PDA

View Full Version : Doug Valentine reporting



Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 02:21 PM
I'm told by Peter that some people at DPF have some questions for me, or would like to hear my opinion on some subjects. I am delighted to try to help!

David Guyatt
01-12-2011, 03:04 PM
Welcome Doug.

I'm not one of those many who do have questions for you, but I am looking forward to reading everything that transpires.

Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 03:15 PM
i'm just learning how to use this blog, so if you can point me in the right direction, that would be very helpful, I think someone asked something at about the Wikileaks DEA stuff, but I don't see a forum page for that....

Charles Drago
01-12-2011, 03:30 PM
Welcome, Mr. Valentine.

I have a number of questions and topics for discussion to propose.

My work benefited greatly from your relatively brief yet important treatment of New England crime boss Raymond Patriarca in The Strength of the Pack. I'm wondering if your research into Patriarca's deep political connections in the '60s and '70s uncovered information related to the following:

-- Pre-1963 interactions between RP and Johnny Rosselli.

-- Utilization of "Pro Lerner and "Red" (or "Planner") Kelly in anti-Castro operations.

-- Deep political significance, if any, of the so-called "bonded vault" heist.

-- The RP-Irving "Ash" Resnick relationship, particularly as it might have applied to Las Vegas casino skimming and drug trafficking.

On behalf of all my co-owners of DPF, may I state publicly just how pleased we are that you've chosen to participate.

Charles Drago

David Guyatt
01-12-2011, 03:38 PM
The search function is not working well at present due to this being the new version software and it came with lots of tweeks required.

There are two or three Wikileaks threads on the forum, tucked away in different folders. The largest one is HERE (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5101-Will-WikiLeaks-unravel-the-American-secret-government). It would probably be best to go to the last page and work back as it's into its 53rd page at present. The second largest is located in the Black Operations folder HERE (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?3401-US-Intell-planned-to-destroy-Wikileaks/page36). The same advice applies as this thread now runs to 36 pages. I think it is this thread with the drugs question.

Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 03:52 PM
Hi Charles,

Many thanks for the warm welcome. Alas, I can't help you with your specific questions. I didn't know that Patriarca knew Rosselli, though, if I remember, Rosselli's real name was F Sacco and he was from Boston. I know nothing about RP and Rosselli in 1963. I was told that Patriarca for a period of time played the official role of referee in Mafia disputes. That may be later. Patriarca figured in the Harrelson-Wood case, as did his butttonman Sal Caruana. Etc.

Don't know Red Kelly, and must admit up front, I don't know many details about the JFK case. I read I Was Castro's Prisoner by John M(something) which was very revealing and which I recommend. Who was Kelly?

I don't think I know of the "bonded vault" case either.

And I don't know about Resnick, though I'm pretty sure Jimmy Chagra laundered his drug money in vegas and Chagra moved drugs to Patriarca's clan in in Boston and worked with his people in Florida, maybe Tennessee too (I think) I guess Texas too.

Sorry

Keith Millea
01-12-2011, 04:43 PM
Welcome Douglas,

We also have a thread concerning the Phoenix program/My Lai.I have some inquiries that I would like to ask you about these subjects.I think it would be good to wait a bit for others to add their welcome.

Again thanks for your participation on DPF.

David Guyatt
01-12-2011, 04:46 PM
Keith, I think posing questions to Doug on Phoenix and My Lai would be a fascinating way to begin.

Others can queue their turn. :cool:

David Guyatt
01-12-2011, 04:51 PM
I'm told by Peter that some people at DPF have some questions for me, or would like to hear my opinion on some subjects. I am delighted to try to help!

Doug, this is the thread in question - 2 pages only. Phew!

Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 04:52 PM
Hi Keith,

Thanks for the welcome. I'm going to have some tea now, so I'll be here for a while, if you have a question.

Charles Drago
01-12-2011, 04:54 PM
Hi Charles,

Many thanks for the warm welcome. Alas, I can't help you with your specific questions. I didn't know that Patriarca knew Rosselli, though, if I remember, Rosselli's real name was F Sacco and he was from Boston. I know nothing about RP and Rosselli in 1963. I was told that Patriarca for a period of time played the official role of referee in Mafia disputes. That may be later. Patriarca figured in the Harrelson-Wood case, as did his butttonman Sal Caruana. Etc.

Don't know Red Kelly, and must admit up front, I don't know many details about the JFK case. I read I Was Castro's Prisoner by John M(something) which was very revealing and which I recommend. Who was Kelly?

I don't think I know of the "bonded vault" case either.

And I don't know about Resnick, though I'm pretty sure Jimmy Chagra laundered his drug money in vegas and Chagra moved drugs to Patriarca's clan in in Boston and worked with his people in Florida, maybe Tennessee too (I think) I guess Texas too.

Sorry

No apology necessary.

I'm sorry to be circumspect now, but certain projects are at critical stages of research.

Lerner and Kelly were RP associates -- the former was muscle, the latter a gifted time-motion analyst (although God knows that term wasn't applied to him by his peers). It is alleged that Rosselli asked RP for their services. I tend to doubt this story, but inquiries continue.

On August 14, 1975, the Hudson Fur Storage (aka Bonded Vault) company's commercial safe deposit boxes were raided by RP-connected thieves. The back stories conflict, a recent Providence TV station's "documentary" on the event was superficial, and strong leads continue to indicate a deep politics-related aspect to the event.

In any case, thanks for your very prompt response. If we may be of assistance to you in your current and future projects, please don't hesitate to ask.

Best,

Charles

Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 05:07 PM
I'm glad to help if I can, and appreciate your offer, that's very kind. And thanks for filling me in on those people and events.

I had a keen interest in the 1978 Blackfriar's Massacre case, which involved Patriarca people, and the big marijuana bust at Foley's Cove, which was probably connected - all this pertained to the Woods-Harrelson investigation and the Chagras. People are mentioning Harrelson's assassination of Judge Wood while talking about the federal judge killed Sunday in Tucson...

Peter Lemkin
01-12-2011, 05:12 PM
Doug, the DEA Cables thread is HERE (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5680-Very-important-wikileak-cables-on-the-dea!!!!!) I'm sure most here would very much like to hear what your 'take' is on the information contained within them. There are other threads on your work and books. I'll locate them in a few minutes....one has to use an external search engine, like google.

Here is another on your piece re: Bruce Lawler (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5960-From-Vietnam-s-Pheonix-Program-to-Homeland-Security.......) I'd be interested for you to 'update' what he is doing now and any changes/additions/corrections you'd make if you were writing this article or one like it now.

There are others, but I'll find them in a bit......sorry the internal search engine is not working temporarily.

Keith Millea
01-12-2011, 05:27 PM
Doug

I need to eat breakfast and start my day off.The thread about My Lai can be found HERE (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/...hoenix-Program).I'm thinking that we should use that thread instead of filling up this one with a multitude of subjects.

Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 05:33 PM
Hi Peter,

I was able to access the Lawlor article. Haven't read that in 7 + years. I don't feel the need to edit it. I don't know what Lawlor is up to now.

I could not get to the Wikileaks Drug page, egads, the link didn't work.

Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 05:35 PM
ok Keith, sounds good, though that link said Error 404 can't find page.

Jan Klimkowski
01-12-2011, 06:06 PM
Doug - I echo the hearty welcome to DPF.

The My Lai thread is here (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?718-My-Lai-Phoenix-Program)

Another thread on the current incarnations of Phoenix is here (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5960-From-Vietnam-s-Pheonix-Program-to-Homeland-Security.......)

There is plenty more discussion of your work and its implications across DPF.

I see Gladio and Phoenix as the ugly sisters of the second half of the C20th, whose mutated offspring curse us still today.

However, the truth about Gladio and Phoenix continues to be suppressed, or ignored.

Since you are the primary chronicler of Phoenix, we are delighted to see you here.

Peter Lemkin
01-12-2011, 06:12 PM
Sorry Doug, yes that link to the DEA cables is not correct. Found it and corrected above...but don't have to go there. Press your mouse button HERE! (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?5680-Very-important-wikileak-cables-on-the-dea!!!!!)

Sorry!:pullhair: [If nothing else, this Forum has the best 'smileys'....and some very sharp people. You are most welcome here. Will hunt for the rest of the materials related to your work soon. :captain:

Jan Klimkowski
01-12-2011, 06:34 PM
The My Lai thread grew out of this one about John Yoo (http://deeppoliticsforum.com/forums/showthread.php?3253-John-Yoo-speaks)

Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 07:25 PM
Many thanks, Jan, those links worked.

I look forward to many interesting discussions.

Jan Klimkowski
01-12-2011, 08:34 PM
Doug - would you say that My Lai grew out of the philosophy and culture of the Phoenix Program?

Or that it was a planned Phoenix operation?

Or that such atrocities happen in many wars where soldiers are grieving at fallen comrades, and have been subjected to propaganda which frames the enemy as less than human?

Douglas Valentine
01-12-2011, 09:00 PM
Robert Ramsdell, the CIA Phoenix advisor in Quang Ngai Province, told task Force Barker that only VCI would be there that day, and a team of US MI guys and GVN special police went in to interrogate people, I believe right after or during the massacre.

It's important to differentiate the Phoenix concept from the Phoenix program.

Both target civilians.

the Phoenix Program had few forces of its own, just the advisors, but they could call upon troops - like Task Force Barker - to "block" off nationalist forces so the MI guys and Viet special police could do their thing.

And that's what happened.

Keith Millea
01-12-2011, 09:23 PM
Sorry Doug,I was working on this at the My Lai thread,and I need to bring it here.I see that Jan has kind of started out with some similar questions,but mine is more about the Americal Division and it's soldiers.Because,for me that is where the buck stops,the actual shooters.


A question for Doug Valentine

Doug,
First let me explain that I never heard of the Phoenix Program until I joined this forum.That may seem strange because I'm actually a Vietnam Veteran.If you have read my other posts in this thread,you can get an idea of my feelings about My Lai,and the use of Phoenix in that operation.

I guess I question that the massacre at My Lai was perpetrated on purpose.I can't see that.I can't see a secret CIA operation (Phoenix),risking being exposed for the mass murder of 500 women and children.I gather that most Phoenix ops were nightime snatches,or just kill.But,My Lai was different.There was involvement by hundreds of soldiers,along with unit photographers.Surely,NOBODY would want this kind of horror to be archived.


My argument though,is blunted by said orders in this thread to "kill everything in the village".So,there is my perplexity.I cannot for the life of me understand how you can get an Army unit,which is made up of 30%-40%(?) draftees to actually participate in this kind of mass murder.I'm not naive to think that atrocities didn't happen.I know they did.


Doug,I'm hoping you can elaborate more about the use of Phoenix at My Lai,as I and the other soldiers who I have talked to from my unit have come to the conclusion that the Americal Division was a completely undisciplined outfit,with some pretty worthless officers.There is NO WAY that this could have happened in the very professional and disciplined unit that I was lucky enough to find myself in.It is just unthinkable,but we are all stained from it.

Question:

What could have made the Americal Division troopers participate in this slaughter?Any good soldier would have refused,and squealed their heads off.

Jan Klimkowski
01-12-2011, 09:24 PM
Robert Ramsdell, the CIA Phoenix advisor in Quang Ngai Province, told task Force Barker that only VCI would be there that day, and a team of US MI guys and GVN special police went in to interrogate people, I believe right after or during the massacre.

It's important to differentiate the Phoenix concept from the Phoenix program.

Both target civilians.

the Phoenix Program had few forces of its own, just the advisors, but they could call upon troops - like Task Force Barker - to "block" off nationalist forces so the MI guys and Viet special police could do their thing.

And that's what happened.

Please can you expand a little on the difference between the Phoenix Program and the Phoenix concept?

Investigation of Operation Gladio (in its broadest sense) exposes an original programme of "stay behind" guerrilla cadres or cells, with access to weapons caches, conceived (according to the official narrative) as an underground army designed to "rise up" after (Soviet) communist invasion.

However, the practice and use made of Gladio cells was very different.

The philosophy of Gladio, as revealed in its actions, was one of atrocities against civilians, such as the Bologna railway station bombing, committed by a Gladio cell (Nuclei Armati Rivoluzionari) but designed to be blamed on the opposition (in this case the Red Brigades).

Ultimately, the Gladio philosophy is the Strategy of Tension, the creation of fear amongst the civliian population achieved through false flag atrocities, designed to make the population welcome loss of freedom and embrace a police state.

Gladio is all about targeting, and breaking the will of, civilians.

In your answer, you suggest that the heart of Phoenix is also about targeting civilians.