National Bank President Slawomir Skrzypek and Deputy Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer were also on board, the Polish foreign ministry said.

The head of Russia's top investigative body, Sergei Markin, said there were a total of 132 people on the Tu-154. Poland's Foreign Ministry spokesman, Piotr Paszkowski, said there were 89 people on the passenger list but one person had not shown up.

"We still cannot fully understand the scope of this tragedy and what it means for us in the future. Nothing like this has ever happened in Poland," Paszkowski said. "We can assume with great certainty that all persons on board have been killed."

The governor of the Smolensk region, where the crash took place about 11 a.m. (0700 GMT), also said no one survived.

Rossiya-24 showed footage from the crash site, with pieces of the plane scattered widely amid leafless trees and small fires burning in woods shrouded with fog. A tail fin with the Polish red and white colors stuck up from the debris.

"The Polish presidential plane did not make it to the runway while landing. Tentative findings indicate that it hit the treetops and fell apart," Sergei Anufriev said on state news channel Rossiya-24. "Nobody has survived the disaster."

The presidential Tu-154 was at least 20 years old. Polish officials have long discussed replacing the planes that carry the country's leaders but said they lacked the funds. According to the Aviation Safety Network, there have been 66 crashes involving Tu-154s, including six in the past five years. The Russian carrier Aeroflot recently withdrew its Tu-154 fleet from service.

The crash is likely to be a setback in Polish-Russian relations which had been improving of late after being poisoned for decades over the Katyn massacre.

Russia never has formally apologized for the murders of some 22,000 Polish officers, but Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's decision to attend a memorial ceremony earlier this week in the forest near Katyn was seen as a gesture of goodwill toward reconciliation. Rossiya-24 showed hundreds of people around the Katyn monument, many were holding Polish flags, some of them were weeping.

In Warsaw, Prime Minister Donald Tusk called an extraordinary meeting of his Cabinet and the national flag was lowered to half-staff at the presidential palace

Poland's president is commander-in-chief of its armed forces but the position's domestic duties are chiefly symbolic. Kaczynski, 60, became president in December 2005 after defeating Tusk in that year's presidential vote.

The nationalist conservative was the twin brother of Poland's opposition leader, former Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski.

Kaczynski had said he would seek a second term in presidential elections this fall. He was expected to face an uphill struggle against Parliament speaker Bronislaw Komorowski, the candidate of Tusk's governing Civic Platform party.

According to the constitution, Komorowski would take over presidential duties.

Kaczynski's wife, Maria, was an economist. They had a daughter, Marta, and two granddaughters.

Poland, a nation of 38 million people, is by far the largest of the 10 formerly communist countries that have joined the European Union in recent years.

Last year, Poland was the only EU nation to avoid recession and posted economic growth of 1.7 percent.

It has become a firm U.S. ally in the region since the fall of communism — a stance that crosses party lines.

The country sent troops to the U.S.-led war in Iraq and recently boosted its contingent in Afghanistan to some 2,600 soldiers.

U.S. Patriot missiles are expected to be deployed in Poland this year. That was a Polish condition for a 2008 deal — backed by both Kaczynski and Tusk — to host long-range missile defense interceptors.

The deal, which was struck by the Bush administration, angered Russia and was later reconfigured under President Barack Obama's administration.

Under the Obama plan, Poland would host a different type of missile defense interceptors as part of a more mobile system and at a later date, probably not until 2018.

Kaczynski is the first serving Polish leader to die since exiled World War II- era leader Gen. Wladyslaw Sikorski in a plane crash off Gibraltar in 1943.

U.S. State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley said Saturday, "This is a horrible tragedy for Poland and we extend to the people of Poland our deepest condolences."

Neighboring Germany's foreign minister, Guido Westerwelle, said he was "shocked and full of sadness" at Kaczynski's death.

"All the German peoiple are mourning with our Polish neighbors," Westerwelle said during a visit to South Africa.

Peter Lemkin
04-10-2010, 10:18 AM
Katyn massacre

"Katyn" and "Katy?" redirect here. For other uses, see Katyn (disambiguation).
This article is about the 1940 massacre of Polish officers. For the 1943 massacre of the Belarusian village, see Khatyn massacre.

Katyn-Kharkiv-Mednoye memorial

Mass graves at Katyn war cemetery

Graves of Generals Mieczys?aw Smorawi?ski and Bronis?aw Bohatyrewicz

5 March 1940 memo from Lavrentiy Beria to Joseph Stalin, proposing execution of Polish officers

Polish prisoners of war captured by the Red Army during the Soviet invasion of Poland

Nazi propaganda poster depicting executions of Polish military officers by the Soviets, with caption in Slovak: "Forest of the dead at Katyn."

The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre (Polish: zbrodnia katy?ska, 'Katy? crime'), was a mass murder of thousands of Polish prisoners of war (primarily military officers), intellectuals, policemen, and other public servants by the Soviet NKVD, based on a proposal from Lavrentiy Beria to execute all members of the Polish Officer Corps. Dated March 5, 1940, this official document was then approved (signed) by the entire Soviet Politburo including Joseph Stalin and Beria.[1][2][3] The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, the most commonly cited number being 21,768.[4] The victims were murdered in the Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin and Kharkov prisons and elsewhere.[5] About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials."[4] Since Poland's conscription system required every unexempted university graduate to become a reserve officer,[6] the Soviets were able to round up much of the Polish intelligentsia, and the Jewish, Ukrainian, Georgian[7] and Belarusian intelligentsia of Polish citizenship.[8]

The "Katyn massacre" refers to the massacre at Katyn Forest, near the villages of Katyn and Gnezdovo (ca. 19 km west of Smolensk, Russia), of Polish military officers in the Kozelsk prisoner-of-war camp. This was the largest of the simultaneous executions of prisoners of war from geographically distant Starobelsk and Ostashkov camps,[9] and the executions of political prisoners from West Belarus and West Ukraine,[10] shot on Stalin's orders at Katyn Forest, at the NKVD headquarters in Smolensk, at a Smolensk slaughterhouse,[1] and at prisons in Kalinin (Tver), Kharkov, Moscow, and other Soviet cities.[4] The Belorussian and Ukrainian Katyn Lists are NKVD lists of names of Polish prisoners to be murdered at various locations in Belarus and Western Ukraine.[4] The modern Polish investigation of the Katyn Massacre covered not only the massacre at Katyn forest, but also the other mass murders mentioned above.[4] There are Polish organisations such as the Katyn Committee and the Federation of Katyn Families, which again are inclusive of victims of the various mass murders at various locations.[4]

Nazi Germany announced the discovery of mass graves in the Katyn Forest in 1943. The revelation led to the end of diplomatic relations between Moscow and the London-based Polish government-in-exile. The Soviet Union continued to deny the massacres until 1990, when it finally acknowledged the perpetration of the massacre by the NKVD,[4][11][12] as well as the subsequent cover-up.[13] An investigation by the Prosecutor's General Office of the Russian Federation has confirmed Soviet responsibility for the massacres, yet does not classify this action as a war crime or an act of genocide. This acknowledgement would have made necessary the prosecution of surviving perpetrators, which is what the Polish government had requested.[4][14] The Russian government also does not classify the dead as victims of Stalinist repression, which bars formal posthumous rehabilitation.Contents [hide]
1 Prelude
2 Executions
3 Discovery
3.1 Soviet actions
3.2 Western response
3.3 Katyn in judicial proceedings
3.4 Cold War views
4 Revelations
5 In art and literature
6 Present Day Developments
7 Memorials
8 Original documents
9 See also
10 References
11 Further reading
12 External links

[edit]
Prelude

On 17 September, 1939, in violation of the Polish-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact, the Red Army invaded the territory of Poland from the east. This invasion took place while Poland had already sustained serious defeats in the wake of the German attack on the country that started on 1 September, 1939. Meanwhile, Great Britain and France, pledged by the Polish-British Common Defence Pact and Franco-Polish Military Alliance to attack Germany in the case of such an invasion, did not take any significant military action. This is referred to as the Western betrayal. At the same time the Red Army moved to invade Polish areas annexed by the Soviet Union according to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.[15] In the wake of the Red Army's quick advance, which met little resistance upon orders not to engage Soviets, between 250,000[16] and 454,700[17] Polish soldiers had become prisoners and were interned by the Soviets. About 250,000 were set free by the army almost on the spot, while 125,000 were delivered to the internal security services (the NKVD). The NKVD, in turn, quickly released 42,400 soldiers. The approximately 170,000 released were mostly soldiers of Ukrainian and Belarusian ethnicity serving in the Polish army. The 43,000 soldiers born in West Poland, then under German control, were transferred to the Germans. By November 19, the NKVD had about 40,000 Polish POWs: about 8,500 officers and warrant officers, 6,500 police officers and 25,000 soldiers and NCOs who were still being held as POWs.[18]

As early as September 19, the People's Commissar for Internal Affairs and First Rank Commissar of State Security, Lavrentiy Beria, ordered the NKVD to create the Administration for Affairs of Prisoners of War and Internees to manage Polish prisoners. The NKVD took custody of Polish prisoners from the Red Army, and proceeded to organise a network of reception centers and transit camps and arrange rail transport to prisoner-of-war camps in the western USSR. The camps were at Jukhnovo (Babynino rail station), Yuzhe (Talitsy), Kozelsk, Kozelshchyna, Oranki, Ostashkov (Stolbnyi Island on Seliger Lake near Ostashkov), Tyotkino rail station (56 mi/90 km from Putyvl), Starobielsk, Vologda (Zaenikevo rail station) and Gryazovets.[19]

Kozelsk and Starobielsk were used mainly for military officers, while Ostashkov was used mainly for Boy Scouts, gendarmes, police officers and prison officers. Prisoners at these camps were not exclusively military officers or members of the other groups mentioned but also included Polish intelligentsia. The approximate distribution of men throughout the camps was as follows: Kozelsk, 5,000; Ostashkov, 6,570; and Starobelsk, 4,000. They totaled 15,570 men.[9]

Once at the camps, from October 1939 to February 1940, the Poles were subjected to lengthy interrogations and constant political agitation by NKVD officers such as Vasily Zarubin. The Poles were encouraged to believe they would be released,[20] but the interviews were in effect a selection process to determine who would live and who would die.[1] According to NKVD reports, if the prisoners could not be induced to adopt a pro-Soviet attitude,[9] they were declared "hardened and uncompromising enemies of Soviet authority."[1]

On 5 March, 1940, pursuant to a note to Stalin from Beria, the members of the Soviet Politburo — Stalin, Vyacheslav Molotov, Kliment Voroshilov and Anastas Mikoyan; signed an order to execute 25,700 Polish "nationalists and counterrevolutionaries" kept at camps and prisons in occupied western Ukraine and Belarus.[10] The reason for the massacre, according to historian Gerhard Weinberg, is that Stalin wanted to deprive a potential future Polish military of a large portion of its military talent: "It has been suggested that the motive for this terrible step [the Katyn massacre] was to reassure the Germans as to the reality of Soviet anti-Polish policy. This explanation is completely unconvincing in view of the care with which the Soviet regime kept the massacre secret from the very German government it was supposed to impress... A more likely explanation is that... [the massacre] should be seen as looking forward to a future in which there might again be a Poland on the Soviet Union's western border. Since he intended to keep the eastern portion of the country in any case, Stalin could be certain that any revived Poland would be unfriendly. Under those circumstances, depriving it of a large proportion of its military and technical elite would make it weaker."[21]
[edit]
Executions

After 3 April, 1940, at least 22,436 POWs and prisoners were executed: 15,131 POWs (most or all of them from the three camps)[22] and at least 7,305 prisoners in western parts of Belarus and Ukraine.[23] A 1956 memo from KGB chief Alexander Shelepin to First Secretary Nikita Khrushchev contains incomplete information about the personal files of 21,857 murdered POWs and prisoners. Of them 4,421 were from Kozielsk, 3,820 from Starobielsk, 6,311 from Ostashkov, and 7,305 from Belarusian and Ukrainian prisons. Shelepin's data for prisons should be considered a minimum, because his data for POWs is incomplete (he mentions 14,552 personal files for POWs, while at least 15,131 POWs "sent to NKVD" are mentioned in contemporary documents).[citation needed]

Those who died at Katyn included an admiral, two generals, 24 colonels, 79 lieutenant colonels, 258 majors, 654 captains, 17 naval captains, 3,420 NCOs, seven chaplains, three landowners, a prince, 43 officials, 85 privates, and 131 refugees. Also among the dead were 20 university professors (including Stefan Kaczmarz); 300 physicians; several hundred lawyers, engineers, and teachers; and more than 100 writers and journalists as well as about 200 pilots. In all, the NKVD executed almost half the Polish officer corps.[1] Altogether, during the massacre the NKVD murdered 14 Polish generals:[24] Leon Billewicz (ret.), Bronis?aw Bohatyrewicz (ret.), Xawery Czernicki (admiral), Stanis?aw Haller (ret.), Aleksander Kowalewski (ret.), Henryk Minkiewicz (ret.), Kazimierz Orlik-?ukoski, Konstanty Plisowski (ret.), Rudolf Prich (murdered in Lviv), Franciszek Sikorski (ret.), Leonard Skierski (ret.), Piotr Skuratowicz, Mieczys?aw Smorawi?ski and Alojzy Wir-Konas (promoted posthumously). A mere 395 prisoners were saved from the slaughter,[4] among them Stanis?aw Swianiewicz and Józef Czapski.[1] They were taken to the Yukhnov camp and then down to Gryazovets. They were the only ones who escaped death.[citation needed]

Up to 99% of the remaining prisoners were subsequently murdered. People from Kozelsk were murdered in the usual mass murder site of Smolensk country, in Katyn forest; people from Starobilsk were murdered in the inner NKVD prison of Kharkiv and the bodies were buried near Piatykhatky; and police officers from Ostashkov were murdered in the inner NKVD prison of Kalinin (Tver) and buried in Miednoje (Mednoye). Detailed information on the executions in the Kalinin NKVD prison was given during the hearing by Dmitrii S. Tokarev, former head of the Board of the District NKVD in Kalinin. According to Tokarev, the shooting started in the evening and ended at dawn. The first transport on 4 April 1940, carried 390 people, and the executioners had a hard time killing so many people during one night. The following transports were no greater than 250 people. The executions were usually performed with German-made Walther PPK pistols supplied by Moscow, but Nagant M1895 revolvers were also used.[25][26] Vasili Mikhailovich Blokhin, chief executioner for the NKVD, personally shot 6,000 of those condemned to death over a period of 28 days in April 1940.[27][28]

The killings were methodical. After the condemned's personal information was checked, he was handcuffed and led to a cell insulated with a felt-lined door. The sounds of the murders were also masked by the operation of loud machines (perhaps fans) throughout the night. After being taken into the cell, the victim was immediately shot in the back of the head. His body was then taken out through the opposite door and laid in one of the five or six waiting trucks, whereupon the next condemned was taken inside. The procedure went on every night, except for the May Day holiday.[29] Near Smolensk, the Poles, with their hands tied behind their backs, were led to the graves and shot in the neck.[citation needed]

After the executions, there were still more than 22,000 former Polish soldiers in NKVD labour camps. According to Beria's report, on 2 November, 1940 his department held two generals, 39 lieutenant-colonels and colonels, 222 captains and majors, 691 lieutenants, 4022 warrant officers and NCOs and 13,321 enlisted men captured during the Polish campaign. An additional 3,300 Polish soldiers were captured during the annexation of Lithuania, where they had been kept interned since September 1939.[30]

Some 3,000 to 4,000 Polish inmates of Ukrainian prisons and those from Belarus prisons were probably buried in Bykivnia and in Kurapaty respectively.[31] Porucznik Janina Lewandowska, daughter of Gen. Józef Dowbor-Mu?nicki, was the only woman executed during the massacre at Katyn.[29][32][33]
[edit]
Discovery

Aerial photo - The graves of Katyn

Katyn 1943 exhumation. Photo by International Red Cross delegation.

The fate of the Polish prisoners was raised soon after the Nazi Germans invaded the Soviet Union in June 1941, when the Polish government-in-exile and the Soviet government signed the Sikorski-Mayski Agreement to fight Nazi Germany and form a Polish army on Soviet territory. When the Polish general W?adys?aw Anders began organizing this army, he requested information about Polish officers. During a personal meeting, Stalin assured him and W?adys?aw Sikorski, the Polish Prime Minister, that all the Poles were freed, and that not all could be accounted because the Soviets "lost track" of them in Manchuria.[34][35][36]

In 1942, Polish railroad workers found a mass grave at Katyn, and reported it to the Polish Secret State; the news was ignored, as people refused to believe the mass graves contained so many dead.[37] The fate of the missing prisoners remained unknown until April 1943 when the German Wehrmacht soldiers under Rudolf Christoph Freiherr von Gersdorff discovered the mass grave of 4,243 Polish military reserve officers in the forest on Goat Hill near Katyn.[38] Joseph Goebbels saw this discovery as an excellent tool to drive a wedge between Poland, Western Allies, and the Soviet Union. On 13 April, Berlin Radio broadcast to the world that German military forces in the Katyn forest near Smolensk had uncovered "a ditch ... 28 metres long and 16 metres wide [92 ft by 52 ft], in which the bodies of 3,000 Polish officers were piled up in 12 layers."[39] The broadcast went on to charge the Soviets with carrying out the massacre in 1940.

One of the mass graves at Katyn

The Germans assembled and brought in a European commission consisting of twelve forensic experts and their staffs from Belgium, Bulgaria, Denmark, Finland, France, Italy, Croatia, the Netherlands, Romania, Sweden, Slovakia, and Hungary. After the war, all the experts, save for a Bulgarian and a Czech, reaffirmed their 1943 finding of Soviet guilt.[40] The Katyn Massacre was beneficial to Nazi Germany, which used it to discredit the Soviet Union. Goebbels wrote in his diary on 14 April 1943: "We are now using the discovery of 12,000 Polish officers, murdered by the GPU, for anti-Bolshevik propaganda on a grand style. We sent neutral journalists and Polish intellectuals to the spot where they were found. Their reports now reaching us from ahead are gruesome. The Fuehrer has also given permission for us to hand out a drastic news item to the German press. I gave instructions to make the widest possible use of the propaganda material. We shall be able to live on it for a couple weeks."[41] The Germans had succeeded in portraying the dark side of the Soviet government to the world and briefly raised the spectre of a communist monster rampaging across the territories of Western civilization; moreover, General Sikorski's unease threatened to unravel the alliance between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

The Soviet government immediately denied the German charges and claimed that the Polish prisoners of war had been engaged in construction work west of Smolensk and consequently were captured and executed by invading German units in August 1941. The Soviet response on 15 April to the German initial broadcast of 13 April, prepared by the Soviet Information Bureau, stated that "[...]Polish prisoners-of-war who in 1941 were engaged in country construction work west of Smolensk and who [...] fell into the hands of the German-Fascist hangmen [...]."[9]

Secretary of State of the Vichy regime Fernand de Brinon 1943 in Katyn at the graves of Mieczys?aw Smorawi?ski and Bronis?aw Bohatyrewicz

The Allies were aware that the Nazis had found a mass grave as the discovery transpired, through radio transmissions intercepted and decrypted by Bletchley Park. German experts and the international commission, which was invited by Germany, investigated the Katyn corpses and soon produced physical evidence that the massacre took place in early 1940, at a time when the area was still under Soviet control.[42]

In April 1943, when the Polish government-in-exile insisted on bringing the matter to the negotiation table with the Soviets and on an investigation by the International Red Cross,[42][43] Stalin accused the Polish government in exile of collaborating with Nazi Germany, broke diplomatic relations with it,[44] and started a campaign to get the Western Allies to recognize the alternative Polish pro-Soviet government in Moscow led by Wanda Wasilewska.[45] Sikorski, whose uncompromising stance on that issue was beginning to create a rift between the Western Allies and the Soviet Union, died suddenly two months later. The cause of his death is still disputed.[46][47]
[edit]
Soviet actions

When, in September 1943, Goebbels was informed that the German army had to withdraw from the Katyn area, he entered a prediction in his diary. His entry for 29 September 1943 reads: "Unfortunately we have had to give up Katyn. The Bolsheviks undoubtedly will soon 'find' that we shot 12,000 Polish officers. That episode is one that is going to cause us quite a little trouble in the future. The Soviets are undoubtedly going to make it their business to discover as many mass graves as possible and then blame it on us."[41]

German WWII propaganda poster (in French) exploiting the massacre. The text reads: If the Soviets should win the war... Katyn [will be] everywhere!

Indeed, having retaken the Katyn area almost immediately after the Red Army had recaptured Smolensk, NKVD forces began a cover-up. A cemetery the Germans had permitted the Polish Red Cross to build was destroyed and other evidence removed.[1] In January 1944, the Soviet Union sent the "Special Commission for Determination and Investigation of the Shooting of Polish Prisoners of War by German-Fascist Invaders in Katyn Forest,"[48][9] led (at least nominally) by Alexey Tolstoy to investigate the incidents again. The "Burdenko Commission", headed by Nikolai Burdenko, the President of the Academy of Medical Sciences of the USSR, exhumed the bodies again and reached the conclusion that the shooting was done in 1941, when the Katyn area was under German occupation. No foreign personnel were allowed to join the Burdenko Commission,[1][9] whereas the Nazi German investigation had allowed wider access to both international press and organizations (like the Red Cross, with experts from Finland, Denmark, Slovakia etc) and even used Polish workers, like Józef Mackiewicz and Allied POWs.[49] The Soviet commission declared that all the shootings were done by German occupation forces in autumn 1941. The final report of the commission lists a number of items, from gold watches to letters and icons, allegedly found on the bodies. These items were said to have dates from November 1940 to June 1941, thus 'rebutting' the German claim of the Poles being shot by the Soviets. The report can be found in pro-Soviet publication Supplement to Russia at war weekly (1944); it is also printed in Dr.Joachim Hoffmann's book Stalin's Annihilation War 1941–1945 (original: Stalins Vernichtungskrieg 1941–1945).[50]
[edit]
Western response

The Western Allies had an implicit, if unwilling, hand in the cover-up in their endeavour not to antagonise a then-ally, the Soviet Union. The resulting Polish-Soviet crisis was beginning to threaten the vital alliance with the Soviet Union at a time when the Poles' importance to the Allies, essential in the first years of the war, was beginning to fade, due to the entry into the conflict of the military and industrial giants, the Soviet Union and the United States. In retrospective review of records, both British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and US President Franklin D. Roosevelt were increasingly torn between their commitments to their Polish ally, the uncompromising stance of Sikorski and the demands by Stalin and his diplomats.

In private, Churchill agreed that the atrocity was likely carried out by the Soviets. According to the notes taken by Count Raczy?ski, Churchill admitted on 15 April 1943 during a conversation with General Sikorski: "Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel."[51] However, at the same time, on 24 April 1943 Churchill assured the Soviets: "We shall certainly oppose vigorously any 'investigation' by the International Red Cross or any other body in any territory under German authority. Such investigation would be a fraud and its conclusions reached by terrorism."[52] Unofficial or classified UK documents concluded that Soviet guilt was a "near certainty", but the alliance with the Soviets was deemed to be more important than moral issues; thus the official version supported the Soviet version, up to censoring the contradictory accounts.[42] Churchill's own post-war account of the Katyn affair is laconic. In his memoirs, he quotes the 1944 Soviet inquiry into the massacre, which predictably found that the Germans had committed the crime, and adds, "belief seems an act of faith."[53] In 1943, the Katyn Manifesto which blamed the Soviet Union, was published in London (in English) by the eccentric poet Count Geoffrey Potocki de Montalk. He was arrested by the Special Branch and imprisoned.[54]

In the United States, a similar line was taken, notwithstanding that two official intelligence reports into the Katyn massacre were produced that contradicted the official position. In 1944 Roosevelt assigned his special emissary to the Balkans, Navy Lieutenant Commander George Earle, to compile information on Katyn, which he did using contacts in Bulgaria and Romania. Earle concluded that the massacre was committed by the Soviet Union. Having consulted with Elmer Davis, the director of the Office of War Information, Roosevelt rejected the conclusion (officially), declared that he was convinced of Nazi Germany's responsibility, and ordered that Earle's report be suppressed. When Earle formally requested permission to publish his findings, the President issued a written order to desist. Earle was reassigned and spent the rest of the war in American Samoa.[1]

A further report in 1945, supporting the same conclusion, was produced and stifled. In 1943, two US POWs – Lt. Col. Donald B. Stewart and Col. John H. Van Vliet – had been taken by Germans to Katyn for an international news conference.[55] Later, in 1945, Van Vliet wrote a report concluding that the Soviets, not the Germans, were responsible. He gave the report to Maj. Gen. Clayton Bissell, Gen. George Marshall's assistant chief of staff for intelligence, who destroyed it.[56] During the 1951–1952 investigation, Bissell defended his action before Congress, contending that it was not in the US interest to embarrass an ally whose forces were still needed to defeat Japan.[1]

British and American officers (POWs) brought by the Germans to view the exhumations

Polish banknotes and epaulets recovered from mass graves

"Military Dog tag" and Christian medallion recovered from the graves. The inscription reads: "In memory of Holy Baptism, Cracow, 24 October 1909".

[edit]
Katyn in judicial proceedings

From 28 December, 1945 to 4 January, 1946, seven servicemen of the German Wehrmacht were tried by a Soviet military court in Leningrad. One of them, Arno Diere, was charged with helping to dig the Katyn graves during the execution. Diere, who was accused of murder using machine-guns in Soviet villages, confessed to having taken part in burial (though not the execution) of 15-20 thousand Polish POWs in Katyn. For this he was spared execution and was given 15 years of hard labor. His confession was full of absurdities, and thus he was not used as a Soviet prosecution witness during the Nuremberg trials. In a November 29, 1954 note he recanted his confession, claiming that he was forced to confess by the investigators. Contrary to claims on several "revisionist" sites,[57] of all the accused during the Leningrad Trial, only Diere was accused of a connection to the Katyn massacre.[58]

At the London conference that drew up the indictments of German war crimes before the Nuremberg trials, the Soviet negotiators put forward the allegation, "In September, 1941, 925 Polish officers who were prisoners of war were killed in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk." The US negotiators agreed to include it, but were "embarrassed" by the inclusion (noting that the allegation had been debated extensively in the press) and concluded that it would be up to the Soviets to sustain it.[59] At the trials in 1946, Soviet General Roman A. Rudenko, raised the indictment, stating that "one of the most important criminal acts for which the major war criminals are responsible was the mass execution of Polish prisoners of war shot in the Katyn forest near Smolensk by the German fascist invaders",[60] but dropped the matter after the United States and United Kingdom refused to support it and German lawyers mounted an embarrassing defense.[1][61] Also, it was not the purpose of the court to determine whether Germany or the Soviet Union was responsible for the crime, but rather to attribute the crime to at least one of the defendants, which the court was unable to do.[62]
[edit]
Cold War views

In 1951 and 1952, in the background of the Korean War, a U.S. Congressional investigation chaired by Rep. Ray J. Madden and known as the Madden Committee investigated the Katyn massacre. It charged that the Poles had been killed by the Soviets[1] and recommended that the Soviets be tried before the International Court of Justice. The committee was however less conclusive on the issue of the US cover-up.[55] The question of responsibility remained controversial in the West as well as behind the Iron Curtain. In the United Kingdom in the late 1970s, plans for a memorial to the victims bearing the date 1940 (rather than 1941) were condemned as provocative in the political climate of the Cold War. It has been sometimes speculated that the choice made in 1969 for the location of the BSSR's war memorial at the former Belarusian village named Khatyn, a site of a 1943 Nazi massacre in which the entire village with its whole population was burned, have been made to cause confusion with Katyn.[63][64] The two names are similar or identical in many languages, and were often confused.[1][65]

In Poland, the pro-Soviet authorities covered up the matter in concord with Soviet propaganda, deliberately censoring any sources that might provide information about the crime. Katyn was a forbidden topic in postwar Poland. Not only did government censorship suppress all references to it, but even mentioning the atrocity was dangerous. Katyn became erased from Poland's official history, but it could not be erased from historical memory. In 1981, Polish trade union Solidarity erected a memorial with the simple inscription "Katyn, 1940" but it was confiscated by the police, to be replaced with an official monument "To the Polish soldiers – victims of Hitlerite fascism – reposing in the soil of Katyn". Nevertheless, every year on Zaduszki, similar memorial crosses were erected at Pow?zki cemetery and numerous other places in Poland, only to be dismantled by the police overnight. Katyn remained a political taboo in communist Poland until the fall of the Eastern bloc in 1989.[1]
[edit]
Revelations

From the late 1980s, pressure was put not only on the Polish government, but on the Soviet one as well. Polish academics tried to include Katyn in the agenda of the 1987 joint Polish-Soviet commission to investigate censored episodes of the Polish-Russian history.[1] In 1989 Soviet scholars revealed that Joseph Stalin had indeed ordered the massacre, and in 1990 Mikhail Gorbachev admitted that the NKVD had executed the Poles[66] and confirmed two other burial sites similar to the site at Katyn: Mednoye and Piatykhatky.

Monument to Katyn victims, Katowice, Poland. Inscription: "Katyn, Khark?v, Miednoye and other places of murder in the former USSR in 1940."

On 30 October 1989, Gorbachev allowed a delegation of several hundred Poles, organized by a Polish association named Families of Katy? Victims, to visit the Katyn memorial. This group included former U.S. national security advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski. A Mass was held and banners hailing the Solidarity movement were laid. One mourner affixed a sign reading "NKVD" on the memorial, covering the word "Nazis" in the inscription such that it read "In memory of Polish officers murdered by the NKVD in 1941." Several visitors scaled the fence of a nearby KGB compound and left burning candles on the grounds.[67] Brzezinski commented that:

It isn't a personal pain which has brought me here, as is the case in the majority of these people, but rather recognition of the symbolic nature of Katy?. Russians and Poles, tortured to death, lie here together. It seems very important to me that the truth should be spoken about what took place, for only with the truth can the new Soviet leadership distance itself from the crimes of Stalin and the NKVD. Only the truth can serve as the basis of true friendship between the Soviet and the Polish peoples. The truth will make a path for itself. I am convinced of this by the very fact that I was able to travel here.[68]

Brzezinski further stated that:

The fact that the Soviet government has enabled me to be here — and the Soviets know my views — is symbolic of the breach with Stalinism that perestroika represents.[69]

His remarks were given extensive coverage on Soviet television. At the ceremony he placed a bouquet of red roses bearing a handwritten message penned in both Polish and English: "For the victims of Stalin and the NKVD. Zbigniew Brzezinski."[70]

On 13 April 1990, the forty-seventh anniversary of the discovery of the mass graves, the USSR formally expressed "profound regret" and admitted Soviet secret police responsibility.[71] That day is also an International Day of Katyn Victims Memorial (?wiatowy Dzie? Pami?ci Ofiar Katynia).

After Poles and Americans discovered further evidence in 1991 and 1992, Russian President Boris Yeltsin released the top-secret documents from the sealed "Package ?1." and transferred them to the new Polish president Lech Wa??sa,[1][72] Among the documents was a proposal by Lavrenty Beria dated with 5 March 1940[73] to execute 25,700 Poles from Kozelsk, Ostashkov and Starobels camps, and from certain prisons of Western Ukraine and Belarus, signed by Stalin (among others); an excerpt from the Politburo shooting order[10] of 5 March 1940; and Aleksandr Shelepin's 3 March 1959 note[74] to Nikita Khrushchev, with information about the execution of 21,857 Poles and with the proposal to destroy their personal files.

Russian President Boris Yeltsin visits Pow?zki Cemetery monument to Katyn victims, Warsaw, 1993.[75]

A number of Russian politicians and publicists continue to deny all Soviet guilt, call the released documents fakes, and insist that the original Soviet version - Polish prisoners shot by Germans in 1941 - is the correct one.[76][77][78]

On the opposing sides there are allegations that the massacre was part of wider action coordinated by both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, or that the Germans at least knew of Katyn beforehand.[citation needed] These allegations cite the secret supplementary protocol[79] to the German-Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty, which stipulates that "Both parties will tolerate in their territories no Polish agitation which affects the territories of the other party. They will suppress in their territories all beginnings of such agitation and inform each other concerning suitable measures for this purpose". They also describe a series of conferences between the NKVD and Gestapo, organised in the town of Zakopane in 1939–1940, and claim that these conferences were held to coordinate the killing and the deportation policy[80] and exchange experience. Writing in Commentary magazine in 1981, George Watson, a Fellow in English at St. John's College, Cambridge suggested that the fate of Polish prisoners may have been discussed at the April 1940 conference.[81] This theory surfaces in Polish media,[82] where it is also pointed out that a similar massacre of Polish elites (German AB-Aktion in Poland) was taking place at the same time and with similar methods in German-occupied Poland.

In June 1998, Yeltsin and Aleksander Kwa?niewski agreed to construct memorial complexes at Katyn and Mednoye, the two NKVD execution sites on Russian soil. However, in September of that year the Russians also raised the issue of Soviet prisoner of war deaths in the camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919-1924). About 16,000 to 20,000 POWs died in those camps due to communicable diseases.[83][84] Some Russian officials argued that it was 'a genocide comparable to Katy?'.[1] A similar claim was raised in 1994; such attempts are seen by some, particularly in Poland, as a highly provocative Russian attempt to create an 'anti-Katyn' and 'balance the historical equation'.[85]

Ceremony of military upgrading of Katyn massacre victims, Pi?sudski Square, Warsaw, 10 November 2007

During Kwa?niewski's visit to Russia in September 2004, Russian officials announced that they are willing to transfer all the information on the Katyn Massacre to the Polish authorities as soon as it is declassified.[86]

In March 2005 the Prosecutor's General Office of the Russian Federation concluded the decade-long investigation of the massacre. Chief Military Prosecutor Alexander Savenkov announced that the investigation was able to confirm the deaths of 1,803 out of 14,542 Polish citizens from three Soviet camps who had been sentenced to death.[87] He did not address the fate of about 7,000 victims who had been not in POW camps, but in prisons. Savenkov declared that the massacre was not a genocide, that Soviet officials who had been found guilty of the crime were dead and that, consequently, there is absolutely no basis to talk about this in judicial terms. 116 out of 183 volumes of files gathered during the Russian investigation, were declared to contain state secrets and were classified.[88][89]

Despite earlier declarations, President Vladimir Putin's government refused to allow Polish investigators to travel to Moscow in late 2004.[90]

In late 2007 and early 2008, several Russian newspapers, including Rossiyskaya Gazeta, Komsomolskaya Pravda and Nezavisimaya Gazeta printed stories that implicated the Nazis for the crime, spurring concern that this was done with the tacit approval of the Kremlin.[78] As a result, the Polish Institute of National Remembrance decided to open its own investigation.[4][14][66] Prosecution team head Leon Kieres said they would try to identify those involved in ordering and carrying out the killings. In addition, on 22 March 2005 the Polish Sejm unanimously passed an act, requesting the Russian archives to be declassified.[91] The Sejm also requested Russia to classify the Katyn massacre as a crime of genocide.[92] The resolution stressed that the authorities of Russia "seek to diminish the burden of this crime by refusing to acknowledge it was genocide and refuse to give access to the records of the investigation into the issue, making it difficult to determine the whole truth about the murder and its perpetrators."[93]

Russia and Poland remained divided on the legal description of the Katyn crime, with the Poles considering it a case of genocide and demanding further investigations, as well as complete disclosure of Soviet documents.[93][94] In 2008, Polish Foreign Ministry asked the government of Russia about alleged footage of the massacre filmed by the NKVD during the killings. Polish officials believe that this footage, as well as further documents showing cooperation of Soviets with the Gestapo during the operations, are the reason for Russia's decision to classify most of documents about the massacre.[95]

In June 2008, Russian courts consented to hear a case about the declassification of documents about Katyn and the judicial rehabilitation of the victims. In an interview with a Polish newspaper, Vladimir Putin called Katyn a "political crime."[96]

The European Court of Human Rights communicated the Katyn claims to the Russian government on 10 October 2008.[97]
[edit]
In art and literature

Katyn-Kharkiv memorial in Piatykhatky, Kharkiv Oblast Entry obelisk

Katyn-Kharkiv memorial in Piatykhatky, Kharkiv Oblast Rows of plaques for each officer buried here

Katyn-Kharkiv memorial in Piatykhatky, Kharkiv Oblast Commemorative plaque from the Polish people

The Katyn massacre is a major plot element in many works of culture, for example, in the W.E.B. Griffin novel The Lieutenants, which is part of the Brotherhood of War series, as well as in the novel and film Enigma. Polish poet Jacek Kaczmarski has dedicated one of his sung poems to this event.[98] In a bold political statement for the height of the Cold War, Dušan Makavejev used original Nazi footage in his 1974 film Sweet Movie.

The Honorary Academy Award recipient Polish film director Andrzej Wajda,[99] whose father, Captain Jakub Wajda, was murdered in the NKVD prison of Kharkov, has made a film depicting the event, called simply Katyn.[100] The film recounts the fate of some of the women—mothers, wives and daughters—of the Polish officers slaughtered by the Soviets. Some Katyn Forest scenes are re-enacted. The screenplay is based on Andrzej Mularczyk's book Post mortem - the Katyn story. The film was produced by Akson Studio, and released in Poland on 21 September 2007. In 2008 it was nominated for the Academy Award for the Best Foreign Language Film.

In 2000, US filmmaker Steven Fischer produced a public service announcement titled Silence of Falling Leaves honoring the fallen soldiers, consisting of images of falling autumn leaves with a sound track cutting to a narration in Polish by the Warsaw-born artist Bozena Jedrzejczak. It was honored with an Emmy nomination. [101]

In the 2004 video game Metal Gear Solid 3, the primary antagonist Colonel Volgin is said to be one of the leaders behind the massacre.
[edit]
Present Day Developments

On 4 February 2010, it was reported that Vladimir Putin invited Donald Tusk to attend a Katyn memorial in April. [102] The visit took place on April 7, 2010, when Tusk and Putin together commemorated the 70th anniversary of the massacre.[103]. Before the visit, the film Katy? was shown on Russian state television--the Russian premiere for this 2007 Polish documentary. The Moscow Times commented that the Russian premiere of this film previously not shown in the country was likely a result of Putin's intervention.[104]
[edit]
Memorials

The Katyn Memorial in the P?ksów Brzyzek cemetery in Zakopane, Poland.

Several statues in memory of the massacre have been erected worldwide. In the UK, plans to build a major Katyn monument were objected to by the British government. When in 1976, a simple plaque with “KATYN 1940” [105] was put up in Gunnersbury Cemetery, west London, the first such Katyn memorial in the world,[citation needed] the local council had it removed. It was formally unveiled in September 1976, but the government was not represented at the ceremony as such a memorial was firmly opposed by it and the local council.

In Cannock Chase, Staffordshire, UK, a memorial to the victims of the Katyn Massacre was unveiled by Stefan Staniszewski, whose father Hillary Zygmunt Staniszewski (a high court judge) died in the massacre. Preserved below a small stone monument bearing a plaque with the inscription "In memoriam to the 14,000 members of the Polish Armed Forces and professional classes who were executed in Katyn Forest (1940)" are phials of soil from both Warsaw and the Katyn forest.[106][107]

A golden statue, known as the National Katyn Massacre Memorial, is located in Baltimore, Maryland, on Aliceanna Street at Inner Harbor East.[108] Polish-Americans in Detroit erected a small white-stone memorial in the form of a cross with plaque at St. Albertus Roman Catholic Church.[109] A statue commemorating the massacre is erected at Exchange Place on the Hudson River in Jersey City, New Jersey.[110]

A large metal sculpture has been erected in the Polish community of Roncesvalles in Toronto to commemorate the killings.

A simple but beautiful memorial in Johannesburg, commemorates the victims of Katyn as well as South African and Polish airmen who flew missions to drop supplies for the Warsaw Uprising.[111]

A memorial complex was erected to honor the over 4300 officer victims of the Katyn massacre murdered in Pyatykhatky, 14 kms north of Kharkiv in Ukraine; the memorial complex lies in a corner of a former resort home for NKVD officers. Children had discovered hundreds of Polish officer buttons whilst playing on the site. After excavation, the bodies were reburied with an alley of plaques, one for each of the officers shot there, stating their name, rank and town of origin. The monument is made of steel and is constantly red from rusting, evoking the blood shed by the officers. A bell sunk into the ground tolls on the hour.

Magda Hassan
04-10-2010, 10:55 AM
This is very bad. That's an awful lot of important people gone in one fell swoop. I wonder if it was an accident or not? Some one's head will roll for it.

Magda Hassan
04-10-2010, 11:03 AM
List of some of those who died in plane crash


By The Associated Press
The Associated Press
Saturday, April 10, 2010; 6:49 AM

-- Some of those who died in the crash of Poland's presidential plane, according to the Law and Justice Party, founded by President Lech Kaczynshi.
Lech Kaczysnki - Polish president.
Maria Kaczynska - The president's wife.
Ryszard Kaczorowski - Poland's last president-in-exile
Aleksander Szczyglo - head of the National Security Office
Pawel Wypych - presidential aide
Mariusz Handzlik - presidential aide
Jerzego Szmajdzinski - deputy parliament speaker
Andrzej Kremer - Deputy Foreign Minister
Gen. Franciszek Gagor - head of the army chief of staff
Andrzej Przewoznik - minister in charge of WWII memorials
Slawomir Skrzypek - head of the National Bank of Poland
Janusz Kurtyka - head of the National Remembrance Institute
Przemyslaw Gosiewski - lawmaker
Zbigniew Wassermann - lawmaker
Grzegorz Dolniak - lawmaker
Janusz Kochanowski - civil rights commissioner
Bishop Tadeusz Ploski - army chaplain

Jan Klimkowski
04-10-2010, 11:21 AM
The symbolism of this is immense.

At Katyn, Stalin and the NKVD executed the majority of the Polish officer corps.

Now, the Polish President and the entire Polish Army Command have died in Russia on their way to pay homage and respect to those thousands of slaughtered officers.

In Poland, this will play as Katyn Mark 2. Once again, the officer corps has been eliminated.

Katyn was part of the deliberate liquidation of the Polish intelligentsia - officers, doctors, professors, teachers - implemented by the USSR as part of the Nazi-Soviet Pact. The officers in particular were shot, their families deported to Siberia.

As a personal footnote, at the beginning of WW2, my 7-year-old father was arrested in the middle of the night in a small town near Lwow, Poland, and deported to Siberia, by the NKVD, because he was a male relative of two Polish army officers. Those officers were uncles of my father. Neither officer survived the war, and they may well be amongst those slaughtered by the NKVD at Katyn.

More broadly, the point is that the USSR sought to blame the Katyn massacre on the Nazis. Western governments, including Churchill and the British government, spent decades officially accepting the Russian version of events, even though the evidence showed that Katyn was clearly and unequivocally a Soviet war crime.

In addition, the Katyn massacre does not fit in with orthodox Russian history about the Great Patriotic War, and - to my knowledge - is not taught in Russian schools or accepted as a Soviet atrocity by most Russians.

Combined with events in Krygyzstan, it is entirely plausible that Putin is fighting an undeclared covert war with NATO. In Asia, he has sabotaged American and NATO military access in Krygyzstan, and in Europe, the Polish President and military top brass, who were in favour of US missile bases on Polish soil, have now met their end.

En route to Katyn.

Once again, the symbolism of this event for Poles is immense.

Magda Hassan
04-10-2010, 11:39 AM
Yes Jan, the symbolism is immense. The Russian press are making a big point of the likelihood of pilot error while all the western press are eulogizing the Prime Minister. It could well be that Putin has started an undeclared war as it seems. It may also be pilot error or it could be the west making a point or two, as usual, perhaps to the Ukraine. And they haven't had all their own way in Poland either. But I would be surprised if it was them.

Jan Klimkowski
04-10-2010, 11:53 AM
Yes Jan, the symbolism is immense. The Russian press are making a big point of the likelihood of pilot error while all the western press are eulogizing the Prime Minister. It could well be that Putin has started an undeclared war as it seems. It may also be pilot error or it could be the west making a point or two, as usual, perhaps to the Ukraine. And they haven't had all their own way in Poland either. But I would be surprised if it was them.

The Lubyanka suicide bombers.

The overthrow of the government of Krygyzstan.

The death of the Polish President and military top brass in Russia.

All these events may be as they seem on the surface: Chechen terrorist bombs; a spontaneous people's revolt against govt austerity measures; pilot error.

Equally, each could be a move in a grand geopolitical chessgame, now involving Bishops and Knights rather than Pawns.

I have little doubt that the world's intelligence agencies are interpreting all these events as primarily geopolitical and probably sinister.

Myra Bronstein
04-10-2010, 01:55 PM
Yes Jan, the symbolism is immense. The Russian press are making a big point of the likelihood of pilot error while all the western press are eulogizing the Prime Minister. It could well be that Putin has started an undeclared war as it seems. It may also be pilot error or it could be the west making a point or two, as usual, perhaps to the Ukraine. And they haven't had all their own way in Poland either. But I would be surprised if it was them.

Of course pilot error is the traditional favored scapegoat.

This is just a breathtaking episode and as noted terribly suspicious. A large part of the Polish gov't wiped out at once. Thanks for explaining the context and symbolism Jan.

Have the Russians ever officially taken responsibility for the (previous) massacre of Polish officers by Soviet secret police? Or was this already a controversial move on President Kaczynsk's part to go to Russia under these circumstances?

Myra Bronstein
04-10-2010, 02:01 PM
...
Have the Russians ever officially taken responsibility for the (previous) massacre of Polish officers by Soviet secret police? Or was this already a controversial move on President Kaczynsk's part to go to Russia under these circumstances?

Answer here:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/concoughlin/100033756/now-the-poles-have-another-reason-never-to-forget-the-katyn-massacre/

The timing of the plane crash that has killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski and his entourage could not come at a worse time for Russo-Polish relations. The president and his official party were on their way to attend a memorial service for the Katyn massacre when their plane crashed as it made its final approach to Smolensk airport.

The Katyn massacre, in which an estimated 20,000 Poles were murdered by the Russians on the personal orders of the then President of the Soviet Union, Joseph Stalin, has become an iconic issue for millions of Poles, who regard it as the most egregious example of Russia’s historic hatred for the Polish people. The issue is so sensitive that for decades Moscow flatly denied any involvement in the murder of thousands of Polish military officers, politicians and artists during the Second World War, insisting that the murders were instead carried out by the Nazis. It is only in recent years that Moscow officially admitted responsibility, and President Kaczynski and his party were on their way to attend a special event to commemorate the massacre.

Although tensions still remain between Moscow and Warsaw, the fact the Russian government has now admitted responsibility for the massacre was seen as an attempt by the Russians to repair relations with their Polish neighbours.

But while this tragic plane crash is unlikely to materially affect this diplomatic rapprochement, it will nevertheless have a lasting impact on Polish attitudes to the Katyn massacre. Instead of trying to consign the Katyn saga to the history books, whenever Katyn is mentioned in future they will be reminded of the plane crash that claimed the lives of their president and his entourage.

Myra Bronstein
04-10-2010, 02:02 PM
In theory, what would Russia's motive be if they were, again, responsible?

Myra Bronstein
04-10-2010, 02:05 PM
In theory, what would Russia's motive be if they were, again, responsible?

Again, IF it was not an accident, could this be a factor?

"Kaczynski, 60, pursued a strongly pro-U.S. line in foreign relations, in accordance with a cross-party consensus that has grown in Poland since the fall of communism. He was an enthusiastic backer of plans to site a U.S. missile defence facility in the country, the largest of the European Union's new eastern members."
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100410/lech_kaczynski_100410/20100410?hub=World

Peter Lemkin
04-10-2010, 02:11 PM
Yes Jan, the symbolism is immense. The Russian press are making a big point of the likelihood of pilot error while all the western press are eulogizing the Prime Minister. It could well be that Putin has started an undeclared war as it seems. It may also be pilot error or it could be the west making a point or two, as usual, perhaps to the Ukraine. And they haven't had all their own way in Poland either. But I would be surprised if it was them.

The Lubyanka suicide bombers.

The overthrow of the government of Krygyzstan.

The death of the Polish President and military top brass in Russia.

All these events may be as they seem on the surface: Chechen terrorist bombs; a spontaneous people's revolt against govt austerity measures; pilot error.

Equally, each could be a move in a grand geopolitical chessgame, now involving Bishops and Knights rather than Pawns.

I have little doubt that the world's intelligence agencies are interpreting all these events as primarily geopolitical and probably sinister.

Let us not forget what Putin's 'old job description' was!! I think you are likely correct Jan, this is the way 'wars' are often waged now - secretly - not 'declared' - that is now passe' [except for the U$A]...The symbolism is NOT lost on the Poles. Walesa had a memorable quote on this, I'll try to find. The plane had just been serviced, even if it was a bit old and not the best type of aircraft. I doubt however the Russians will do any better an investigation that the U$A did on Dallas or Sept. 11. Here in the Czech Republic, not far from Poland at all [one summer I lived in the Krkonose Mts. and every day went for a walk with my dog to Poland - on the other side of the highest peaks] it has had a very chilling effect. Yesterday, here in Prague, the Presidents of Russia and the U$A signed a Potemkin Village Treaty on Nuclear Arms. Today, this. Nice timing. It has just been announced that Putin, himself, will head the investigation into the crash.....:goodnight:

Magda Hassan
04-10-2010, 02:20 PM
In theory, what would Russia's motive be if they were, again, responsible?

Again, IF it was not an accident, could this be a factor?

"Kaczynski, 60, pursued a strongly pro-U.S. line in foreign relations, in accordance with a cross-party consensus that has grown in Poland since the fall of communism. He was an enthusiastic backer of plans to site a U.S. missile defence facility in the country, the largest of the European Union's new eastern members."
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100410/lech_kaczynski_100410/20100410?hub=World
The removal of the US missiles from Poland would be the obvious benefit to Russia.

Kaczynski was pro - US in foreign policy and Poland has 2,600 troops in Afghanistan but at home he was a Christian Democrat type and supported the Catholic church and social services and some controls and regulations on foreign investment etc.

Not sure if he knew or was involved in the CIA rendition secret prison in Poland.

Helen Reyes
04-10-2010, 02:58 PM
In theory, what would Russia's motive be if they were, again, responsible?

Again, IF it was not an accident, could this be a factor?

"Kaczynski, 60, pursued a strongly pro-U.S. line in foreign relations, in accordance with a cross-party consensus that has grown in Poland since the fall of communism. He was an enthusiastic backer of plans to site a U.S. missile defence facility in the country, the largest of the European Union's new eastern members."
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100410/lech_kaczynski_100410/20100410?hub=World

Remember, there are 2 Kaczynskis, the Evil Twins, one of whom was president and the other prime minister at the same time (or something like that). The PM would have policy-making power while the president would be more symbolic in role.


http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2005/09/25/poland_wideweb__430x286.jpg

What was it the PM Kaczynski told the homeless guy who ran up to him in public and enthusiastically said how he had voted for his party? "Get lost you old fuck" is a loose translation. So much for the Third Republic's "intellectual elite." Sikorski survived, at least.

They're not related to this guy (I suspect):


http://tumblelog.imgsrc.cc/photo/1280/228704350/1/tumblr_ksdcudokg01qz9yxe

As for motives in 3 possibly related Russian/Kyrgyz events, there's one country whose secretary of state is doing a crackerjack job of offending even old allies right now, in the sole interest of sowing malaise and discord worldwide, as far as I can tell. Not that the US could hope to pull off a people-power color revolution in Kyrgyzistan right now, but we might not be dealing with rational actors at this point.

Jan Klimkowski
04-10-2010, 03:24 PM
In theory, what would Russia's motive be if they were, again, responsible?

Myra - it's the geopolitical context.

The Lubyanka suicide bombs, as discussed elsewhere on DPF, were potentially western-inspired false flag attacks, framed within the context of "Islamic Black Widows", intended to tell Putin to join the "War on Terror" and play ball on Iran.

This was followed by the overthrow of the government of Krygyzstan. This revolt seems likely to lead to the US and NATO losing a logistically crucial air base and supply post, and as such may represent Putin's aggressive response to Lubyanka.

If the plane crash is sinister, its message would be crystal clear and symbolically resonant to Poles. Putin would be saying: the NKVD executed your military top brass at Katyn, now I - a "onetime" KBG officer - am wiping out your military high command in the same forest. So, Poles, forget about hosting American or NATO missile bases on your soil.

If this is a correct interpretation, then - in poker terms - Putin has seen the western/NATO bid and raised it.

Massively.

Ed Jewett
04-10-2010, 03:44 PM
Someone be sure to post if it is discovered that the accident investigation team left before the crash. :pcguru:

Charles Drago
04-10-2010, 04:21 PM
Putin has been designated by his president to run the official investigation into the crash.

There were two airports with in-alignment runways no more than a kilometer apart.

Helen Reyes
04-10-2010, 04:31 PM
I have no idea about Poland's presidential craft, but LOT doesn't have the best reputation for safety. Not the worst, either. Glad to see Charles is still above water :)

Jan Klimkowski
04-10-2010, 06:35 PM
Here's some Russian perspective on the first Katyn ceremony, attended by Tusk and Putin, earlier this week.

My emphasis in bold.


Poland: Putin's speech won't please everyone

23:4407/04/2010
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's speech was broadcast live by Polish television, radio and the Internet news sites. A translation into Polish appeared on the Internet soon after.

For the first time since Russian was dropped from the curriculum of Polish schools and universities in 1992, Russian speakers were worth their weight in gold in Poland. People listened intently to Putin's every word and scrutinized his every move: "Putin bowed his head to the Poles murdered at Katyn" "Putin said that the crimes of totalitarianism cannot be justified."

Will some Poles be dissatisfied with Putin's speech? Absolutely. You can't please everyone when it comes to Katyn. It is important to understand that for the Poles, Katyn is not just a symbol of Stalin's crimes. In his speech today, Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk accurately called the old Soviet version blaming the Germans for the murder of the Polish officers a "cornerstone" myth of the Polish People's Republic (PPR). Poles only dared whisper their doubts about the official version in the PPR, and the collapse of this myth in 1989-1990 became a symbol of Polish liberation from totalitarianism. If the official version was based on a lie, then the whole system was built on a lie and must be dismantled.

Regrettably, new myths are cropping up in today's Poland. The biggest myth has to do with "the threat from the East." The Kaczynski brothers - the president and former prime minister - have spoken freely about this danger, and until recently, Poland was under their sway.

One of the brothers, Lech, is still the president. In the last few weeks, he openly expressed his jealousy of Prime Minister Donald Tusk, who was invited by Putin to visit Katyn. Until this year, memorial ceremonies at the graves of the Polish officers at Katyn were a strictly Polish affair. Polish presidents and ministers visited the site but unofficially. These were almost family events with the officers' relatives in attendance.

This is the first ceremony attended by Russian leaders but not the Polish president. Kaczynski's stated intention to visit Katyn three days later with the relatives of the dead and a propaganda landing party is a political gesture motivated more by discontent and envy than respect for the memory of the victims.

Kaczynski got the hint, and he will have to bear responsibility for his speech at a square in Tbilisi next to the war criminal Mikheil Saakashvili several days after the attack on Tskhinval - a speech filled with irresponsible anti-Russian rhetoric. Kaczynski may only be judged by history for his actions, but one thing is certain: he will not be remembered as a political leader who led Polish-Russian relations out of this deadlock. Tusk and Putin have that chance.

The second myth, which will take a long time to dispel, is the "ethnic" interpretation" of Katyn, which depicts this tragedy as an anti-Polish act of the entire Russian nation (as if Bashto Kobulov, a member of the troika that condemned the officers to death, and the Politburo members Dzhugashvili, Kaganovich and Beria, who signed a relevant resolution, were Russians). In his speech today, Putin said, "Stalinist repression swept people away regardless of their ethnic origin, convictions or religious beliefs. Whole social classes became victims - Cossacks, clergymen, ordinary peasants, professors, officers, some of whom served in the Tsarist army and then came to serve the Soviet state but were still not spared."

This passage from Putin's speech will no doubt be met with criticism in Poland. Lech Kaczynski keeps repeating that the officers in Katyn were shot because they were POLISH officers. But the documents show that in the eyes of the Politburo members and Stalin himself the victims of Katyn were considered Soviet citizens. At the time of the massacre in the spring of 1940, Poland did not exist as a state. One chunk of pre-war Poland belonged to Nazi Germany, while the other belonged to the U.S.S.R. The more than 21,000 Polish officers who found themselves at Stalin's mercy shared the fate of millions of Soviet citizens.

It is hard to move past the "ethnic interpretation" of Katyn. It is a much easier to use it as a political trump card, like the Kaczynski brothers are doing. Many Russian politicians are also tempted to feed into this interpretation. But they must resist this temptation, for a political career based on this lie will collapse just like the PPR.

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20100407/1584....

For Poles, Katyn is absolutely an ethnic crime. It is the direct consequence of the Nazi-Soviet Pact, under which Germany invaded western Poland and engaged, and quickly destroyed, the Polish army. Meanwhile, the NKVD and Red Army invaded eastern Poland, with lists of the "intelligentsia", including army officers, and their families to be deported to Siberia.

In the 1930s, Poland was seen by both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia as the strongest Slav state. It therefore had to be destroyed.

There were no Nazi SS Polish divisions. Polish divisions in the Red Army were only created after almost the entire Polish officer corps had been murdered at Katyn and other execution sites. Polish military units were a threat to both the Nazis and the Soviets, and thus were either not created, or were strictly controlled - in the case of the Red Army - by Soviet officers.

Katyn was an ethnic crime. It was part of the attempt to destroy the Polish intelligentsia. To cut off the head and create a subservient, leaderless, runt.

In the context of the plane crash, it appears that this Polish military and presidential pilgrimage to Katyn, with relatives of the dead, was probably unwelcome to Putin. This increases the possibility of foul play.

Carsten Wiethoff
04-10-2010, 07:04 PM
There were two airports with in-alignment runways no more than a kilometer apart.
The polish plane attempted to land four times on the northern airport, which is Smolensk airbase.
From Wikipedia:
Smolensk Military (Russian ??????? ???????? "????????-????????", military aerodrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerodrome) Smolensk-North) is an air base in Smolensk Oblast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_Oblast), Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) located 4 km north of Smolensk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk). It is a small mixed-use airfield with a remote revetment area with 8 pads and a Yakovlev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev) factory at the southeast side of the airfield. It has 28 based Ilyushin Il-76 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76) aircraft.
During the Cold War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War) it was home to the 401 IAP (401st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23)P aircraft, which disbanded around 1990 with its MiG-23Ps assigned to 412 IAP at Dombarovsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dombarovsky). It has also been home to 871 IAP (871st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23) and Su-27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27) aircraft in 1994, then MiG-29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29) aircraft in 2003. Airlift services are provided by 103 Gv VTAP (103rd Guards Military Air Transport Regiment) flying Ilyushin Il-76 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76) jets.

The crew was warned of bad weather conditions (dense fog), but tried to land nonetheless, crashing at the fourth attempt after aborting three times. The airport does not have an instrument landing system (ILS).

Myra Bronstein
04-10-2010, 07:33 PM
There were two airports with in-alignment runways no more than a kilometer apart.
The polish plane attempted to land four times on the northern airport, which is Smolensk airbase.
From Wikipedia:
Smolensk Military (Russian ??????? ???????? "????????-????????", military aerodrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerodrome) Smolensk-North) is an air base in Smolensk Oblast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_Oblast), Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) located 4 km north of Smolensk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk). It is a small mixed-use airfield with a remote revetment area with 8 pads and a Yakovlev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev) factory at the southeast side of the airfield. It has 28 based Ilyushin Il-76 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76) aircraft.
During the Cold War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War) it was home to the 401 IAP (401st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23)P aircraft, which disbanded around 1990 with its MiG-23Ps assigned to 412 IAP at Dombarovsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dombarovsky). It has also been home to 871 IAP (871st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23) and Su-27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27) aircraft in 1994, then MiG-29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29) aircraft in 2003. Airlift services are provided by 103 Gv VTAP (103rd Guards Military Air Transport Regiment) flying Ilyushin Il-76 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76) jets.

The crew was warned of bad weather conditions (dense fog), but tried to land nonetheless, crashing at the fourth attempt after aborting three times. The airport does not have an instrument landing system (ILS).

Kinda sounds like the JFK Jr. official explanation: foggy weather, bad visibility, pilot error/inexperience... 'Cept that the weather and visibility at Martha's Vineyard was fine that day. Wonder what the weather was actually like in western Russia.

Myra Bronstein
04-10-2010, 07:34 PM
In theory, what would Russia's motive be if they were, again, responsible?

Myra - it's the geopolitical context.
...

Thanks Jan. The geopolitical context is exactly what I lacked and needed.

Myra Bronstein
04-10-2010, 07:47 PM
Lots of witnesses to the crash, one interviewed here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/10/poland-plane-crash-eyewit_n_532924.html

Nothing very revealing: "I had been here 15 minutes when I saw the plane flying low, and I saw something serious was going on. It was cutting, cutting trees. Then over there, there was a big noise. Boom! Like a bomb."

Though I wondered how he could see if the fog was so thick.

Much more detail from these witnesses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OytAQFCkFs&feature=player_embedded

One said the visibility was "no more than 50 meters."

Consistent accounts that the plane's wings brushed tree tops and the plane started to come apart.

Phil Dragoo
04-10-2010, 08:09 PM
Above, it is suggested, "The removal of the US missiles from Poland would be the obvious benefit to Russia."

Now this. It would appear that once again Poland is betrayed from two sides.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2ba6hw.jpg

Peter Lemkin
04-11-2010, 07:34 AM
The BBC just had a discussion of the incident in which several experts even touched upon the idea that many Poles will assume that there may have been foul play on the part of the Russians in this [not an accident, a conspiracy]......but after thrashing it out, the BBC lead concluded something to the effect that some people will always resort to 'conspiracy theories', but OBVIOUSLY Putin and Russian could not have had ANY hand in such a horrible crime. (more than hinting at the lack of clear thinking to even 'go there') Is the BBC so conservative, doing their job, or just blind to not entertain the possibility? Their guests certainly did! :alberteinstein:

Myra Bronstein
04-11-2010, 08:29 AM
Just thought this was interesting amateur commentary from an individual who is candid about the fact that he is not very knowledgeable about Polish/Russian history. He opines that the Russians did not want President Kaczynski to give a (no doubt embarrassing) speech in Russia. He closes by calling it the Polish equivalent of the JFK assassination:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/abraham/detail??blogid=95&entry_id=61042

Though it wasn't an inside job like the JFK assassination.

Another comment at the same link: "President Lech Kaczynski did not have a great relationship with Russia. Reportedly President Kaczynski was attending the controversial event against the unofficial wishes of the Kremlin."

David Guyatt
04-11-2010, 08:29 AM
Is the BBC so conservative, doing their job, or just blind to not entertain the possibility?:alberteinstein:

Just the MSM being the MSM. All conspiracies must be a theory.

Ordinarily, if this were the work of, say, the Brits or Uncle, there would already be a wide disinformation campaign in progress to muddy the waters. This doesn't seem to be the case here?

Jan Klimkowski
04-11-2010, 08:35 AM
Peter - yes. MSM is saying "if you even consider foul play, then you're a conspiracy theorist and a fantasist", and beyond the pale.

Cue the offering below in The Observer from Neil Acherson, which concludes: "Putin, who uneasily visited Katyn with the Polish prime minister on Wednesday, dislikes Polish aspirations but does not murder foreign heads of state."

Ascherson is instructing us to obey authorized and officially sanctioned history.

The message from TPTB is that politicians are decent folk who settle disputes over cups of tea and four course dinners in swanky country estates. They don't murder other people. Heaven forbid! :argh:

Indeed, Ascherson's piece is borderline racist with its description of Polish thinking as being guided by "mystical coincidence".

Katyn was a Soviet war crime.

Sikorski was almost certainly assassinated in an act of pure realpolitick.

There's nothing mystical about that. Just blood, tears and murder.

Ascherson's nonsense is below:


Phantoms that haunt the people return

Poles may may feel that their county has not escaped the many nightmares of their past, and is trapped in a cycle of tragedy

By Neil Ascherson

The air crash at Smolensk is more than a tragedy of lives lost, And it is more than a national disaster: the death of a president with his wife and all his retinue. It is also a test of nerve, for all Poles the world over. They are asking themselves: have we truly escaped from the nightmares of Poland's past? Or have the demons returned to surround us once again, those giant bloodstained phantoms who came out of the forest to destroy every Polish generation for two centuries?

For 20 years, since the fall of communism, Poland has lived at peace with its neighbours and the Poles have enjoyed a rising prosperity. At last Poland was becoming the "normal country" it never was before, in the times when its fate was to be invaded by Russian and German armies, and its hope lay in suicidally brave but vain uprisings. That old Poland lived in cycles, a hermetic history of repression, betrayal, resistance and rebellion. Everyone knew a list of dates and places – tragedies, resurrections, noble "Polish January" or piteous "Polish September" – which meant nothing to a foreigner.

So the joy of normality was that all those dates and all their haunting code could at last be forgotten.

But now this. On the way to the mass grave in Katyn forest, where Stalin murdered the military and civil elite of Poland in April 1940, the president of a free Poland dies as his Russian plane crashes into the trees a few miles from Katyn itself. He and his wife and the military, religious and political leaders who came with them intended to honour the Polish dead who lie in that piece of Russian earth. Now they have joined those dead men and become part of that tragedy, precisely 70 years on.

A people whose collective memory has relied so much on mystical coincidence, the sense of a providence sometimes loving but often malign, will be tempted for a moment to think that Katyn will never be over, that Lech Kaczynski and his companions are not just part of the tragedy but part of the crime.

Millions of Poles, hearing this news, will have caught themselves thinking "Gibraltar!" – then made themselves suppress the thought. On 4 July 1943, General Wladyslaw Sikorski, head of the free Polish government in exile, was killed when his plane crashed at Gibraltar. The British said it was an accident. Many Poles, then and now, didn't and don't believe them.

They point out that the crash took place only three months after the Germans discovered the mass graves at Katyn; when Sikorski accused the Soviet Union of the crime, Stalin endangered the whole anti-Hitler alliance by breaking off relations with free Poland. Wasn't it obvious that the British and the Soviets had a common interest in getting rid of Sikorski? And doesn't Vladimir Putin hate and fear outspoken Polish leaders as much as Tsar Nicholas or Stalin had done? And wasn't that what the ex-president, Lech Walesa, meant when he exclaimed yesterday that "this is the second Katyn tragedy; the first time, they tried to cut our head off and now again the elite of our country has perished"?

But it's paranoid nonsense which any Pole can be excused for entertaining for an awful moment – but which then blows away in the fresh air. Smolensk is not Gibraltar. The Russian-built plane was the president's own, not a cunning loan from Moscow. Putin, who uneasily visited Katyn with the Polish prime minister on Wednesday, dislikes Polish aspirations but does not murder foreign heads of state.

Poland today is not cursed by destiny but by a brutal share of bad luck. This weekend it proved it was "a normal country" as the constitutional provisions for electing a new president went smoothly into action.

I knew and liked some of the people who died at Smolensk yesterday. They would not have denied that phantoms still lurk in the forest of Polish imaginations. But they wanted them to stay hidden among the trees.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/11/poland-crash-analysis-ascherson-kaczynski

Myra Bronstein
04-11-2010, 08:48 AM
Here's something heartwarming, Putin leaving blood red (like in Dallas) flowers at the site of the crash.

http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=putin+flowers

Paul Rigby
04-11-2010, 09:27 AM
http://governmentagainstthepeople.wordpress.com/2010/04/10/polands-leaders-move-to-weaken-currency-then-die-in-plane-crash/


Poland’s Leaders Move to Weaken Currency, Then Die in Plane Crash

April 10, 2010 by flatcap

There’s no telling if the two events are connected, but their timing is mighty interesting.

The Polish government and the National Bank of Poland, in a “rare moment of unity,” agree to weaken Poland’s currency, the zloty, in an act that would benefit Poland’s exporters at the expense of Poland’s trading partners—that is, the European Union, among others. Then, the next day, Poland’s president and the president of its national bank die in a plane crash.

From the Wall Street Journal in an item dated April 9, 2010:

In one of those rare moments of unity, the National Bank of Poland and the Polish government agreed on the need to weaken the Polish zloty, which over recent weeks has rebounded close to its pre-crisis strength. The currency’s strength is now seen a possible threat to economic recovery. After several verbal interventions over the past few days, the central bank intervened with real money Friday, for the first time in more than a decade.

The bank followed through on its Thursday warnings that it is “technologically and psychologically” prepared to enter the currency market to prevent “excessive strengthening of the zloty.” Government officials also said earlier this week that the “strong zloty” is damaging growth and, after Friday’s intervention, said they fully back the central bank’s move.

In moving to weaken the zloty, Poland’s leadership was placing the interests of the people of Poland ahead of the interests of the European collective known as the European Union.

Then, the next day, the president of Poland dies in a plane crash along with numerous other top leaders, including the president of the National Bank. From the Mail Online:

Polish president Lech Kaczynski and his wife Maria have been killed after their plane crashed on approach to Smolensk airport in western Russia.

Russian news agencies reported at least 87 people died in the crash near Smolensk airport in western Russia, citing the Russian Emergencies Ministry. They reported 132 people were aboard the Tupolev Tu-154.

The Army chief of staff, Gen. Franciszek Gagor, National Bank President Slawomir Skrzypek and Deputy Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer were on the passenger list.

Poland has been dragging its feet in adopting the euro and joining the European Union, having pushed back its target date for doing so until 2015. Here in the U.S., we might say that Poland is not a “team player.” In the New World Order, bad things tend to happen to leaders who aren’t team players.

Jan Klimkowski
04-11-2010, 09:45 AM
The devalution of the zloty can also be viewed in the context of the economic choices outlined in Prof Hudson's piece here:

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3602

Eg:


There is growing recognition that the post-Soviet economies were structured from the start to benefit foreign interests, not local economies. For example, Latvian labor is taxed at over 50 per cent (labor, employer, and social tax) – so high as to make it noncompetitive, while property taxes are less than 1 per cent, providing an incentive toward rampant speculation. This skewed tax philosophy made the “Baltic Tigers” and central Europe prime loan markets for Swedish and Austrian banks, but their labor could not find well-paying work at home. Nothing like this (or their abysmal workplace protection laws) is found in the Western European, North American or Asian economies.

It seems unreasonable and unrealistic to expect that large sectors of the New European population can be made subject to salary garnishment throughout their lives, reducing them to a lifetime of debt peonage. Future relations between Old and New Europe will depend on the Eurozone’s willingness to re-design the post-Soviet economies on more solvent lines – with more productive credit and a less rentier-biased tax system that promotes employment rather than asset-price inflation that drives labor to emigrate. In addition to currency realignments to deal with unaffordable debt, the indicated line of solution for these countries is a major shift of taxes off labor onto land, making them more like Western Europe. There is no just alternative. Otherwise, the age-old conflict-of-interest between creditors and debtors threatens to split Europe into opposing political camps, with Iceland the dress rehearsal.

Until this debt problem is resolved – and the only way to resolve it is to negotiate a debt write-off – European expansion (the absorption of New Europe into Old Europe) seems over. But the transition to this future solution will not be easy. Financial interests still wield dominant power over the EU, and will resist the inevitable. Gordon Brown already has shown his colors in his threats against Iceland to illegally and improperly use the IMF as a collection agent for debts that Iceland doesn’t legally owe, and to blackball Icelandic membership in the EU.

Confronted with Brown’s bullying – and that of Britain’s Dutch poodles – 97 per cent of Icelandic voters opposed the debt settlement that Britain and the Netherlands sought to force down the throat of Allthing members last month. This high a vote has not been seen in the world since the old Stalinist era.

David Guyatt
04-11-2010, 09:54 AM
There were two airports with in-alignment runways no more than a kilometer apart.
The polish plane attempted to land four times on the northern airport, which is Smolensk airbase.
From Wikipedia:
Smolensk Military (Russian ??????? ???????? "????????-????????", military aerodrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerodrome) Smolensk-North) is an air base in Smolensk Oblast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk_Oblast), Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) located 4 km north of Smolensk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smolensk). It is a small mixed-use airfield with a remote revetment area with 8 pads and a Yakovlev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev) factory at the southeast side of the airfield. It has 28 based Ilyushin Il-76 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76) aircraft.
During the Cold War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_War) it was home to the 401 IAP (401st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23)P aircraft, which disbanded around 1990 with its MiG-23Ps assigned to 412 IAP at Dombarovsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dombarovsky). It has also been home to 871 IAP (871st Interceptor Aviation Regiment) flying MiG-23 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-23) and Su-27 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-27) aircraft in 1994, then MiG-29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan_MiG-29) aircraft in 2003. Airlift services are provided by 103 Gv VTAP (103rd Guards Military Air Transport Regiment) flying Ilyushin Il-76 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-76) jets.

The crew was warned of bad weather conditions (dense fog), but tried to land nonetheless, crashing at the fourth attempt after aborting three times. The airport does not have an instrument landing system (ILS).

If the report that the aircraft attempted to land four times before crashing, then this strikes me that it was an accident rather than foul play. In the latter case nothing would have been left to chance - whereas chance seemed to play quite a large role in this crash?

Jan Klimkowski
04-11-2010, 09:56 AM
DPF members - the DPF Mods decided to merge the two threads about the Polish air crash to preserve the information and arguments in one thread.

On merging, the software kept David Guyatt's thread title as opposed to Peter Lemkin's. No judgement on either thread was intended in this.

Jan Klimkowski
04-11-2010, 09:59 AM
If the report that the aircraft attempted to land four times before crashing, then this strikes me that it was an accident rather than foul play. In the latter case nothing would have been left to chance - whereas chance seemed to play quite a large role in this crash?

We have issues of veracity of information.

I haven't seen any confirmation from Polish sources about number of attempts at landing or weather etc.

In terms of scenarios, if the plane was deliberately casued to malfunction - eg by some electronic interference with its controls - then the number of attempts that the highly experienced Polish military pilot made to land could be evidence that he was not in full control of his plane.

David Guyatt
04-11-2010, 09:59 AM
DPF members - the DPF Mods decided to merge the two threads about the Polish air crash to preserve the information and arguments in one thread.

On merging, the software kept David Guyatt's thread title as opposed to Peter Lemkin's. No judgement on either thread was intended in this.

No probs from me. I was merely being a postal service for my sis who picked this item up and asked me to post it because of the difficulty she has keyboarding with her three computer thumbs per hand...

Carsten Wiethoff
04-11-2010, 05:59 PM
According to http://www.wunderground.com/history/station/26781/2010/4/10/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA&MR=1
the weather at the time of the attempted landing (short before 10 am CORRECTION: 10:56 local time) in Smolensk was:
Temp: 1 deg. C, Dewpoint 1 deg. C, Humidity 98%, QNH 1026 hPa, Visibility 0.5km, Wind from SE with 10.8 km/h, dense fog.

So the weather was really bad for a landing without ILS.

The final position of the plane is depicted here:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IEJ3-_kC6JI/S8CLgRjPpDI/AAAAAAAAioU/grwcsGZmiTI/s400/paf_t154_101_smolensk_100410_map.jpg

Carsten Wiethoff
04-11-2010, 06:14 PM
From http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/breaking-news/technical-fault-ruled-out-in-polish-plane-crash/story-e6frf7jx-1225852492394

Technical fault ruled out in Polish plane crash



From: AFP
April 11, 2010 11:17PM




THERE was no technical problem with the plane that crashed in Russia and killed Polish President Lech Kaczynski, the chief Russian investigator of the crash said.

"The recordings that we have confirm that there were no technical problems with the plane," chief investigator Alexander Bastrykin said during a meeting with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin at the site of the crash.
Mr Bastrykin, Russia's top investigator, and more than 40 senior specialists have been working at the site in west Russia, where a plane carrying Kaczynski and scores of other top officials crashed on Saturday while trying to land.
Fragments of the fuselage, air traffic control recordings and the plane's "black boxes" were being studied in the probe into the causes of the crash, Russia's investigative committee said in a statement.

Jan Klimkowski
04-11-2010, 06:32 PM
"The recordings that we have confirm that there were no technical problems with the plane," chief investigator Alexander Bastrykin said during a meeting with Prime Minister Vladimir Putin at the site of the crash.


More Russian sources, with Putin controlling the investigation and the information.

There were senior Polish intelligence figures on the plane - all now dead, of course.

Polish intelligence will be investigating, as far as it can on Russian soil. However, if evidence of foul play is found, I don't expect it to be made public immediately.

If this was a deliberate Russian act, then assassinating the Polish President and the miitary high command amounts to a declaration of war.

However, it is now abundantly clear that the first memorial service, involving Putin and Tusk, was carefully stage-managed to frame Katyn as a "crime of totalitarianism".

Of course Katyn was something different.

Katyn was an ethnic crime committed by the NKVD and Stalin.

Kaczynski's delegation was not welcome to Putin's regime. And now they're all dead.

In the same forest where the NKVD slaughtered around twenty thousand Polish prisoners.

Myra Bronstein
04-11-2010, 07:24 PM
According to http://www.wunderground.com/history/station/26781/2010/4/10/DailyHistory.html?req_city=NA&req_state=NA&req_statename=NA&MR=1
the weather at the time of the attempted landing (short before 10 am local time) in Smolensk was:
Temp: 1 deg. C, Dewpoint 1 deg. C, Humidity 98%, QNH 1026 hPa, Visibility 0.5km, Wind from SE with 10.8 km/h, dense fog.

So the weather was really bad for a landing without ILS.

The final position of the plane is depicted here:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IEJ3-_kC6JI/S8CLgRjPpDI/AAAAAAAAioU/grwcsGZmiTI/s400/paf_t154_101_smolensk_100410_map.jpg

Thanks Carsten, that's actually kinda good to know.

According to reports (http://www.wlos.com/template/inews_wire/wires.international/3f9e7efc-www.wlos.com.shtml) "Russian dispatchers had asked the plane's Polish crew members to divert from the military airport where they were trying to land."

I would think/hope that a recording would exist of that exchange. If so it seems like Russia would want to release the recording tout de suite. Does anyone know if this has been done?

Helen Reyes
04-11-2010, 07:28 PM
I have to agree that the event couldn't be designed better to play on Polish martyrology, history and public opinion, but I can't see who benefits. Katyn, Sikorski all over again. I've been reading lately that for the first time Polish history (and the baltic states) have entered the debate in the run-up to British elections. Does Cameron's camp take a "hard line" on Putin's Russia re: Litvinenko and all that? I haven't been able to follow it much, but it's an interesting coincidence that Poland is in the British news a lot lately, at least from what I hear.

Is there any interest in reminding Poles of Russian treachery right now? Any pressing need to drive a wedge somewhere? I'd prefer to think the Anglo-American oligarchy was behind it, rather than Putin, but I don't see any interest for either to do this right now.

The weather in the extreme west of Russia was bad the few days before the accident/event, some hard rains, but it seems it didn't rain as much as in Kyrgyzistan.

Lithuanian newspapers are reporting the crash was down to pilot error, most likely. There is no sentiment, however, that "the Russians would never do that, it's barbarous!" as Mssr. Ascherson seemed to say in Jan's repost.

Jan Klimkowski
04-11-2010, 08:35 PM
I have to agree that the event couldn't be designed better to play on Polish martyrology, history and public opinion, but I can't see who benefits. Katyn, Sikorski all over again.


Let me start by saying that I have, and had, little time for the Kaczynski twins and much of their politics.

However, C20th Polish history and geography is C20th Polish history and geography.

The Nazi-Soviet Pact.

Katyn.

The assassination of Sikorski.

The Warsaw Uprising.

Yalta.

Etc.

As a matter of European geography, the Poles are the most homogenous ethnic group on the autobahn leading from Berlin to Moscow, and this has certain, perhaps inevitable, consequences.

In addition, the geopolitical relationship between Russia and Germany is at least as important for continental Europe as that between Germany and France.

If this was not an accident, pilot error, then cui bono? is always a good question. But not the only one.

Public executions of prominent political figures typically have a symbolic dimension. The magickal potency of the act, pulsing through the aether of the collective unconscious, has a life and resonance of its own.

At the geopolitical level, when we are considering potential perfidy of this magnitude, Charles' hypothesis should be very much in the foreground:



George Michael wrote of a group of American and Soviet military, political, and intelligence assets "whose masters were above Cold War differences."

Those "masters" are the Sponsors.

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419

Charles Drago
04-11-2010, 08:56 PM
"Public executions of prominent political figures typically have a symbolic dimension. The magickal potency of the act, pulsing through the aether of the collective unconscious, has a life and resonance of its own."

Jan,

One cannot overvalue your insight on this matter.

The murder of JFK was, at its core, a ritualistic act.

Peter Lemkin
04-12-2010, 07:11 AM
I just waiting for the first poles [no pun intended] to come out to see what % of Poles suspect the Russians were repeating the Katyn murder all over again. I have heard rather a few say so - or so speculate as possible - on the radio I've been listening to. What was that old 'saw' about 'those who do not learn the lessons of history are bound to repeat them...?' The investigation is to be done by the Russians. As far as I've heard the Poles asked to also have investigators involved, but so far that has been politely declined - except for recovery of the wreckage and bodies. The 'black boxes' [which are really red] are in Putin's hands, as are the investigators and the writing of the report as to what happened and why.

Phil Dragoo
04-12-2010, 09:34 AM
I have not confirmed reports that the plane was overhauled in Russia in December.

It is said that assuming power will be Prime Minister Tusk who gets on well with Putin.

We are to be comforted that Vladimir Putin will assume responsibility for the investigation.

There is an unconfirmed report of failure of cell phones aboard the plane before the final approach.

In my view Putin has been entirely consistent throughout his tenure of power.

Kursk was a disaster for him; Bulava has not been reliable. Now he has achieved a technical success, the decapitation of the Polish regime.

Frank Davis filled the young Obama with tales of the glorious Red Army, and the now-grown had scrapped the missile shield and granted Putin another concession.

“Western thinking has become conservative:
the world situation should stay as it is at any cost;
there should be no changes. ....
The communist regime in the East could stand and grow due to the enthusiastic support from an enormous number of Western intellectuals who felt a kinship and refused to see communism's crimes. And when they no longer could do so, they tried to justify them. In our Eastern countries, communism has suffered a complete ideological defeat; it is zero and less than zero. But Western intellectuals still look at it with interest and with empathy, and this is precisely what makes it so immensely difficult for the West to withstand the East.”
[Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn at the Commencement, 8 June 1978, Harvard University]

Cass Sunstein will be along shortly to assure us there was no conspiracy.

To those who say Putin would not be so stupid as to commit such an act on Russian soil, is polonium naturally occurring in London restaurants.

Jan Klimkowski
04-12-2010, 06:06 PM
My emphasis in bold at bottom of article:


'They were wiped out. It's our Katyn trauma all over again'

Poland struggles to come to terms with the loss of its president and dozens of senior officials in a plane crash near Smolensk airport

Waclaw Oszajca was struggling to come to terms with the full scale of his country's worst postwar tragedy. But as he clicked through portraits of the 96 victims of the Smolensk air crash on a news website a very personal story unfolded.

The voice of the 53-year old Jesuit priest and one of Poland's most respected theologians fell to a whisper as he pointed out the faces of friends, including a priest, a military chaplain, government aides and a historian.

"These were some of our best," said Oszajca, who yesterday took a train from his home in Lublin to Warsaw, to pay tribute to them on national radio. "They were wiped out in seconds. Young, old, women, men, leftwing, rightwing. It's our Katyn trauma all over again," he said.

The 1940 Soviet massacre of Poland's officer corps in the forests of Katyn remains one of the most harrowing events in 20th-century Polish history. In the bitterest of ironies the ill-fated delegation had been travelling to Katyn to commemorate the 70th anniversary of the massacre when its plane crashed in Smolensk, close to where the atrocities took place.

Yesterday's newspapers were already calling the tragedy the "second Katyn". Special editions were dominated by pictures of the late president, Lech Kaczynski, and his economist wife Maria.

(snip)

But while many were consumed with thoughts of what had been lost, others were seeking to lay blame. The fact that the Russian-made Tupolev 154 crashed in woods close to the site of the massacres has only helped to fuel conspiracy theories about the causes of the crash.

Russian and Polish investigators have recovered the flight-data recorders and are investigating the possibility that the plane's pilots ignored warnings that they were approaching Smolensk too low in thick fog.

But many Poles are already sceptical about the official version of events.

Arkadiusz Mularczyk, an MP for the Kaczynski's Law and Justice party, was one of several politicians who failed to get a seat on the plane. He travelled to Smolensk by train instead.

"It feels like God gave me another chance to live," he said. But he had unanswered questions. "I was already in the Katyn forest when the plane crashed, and the visibility was perfect, the sun was shining. So why didn't they let them land?" he asked.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/11/poland-president-plane-crash-kaczynski

Carsten Wiethoff
04-12-2010, 07:30 PM
"I was already in the Katyn forest when the plane crashed, and the visibility was perfect, the sun was shining. So why didn't they let them land?" he asked.


Difficult to decide. Katyn forest is 20-25km from the airport, that might be a factor.
On the videos of the crash scene it sure looks foggy to me.
For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzDCK6nPfJ4
But it is difficult to estimate visibility on the video.

Peter Lemkin
04-13-2010, 06:54 AM
"I was already in the Katyn forest when the plane crashed, and the visibility was perfect, the sun was shining. So why didn't they let them land?" he asked.


Difficult to decide. Katyn forest is 20-25km from the airport, that might be a factor.
On the videos of the crash scene it sure looks foggy to me.
For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzDCK6nPfJ4
But it is difficult to estimate visibility on the video.

Commercial planes land in fog and rain all the time! Did the airport have a radio beacon and did the plane have the equipment to to follow it? More to the point, did someone sabotage the plane...a very easy thing to do these days! And all too often used....the danger on flights IMO is greater from the intelligence goons than from real 'terrorists' intent on taking a plane down. The intelligence goons ARE the biggest and most organized terrorists, but I digress......

Carsten Wiethoff
04-13-2010, 07:36 AM
Commercial planes land in fog and rain all the time! Did the airport have a radio beacon and did the plane have the equipment to to follow it? More to the point, did someone sabotage the plane...a very easy thing to do these days! And all too often used....the danger on flights IMO is greater from the intelligence goons than from real 'terrorists' intent on taking a plane down. The intelligence goons ARE the biggest and most organized terrorists, but I digress......
There is an NDB at the airport. The minimum visibility for an NDB approach at Smolensk is 1000m. An NDB approach in the conditions reported would be dangerous and illegal. There may be PAR (precision approach radar), but a PAR approach means that the incoming plane is assisted by the ATC who has the radar view and has to talk back its altitude to the controller. It is not clear that this was the procedure used, it seems that at some point in the approach the plane stopped communicating with ATC.
The plane was equipped with ILS, but there is not an ILS (which is what would be used at most civilian airports in these conditions) nor a VOR at the airport.
Reference : http://avherald.com/h?article=429ec5fa&opt=0

So technically the conditions for landing were marginal at best, more likely illegal. But this, of course, tells us not, if there was foul play.
I can see means and opportunity, given the plane was overhauled in Russia in December. I even can get an idea of a motive, reading Jan's posts. This gives us cause for suspicion, and maybe a suspect, but that is still far from proof of foul play.

Both alternatives are possible, and even when the final report will be issued (and I don't doubt it will claim pilot error) both alternatives remain possible, because reports can be manipulated.
In the end it will be a question of likelihood and which evidence can be trusted.

Carsten Wiethoff
04-13-2010, 12:45 PM
http://bi.gazeta.pl/im/3/7765/m7765863.jpg

Helen Reyes
04-13-2010, 09:00 PM
News here is saying the dispatcher at Smolensk said the plane only made one, unsuccessful, approach and did not have permission to land.

Here's a rough translation fwiw, no attribution for now except Komsomolskaya Pravda, sorry for the spelling errors:



Dispatchers say Polish president's plane tried to land without permission

The pilot of Polish president Lech Kaczynski's plane only tried once to land without permission of the North Airport dispatchers.

"The crew began to land without permission. They were preparing to land without permission. There was nothing the director could do," a dispatcher told Komsomolskaya Pravda who was handling the landing of the Polish president's plane.

Anatoli Muravyov said the director of the dispatchers' group gave instructions to the pilot to fly a secondary circle [holding pattern?] three times.

"The crew didn't listen to him. Dispatchers warned them visibility was poor and they needed to prepare to fly to the secondary airport," Muravyov said.

He added that the airplane crew, ignoring existing standards, did not provide information about their situation or their manoeuvres. Muravyav thought the reason for the radio silence was a language barrier.

"The director in charge of flights in the group even said, 'Understanding between us and the crew was fifty-fifty. The dispatcher spoke with the pilot in Russian, whom others helped, speaking English words. And it was hard to understand whether the pilot understood what was being said to him. The language barrier hindered understanding. I think this could have resulted in the flight's end. Well, of course also, the circumstances of the landing," the dispatcher said.

He thought that these circumstances included "weather conditions, a possible mistake by the crew, loss of altitude control and the pilot's aspiration to land the plane namely then and there.

"It seems to me that his goal was caused by the fact that there were such high-ranking people on the plane. It was namely this goal which killed our crews [?] and the people themselves. There was a circumstance when Kaczynski fired a crew for pointing an airplane at a secondary airport," Muravyov said.

"WE landed two more craft before the president's plane. The first to land was a YaK-40, it landed successfully, without incident. The second to land was an Il-76, but the runway was not sufficiently visible, and the crew decided to fly to the secondary airport. I asked Moscow at which airport he was to land. The airplane landed successfully at Vnukov," the dispatcher said.

Meanwhile the Polish press reported that pilot Arkadiusz Protasiuk, the pilot of the Tu-154 which crashed in Smolensk April 10, spoke Russian well and he was well acquainted with the North Airport in Smolensk where he tried to land the Polish president's plane.

This was reported on the website of Gazeta Wyborcza based on information from the pilot's colleagues and friends.

Gazeta Wyborcza noted that this report was a reply to the report from the Smolensk dispatcher published in some Russian media that the pilot didn't understand Russian.

Colonel Bartosz Stroinski, a Tu-154 pilot, rejected the report that captain Protasiuk did not know Russian well enough.

The colonel said he had flown together with late pilot to Smolensk three days before the catastrophe when Polish prime minister flew there.

"Arek knew Russian perfectly. He corresponded perfectly in Polish, Russian and English. There was nothing of note when we flew there April 7," Stroinski told reporters.

Assistant head of the battalion Grzegorz Kulakowski noted Protasiuk met all the requirements to fly to Smolensk with the Polish president on April 10.

"This airport was familiar to captain Protasiuk, and he was prepared for this flight. APril 7 he performed the flight with the honorable prime minister," Kulakowski said.

...

Jan Klimkowski
04-13-2010, 09:18 PM
I'm being bombarded by MSM reports of, to paraphrase, a historic reconciliation between Poland and Russia because of this tragedy near Katyn, symbolized by Putin and Tusk's emotional hug.

I call bullshit.

Gull guano.

Psyop.

The reptilian Putin and the sinister Tusk embracing is about as meaningful and convincing as Tony Blair and Gordon Brown sharing an icecream in front of the cameras.

Some deep, still invisible, geopolitical agenda and back channel deal is being played out between Poland's American-backed politicians and the KGB's Putin. :ridinghorse:

Paul Rigby
04-13-2010, 09:34 PM
Some deep, still invisible, geopolitical agenda and back channel deal is being played out between Poland's American-backed politicians and the KGB's Putin. :ridinghorse:

Confluence: the deep political convergence of unaccountable powers in pursuit of unarticulated ends. It will see off Putin just as it saw off Beria in 1953. The undeclared goal is, I have no doubt, the weaning away of Russia from China.

Helen Reyes
04-13-2010, 09:47 PM
The coverage here, too, is over-the-top, like CNN reporting on Michael Jackson's death for eight weeks running. I smell a rat.

Jan Klimkowski
04-13-2010, 10:02 PM
The coverage here, too, is over-the-top, like CNN reporting on Michael Jackson's death for eight weeks running. I smell a rat.

In addition, Kaczynski was highly expendable: the Germans hated him, the Russians hated him, New Labour would routinely taunt the Tories for his views on homosexuality and the alleged anti-semitism of some in his party etc.

The moist eyes of European politicians are the crocodile tears of ham actor politicians.

Meanwhile, the Polish politicians who are owned by the Americans, rather than being sympathetic to America, are the likes of Donald Tusk and Radek Sikorski.

A couple of significant moves have just been made on the Grand Chessboard.

Helen Reyes
04-14-2010, 08:21 AM
The coverage here, too, is over-the-top, like CNN reporting on Michael Jackson's death for eight weeks running. I smell a rat.

In addition, Kaczynski was highly expendable: the Germans hated him, the Russians hated him, New Labour would routinely taunt the Tories for his views on homosexuality and the alleged anti-semitism of some in his party etc.

The moist eyes of European politicians are the crocodile tears of ham actor politicians.

Meanwhile, the Polish politicians who are owned by the Americans, rather than being sympathetic to America, are the likes of Donald Tusk and Radek Sikorski.

A couple of significant moves have just been made on the Grand Chessboard.

Binyamin Netanyahu called him a great friend of Israel. Did the Kaczynskis come too close to emulating the postures of Czech's Klaus? The pre-election debate in the UK about Polish/Baltic neo-fascism seemed to center on the Euro-parliament, not Kaczynski, with Cameron taking hits for being in league with Latvian Waffen SS veterans and supporters. Sikorski allegedly petitioned for Roman Polanski's release in a quiet diplomatic way, or at least his American journalist wife was accused of furthering that alleged program of his. If Roman Polanski hurt Tony Blair's chances of becoming EU president, and presumably Ghost-Writer is also about Gordon Brown, then is Sikorski lending secret support to Cameron, despite his hopping parties to join the fake leftist Trusk? How does Kaczynski get painted with the same brush of anti-Semitism as do Polish apologists for the Holocaust in the Euro-parliament, when Kaczynski was a booster for projects to commemorate the Jewish heritage in Poland? And if it's this twisted and convoluted, is it possible Kaczynski was targeted by Third-Reich-in-exile types, as described by Ferrell and Mars? Or does "Third Reich in Exile" really just mean Bilderberg?

Just thinking out loud.

Carsten Wiethoff
04-14-2010, 09:34 AM
On March 13, 2010 Georgian Imedi TV screened a fictional "documentary", in which Kaczynski died from a bomb on board of his plane.

From http://www.gruzianews.ru/en/3339.html
Georgian television station Imedi “bury” the President of Poland (http://www.gruzianews.ru/en/3339.html)

Georgian private television station Imedi in the ill-fated reportage about “Russia’s aggression” also reported “death” Polish President Lech Kaczynski. As the Polish TVN24 with reference to the head of the Georgian diaspora in Poland David Gamtsemlidze, in Saturday’s half-hour film, which reported that “Russia attacking Georgia,” and “death of President Mikheil Saakashvili, and said that as a result of bombing killed and Lech Kaczynski. According to the TV, blow up the plane, in which he allegedly flew to the aid of Georgia.
“This has caused unprecedented panic. Many people have problems with the heart” - said about the effect of the film Gamtsemidze. Polish TV does not exclude that the preparation of the film are the Georgian authorities. In May, the first held in Georgia after the August war elections of local self-government. Their result, according to the source, will answer to the question: who are trusted to citizens, and to whom throw the responsibility for the tragic consequences of war with Russia in 2008. “The journalists of Imedi, it seems, like to warn that the Russian are going to escalate tension in connection with the election, as part of the opposition appealed to Russia for help,” - says the analyst of the Center for Eastern Studies in Warsaw, Krzysztof Strachota.

Paul Rigby
04-14-2010, 10:51 AM
On March 13, 2010 Georgian Imedi TV screened a fictional "documentary", in which Kaczynski died from a bomb on board of his plane.

Fascinating. So the incident has its own "fictive referent" (aka proleptic red-herring), courtesy of a CIA front?

Carsten Wiethoff
04-14-2010, 11:12 AM
Paul, can you elaborate on "CIA front"? In the reports I read in German MSM, the TV station is said to be under control of Saakashvili.

Magda Hassan
04-14-2010, 11:23 AM
Paul, can you elaborate on "CIA front"? In the reports I read in German MSM, the TV station is said to be under control of Saakashvili.
Exactly! Saakashvili is a fully authorised franchisee of the US and Company.

Carsten Wiethoff
04-14-2010, 11:38 AM
Then this must be interesting. From http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=22175
(emphasis mine)
Saakashvili: ‘Kaczynski Played Amazing Role in Fight for Georgia’s freedom’
Civil Georgia, Tbilisi / 10 Apr.'10 / 18:02

http://www.civil.ge/files/images/newsource/print.gif (http://www.civil.ge/eng/_print.php?id=22175) http://static.addtoany.com/buttons/favicon.png (http://www.addtoany.com/share_save) Polish President, Lech Kaczynski, who died in plane crash in Russia on April 10 “will always be remembered as absolutely outstanding figure of Polish history, of European history and certainly of the history of my region,” President Saakashvili said.
Speaking with CNN from London studio, Saakashvili described Kaczynski as a person with “great courage, big heart and principles.”
The Polish President, central bank head and the country's military chief were among 96 people killed when their plane crashed as it neared Smolensk airport in western Russia killing everyone on board. The delegation was en route to commemorate Poles killed in mass murders in Katyn under orders from Soviet leader Josef Stalin in 1940.
The Georgian President’s administration announced that Kaczynski was posthumously honored with an award of National Hero of Georgia for “showing heroism in defending Georgia’s interests” internationally. The statement also notes about Kaczynski’s role during the August, 2008, when he, along with presidents of Ukraine and Lithuania, as well as PMs from Latvia and Estonia arrived (http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19059) in Tbilisi in show of support.

“I was a young politicians when I first met him and since that moment we became close friends and I never called him the President, I called him Lech,” Saakashvili said in an interview with CNN.
“If I had to name who played an amazing role in terms of fighting for Georgia’s freedom, for Georgia’s future, I would put President Kaczynski very high in that gallery. And that’s not an exaggeration. I think my countrymen feel that way. We have seen his courage, we have seen his personal commitment,” he said.
Saakashvili also said that “there is something incredibly evil” about the tragic death of the Polish President.
Asked what he meant when saying “evil”, Saakashvili responded: “I mean the way he died. Of course, there is a symbolism in that. I do not want to comment about it.”
“I think ultimately, what he achieved, the legacy he leaves behind in terms of emotions, politics, human relations, the warmth of his heart… will outlast everything else and that will be something, that will stay for generations and generations,” Saakashvili said.
“I think that his ideals will prevail ultimately, good will always defeat evil,” he added.

Helen Reyes
04-14-2010, 12:18 PM
Then this must be interesting. From http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=22175
(emphasis mine)
...
The statement also notes about Kaczynski’s role during the August, 2008, when he, along with presidents of Ukraine and Lithuania, as well as PMs from Latvia and Estonia arrived (http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19059) in Tbilisi in show of support.
...


Who of the following are not CIA agents?: Godmanis, Yushchenko, Kaczynski, Ilves and Adamkus.

(Answer: Godmanis might not be.)

Helen Reyes
04-14-2010, 12:26 PM
Of possible interest:

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=172795


'Kaczynski was friend of Jewish people'
By GREER FAY CASHMAN AND HERB KEINON
10/04/2010 22:17

Israeli leaders praise Polish president, offer condolences to Polish people.

President Shimon Peres, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and IDF Chief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi joined other world leaders and top-ranking military officers in extending condolences to the government, people and army of Poland as well as to the families of the victims of the plane crash that took the lives of Polish President Lech Kaczynski, his wife, Maria, and other senior dignitaries and military personnel.

Also among the dead were relatives of Polish prisoners of war, mainly armed forces officers and members of the Polish intelligentsia – some of them Jews – who were killed in 1943 in the notorious massacre in the Katyn forest, 19 kilometers west of Smolensk in Russia.

The presidential plane was heading for a memorial ceremony for the victims of the massacre.

Netanyahu, who met with Kaczynski in Poland and sat alongside him less than three months ago at the International Holocaust Awareness ceremony commemorating the 65th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, issued a statement, saying, “I knew Kaczynski as a Polish patriot, a great friend of Israel and a leader who did much for his people and to further world peace and prosperity.”

Netanyahu said Kaczynski led an important process to begin a new chapter in relations between Poles and Jews, and between Poland and Israel.

Lieberman and Barak also issued statements mourning the loss, with the foreign minister praising Kaczynski as a “true friend” of Israel who proved his friendship in both words and deeds.

Barak said Kaczynski’s death was a “great loss to his people and to the entire world.”

Peres, who had spent a considerable amount of time with Kaczynski in April, 2008, when Peres paid a state visit to Poland for the 65th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising, expressed Israel’s shock at the tragedy that struck Poland.

“The news of the tragic accident that has taken the lives of my friend, President Lech Kaczynski, his wife Maria Kaczynska, and prominent members of Poland’s leadership and its parliament, has been received with a great deal of pain, shock and distress,” said Peres.

“This tragic event is a dreadful blow to the Polish people and to the world at large. My friend, President Kaczynski, was among those who led and advanced change in his country, and represented free Poland, democratic Poland and modern Poland.”

Peres also praised the work of Kaczynski and his wife to promote closer ties between the Poles and Jews by helping to “heal the scars of the past,” and emphasized that bilateral ties between Israel and Poland had been strengthened during Kaczynski’s presidency.

Yad Vashem Chairman Avner Shalev made the point that Kaczynski, who visited Yad Vashem twice, saw importance in maintaining the memory of the Holocaust, and that the subject of Righteous Among the Nations was particularly close to his heart.

Kaczynski was an ardent promoter of the Museum of the History of Polish Jews, for which he gave the land when he was mayor of Warsaw. The museum is being built alongside the Warsaw Ghetto monument.

It is not yet known who will represent Israel at Kaczynski’s funeral. According to protocol, it should be Peres, who is leaving for Paris on Tuesday for the dedication of a square to be named in honor of his mentor, and Israel’s founding prime minister, David Ben Gurion. He may continue on to Poland if the funeral is held later in the week. A spokesperson for Beit Hanassi told The Jerusalem Post that the situation is still unclear.

Among the other victims of the tragedy were Chief of the Polish Army’s General Staff Franciszek Gagor, the Ground Troops’ commander Gen. Tadeusz Buk, Air Force Commander Gen. Andrzej Blasik and the special-purpose troops’ commander Gen. Wlodzimierz Potashinski.

In a condolence message to the Polish Defense Forces and their commanders, as well as to the family of Gagor, Ashkenazi said that he had met with Gagor several times over the past three years. He recalled in particular a NATO conference and a time when Gagor had hosted him while Ashkenazi was in Poland to participate in the March of the Living.

Ashkenazi described Gagor as “a superb army man” and remarked on his keen interest in IDF officers who participated in the Witnesses in Uniform program in which the IDF teaches its young officers about the Holocaust by taking them to the death camps and explaining what happened there. Ashkenazi said that he and Gagor had conversed at length on the program, and it had been of importance to Gagor that the officers meet with counterparts in the Polish Army so that they could realize that Poland’s new generation was also being educated about the lessons of the Holocaust.

Paul Rigby
04-14-2010, 12:32 PM
Paul, can you elaborate on "CIA front"? In the reports I read in German MSM, the TV station is said to be under control of Saakashvili.

The war criminal under discussion, Carsten, is as meaningfully independent of Washington's control as, say, Tony Blair or the Cameroonian. We are dealing, after all, with the most totalitarian imperialism in history, with a front-man (or woman) for just about every contingency, as the career of Obamaman attests.

Jan Klimkowski
04-14-2010, 05:33 PM
Here are some fragments on Lech Kaczynski's thinking, and why the German and Russian elites will not mourn his death.

In particular, one of his aides compared the proposed Russian-German pipeline bypassing Poland to a C21st version of the Nazi-Soviet Pact. He also threatened to bring a lawsuit for Euros 54 billion in war reparations from Germany after the lebensraum mob started agitating about the "eastern territories".

I would interpret Kaczynski's support for the colour revolutions in the former USSR republics primarily in terms of his slav nationalism and anti-Soviet/Communist thinking. However, the twins could easily have had strong contacts with western intelligence agencies, particularly American ones.

The interpretation in the articles needs to be taken with the usual pinch of salt when examining such MSM stuff:



The Atlantic Times - August 2006

Where Is Poland Headed? Lech Kaczynski wants close ties to the U.S. and is eyeing a bigger role in Europe. By Barbara Oertel

During the Polish election campaign the new president, Lech Kaczynski, not only attacked his liberal opponent Donald Tusk, but Brussels, Berlin and Moscow as well. What is he up to?

Poland is led by twins: Since Nov. 10, Lech Kaczynski’s nationalist conservative Law and Justice Party (PiS), which is headed by his twin brother, Jaroslaw, has led a minority government supported by the left-radical agrarian party Self-Defense of the Republic of Poland (SRP) and the Nationalist League of Polish Families (LPR).

The new president is a fervent anti-communist and devout Catholic. He has dedicated himself to bringing about a “Fourth Republic” in Poland by vowing to relentlessly fight corruption and the power of insider cliques, by showing solidarity with the underprivileged, and by defending Poland’s national interests. He says he stands for honor, justice, morality, faith and family. He also favors the death penalty.

Constant references to the protection and defense of Poland’s national interests have made west Europeans sit up and take notice. What foreign policy are the Kaczynski brothers planning to follow? Soon after the election, President Kaczynski made his priorities clear. His first trip abroad would take him to the United States, the second to the Vatican, he announced.

The Washington Post has called these travel plans evidence that the new leadership will maintain the close ties between Poland and the United States. Their friendship was underscored when Poland, a NATO member, stood by Washington during the Iraq war, embodying what Donald Rumsfeld called “new Europe.”

In fact, the new Polish president regards good relations with the United States as indispensable for the defense of Poland’s national interests. The first signs are already visible. Poland had originally planned to withdraw its 2,500 soldiers from Iraq by early 2006. The new government has now assured Washington that it will keep 900 men in the embattled country until the end of the year.

Unlike Washington, the EU will have to adjust to changes under the regime of the Kaczynski brothers.

The PiS has joined the “Union for Europe of the Nations Group” in the European Parliament, a grouping of parties skeptical of the prospects for European integration. Lech Kaczynski is seen as a euroskeptic, and has made no bones about his dislike of the proposed European constitution. Missing in that text, according to him, are references to Christian values in Europe.

Kaczynski is also skeptical about the euro. He was recently quoted as saying that “the euro would increase inflation in Poland and depress the standard of living.” Moreover, he announced plans to hold a referendum on joining the eurozone – but only shortly before the end of his presidential term.

Polish commentator Piotr Semka regards the EU as one of the greatest challenges for the new president. “He will have to demonstrate that he is capable of reaching agreements with the other European nations,” Semka wrote in Rzeczpospolita. “But the negative image he has abroad will not exactly make this task easier.”

The network of relationships within the EU could also be skewed by the Kaczynskis, as the brothers would like to establish a Warsaw-Paris axis. That this might even have some chance of success can be gathered from a telegram in which French President Jacques Chirac not only congratulated Kaczynski particularly warmly on his victory, but also invited him for a state visit to Paris. As The Economist noted: “Politics in Warsaw may be taking on a more Gaullist hue: nationalist and wedded to farm interests, with a dose of Polish clericalism thrown in.”

Behind this Polish effort to create a Warsaw-Paris axis is the idea that a counterweight is needed for the friendly relations between Moscow and Berlin. It is particularly the use of the “anti-German card” during the election campaign that shows that Poland’s new president still has a number of historical accounts to settle with his western neighbor. One example is the planned creation of a “Center against Expulsion” in Berlin – which Kaczynski vehemently opposes. The CDU is in favor of establishing this center, which is to focus on the millions of ethnic Germans forced out of Poland, Czechoslovakia and other former German-populated territories in Eastern Europe after the end of World War II.

Kaczynski has also threatened to demand reparations to the tune of €54 billion from Germany for war damage suffered by Poland, should Germans attempt to make compensation claims in court for territory lost during the expulsions.

Old fears of their neighbors have also been reawakened among Poles by the deal former German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder and Russian President Vladimir Putin struck in September to build a gas pipeline through the Baltic Sea, as that pipeline will bypass both Poland and the Baltic states. Kaczynski made good use of these fears during his election campaign, though his belligerent rhetoric has toned down substantially in the meantime.

At her inaugural visit to Warsaw on Dec. 4, new Chancellor Angela Merkel tried to pour oil on troubled waters. She said that Germany by all means wants to strengthen its relationship with Poland. Even though Berlin is interested in good strategic relations with Russia, this must not happen without consulting Poland, she emphasized.

The “Center against Expulsion” was not extensively discussed during the talks, but should now, according to Merkel, be tackled in a European network and with approval from Poland. Regarding the Baltic Sea pipeline, Merkel offered Warsaw the prospect of providing Poland its own access to the Greifswald terminal (see page 3). At the EU year-end summit, she managed to secure an additional €100 million for Poland.

In comments to the German tabloid Bild, Kaczynski sought to reassure Germans that he was their partner and their friend. He also said he wanted to improve Poland’s relations with Russia – to the consternation of some in Belarus and in Ukraine. Their dismay comes because Poland played a key intermediary role during the so-called Orange Revolution in Kiev last fall, and those in the opposition hoped to continue to rely on Poland not only for help with their efforts to democratize but to lobby Brussels as well.

Poland’s efforts to help its eastern neighbors are a thorn in Russia’s side. On the other hand, the help provided is in the interest of the U.S., which has by now placed Belarus on its list of rogue states. It remains to be seen whether Lech Kaczynski will be able to manage this balancing act.

- Barbara Oertel is foreign policy editor of the daily newspaper, taz.



The Times obituary - Lech Kaczynski: President of Poland

April 12, 2010

Like Ronald Reagan, Lech Kaczynski came to public notice as a film actor before he became President. Unlike his American counterpart, Kaczynski had a twin brother, Jaroslaw, who also appeared in The Two Who Stole the Moon and who in later years was to serve as his Prime Minister. When the 1962 film, based on a popular children’s story by Kornel Makuszynski, was made the twins were in their early teens; they were born in Warsaw in 1949.

Lech Kaczynski’s career divides into two halves: that of a rebel against communist oppression and that of populist advocate of many traditional, right-wing sentiments.

At school he showed considerable academic prowess and after taking a law degree at the University of Warsaw set out upon an academic career, moving in 1971 to the University of Gdansk to undertake research on his chosen speciality, labour law. It was a propitious choice of vocation and location. By the second half of the 1970s Poland was seething with anger and resentment. The economy, having expanded rapidly in the first half of the decade, was in apparent freefall while poor housing, appalling health services and privileges for party members, stoked social discontent. In 1976 a poor harvest forced the Government to import food, and to pay for this it proposed to increase the price of meat in the home market. Strikes, riots and protests engulfed the country and the price increases were rescinded. But some protesters and strikers had been arrested by the authorities. To defend these victims a new organisation was formed, the Committee for Workers’ Defence, or KOR, a body that brought together the proletarian and the intelligentsia opponents of the regime; it was also one of Eastern Europe’s most important manifestations of a new and powerful phenomenon, “civil society”. Lech Kaczynski began working for KOR in 1977 and his expertise in labour law played a vital role in making it one of the most skilful of anti-government organisations.

His ability and expertise were even more valuable in 1980 when industrial unrest on his own doorstep, in the shipyards of Gdansk, gave birth to the Solidarity movement that rocked the Polish Communist regime and did much to prepare the ground for the upheavals of 1989 throughout Eastern Europe. Kaczynski became an adviser to the inter-enterprise strike committee in the shipyards, and it was the system of inter-enterprise committees that formed the basis of the Solidarity movement. Kaczynski was therefore at the heart of the movement and, hardly surprisingly, was among the many activists interned when martial law was imposed in Poland in December 1981.

By the end of the 1980s Solidarity had re-emerged and an enfeebled and discredited communist apparatus seemed powerless to restrain it. His previous experience in Gdansk, together with his professional training, made him a natural colleague and advisor to the charismatic Solidarity leader Lech Walesa. He was now sufficiently close to the Solidarity leadership to be made a member of its team for the all-important round table talks with the government from February to April 1989. In June of that year the Polish authorities allowed multiparty elections for the new upper house of the Polish parliament, the Senate. The opposition won 99 per cent of the seats it contested, one of the newly elected senators being Lech Kaczynski. In December he served as chief adviser to Walesa when the latter was elected President of Poland. By this time he had also been elected vice-chairman of the Solidarity trade union. No doubt partly as a reward for his help, Walesa nominated Kaczynski as Security Minister in the presidential chancery. Two years later, in 1992, the President sacked him. It was the beginning of a long bitter dispute between Walesa and the Kaczynski brothers. In February 2001 Lech Kaczynski, who at the time was also the Prosecutor General, announced that two former aides of Walesa were to be investigated for having taken bribes from gangland leaders, but a year and a half later Kaczynski himself was ordered by a court in Gdansk to apologise to the former President and to one of those former aides. The feud never died and reached its greatest intensity in November 2009, when Walesa sued Kaczynski for slander after the latter had accused him, in a TV interview, of having collaborated with the communist secret police.

Kaczynski’s ousting in 1992 was not surprising. His agenda was that of traditional Poland: nationalist, socially conservative, Catholic. His mother was a philologist. His father, an engineer, had fought with the Armia Krajowa, the Home Army, which had resisted the Nazis tooth and nail, most ferociously in the Warsaw Uprising of August-September 1944. But the Home Army had also been determined that they were not going to liberate their homeland in order for it to be taken over by the communists. Inevitably, as communist power tightened after the war, the Home Army veterans suffered discrimination. Resentment at the treatment of former Home Army personnel pushed the Kaczynski brothers towards the right of the political spectrum.

Despite his ejection from the presidential chancery Lech Kaczynski remained in public office, serving as president of the supreme chamber of control from February 1992 to May 1995. In June 2000 he was given his first ministerial post when the Prime Minister, Jerzy Buzek, made him Minister of Justice. Kaczynski rapidly established himself as a powerful advocate for the law and order lobby. He had been in office for only two months when he announced plans to amend the penal code and to increase prison sentences for murder and other crimes of violence; in February 2001 he told parliament that criminality in Poland had taken on “dangerous dimensions” and proposed some 400 changes in the penal code, including raising the minimum prison term for aggravated murder from 12 to 25 years. In addition to promoting tougher sentencing, he conducted a vigorous campaign against corruption. His attitudes commanded widespread support; in May 2001, only 20 per cent of the Polish population approved of the Buzek Government, but 70 per cent approved of Kaczynski and his policies. This did not save Kaczynski. In June of that year he had a public row with the Prime Minister over the arrest of a government official. Kaczynski was sacked.

The following year he was elected Mayor of Warsaw and continued the policies he had adopted as Minister of Justice. To widespread popular approval he carried out major drives against the “Warsaw connections”, or the networks of criminal gangs and corrupt officials that plagued the city. But his policies were populist as well as popular. In 2004 and 2005 he banned gay movement marches, athough he did sanction later a “Parade of Normality”. He also showed his nationalist colours.

He gave enthusiastic backing to the newly founded museum of the Warsaw Uprising and he established a historical commission to estimate the losses the city suffered during the Second World War. He was reacting, in part, to claims by small groups of Germans who had been expelled from Poland after the war, but it was a theme he was to revisit as President.

In 2001 Kaczynski and his brother had founded the Law and Justice Party, for which Lech was elected to parliament in September of that year and which by the middle of the decade had established itself as one of the main forces on the Right of Polish politics. It was the party that was to serve as Kaczynski’s power base when he decided, in March 2005, to enter as a candidate in the presidential elections in the autumn. In the second round he emerged a clear winner with 54 per cent of the vote. In his inaugural speech as President he committed himself to continuing the fight against crime and corruption, which were prominent among what he described as “various pathologies in our life”.

In foreign affairs he echoed Polish nationalist tradition of suspicion of both Russia and Germany. He had angered the former even as Minister of Justice when, in December 2000, he ordered that prosecutors investigate a mysterious high-tech telecommunications cable that Russia’s Gazprom has laid along its gas pipeline across Poland. Moscow took much greater offence when he agreed that the US could locate part of its planned anti- ballistic missile system in Poland. Kaczynski made further concessions to Washington when he stated that under certain circumstances Polish troops could continue their stabilisation mission in Iraq.

In his augural speech Kaczynski had emphasised that Poland needed “energy security” that could only be guaranteed by co-operation with the US and the EU. But Kaczynski never enjoyed an easy relationship with the latter’s most powerful member, Germany. His support for the Warsaw Uprising museum was an understandable legacy of Polish history, but German and other EU officials were more than a little disconcerted by his statements at the time of the Brussels summit in June 2007; Kaczynski suggested that Poland’s financial obligations and rights should be calculated on the basis of what its population would have been without the losses it suffered in the Second World War. European officials were also frustrated by Polish suspicions of EU-Russian co-operation, though these had sound historical roots, as when one minister compared a planned pipeline between Russia and Germany with the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact of 1939 that led to the partition of Poland.

There were tensions at home, too. As has frequently happened in independent Poland, the president and the prime minister have leant in opposite directions, and when Donald Tusk became Prime Minister in November 2007 there was noticeable friction between him and Kaczynski.

Kaczynski’s nationalism perhaps fitted ill with the post-nationalist construct of the EU, just as his post-communist social conservatism could not be reconciled to the liberal Western attitudes that had emerged while Poland was under communist domination. But however uncomfortable Kaczynski’s attitudes, they had understandable historical roots and explanations.

Despite the demands of politics, Kaczynski did not entirely forsake his academic interests. In 1980 he completed and successfully defended his doctoral thesis for the University of Gdansk, and in 1990 was awarded his “habilitation”. He then taught at the University of Gdansk and at the Cardinal Stefan Wyszynski University in Warsaw.

Kaczynski’s wife Maria also died in the crash. He is survived by a daughter.

Lech Kaczynski, President of Poland, was born on June 18, 1949. He died on April 10, 2010, aged 60

Paul Rigby
04-14-2010, 05:58 PM
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2010/04/neo-con-cia-agent-to-take-over-poland.html


On 22 March 2010, before the death of the Polish president Lech Kaczynski on 10 April, Rupert Murdoch's Times reported that Radoslaw Sikorski could, by October 2010, be the next President of Poland. (Is Radoslaw Sikorski the new face of Polish politics ...)

Helen Reyes
04-14-2010, 06:55 PM
It doesn't look very foggy to me, slightly, not heavy thick.

youtube rip (http://www.quickshare.co.za/files/y6orj7x5/kaczynski.flv.html)

Jan Klimkowski
04-15-2010, 05:24 PM
It doesn't look very foggy to me, slightly, not heavy thick.

youtube rip (http://www.quickshare.co.za/files/y6orj7x5/kaczynski.flv.html)

Helen - thanks for that.

Decent quality modern cameras will lighten and brighten scenes, making them seem less foggy than they actually are. However, even allowing for that, I agree that the scene does not look particularly foggy.

In addition, the multiple fires burning confirm that the plane still had fuel.

If it was pure pilot error, then a top-notch military pilot entrusted with the safety of many of his country's VIPs had a catastrophic day at the office. I would say an unbelievably catastrophic day at the office.

The key questions are around whether the pilot's control of the aircraft was complete and intact. Even then, a top military pilot would expect to have a decent chance of getting a partially crippled plane down and on the ground.

To cause an aircraft flown by a top military pilot to crash, the loss of control probably needs to be fundamental.

As most likely happened with the 1994 Chinook helicopter crash at the Mull of Kintyre in which much of the British Northern Ireland intelligence cabal died.

Jan Klimkowski
04-15-2010, 05:29 PM
An attempt to blame Lech Kaczynski and other strong-willed VIPs for "pressuring" the pilot to land has, apparently, not been substantiated by the black box evidence.


Polish plane crash: pilots were not pressured to land

Black box analysis dispels rumours that passengers on President Lech Kaczynski's plane ordered pilots to land in fog

Russian investigators said today the black box retrieved from Saturday's devastating plane crash that killed Poland's president, Lech Kaczynski, did not provide any evidence that the pilots had been pressured to land.

Officials said transcripts of conversations from inside the cockpit rebutted widespread theories that the Polish delegation had insisted the pilot land, despite heavy fog at Smolensk airport.

"There is no confirmation that any of the high-ranking passengers ordered the pilots to land near Smolensk. The flight recorder, whose tapes are being deciphered, did not register any pressure on crew members," a source close to the commission investigating the crash told the Russian news agency Interfax.

This week Poland's former prime minister Leszek Miller told the Guardian he thought Kaczynski may have personally contributed to the accident by insisting the pilots land in Smolensk in western Russia. Air traffic control on the ground had told the delegation to divert the plane to either Moscow or Minsk because of low visibility.

Kaczynski had been determined to reach Smolensk to attend a memorial service on the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, Miller said.

"The president so wanted to be there. The pilot knew this and so they accepted the risk and in the process lost everything," the former social democratic prime minister said on Sunday.

Russian investigators said the most compelling explanation for the crash remained pilot error. They said the crew knew Smolensk's military Severny airfield was not equipped with a modern landing navigation system, unlike international airports. "The Polish side was properly informed about this well in advance," the source said.

The president's Tupulov plane attempted to land three times. On its fourth attempt it clipped a copse of trees between 500 to 700 metres short of the runway, and immediately broke up. There were no survivors. Russian TV showed pictures of the upended wing and smouldering fuselage. Small fires burned in woods shrouded in fog.

Russia said it had formally handed over the black boxes to Poland. It also returned personal belongings and documents belonging to President Kaczynski, which were retrieved from the crash site.

The catastrophe also killed the president's wife, Maria, and dozens of top officials from Poland's military and clergy, as well as historians, Solidarity activists, and senior government servants.

Forensic investigators have so far identified 70 of the 96 victims.

The bodies of the Polish president and his wife are lying in state at the presidential palace in Warsaw. A state funeral will be held in Krakow on Sunday, with the US president, Barack Obama, and his Russian counterpart, Dmitry Medvedev, among the attendees.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/15/polish-plane-crash-lech-kaczynksi

Paul Rigby
04-15-2010, 07:00 PM
...the 1994 Chinook helicopter crash at the Mull of Kintyre in which much of the British Northern Ireland intelligence cabal died.

An analogy worth pursuing if only to discount it.

The Mull "cull" took place because the senior incumbent espiocrats in N. Ireland were intent upon a very specific and drastic change in policy. This description of that policy remains the most succinct I've seen:

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=567&postcount=6


The Sunday Business Post and the Phoenix have produced evidence of a plot by intelligence and police to react to an IRA rejection of the Major/Reynolds declaration with a round-up of suspects on both sides of the border. The highly-publicised Operation Madronna on 19 April, involving 1,000 troops and police, is said to have been a “dress rehearsal” for the biggest round-up since internment. An intercepted intelligence phone call suggested that the word “internment” would not be used this time and that suspects would be charged, on intelligence information, of “directing terrorism”: a new offence recently introduced into the Northern Ireland courts.

Paul Foot, “Spooky,” Private Eye, 29 July 1994, p.26

The obvious question follows, and forgive my near-perfect ignorance of (contemporary) Polish politics in asking it: Was anything planned by the deceased Kaczynski and cohorts, especially for the near future, that might have prompted the kind of swift and deadly mass clear-out we witnessed over the Mull? Anything in the Polish press - or elsewhere - to this effect?

I have in mind something like Kaczynksi's visit to Georgia in support of the assault on South Ossetia and Abkhazia, only more serious.

David Guyatt
04-15-2010, 07:14 PM
It is my understanding that the Mull 'crashicide' may have had an American origin because of "new broom" thinking to solve the "Irish problem" once and for all, and thus bring peace in our times. There was too much dirty laundry to be kept hidden and the launderers were thus forfeited to the cause.

Although I may not have this precisely right, I do remember discussing this with an Irish writer a few years back and he had some very interesting insights into the whole Mull affair.

There were reports that the downed helicopter was shadowed by another "black" helicopter of unknown origin and zero markings. Thoughts turned to a Radio Frequency HIRF gun.

Jan Klimkowski
04-15-2010, 07:43 PM
The obvious question follows, and forgive my near-perfect ignorance of (contemporary) Polish politics in asking it: Was anything planned by the deceased Kaczynski and cohorts, especially for the near future, that might have prompted the kind of swift and deadly mass clear-out we witnessed over the Mull? Anything in the Polish press - or elsewhere - to this effect?

I have in mind something like Kaczynksi's visit to Georgia in support of the assault on South Ossetia and Abkhazia, only more serious.

I don't know of anything specific.

However, there are some troubling and conflicting aspects of the crash's aftermath:

i) the ubiquitous "Kaczynski was a great and honourable man" chorus - sung from Tel Aviv to Buckingham Palace, from Moscow to Paris. Most European and American politicians regarded the Kaczynski twins as unexploded hand grenades liable to take a leg off at any time;

ii) the attempts of American-backed and owned Polish politicians (eg Tusk, Radek Sikorski), to ensure that the crash has been framed as an accident, rather than anything sinister;

iii) the ubiquitous "this tragedy seals a historic reconciliation between Poland and Russia" chorus. Note that Tusk and Putin had had their own, little publicized but officially sanctioned, Katyn ceremony a few days before Kaczynski and the Polish Army/Intel top brass flew in for their own unsanctioned and ill-fated Katyn ceremony;

iv) Putin's seeming willingness to be part of this "historic reconciliation" meme, which involves the KGB's Putin hugging - symbolically bonding - with the American-backed (owned) faction of Polish politicians embodied by Tusk.

My tentative position is that Lech Kaczynski and elements around him were stubborn, immovable, impediments to some deep black Grand Chessboard activity. Some still unseen Faustian Pact.

Lech's identical twin, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, has kept largely silent so far.

If this was murder most foul, then Jaroslaw should be hiring an official food taster and Evo Morales' secret service.

And he should avoid walking through crowded hotel ballrooms....

Helen Reyes
04-15-2010, 09:55 PM
To cause an aircraft flown by a top military pilot to crash, the loss of control probably needs to be fundamental.

As most likely happened with the 1994 Chinook helicopter crash at the Mull of Kintyre in which much of the British Northern Ireland intelligence cabal died.

What happened to the rumour that the mobile phones went dead on the plane right before the crash? Has that been rejected, followed up or substantiated?

I agree with Jan on the foreign perception of the Kaczynskis as unexploded ordnance, and all this spectacular mourning seems odd at the very least, and points to something else going on.

Did Lech Kaczynski have some big surprise planned that only he, MI6 and NSA knew about? Did it involve EU membership, Lisbon, the loss of the Rzeczpospolita's liberum veto? CIA torture sites? Hard to say.

I came to the same conclusion Webster Tarpley seems to have on Schroeder and Putin's deal to pump natural gas across the Baltic sea bed: Poland and the Baltic states opposed it because it meant loss of transit fees and their loss of the ability to blackmail western Europe by cutting off the Russian fuel. This was a big point of contention for a while and might still be, with Merkel taking over Schroeder's position and Schroeder getting a cushy job at Gazprom in exchange for the deal. I also heard the Baltic states were furious about the new nuclear arms reduction treaty between the US and Russia, but have no further information on that, and none on Poland's position. The missile shield is another nexus around which assassinations might orbit. Afghanistan, too, with Karzai making a public spectacle of appearing to cut the marionette strings by threatening to go over to the mythical Taliban, which means the civilian peasantry who are supposed to be his constituency.

As a flow-of-consciousness matter, it all adds up to something nuclear in Asia (nuclear reductions, Russian gas, missile shield, Karzai). Was Kaczynski about to sing like a canary about some secret NATO plan for a new war? Speculation.

Dawn Meredith
04-16-2010, 11:23 AM
My husband Erick found this last night:
The Kremlin must be very upset about this. Make sure it goes viral. Post it everywhere.

This is a short video which was taken down from YouTube and salvaged by another website.

This is a video taken five minutes after the Polish plane crash. You can hear four gunshots. Below is the link for the video and a translation from the Russian.

http://goldismoney2.com/showthread.php?2795-Amature-Vid-Polish-plane-crash-shots-fired&

0:29 f**king
0:30 damn
0:43 we leave here, leaving
0:47 Get out of here you bastard
0:49 go from here
1:00 f**king a
1:12 all back leaving
1:18 father leave everything, we're leaving
1:21 f**king a

Magda Hassan
04-16-2010, 12:08 PM
The video is still on You Tube. Probably not gun shots, though possible. More likely popping aerosol cans or similar in the flames.

Helen Reyes
04-16-2010, 12:12 PM
Dawn, I think I posted the rip of this above. YT keeps removing it and people keep reposting it. Your link links to a reposting on youtube ultimately. Besides my rip, I saved the actual FLV from YT downloaded onto my computer, but for whatever reason it won't play on my players and says my flash version is too old. It's not. The YT temp file is 8 MB while my other rip is 4 MB.

It sounds like gunshots to me too.

Dawn Meredith
04-16-2010, 12:13 PM
Possibly BUT Erick said the first guy who put it up on utube had his account cancelled. Then this one had been captured for a website. But now it is back up on utube. Erick is an expert in guns and thinks it is shots, that four different cans would make forur different noises, while shots from the same gun sound the same.

Dawn

Helen Reyes
04-16-2010, 12:35 PM
yep, i heard the same, the acct was cancelled. other people keep putting it back up, i gather. that link points to yt internally so if it goes down again, you can get the file anyway in my earlier post.

"warning shots" doesn't make sense to me. OMON troops arrive on the scene without knowing if there are survivors or not, and tell everyone standing gtfo? Doesn't sound likely. They'd ascertain first if any of the people in the area were survivors, then start herding bystanders out. The medical emergency would take priority, not securing perimeters, if this were the event it's being painted as. At least it seems to me. Agree on the sounds, there's a distinct profile to the pops.

Keith Millea
04-16-2010, 02:37 PM
but for whatever reason it won't play on my players and says my flash version is too old.

Helen,
I had the same problem yesterday,couldn't get any youtube videos to play.I finally went to Adobe site and did an update,and that fixed the problem. :dontknow:

Update:
Tried to play the video,and now I have lost my flashplayer completely.WTF

Keith Millea
04-16-2010, 04:41 PM
Had to download flash player to view the video.Those certainly sound like shots,but they don't sound like an AK-47 round.I'm gonna guess that it's rounds burning off in the fire.

Helen Reyes
04-16-2010, 08:58 PM
YT sent me an FLV with a weird encoding. I ripped it using one of the web services for that and it was fine, played fine, was half the size. I'm a little overcautious with flash updates but have a new enough version.

The shots sound like they're chambered, and it sounds like a larger calibre pistol to me. Rounds tossed in a fire sound more pingy usually. Could be sidearms on burning human bodies, but it coincides with the muffled shouts in Russian in the background a little too well for my taste.

Ed Jewett
04-17-2010, 12:36 AM
I saw the same video but did not have time to post it. I thought at first it might be normal plane crash explosions but I have to agree with Helen's analysis, at least in the absence of other severely-countervailing info. And there's no way I speak Polish, so the translation of those voices is critical.

I'm just a spectator, being quite distant from any accuracy of intuition about politics, players, etc. Shots fired after a plane crash is normal procedure in rescue operations in certain countries, right?

Frankly, it looks like open season has been declared internationally and the globe is a free-fire zone. It'll be ramping up...

Perhaps we ought to set up a 24-hour watch system for breaking news. Maybe we already have in informally with enough DPF'ers ...

Should we have one of those little sticky-pin maps that shows where everyone is at, or the system that shows where visitors arrive from?

Or at least a list of functionally good (quick, accurate, widely-sourced) wire services on the 'net...

Magda Hassan
04-17-2010, 01:34 AM
I'd like to know more about the video and the person who posted it. It may well be just a father and son who just happened to be walking in the woods nearby who just happened to have their video camera with them that day and who just happened to stumble across the plane crash site. But it may be something else entirely.

As for the 'gun fire' I'm not convinced either. It all sounds different to me. Certainly not all from the same source or direction what ever it is.

Ed, it is Russian they are speaking and it is just sort of WTF? Let's get outtahere.

Ed Jewett
04-17-2010, 02:54 AM
Ed, it is Russian they are speaking ....


I told you I was a distant spectator. Geesh, I'm still working on my French.

Jan Klimkowski
04-18-2010, 02:09 PM
According to the clip below, from Faux News, Russian investigators now state that the plane did not make several attempts to land.

The new official version is that it only made one attempt, hit some trees, and then crashed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2BW47GSjHk

So, numerous elements of the original official or semi-official scenario are now shown to be false:

i) Kaczynski pressured the pilot to land. Now the official version states there's no evidence of such pressure from the black box audio recordings;

ii) the pilot didn't speak good Russian and therefore couldn't communicate properly with Russian air traffic controllers. Not true - the pilot was fluent in Russian;

iii) the plane made multiple attempts to land. Now, it appears, also not true. Indeed, presumably the black box - if genuine - would show the movements of the plane, including any circling of the runway, with precision.

:joyman:

Paul Rigby
04-20-2010, 07:02 PM
The obvious question follows, and forgive my near-perfect ignorance of (contemporary) Polish politics in asking it: Was anything planned by the deceased Kaczynski and cohorts, especially for the near future, that might have prompted the kind of swift and deadly mass clear-out we witnessed over the Mull? Anything in the Polish press - or elsewhere - to this effect?

I have in mind something like Kaczynksi's visit to Georgia in support of the assault on South Ossetia and Abkhazia, only more serious.

Aangirfan...

http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2010/04/sabotage-of-polish-plane.html

who referenced this blogger...

http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com/2010/04/poland-untangling-themselves-from.html

But, then I came across this today: Poland’s patriots gone in an instant


"The decision was made by President Kaczynski and his cabinet to begin the process of devaluing their currency and exiting the E.U. in order to stabilize and save Poland’s economy, when this terrible crash occurred."

...who cited this in turn:

http://www.andalusiastarnews.com/news/2010/apr/14/polands-patriots-gone-instant/

Jan Klimkowski
04-20-2010, 08:00 PM
See here the economic logic and rationale for Poland's devaluation of the zloty and why it is so threatening to global capital:

http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3602

Phil Dragoo
04-21-2010, 11:46 AM
The links above are dire in their implications.

Poland was decapitated.

Iceland's volcano could only be a consequence in the zeitgeist of Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory.



.

Danny Jarman
04-23-2010, 11:33 AM
Just had a quick browse through this thread and can't quite believe what i'm reading. Really disturbing.

Helen Reyes
04-23-2010, 02:39 PM
The links above are dire in their implications.

Poland was decapitated.

Iceland's volcano could only be a consequence in the zeitgeist of Mel Gibson in Conspiracy Theory.



.

Not to quibble, but if memory serves it went down like this:

1. Julian Assange was tailed to Norway;
1.5 solar coronal mass ejection of unknown intesity struck earth despite lack of expected solar magnetic storm normally considered the cause of CMEs;
2. Volcano began as a lamp in a cave without seismic portent;
3. Julian Assange discovered his volunteer was arrested and he was tailed to Norway, and mentioned it on twitter.com/wikileaks;
4. Volcanic ash caused Iceland to close airspace temporarily;
5. The Grand Duke of Poland and vassals eliminated;
6. Mysterious green fireball filmed over Wisconsin; MUFON reports UFOs inside the Iceland eruption, provides timestamps for frames of a webcam archive available on internet when anomalous squares and triangles appear;
7. London Met provided computer modeling used for the European Commission to recommend member states close national airspace, despite a complete lack of actual ash in the air, except in the extreme NW corner of Scotland.

Possibly related: Norway spiral coincides with awarding of Nobel War-is-Peace Prize to the CIA agent in the White House while black pyramid appears over Moscow; solar minimum finally ends, but it's a dud: no real sunspots, but some great northern lights displays from September to present, some appearing as bright green spirals in time lapse.

Ed Jewett
04-23-2010, 08:23 PM
... and the US launched some mysterious black project fast development robotic low orbit autonomous return space vehicle.

Ed Jewett
04-23-2010, 08:25 PM
but I don't have a clue where the swivel mount and the trigger guard are on the thing.

Peter Presland
04-24-2010, 06:19 AM
But all due (black) humour aside, this does have all the makings of a very deep political event.

I find it all the more disturbing in that, on the face of it, the the major beneficiaries are the Western Establishment but that it could not have been pulled of without the comprehensive involvement of the Russians.

That points to what Paul has hinted at several times, namely a possible, sort of hidden, covert rapprochement and cooperation between Russia and the West in the NWO project.

It appears that pretty well all Western politicians cried off from attendance at the funeral of the Polish President at the last minute too - citing the ash cloud. The most notable being Angela Merkel (Berlin only 400Km away) and Obama.

Another good video with lots of food for thought here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoUkobHYAlk&feature=player_embedded)

Helen Reyes
04-25-2010, 09:13 AM
I find it all the more disturbing in that, on the face of it, the the major beneficiaries are the Western Establishment but that it could not have been pulled of without the comprehensive involvement of the Russians.

From the Polish perspective one might call it a repeat of Molotov-Ribbentrop.


That points to what Paul has hinted at several times, namely a possible, sort of hidden, covert rapprochement and cooperation between Russia and the West in the NWO project.

Pointing to the same eschalon of operation that allows Lee Harvey Oswald to shuffle back and forth between the nuclear-armed camps with ease, or for Gorbachev to make a few phone calls telling Soviet standard bearers to stand down and allow the Eastern European "revolutions" to go forward unhindered, or the "hardliners' coup" in Moscow who allegedly imprisoned Gorby in his Crimean dacha playing out the drama of the death of the USSR as if they were high-ranking members of the Actors and Marionetteers Union, with everything ending on cue, amid pathos, nostalgia, memory and culture for all, etc. etc.


It appears that pretty well all Western politicians cried off from attendance at the funeral of the Polish President at the last minute too - citing the ash cloud. The most notable being Angela Merkel (Berlin only 400Km away) and Obama. ...

Merkel could've driven easily but didn't even need to, there was no ash. Air Force One can take off on a moments notice for Indonesia, but somehow White House staff and the crew forgot the world is round, and that they could fly to Cracow in Eastern Poland easily without crossing Western Europe at all, by approaching over Russian and Belarusian airspace, which were not closed to commercial airliners at all as far as I'm aware. Why would Soetoro avoid flying in Russian airspace right now? Would Hitler have avoided flights crossing Stalin's Soviet airspace after they signed their peace agreement? Or was it just, to paraphrase the Tennessee zinc farmer Albert Gore, an inconvenient funeral?

(There is still no sign of ash and still no sign commercial flights have resumed. There is also no sign of the brilliant colors at sunset that follow the eruption of volcanoes in the United States, Indonesia, Philippines and Kamchatka in Eastern Russia. Icelandic volcanic ash seems to have completely different physical properties from all other known volcanic ash: it is invisible to the naked eye, does not refract sunlight in the atmosphere and so deadly that a single particle can bring down a 757 in a heartbeat, kill a herd of cattle, ruin croplands and decimate human lung tissue. And it contains natural fluoride, which is good for human teeth and bone and organ tissue, but fatal to cows, pigs, sheep, horses and potatoes.)

Jan Klimkowski
04-26-2010, 06:58 PM
Jaroslaw Kaczynski runs to replace brother Lech in Polish election

Leader of Law and Justice party vows to continue the work of his twin, who was president, and others killed in plane crash

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/26/jaroslaw-kaczynski-polish-elections-presidency

Politicians of East and West united to declare Lech Kaczynski a great and noble man.

Once he was dead.

In truth, all those politicians spoke with forked tongue. They hated Lech Kaczynski to a man and a woman. They hated his actions, such as devaluing the dollar and opposing a Russian-German gas pipeline which bypassed Polish territory.

Jaroslaw Kaczynski is an identical twin of his dead brother in almost every respect. He should take care in his travels and his choice of cuisine - lest his skin peels off in radiant horror....

Paul Rigby
04-26-2010, 07:23 PM
That points to what Paul has hinted at several times, namely a possible, sort of hidden, covert rapprochement and cooperation between Russia and the West in the NWO project.


Pointing to the same eschalon of operation that allows Lee Harvey Oswald to shuffle back and forth between the nuclear-armed camps with ease, or for Gorbachev to make a few phone calls telling Soviet standard bearers to stand down and allow the Eastern European "revolutions" to go forward unhindered, or the "hardliners' coup" in Moscow who allegedly imprisoned Gorby in his Crimean dacha playing out the drama of the death of the USSR as if they were high-ranking members of the Actors and Marionetteers Union, with everything ending on cue, amid pathos, nostalgia, memory and culture for all, etc. etc.

Er, exactly.

Paul Rigby
04-26-2010, 07:32 PM
http://www.russiaprofile.org/page.php?pageid=Experts%27+Panel&articleid=a1272049492

April 23, 2010
Russia Profile Weekly Experts Panel: Russian – Polish Strategic Reconciliation?


Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter between 1977 and 1981, believes that "..in this tragic situation there are positive possibilities. The president died during a great pilgrimage for truth, independence and reconciliation. The reaction of Russia following this tragic accident creates a situation favorable for reconciliation.”

"I do not think that this is a game on the part of Russians, this is something sincere. And very new. That is why there exist new, unforeseen possibilities of deeper Polish-Russian reconciliation," Brzezinski told Polish journalists.

Yes, a reconciliation that spells - "Get China!"

Jan Klimkowski
04-26-2010, 07:44 PM
Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter between 1977 and 1981, believes that "..in this tragic situation there are positive possibilities. The president died during a great pilgrimage for truth, independence and reconciliation. The reaction of Russia following this tragic accident creates a situation favorable for reconciliation.”

"I do not think that this is a game on the part of Russians, this is something sincere. And very new. That is why there exist new, unforeseen possibilities of deeper Polish-Russian reconciliation," Brzezinski told Polish journalists.

For those with Eyes Wide Open, Brzezinski has just given the Grand Game away.

I wonder if the secret protocols for dividing Eurasia have been committed to paper like their 1939 predecessor...
:eviltongue:

Paul Rigby
04-26-2010, 07:55 PM
For those with Eyes Wide Open, Brzezinski has just given the Grand Game away.

If no one objects, I'd really rather stick my head back in the sand. The view is better, and the effect unexpectedly comforting.

This isn't going to be pretty...

Magda Hassan
04-27-2010, 02:43 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8644411.stm
Sympathy vote?

Paul Rigby
05-01-2010, 06:24 PM
http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.com/2010/04/poland-imf-loans-and-radoslaw-sikorski.html


Friday, April 30, 2010

Poland-IMF loans and Radoslaw Sikorski does the US

So what is happening politically with Poland?

Let me drop a name. The name for the day is Radoslaw Sikorski.

Polands Foreign Minister is making the rounds in the US, on the arm of Hilary Rodham Clinton.

Just what have Rad and Hil been up to?! Reaffirming their firm commitment to one another?

Indeed, they have. Both countries have agreed to resume a strategic dialogue. They made the announcement together after talks in Washington, yesterday.

Some interesting statements, that may be relevant to the recent plane crash that wiped out the previous government.

Clinton and Sikorski also discussed the conflict in Afghanistan and new areas of U.S.-Polish cooperation on energy and climate.

Sikorski said if American companies exploring energy resources in Poland "strike it lucky," it would enhance the energy security of Poland and Europe and forge new investment links between Poland and the United States.

That is kind of surprising.

I thought Russia and Poland had just struck some kind of energy pipeline deal?
Now Sikorski is talking 'energy security' with the US?

A delegation led by Sikorski is on a week-long U.S. tour since Tuesday with the focus on renewing the Polish-American Strategic Dialogue.

Sikorski is also scheduled to meet with U.S. National Security Advisor James Jones, representatives of the U.S. Congress, and Washington think tanks.

Then Sikorski announced that Clinton is visiting Poland as a member of the elite group of countries which will meet in Krakow during July 2-4 to re-launch the Community of Democracies.

Joint Statement on the US and Polish Bilateral Strategic Dialogue

Hilary, is such a gal pal to Sikorski, she is promising to look in Polish Visas.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has promised to look into the issue of Poles requiring visas to enter the United States after a meeting with Polish Foreign Minister Rados?aw Sikorski.

Earlier this week, European Parliament President Jerzy Buzek criticised the U.S. visa policy, which divides EU member states into "better" and "worse" countries according to which ones are included in the Visa Waiver Program (VWP).

Poland is the only member of the Schengen zone that is not included in the VWP. The official criteria to enter the VWP is based on the ratio of rejected visa applications to total visa applications, which must fall under 10 percent. At the moment, the figure is at 13 percent. If the number of visas granted were to increase, Poland would soon be within range of entry into the VWP.
Don't worry Hilary is on the job!

Wait, there is more.

Missiles on Sikorski's Washington Agenda

“Such weapons are placed around Poland’s borders so it would be both in the interest of Poland and NATO to reduce the nuclear arsenal. Reducing tactical weapons would be the next step after reducing strategic weapons,” Sikorski said after the meeting.

Missile reduction, is most certainly not what they are speaking of.

Some additional news has the IMF popping up!

Poland: does Warsaw really want a new IMF credit line?

The question is would the government, including the central banker, that died in the plane crash have wanted a new IMF credit line?

The Polish central bank insists the country has no need to ask the Fund for a replacement for the current facility

The government takes a different view. Earlier this week Dominik Radziwill, deputy finance minister, said an extension of the FCL was called for because of the turmoil caused by the recent downgrades of Greece, Portugal and Spain

Uber thought provoking statement from linked article, I am going to bold it for you to read and contemplate-

The issue had been a sore point between the ministry and the bank, but the death of Slawomir Skrzyepk, the former central bank governor, in the April 10 air crash, has taken some heat out of the argument.

The death of the former central bank governor has taken some heat out of the argument???

Who would benefit from Poland taking on more IMF loans? Not Poland, of course. For there would be austerity measures put in place. Hmmmmm........

I find all this interesting, because the main stream media has been giving us the news for the past couple of weeks that Russia and Poland could get closer and Russia could benefit from this tragedy, etc., etc. Then Sikorski is in the US two-timing with Hilary?
And, the IMF is largely hooked in with the the US branch of the political banking cartel.

And another picture emerges entirely.

It was reported msm that Medvedev attended, so did the leader of the Ukraine and Georgia.

http://www.canada.com/news/Polish+foreign+leaders+attend+Kaczynski+funeral/2921716/story.html

"Although US President Barack Obama and dozens of other dignitaries were unable to attend the elaborate state funeral because of the cloud of volcanic ash covering much of Europe, Medvedev flew in to attend Sunday’s ceremony."

I had commented on how odd that was the medvedev could apparently circumvent the volcanic ash and others couldn't?

another article

http://www.wbj.pl/article-49272-obama-goes-golfing-instead-of-attending-kaczynskis-funeral.html

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych also attended.

The late president's close friend, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, also managed to attend, flying in from the US through Rome - making five stops along the way.
-Mikheil Saakashavili, flies into to attend from the US via rome, but Obama golfs?
What message is sent to Poland by Obamas snub?

Paul Rigby
05-09-2010, 08:58 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8669975.stm


British troops mark VE Day with Red Square parade

British soldiers have marched in Red Square in Moscow for the first time to mark the 65th anniversary of the defeat of Nazi Germany on Sunday.

Seventy six soldiers from 2 Company 1st Battalion Welsh Guards marched beside more than 10,500 Russian troops and others from the US and France.

The multi-million pound parade also included a 1,000-strong military band, tanks, missiles and 127 aircraft.

The UK forces were taking part at the request of the Russian government.

The British detachment also included members of the Royal Air Force band.

BBC Moscow correspondent Richard Galpin said it was a "highly symbolic gesture to demonstrate how far the rivalry of the Cold War has been pushed aside".

Mr Galpin added that no senior British figure was amongst the world leaders who had gathered to watch the parade.

He said it was unclear why the Russian government rejected an offer for Prince Charles to attend.

'Emotional tour'

The commanding officer of the Aldershot-based 1st Battalion Welsh Guards, Lt Col Rupert Thorneloe, was killed during their tour of Afghanistan six months ago.

He is the most senior British army officer to die in action since the Falklands
conflict. Lt Col Thorneloe died alongside Trooper Joshua Hammond when a roadside bomb hit their vehicle.

It was an emotional tour," said Guardsman Thomas James.

"This is the first time I've been on official parade in my tunic since we've been back. It's an honour to be here."

Guardsman Ian Mundy said: "There is a sense of pride to be in this massive parade on Red Square.

"It seems that everyone is interested in us as well and I'm proud to be a part of that."

The Welsh Guards are staying at the Moscow Military Academy as guests of the Russian Army.

Ahead of the event, they have been given a guided tour of the Kremlin, invited to concerts and taken part in a cultural tour of the city via a boat trip up the Moscow River.

Peter Lemkin
05-19-2010, 09:05 AM
Preliminary investigation report - three persons in cockpit before crash were NOT the crew....odd....

Ed Jewett
05-19-2010, 04:08 PM
Preliminary investigation report - three persons in cockpit before crash were NOT the crew....odd....


I haven't kept up with this, but several questions come to mind:

1) Were any boxcutters, red bandannas or copies of the Koran found in the wreckage?

2) Were any cell phone calls made just prior to the crash?

3) Are there any entities crafting sophisticated computer simulations about these events?

4) Is ?????????? ???????? planning a special issue in the near future?

Peter Lemkin
05-19-2010, 05:34 PM
Preliminary investigation report - three persons in cockpit before crash were NOT the crew....odd....


I haven't kept up with this, but several questions come to mind:

1) Were any boxcutters, red bandannas or copies of the Koran found in the wreckage?

2) Were any cell phone calls made just prior to the crash?

3) Are there any entities crafting sophisticated computer simulations about these events?

4) Is ?????????? ???????? planning a special issue in the near future?

update.....and partial answer to your line of questioning....the Russians say the two persons [known, but not identified] were in the cockpit when it crashed. The Poles say they were in the cockpit about 25 minutes before the crash...quite a discrepancy!....

Jan Klimkowski
05-19-2010, 06:41 PM
This "passengers in the cockpit" leak is desperate spin trying to blame the Polish politicians on board for the crash.

Note the byeline to the piece below (my emphasis): "Russian officials identify non-crew member in cockpit of Polish plane, fuelling theory that officials pressured pilots to land"

It is really really desperate stuff worthy of an Alastair Campbell or a Joseph Goebbels...


'Passengers in cockpit' in Polish president's plane crash

Russian officials identify non-crew member in cockpit of Polish plane, fuelling theory that officials pressured pilots to land

Investigators today revealed that there were passengers in the cockpit of the Polish government plane that crashed in Russia last month, fuelling speculation that the disaster may have been partly caused when high-ranking officials on board pressured pilots to land amid thick fog.

Some 96 people died in the crash last month, including the Polish president Lech Kaczinski, his wife and dozens of Polish military and political leaders.

Russian officials said they had identified at least one person who was not a crew member as the plane descended in thick fog towards Smolensk airport. They said there was evidence that another passenger – or possibly passengers – was also present.

"It was established that there were people in the cockpit who were not crew members. The voice of one of them has been identified, while the other, or others, will be identified by the Polish side," said a Russian interstate aviation committee official, Tatyana Anodina.

Russian officials said they had finished transcribing data from flight recorders retrieved from the crash scene. They said the Soviet-designed Tupulov aircraft and its navigation system were working perfectly. But they suggested the crew did not have regular flight training, and may have lacked experience.

It is so far unclear why the pilots ignored warnings from Russian air traffic control and went ahead with an attempt to land at a military airport in western Russia. Poland's investigation envoy Edmund Klich said it was unclear whether the non-crew voices heard in recordings influenced the crew to land despite warnings of bad conditions and poor visibility. The crew had been briefed about the difficult weather conditions and told they could divert to Moscow or Minsk, Russian officials said.

Last month Poland's former prime minister Leszek Miller told the Guardian he thought Kaczynski may have personally contributed to the accident by insisting the pilots land in Smolensk. Kaczynski had been determined to reach Smolensk to attend a memorial service on the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviet secret police executed more than 20,000 Polish officers, Miller said.

"The president so wanted to be there. The pilot knew this and so they accepted the risk and in the process lost everything," the former PM said. Others have suggested that Kaczynski – a bitter critic of the Russian government – may have suspected the advice from air traffic control to divert was a Kremlin ploy designed to ruin the Katyn memorial event.

In August 2008, during Russia's war with Georgia, Kaczynski had a heated row with a pilot flying his plane to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, according to Polish reports. The pilot refused to land and instead diverted the aircraft to neighbouring Azerbaijan. The president told the pilot his refusal would have consequences, allegedly declaring: "If someone decides to be a pilot he cannot be fearful."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/19/polish-plane-crash-passengers-cockpit

Peter Lemkin
05-19-2010, 06:54 PM
This "passengers in the cockpit" leak is desperate spin trying to blame the Polish politicians on board for the crash.

Note the byeline to the piece below (my emphasis): "Russian officials identify non-crew member in cockpit of Polish plane, fuelling theory that officials pressured pilots to land"

It is really reallydesperate stuff worthy of an Alastair Campbell or a Joseph Goebbels...


'Passengers in cockpit' in Polish president's plane crash

Russian officials identify non-crew member in cockpit of Polish plane, fuelling theory that officials pressured pilots to land

Investigators today revealed that there were passengers in the cockpit of the Polish government plane that crashed in Russia last month, fuelling speculation that the disaster may have been partly caused when high-ranking officials on board pressured pilots to land amid thick fog.

Some 96 people died in the crash last month, including the Polish president Lech Kaczinski, his wife and dozens of Polish military and political leaders.

Russian officials said they had identified at least one person who was not a crew member as the plane descended in thick fog towards Smolensk airport. They said there was evidence that another passenger – or possibly passengers – was also present.

"It was established that there were people in the cockpit who were not crew members. The voice of one of them has been identified, while the other, or others, will be identified by the Polish side," said a Russian interstate aviation committee official, Tatyana Anodina.

Russian officials said they had finished transcribing data from flight recorders retrieved from the crash scene. They said the Soviet-designed Tupulov aircraft and its navigation system were working perfectly. But they suggested the crew did not have regular flight training, and may have lacked experience.

It is so far unclear why the pilots ignored warnings from Russian air traffic control and went ahead with an attempt to land at a military airport in western Russia. Poland's investigation envoy Edmund Klich said it was unclear whether the non-crew voices heard in recordings influenced the crew to land despite warnings of bad conditions and poor visibility. The crew had been briefed about the difficult weather conditions and told they could divert to Moscow or Minsk, Russian officials said.

Last month Poland's former prime minister Leszek Miller told the Guardian he thought Kaczynski may have personally contributed to the accident by insisting the pilots land in Smolensk. Kaczynski had been determined to reach Smolensk to attend a memorial service on the 70th anniversary of the Katyn massacre, when Soviet secret police executed more than 20,000 Polish officers, Miller said.

"The president so wanted to be there. The pilot knew this and so they accepted the risk and in the process lost everything," the former PM said. Others have suggested that Kaczynski – a bitter critic of the Russian government – may have suspected the advice from air traffic control to divert was a Kremlin ploy designed to ruin the Katyn memorial event.

In August 2008, during Russia's war with Georgia, Kaczynski had a heated row with a pilot flying his plane to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, according to Polish reports. The pilot refused to land and instead diverted the aircraft to neighbouring Azerbaijan. The president told the pilot his refusal would have consequences, allegedly declaring: "If someone decides to be a pilot he cannot be fearful."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/19/polish-plane-crash-passengers-cockpit

I agree Jan....unless the Ruskies hand over the 'black [really red] boxes to the Poles and let them do the investigation, the truth will never be known....as is [I think] the M.O. of Putin and Co. Even IF some from the passenger area spoke to the pilots, it would NOT explain a crash! I call the whole episode Katyn II - Both were Russian mass murder....:eviltongue:

Carsten Wiethoff
05-20-2010, 02:17 PM
The russian Kommersant newspaper has a more fleshed out version of the events in the cockpit (russian original here: http://kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1372037&NodesID=6) (Google translation (http://translate.google.de/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fkommersant.ru%2Fdoc.aspx% 3FDocsID%3D1372037%26NodesID%3D6&sl=ru&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8))

I quote a partial english translation from http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/415657-time-re-open-polish-presidential-flight-thread-2.html#post5704483:

"According to Russian experts, the main cause of the accident were the mistakes of the Polish pilots who committed them when landing. The first was to start the approach to inaccurate navigation system, a/c in autopilot mode, which was categorically wrong. Set the machine to the beginning of the glide path, for which, according to his calculations, aircraft had to descent, the commander set the autopilot V mode to descent speed of 4 m / s and started landing, assuming that at these parameters chassis touch the ground at the beginning of the strip. Meanwhile, the navigator was checking the altitude of the aircraft by radio altimeter - a device which determines the distance to the ground by radio signal reflected from it. Fatal role in the crash, according to experts, played a rather flat and a long valley with depth of about 40 m, located across the glide path, and the inexperience of the navigator. When the plane was flying above the bottom of the valley and the ground began to go down, navigator panicked and began to constantly tell the commander that they are above the glide path and do not descent. The commander, in turn, trusted his subordinate and increased - doubled - the vertical rate of descent - up to 8 m / sec. Valley under the glide path in the meantime was over, replaced by a prolonged rise of the hill, and the pilots forgot to increase the vertical velocity.

The crew, according to experts, tired as soon as possible to catch a glimpse under the fog to see the ground - but the ground, meanwhile, rushed towards them. To get the crew out of the fast descent, the ATC was shouting the pilots "one hundred first, the horizon!!" (101-flight number, immediately stop the decline and change in level flight .-" editior "), and the system TAWS, was heard in the audio recording of the cockpit with the phrase" Pull up ! ". However, the crew was busy with a visual search of ground and no one has listened. They pulled up only after seeing the birch straight ahead, but it was already too late.

It should be noted that the Polish side does not agree with this position. According to Polish experts, the ATC command "One hundred first horizon!" sounded too late, when the plane had dropped below one hundred meters decision height. Russian experts suggest, however, that the ATC simply could not keep track of the radar screen label due to too great rate of descent of the aircraft."

Helen Reyes
05-21-2010, 04:17 PM
I get the impression on presidential aircraft it's fairly common for "outsiders," i.e., passengers to be popping in and out of the cockpit. Ronald Reagan always made a point of thanking the pilots personally, the Clintons were always fairly rude and pulled stunts like stopping all air traffic while Bill got a haircut on the tarmac, or so I've read.

Dawn Meredith
05-22-2010, 01:06 PM
Zbigniew Brzezinski, the former national security adviser to President Jimmy Carter between 1977 and 1981, believes that "..in this tragic situation there are positive possibilities. The president died during a great pilgrimage for truth, independence and reconciliation. The reaction of Russia following this tragic accident creates a situation favorable for reconciliation.”

"I do not think that this is a game on the part of Russians, this is something sincere. And very new. That is why there exist new, unforeseen possibilities of deeper Polish-Russian reconciliation," Brzezinski told Polish journalists.

For those with Eyes Wide Open, Brzezinski has just given the Grand Game away.

I wonder if the secret protocols for dividing Eurasia have been committed to paper like their 1939 predecessor...
:eviltongue:

While reading through this thread it occurred to me that there have been SOO many plane crashes that were murder that it is nearly impossible for me to believe in any accident "theory"- (ie Dorothy Hunt, Hale Boggs, JFK JR, Paul Wellstone...this list is very long)- but When I saw the above quote I had the same reaction Jan had. Sometimes it's a slip up , ie admission, other times it's a near gloat. Either way here I am leaning heavily against the "accident theory". Business as usual.

Dawn

Magda Hassan
05-22-2010, 01:16 PM
I want to know whose bright idea it was to put all these important people on the one plane?

Dawn Meredith
05-22-2010, 07:18 PM
I want to know whose bright idea it was to put all these important people on the one plane?

I think we are getting a much better picture:

Dawn


http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/russian-cover-up-polish-crash-videographer-assassinated_04212010

"Today we learned that the videographer who shot and uploaded the film to Youtube, a Mr. Adrij Mendiere, was stabbed and taken to a hospital in Kiev on April 15th. Upon his arrival to the hospital he was still alive and placed on life support. The following day, however, it is reported that three individuals entered his room, removed the life support and Mr. Mendiere died."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1278175/Footage-Polish-air-crash-emerges-claiming-Russian-speaking-men-shooting-survivors.html

http://gazbom.blogspot.com/2010/04/guy-who-filmed-shots-fired-at-polish.html

http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2010/04/16/smolensk-runway-lighting-system-tampered-with-says-russian-journalist/

Jan Klimkowski
05-23-2010, 01:11 PM
The enhanced video footage and alleged murder of a journalist involved in circulating it, increases already strong suspicions that this was Katyn Mark 2.

An officially sanctioned slaughter for crude geopolitical purposes.

Peter Presland
05-23-2010, 02:02 PM
The enhanced video footage and alleged murder of a journalist involved in circulating it, increases already strong suspicions that this was Katyn Mark 2.

An officially sanctioned slaughter for crude geopolitical purposes.
It's an odd one though don't you think?

The biggest beneficiaries were undoubtedly the Western Establishment - That's the combined EU and US/UK and an interpretation bolstered by the Brzezinski intervention.

On the face of it, the biggest risks and potential losers were/are Russia.

I certainly don't rule out a Combined Russia/West move being played out here but otherwise - qui bono?

Jan Klimkowski
05-23-2010, 02:22 PM
The enhanced video footage and alleged murder of a journalist involved in circulating it, increases already strong suspicions that this was Katyn Mark 2.

An officially sanctioned slaughter for crude geopolitical purposes.
It's an odd one though don't you think?

The biggest beneficiaries were undoubtedly the Western Establishment - That's the combined EU and US/UK and an interpretation bolstered by the Brzezinski intervention.

On the face of it, the biggest risks and potential losers were/are to Russia.

I certainly don't rule out a Combined Russia/West move being played out here but otherwise - qui bono?

The original Katyn was agreed as part of the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

Ostensibly a Faustian Pact. However, like Mr Drago, I suspect not quite such an impossible marriage.

Britain and America then covered up the clear fact that Katyn was a Soviet massacre for geopolitical reasons. Soviet responsibility was only finally acknowledged by Gorbachev under Glasnost in 1990.

For an MSM source, see here:
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storycode=401810

Katyn was the massacre of the Polish intelligentsia - military and civilian - to cut off the Polish "head", and ensure that a client Polish state with puppet leaders could be established. Whether this was run as a slave colony, by the Nazis, or as a quisling state, by the Soviets, was largely irrelevant. The core message was that a strong, independent, Poland was not to be permitted.

Poland's geographical position has always made it an "open sore" to both German and Russian regional ambitions. What Brzezinski is revealing is that sometimes a very high level agreement can be made between ruling elites - eg Germany, Russia, and, loosely, transnational financial and military interests.

The freshly slaughtered Kaczynski may have been "off message" in many ways: eg over a Russian-German gas pipeline bypassing Poland; over Polish devaluation of the Zloty; over whatever geopolitical deal is being agreed concerning American/NATO missiles on Polish soil as against Russian support for neocon military adventures.

What is abundantly clear is that the Sponsors who create dead Kennedys in highly symbolic crossfires are certainly prepared to offer up a dead Kaczynski in the most resonant location possible.

The message to political leaders is clear: this will be your fate if you take independent action which conflicts with elite interests.

Helen Reyes
05-24-2010, 05:57 PM
On the face of it, the biggest risks and potential losers were/are Russia.

I certainly don't rule out a Combined Russia/West move being played out here but otherwise - qui bono?

It has to be big, really big, on the scale of Molotov-Ribbentrop, but even grander scale.

Poland was a "sore" for Hitler because of Danzig corridor and to Stalin because of the Polish anti-Bolshevik offensive in Ukraine, Belarus and Lithuania. Poland's current "sore" status would involve the things Jan mentioned, but they don't seem to add up to enough in my mind: the Baltic Sea Gazprom pipeline cut the Baltics and Poland out of the supply chain but no one else much cared and Poland couldn't make too much of a stink about it because no one else cared. There might be intrigues involving the (Ras)Putin-Medvedev-Soetoro nuclear deal of which we don't have the details, involving Poland.

Could someone post the direct Youtube links for the "second" film?

Jan Klimkowski
05-24-2010, 06:26 PM
For the record the phrase "Molotov-Ribbentrop" is itself an MSM and official history coverup.

This was not some minor deal between a couple of generals named Molotov and Ribbentrop.

This was a geopolitical contract of massive importance, whose secret protocols carved up eastern Europe and created the philosophical framework for ethnic cleansing and the massacre of entire "classes", for instance the "intelligentsia", of a particular ethnic group.

Namely Poles.

This disgraceful agreement should be called by its meaningful name: the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

Helen Reyes
05-24-2010, 07:18 PM
For the record the phrase "Molotov-Ribbentrop" is itself an MSM and official history coverup.

This was not some minor deal between a couple of generals named Molotov and Ribbentrop.

This was a geopolitical contract of massive importance, whose secret protocols carved up eastern Europe and created the philosophical framework for ethnic cleansing and the massacre of entire "classes", for instance the "intelligentsia", of a particular ethnic group.

Namely Poles.

This disgraceful agreement should be called by its meaningful name: the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

It was called that, or something like that, in Rise and Fall. Shirer was the MSM of his day, of course. How they argued the Treaty of Non-Aggression between Germany and the Soviet Union didn't violate the Anti-Comintern Pact between Italy, Germany and Japan must've been interesting. I guess the post-war consideration in renaming it the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was to make individuals responsible, more than to diminish the enormity of the crimes (except in Uncle Joe's case, of course). Champagne salesman playboy Foreign Minister Ribbentrop was hung at Nuremberg, I guess, while Molotov was banished to Mongolia for a time.

Phil Dragoo
05-24-2010, 08:36 PM
http://www2.nupi.no/cgi-win//Russland/krono.exe?5180

Aleksander Lebed killed in a helicopter crash

Date: 28.04.2002
Domestic/International:
Relation:
Type of event:
Details:
Krasnoyarsk Krai Governor and former Russian presidential candidate Aleksandr Lebed died in a helicopter accident in the morning of 28 April, Russian agencies reported. The helicopter crashed into a power line, killing eight of the 20 passengers on board. At the time, Lebed, 52, was visiting Khakasia, where his younger brother Aleksei is governor. Aleksei Volin, deputy head of the presidential administration, told Ekho Moskvy on 28 April that a detailed investigation of the accident will be conducted by a special commission ordered by President Putin. According to Volin, the investigation will be conducted at the highest level and it is "too early to speak about the reason for the accident." However, according to NTV and Interfax, the reason for the crash was poor visibility due to bad weather. Aleksei Lebed also told Ekho Moskvy that there was heavy fog. The date for gubernatorial elections in Krasnoyarsk Krai will be set by the krai's legislature within 14 days, regions.ru reported on 29 April. Central Election Commission head Aleksandr Veshnyakov said the date will be set no later than within six months and no earlier than 65 days from the moment the head of the krai left his post. Veshnyakov predicted that the election will be "difficult," and that "one can already predict a fierce battle among the candidates for votes." According to regions.ru on 28 April, local political analysts believed that Lebed had little chance of being re-elected in elections that were expected to take place in May 2003. And in the new race, the interests of Russian Aluminum and Norilsk Nickel will play a major role. Yabloko Deputy Aleksei Arbatov said Lebed's death will destabilize Krasnoyarsk and "will lead to the full criminalization of the situation in the region," ntvru.com reported. According to Arbatov, the run-up to the election of the next governor will be particularly tense as "passions will boil over" and huge sums of money will be present.
First Deputy Governor Nikolai Ashlapov has become acting governor, regions.ru reported on 28 April. Ashlapov, according to the website, is a former representative of Russian Aluminum in Krasnoyarsk, and was only appointed first deputy governor in early February of this year.

Phil's footnote: Inspector Putin is on the case and a stunning solution is expected at every hour. Preliminary reports indicate nothing more sophisticated than poor visibility, bad weather, fog. And now back to the latest Russian arms sensation, the Club-K.

Jan Klimkowski
05-28-2010, 08:51 PM
The IMF and World Bank are seeking to put a known collaborator in charge of the Polish economy.

The dials on Poland's very own IMF/World Bank Economic Electroshock machine will be turned up to 11 by a Chicago Boy.


WASHINGTON (MNI) - Former Poland prime minister Marek Belka will leave his current post at the International Monetary Fund to take over the reins of the nation's central bank, the IMF confirmed Thursday.

"We can confirm that Marek Belka, director of the IMF's European Department, has been nominated by Poland's acting President for the position of Governor of the Central Bank of Poland, and that Mr. Belka has accepted the nomination," an IMF spokeswoman said in a statement.

"Consistent with IMF procedures, Mr. Belka will relinquish his responsibilities as Director of the European Department immediately."

Acting President Bronislaw Komorowski nominated Belka. Komorowski is the parliament speaker who stepped in as acting president after the April 10 plane crash in Russia that killed President Lech Kaczynski and 95 others, including central bank governor Slawomir Skrzypek.

The nomination requires ratification by the lower house of parliament, which will vote on it after it convenes on June 9, the parliament press office said, according to press reports.

Belka served as Poland's prime minister from 2004 to 2005, as deputy prime minister in 1997, and as finance minister from 2001 to 2002. Prior to that, Belka served as chief economic adviser to the president from 1996-97 and 1998-2001.

http://imarketnews.com/node/14116

For a top level intro on Belka's bought and paid for status, see wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek_Belka

Magda Hassan
05-29-2010, 04:47 AM
http://www.deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=81

Peter Lemkin
08-14-2010, 05:49 PM
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/832.html

video some minutes after crash...with strange men seen around the plane and shooting persons...persons saying don't shoot...and now the filmmaker is reportedly dead.......:questionmark:

Magda Hassan
08-15-2010, 02:18 AM
We have covered this earlier in the thread. I have reservations about it. I think the noises are aerosol cans and other bits and pieces exploding. Such things are common enough in fires. Some one translated the voices for me and they were not saying anything about 'shooting' etc just "OMG!" and "better get out of here" sort of things. I have heard the film maker is dead but I have no idea if that it true or that it actually is the film maker. If you go back in this thread you will find the contemporary coverage.

Peter Lemkin
08-15-2010, 04:55 AM
We have covered this earlier in the thread. I have reservations about it. I think the noises are aerosol cans and other bits and pieces exploding. Such things are common enough in fires. Some one translated the voices for me and they were not saying anything about 'shooting' etc just "OMG!" and "better get out of here" sort of things. I have heard the film maker is dead but I have no idea if that it true or that it actually is the film maker. If you go back in this thread you will find the contemporary coverage.

Thanks for the clarification.....still odd that someone tried to spin the film.....

Peter Lemkin
01-31-2012, 07:49 PM
The Failed Suicide of a Polish Prosecutor: Smolensk, Conspiracies, CIA and FBI (Voice of Russia)
27th January 2012

Background: “Video: Polish Prosecutor Mikolaj Przybyl Shoots Himself in the Head” – http://www.opposingviews.com/i/society/guns/video-polish-prosecutor-mikolaj-przybyl-shoots-himself-head

By Babich Dmitry

The Voice of Russia/January 11, 2012

The seemingly bizarre case of the Polish military prosecutor, Mikolaj Przybyl, who made a failed assassination attempt on Monday, shooting himself in the head during a break in a press conference, is no laughing matter. In fact, it may lead to a Russia-related political crisis in Poland.

The prosecutor, whose life is no longer in danger thanks to the efforts of doctors in the Polish city of Poznan, had a long story to tell the journalists. This story has lots of links to Russophobic political forces in Poland, their attempts to disrupt Russo-Polish relations and the activities of American special services in Poland. The irony of the situation is that the incident is used politically by the leaders of the conservative opposition party Law and Justice, whom Przybyl in fact accused of trying to ruin Russo-Polish relations playing media games around the tragic crash of the Polish presidential jet in April 2010 in the Russian city of Smolensk. The Law and Justice faction in the Polish parliament (Sejm) is now demanding an extraordinary session to discuss the matter and calls for the resignation of Przybyl’s boss, the Polish military prosecutor general, accusing him of “seeing Russia, and not the United States, as a friend of Poland.”

What happened that day?

Here is the gist of what happened on Monday in the office of the deputy chief military prosecutor for Poznan region, colonel Mikolaj Przybyl. Having summoned the journalists to his office, the colonel first defended against the media attacks his colleagues the military prosecutors. The investigators, including colonel Przybyl himself, were accused by the rightist newspapers in Poland of illegally obtaining the texts of SMS messages of two journalists, Maciej Duda from TVN 24 and Cezary Gmyza from the daily Rzeczpospolita.

Having finished reading a text prepared in advance, Przybyl asked the journalists to leave the room for a minute, saying he needed a minute of rest. He even urged them to leave their personal belongings and cameras in place. With the journalists gone, colonel Przybyl turned his back to the window, put his pistol next to his mouth and shot. Luckily, the bullet only slightly damaged his facial bones and his cheek, leaving the colonel unconscious, but alive.

The journalists, who rushed into the room, found the colonel lying in a pool of blood. Two journalists tried to help the poor officer, while cameramen rushed to their cameras filming the bloody scene (they were later lambasted by their media colleagues for being so insensitive). Upon being brought to the hospital, the colonel said he indeed wanted to commit suicide, but his hand trembled, when he heard somebody knocking on the door. He said he saw suicide as a way to “protect the honor of people whom he knew and who did some honest work.”

What western media ignored

The Western media in fact ignored the case, concentrating on the seemingly internal issue of a conflict between the office of the Polish prosecutor general and the chief military prosecutor, Krzysztof Parulski, whom Przybyl said he wanted to protect from unfounded accusations by his Monday action. But even a brief glance at the text that Przybyl read to the journalists before asking them to leave is enough to see that the case indeed had to do with international politics, with the US special services playing a rather unseemly role in it. The text was published by Gazeta Wyborcza daily.

In that text, Przybyl told the journalists that he was asked to investigate the leaks that occurred in the Polish prosecutor’s office in 2010-2011. The leaks included “information confidentially passed by the prosecutors of Russian Federation to Polish prosecutors” on the investigation in Russia of the Smolensk plane crash of April 2010, in which Polish president Lech Kaczynski and 95 other people got killed during a botched landing attempt by the presidential TU-154.

“The fact that this information got into the hands of the media made our cooperation difficult and led to delays in this very important investigation,” explained Przybyl on camera minutes before trying to end his life.

An internal investigation has revealed that the information was passed to journalists and also to American secret agents by Marek Pasionek, a prosecutor having access to the materials of the Polish Chief Military Prosecutor’s office. The appointment of this person had been in fact forced on the military prosecutor’s office by Zbigniew Ziobro, the former Polish minister of justice in the government of Law and Justice party, which held total power in Poland between 2005 and 2007, under president Lech Kaczynski and his twin brother, prime-minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski.

Obviously, passing the information to the media, Marek Pasionek played the political game of the Law and Justice party (known in Poland under its Polish abbreviation of PiS). Losing elections to the liberal presidential candidate Bronislaw Komorowski, PiS’s leader Jaroslaw Kaczynski in 2010 made conspiracy theories around his brother’s death the center of his electoral campaign. The main targets of these conspiracy theories were Russian authorities (who allegedly deliberately brought about the disaster) and the Polish liberal politicians, Bronislaw Komorowski and prime-minister Donald Tusk (who allegedly “sent the president to his death” refusing to support his unauthorized visit to the site of the 1940 massacre by Stalin of Polish officers in Katyn, a place in the woods near Smolensk).

Obviously, Pasionek’s presenting the secret investigation materials to the media under a certain pro-Kaczynski angle helped Kaczynski make his conspiracy theories more plausible.

What America is allowed to do, Russia isn’t

Where Pasionek definitely trespassed the boundaries of law and simple morality was his meeting with CIA and FBI agents from the American embassy in Warsaw. The details of this meeting were first revealed in a publication in the liberal Gazeta Wyborcza daily in June 2011. Having learned about this meeting of his formal subordinate, Poland’s chief military prosecutor Krzysztof Parulski suspended Pasionek of his duties and ordered him not to come to work until further notice. An investigation was started, in which Przybyl took part.

“I view the actions of this prosecutor [Pasionek] as being unprofessional and breaching the existing regulations,” Przybyl said before trying to commit suicide. In his speech, Przybyl also stressed that accusations of the pro-Kaczynski press against Parulski, who was called “a fink” by TVN24 were in fact immoral. When a journalist of TVN24, Maciej Duda, in a question to a spokesman of the Chief Military Prosecutor referred to secret materials that he had obtained from Pasionek and even called the latter by name, the military prosecutors asked for permission to check Duda’s SMS messages. Later this action was presented in the press as “eavesdropping on journalists.”

The investigation against Pasionek was stopped in December 2011, and this was the reason for Przybyl’s anger and despair.

Now Jaroslaw Kaczynski and his party are presenting Pasionek, former deputy head of a department in Kaczynski’s government, as “an honest person” and say they see nothing bad in his contacts with special services of an “ally,” the United States. It is worth mentioning that during the investigation of the Smolensk disaster PiS pushed for involving American experts in the investigation, even though the United States had nothing to do with the disaster and the matter was a strictly Russo-Polish one. As for Przybyl, Jaroslaw Kaczynski saw something suspicious in his being worried about attempts to ruin Russo-Polish relations by conspiracy theories.

“Obviously for him Russia is a friend and the United States isn’t,” the Polish PAP news agency quotes Kaczynski as saying.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2012/01/11/63654189.html

Jan Klimkowski
01-31-2012, 08:00 PM
Hi Peter - yes, I saw reports of this when it happened.

The piece above is, of course, an officially sanctioned Russian version of this "suicide attempt" which is linked to the plane crash which killed politicians and others on their way to pay their respects at the Soviet war crime of Katyn.