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Peter Lemkin
06-10-2011, 05:18 AM
JUAN GONZALEZ: We end today’s show looking at Area 51, one of the U.S. government’s most closely held secrets. Located some 80 miles north of Las Vegas, Area 51 is a secret U.S. military base that was built in the 1950s to test hi-tech spy and war planes, including the U-2, the stealth bomber and surveillance drones, including the RQ-170 Sentinel, which was recently used in the raid on Osama bin Laden’s compound. Located inside the Nevada Test and Training Range, Area 51 also played a key role in nuclear weapons tests. In addition, Area 51 has been the center of many conspiracy theories about UFOs.

For decades, the government denied Area 51 even existed, but in recent years many CIA and military documents have been declassified. A new book has just been released based on these documents as well as interviews with dozens of men who lived and worked at the secret site.
The book is titled Area 51: An Uncensored History of America’s Top Secret Military Base.

AMY GOODMAN: In a moment we’ll be joined by the book’s author, Annie Jacobsen, but first we’ll turn to a short film produced by the CIA in the mid-’50s about Area 51 at the time the secret site was referred to by the name "Watertown."

CIA FILM: This is the desert of western Nevada, already well known for its nuclear tests by the Atomic Energy Commission here at Yucca Flat. Adjoining this AEC test site is an active aerial gunnery range. Early in 1955, by presidential order, 60 square miles of this prohibited area were set aside for a special purpose. There’s a narrow air corridor to reach this spot on the map. Air charts order "closed to all personnel and aircraft, except on orders from the chief of staff, U.S. Air Force." The name of this isolated spot in Nevada is Watertown. And its very isolation is of the greatest importance.

The specialists that come off this transport are handpicked. They are checked every time they arrive at Watertown. Overall security in this area is the highest yet to be maintained in this country, even higher than that of the Manhattan Project. Selection of Watertown was dictated by several unique considerations. The area is isolated from prying eyes by the AEC range, with lethal reminders of past atomic explosions. AEC guards maintain regular patrol. Supplies destined for Watertown channel into the area through regular AEC routes.

Here at Watertown, men can develop almost any project and still keep its very existence under wraps. It was here that this new aircraft was assembled and flown for the first time, just eight months after the contract was let. It was here that the world’s jet altitude record was broken and broken again on every high flight. Because she goes so high and so far, the men who work on her have named her "The Angel," though on the books she’s called the U-2.

AMY GOODMAN: A once-secret CIA film looking at the site now known as Area 51. To talk more about Area 51, we’re joined by Annie Jacobsen, investigative reporter at the Los Angeles Times Magazine, author of the new book Area 51: An Uncensored History of America’s Top Secret Military Base.

Annie Jacobsen, why did you take Area 51 on? Talk about how you got access to information that so few people have?

ANNIE JACOBSEN: Well, for me, it started in 2007 at a Christmas dinner party. I was seated next to a then-88-year-old scientist, who leaned over to me and said, "Boy, have I got a story for you." That scientist was Edward Lovick, who developed stealth technology for the CIA going back to when Eisenhower was president. And the reason that he could share that information with me in 2007 was because it had just been declassified by the CIA after all those decades.

AMY GOODMAN: So, it’s the most famous military installation in the world, yet it doesn’t exist officially. Located 75 miles north of Las Vegas, it’s never been acknowledged by the U.S. government. Why?

ANNIE JACOBSEN: Well, that was certainly one of the things that piqued my interest as an investigative reporter. After Lovick shared with me that this development of stealth occurred at Area 51—many of the scientists call it Groom Lake, because it takes place at a flat, dry lake bed out there at Area 51—I looked into the CIA declassified documents, and I was intrigued by the fact that in all of those documents the name Area 51 is always blacked out or redacted. And I wrote to the assistant secretary of defense requesting a tour of the facility. And when they wrote back to me, not only did they say they could not help me, but they put my request in quotes as if to say, "That’s not even part of our lexicon. We don’t even touch that issue," which they don’t. And they still don’t today.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Well, interestingly, of course, the legend of Area 51 has existed for decades. And of course, that famous science fiction film, Independence Day, when the president says, "Oh, no, no, that’s a conspiracy theory," then the CIA director says, "Well, Mr. President, not exactly," as if to say the president didn’t even know it existed. You document that many presidents didn’t know. Could you talk about that?

ANNIE JACOBSEN: That’s right. Well, the base, because everything that happens at Area 51, when it is happening, is classified top secret, my book is very much about secrets. And as a very scant few number of programs have been declassified over the years, people have been able to talk about them, not including the context of Area 51. And as I was working with my 74 sources who I use in the book, all of whom I name except for one, I learned this very interesting compartmentalization that goes on when working on top-secret programs and operations, and that’s called the "need to know," which is so famously referenced in that fictional film, Independence Day. And it’s the idea that one man in a cubicle out at Area 51 working on, let’s say, radar would not know what his colleague is working on the other side of the cubicle in, say, telemetry. And likewise, the pilots who are going to eventually fly these spy planes don’t have any idea, really, what the specs are on the plane, much more than how it works in terms of flight and also maybe the coordinates where they’re going to fly to. But that ensures a kind of secrecy that keeps the programs unknown and what’s called "black."

And at the end of the day, one of the major threads of my book touches upon this issue of, like, what exactly is a good thing about these "need to know" projects? What is keeping America safe and secure and really enhances our national security? And what goes over into the area of what I would call a rogue program? And because of the nature of black operations, hidden from Congress, hidden from the people, I find these are really important issues that should be discussed by Americans. And I believe that my book introduces that discussion, brings it to the table.

AMY GOODMAN: Annie Jacobsen, why did the U.S. government choose this area of Nevada? I mean, we’re talking about a vast area, over 4,500 square miles. It’s, what, five times the size of Rhode Island? Why Nevada? And what have they been doing there, from the beginning?

ANNIE JACOBSEN: One of the first most fascinating things I discovered about Area 51, mindful of all the conspiracies about it, was one of the true facts of the base is that it was set up in 1951 by President Truman to explode nuclear weapons into the atmosphere. And we did explode over 100 mushroom clouds in all out there in the desert in a partition of that greater area that the Department of Defense and the Atomic Energy Commission were running. That smaller partition was called the Nevada Test Site. It’s divided up into quadrants—Area 1, Area 9, Area 30. And Area 51 sits just outside that Nevada Test Site where the atomic bombs were going off. So, it was an interesting way to kind of put the CIA over the fence from where the Atomic Energy Commission was practicing how to have a nuclear war with the Soviets, if it came to that. Meanwhile, just over the fence, at Area 51, the CIA was working to try to prevent nuclear war by developing these spy planes that could go peer over the fence, so to speak, over the Iron Curtain from 13 miles up. That’s how high the U-2 flew. So it’s this strange paradox out there in the desert, you know, practicing how to have a nuclear war, but then also practicing how to prevent one. And that still goes on today.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And how were you able to—you talked to dozens of former workers there, many of them now in their eighties or older. How did you—were able to get to them and get them to open up to you?

ANNIE JACOBSEN: Well, that’s the process of being an investigative journalist that I enjoy most. Sitting with Lovick, the physicist who invented stealth technology, we were speaking about the U-2, and I said, “My goodness, I want to know more about this. How did it fly? How did it work?” He referred me to Bob Murphy, who was the early mechanic on the U-2 out there in 1955. I talked to Bob Murphy. He said, “Well, you really want to talk to Ray Goudey." He was the first Lockheed test pilot to take an airplane up over 65,000 feet. You hear about that in that CIA film you played. You know, Ray Goudey started to tell me what it was like to fly at that height, being over Area 51 in Nevada, looking out the cockpit of the plane, and being able to see the Pacific Ocean.

And it was things like that, hearing about this secret military base from these cold warriors who were there, who are a fraternity of men, as it turned out, known among themselves, these legendary spies and engineers and scientists who were all working together in what they absolutely believed was keeping America safe, and arguably was, in many regards. And they began to tell me their stories one by one, and that is how I was able to piece together this puzzle that is Area 51. It’s a real American enigma. It’s a riddle. You hear about that in the public consciousness. People are so convinced that it’s linked up to all these conspiracies. And at the same time, what it really is is a place where the government set up a base to push science and technology farther and faster than any other nation in the world could.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And, of course, you deal as well in some of the more controversial aspects of this whole issue of alien research or landings or crashes of aliens. Could you talk about that in the final chapter, where you, it appears, debunk some of those theories, but at the same time raise a totally new concept of what actually happened there?

ANNIE JACOBSEN: Yes. Well, when I began researching and reporting the book, I was fascinated by these conspiracy theories. There’s three main conspiracy theories that link up to Area 51. There’s this idea that the lunar landing was a—was a fake and that it was filmed out at Area 51, that the Apollo astronauts never went to the moon. Many conspiracy theorists believe that it’s tied to Area 51. Another one is this idea that there’s all these underground tunnels and chambers out at Area 51 that somehow link up to other military bases across the country. Conspiracy theorists will tell you that, as well. And the third and most well known is this idea that extraterrestrial craft and alien pilots captured by the government somehow wind up at Area 51 and are reverse-engineered there.

And in researching, I found a kernel of truth to all of these. Of course, there are tunnels and chambers under not Area 51, but that Nevada Test Site, the Areas 9, 10, 30. One tunnel chamber, I was able to research, under Area 30 goes down 4,500 feet. And that’s the place where the government was—after the Test Ban Treaty of 1963, the government exploded many nuclear weapons underground, and they did them in these tunnels and chambers. Of course, the moon landing, one of the threads of conspiracy from that comes from the fact that there are all these atomic craters out there from the nuclear explosions. I went on a tour of the facility with two former weapons engineers, one of whom, named Ernie Williams, actually was the tour guide for the Apollo astronauts, who were sent out there by NASA to train what it would be like to walk on the moon, because the geography of the atomic crater is very much like the lunar landscape. And then the third one that was fascinating to me was this idea of reverse-engineering alien spacecraft. Many of the engineers I interviewed worked on reverse-engineering technology. It’s a hallmark of Area 51. We reversed, for example, a MiG fighter jet that was captured by the Mossad in the late ’60s and was traded with the CIA. And at Area 51, it was taken apart, reverse-engineered and then flown.

And in working with all of these different engineers who had Q clearances and top-secret clearances, one of them revealed to me something that was rather shocking, and it was certainly not something I expected. And that was that the supposed myth of Roswell actually does also have a kernel of truth, a very serious thread of truth. And according to this source, who I write about in the last seven pages of my book, it was actually not a flying disc from Mars, but rather was from the Soviet Union and was meant to be a hoax, à la The War of the Worlds, something Stalin himself was familiar with and was rather obsessed with, according to this source, in terms of the ability to kind of make Americans feel panic. And so, what my source told me was that he was one of the five engineers who worked to reverse-engineer this flying disc out at Area 51. And that, of course, has caused much controversy in the press. Even the conspiracy theorists are upset with me. I received a letter from a group of them in England saying, you know, “Even we don’t believe you.” So it’s obviously a hot-button topic. But more than anything, I stand by the veracity of this source who told me this, because he worked out there in the desert for—across three decades working for the Atomic Energy Commission on many top-secret projects, and he was certainly in place and position to work on the project that he said he did.

AMY GOODMAN: Annie Jacobsen, they had to close Area 51 for a time as a result of nuclear experiments. Can you explain what happened?

ANNIE JACOBSEN: Yes, and I tell that story through the eyes of one of the security guards who worked out there. His name is Richard Mingus. He was a security guard at Area 51 by day, this elite group of just four or five men at a time that watched over the U-2 spy plane being developed. And by night, he would moonlight on some of the nuclear weapons tests that were happening next door. And one of the most astonishing tests to me was something called Project 57. And that was the idea—the Defense Department and the Atomic Energy Commission in 1957 wanted to know what would happen if one of their bombers carrying a nuclear weapon were to crash on American soil. Would a mushroom cloud explode, or would something else happen? And so they performed this test out there, which in essence is a dirty bomb test. And yes, indeed, what happened was plutonium was disbursed over 895 acres, just a little bit north of Groom Lake at Area 51. And as we know, plutonium has a half-life of 24,000 years. So, there was Richard Mingus, keeping watch over this mock dirty bomb test. That land was contaminated, and it is also still contaminated today, despite ongoing efforts to clean it up.

AMY GOODMAN: How is Area 51 used today, Annie Jacobsen?

ANNIE JACOBSEN: Well, everything that I write about today that’s going on there is speculative, because it’s all still classified top secret. What is assumed and known among sources who used to be there is that the Predator and the Reaper drones have been flown out there. The government is testing new espionage platforms. And what I found to be fascinating, if you look at the whole history of Area 51, it began with, as I said earlier, you know, the Atomic Energy Commission and the Department of Defense on one side of the fence practicing how to have a war, and the CIA on the other side of the fence working as eyes in the sky, it’s called, when you are able to spy on the enemy, so as to prevent a war. But now, these two ideas have merged in drones, because the espionage vehicles now are—have weapons on them. They have missiles. And so, you have these two services coming together. And of course, it’s very interesting that the former director of the CIA is now over at the Department of Defense, and the top man in Afghanistan is—

Charles Drago
06-10-2011, 12:04 PM
I've read the book and lingered over Jacobsen's breathless tale of how Josef Mengele -- alive and well and working for Uncle Joe -- bred a race of big-headed midget children, stuffed a handful into one of Stalin's Nazi-developed flying saucers, and sent them and it to crash in Roswell. Stalin's motive: Something about scaring the Americans with alien boogymen, or ...

She's serious. She bought that Weekly World News tabloid bullshit.

But here's where she really falls apart: Jacobsen's ingenuousness (as in "lacking in cunning, guile, or worldliness") in matters deep political manifests most hideously in her inability to ask the simple, obvious, all-important question:

Why would Stalin gift America with beyond-cutting-edge technology simply to scare Uncle Sam out of his red, white and blue-striped pants?

And it gets worse.

Jacobsen acknowledges that "even" conspiracy theorists (the pejorative usage is noted, honey) find that tall tale impossible to swallow, yet she sticks to her guns and states for the record, "I stand by the veracity of this source who told me this, because he worked out there in the desert for—across three decades working for the Atomic Energy Commission on many top-secret projects, and he was certainly in place and position to work on the project that he said he did."

It follows that she must believe, say, Arlen Specter's Single Bullet Theory because Specter worked for the Warren Commission and had access to Top Secret material and was certainly in place and position to know the truth. Or E. Howard Hunt's confession because blah blah blah.

The rumbling that you're hearing is Hunt laughing his decomposing ass off.

Seamus Coogan
06-10-2011, 04:18 PM
The whole thing is a total crock of $$$$. And this thing flew undetected flown by children and as you say CD obviously had such excellent tech the 'Sov's' just couldn't give it away? I have no freaking clue what went on at Roswell and I couldn't hazard a guess but what I do know is that this scenario is one of the worst I've ever heard!

'Hunt laughing his decomposing ass off'

That's a good un that one lol. But this is the biggest indication that she's not a partial observer.

"Meanwhile, just over the fence, at Area 51, the CIA was working to try to prevent nuclear war by developing these spy planes that could go peer over the fence, so to speak, over the Iron Curtain from 13 miles up. That’s how high the U-2 flew. So it’s this strange paradox out there in the desert, you know, practicing how to have a nuclear war, but then also practicing how to prevent one. And that still goes on today"

Ah right so the very bunch of guys who provoked an arms race with BS intelligence, had one of the U2's crash that spoiled the peace talks, were pulling illegal raids on Cuba during the missile crisis and where prepared to link Oswald as a KGB assett after the assassination were trying to prevent a Nuke war? Clever girl this one.

I just re-read CD's post and you know when you don't get stuff the first time! Sheeesh I can't believe she has Mengele working for Stalin? What next Hitler really was cloned and is living with an elderly spousal abusing dog breeder in the Midwest? Is she a ghost writer for Ira Levin from the grave? Or is it L Ron Hubbard?

Peter Lemkin
06-10-2011, 05:44 PM
I've heard a totally different story about Roswell, and it certainly wouldn't have been Soviet! I also agree with those here and disagree with the author that the CIA has anything whatsoever to do with Peace or preventing war - quite the opposite. As I understand it, while CIA things may be tested there, it is not a CIA facility. Yes, the book sounds less than a 'breakthrough', just thought I'd throw it out there and let people react to it. I personally have driven all around the area, and one time participated in a demonstration at the main gate of the Nuclear Test Area, run by the AEC and Military. While we were out in the middle of the dessert and there were no buildings visible anywhere in a landscape where you could see for many miles [mountains were visible in the distance in all directions], there were many [several hundred] angry guards - armed and Ninja-suited awaiting us. In the background were armored wagons to haul those away they wanted to arrest and take to L.V. It was a peaceful demo and none tried to even cross the fence lines [barbed wire, but the kind one could easily have crossed]. Some were arrested anyway. Land of free speech and the right to redress grievances - ha! On the way home, my car was buzzed by a killer 'copter bristling with guns and rocket pods.....just the locals being friendly.angryfire

Seamus Coogan
06-10-2011, 05:50 PM
I've heard a totally different story about Roswell, and it certainly wouldn't have been Soviet! I also agree with those here and disagree with the author that the CIA has anything whatsoever to do with Peace or preventing war - quite the opposite.angryfire

Disinfo does as disinfo will do Pete lol. But yeah did you get any pics of the demo and so fourth? Sounds really interesting.

Jan Klimkowski
06-10-2011, 05:57 PM
I've read the book and lingered over Jacobsen's breathless tale of how Josef Mengele -- alive and well and working for Uncle Joe -- bred a race of big-headed midget children, stuffed a handful into one of Stalin's Nazi-developed flying saucers, and sent them and it to crash in Roswell. Stalin's motive: Something about scaring the Americans with alien boogymen, or ...

She's serious. She bought that Weekly World News tabloid bullshit.

But here's where she really falls apart: Jacobsen's ingenuousness (as in "lacking in cunning, guile, or worldliness") in matters deep political manifests most hideously in her inability to ask the simple, obvious, all-important question:

Why would Stalin gift America with beyond-cutting-edge technology simply to scare Uncle Sam out of his red, white and blue-striped pants?



Charles - indeed.

Jacobsen is an ingenue, totally out of her depth.

Her book is most likely an officially sanctioned limited hangout. Indeed, it reminds me somewhat of the limited hangout around the "psychic spies".

Which begs the question: is Jacobsen witting or unwitting in her peddling of this limited hangout?

As a footnote, the story of Stealth's secret development is a crushing rebuttal of those who claim that "conspiracy theories" are rubbish because once secrets are know to hundreds or thousands of people, then they cannot remain secret.

The F-117 Nighthawk Stealth fighter was decades in development, and made its maiden flight in Groom Lake (aka Area 51).

The plane was operational from 1983.

The F-117 was not officially acknowledged by the US government until 1988.

Jan Klimkowski
06-12-2011, 10:04 AM
Yesterday I caught part of a NatGeo documentary entitled "Area 51 Declassified". See here (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/episode/area-51-declassified-4968/Videos#tab-Videos/10230_00).

Interviewees included a former Deputy Director of the CIA and many scientists and engineers who'd worked there.

The documentary emphasised work on the U2 and SR-71 (Blackbird). I wasn't able to watch it in detail, but I caught no mention of Stealth in what I saw.

I now have no doubt that a limited hangout, aimed at defining Area 51 as a top secret research base for covert Cold War hi-tech research, is currently being implemented.

As with all effective limited hangouts, this one contains a ladling of truth.

Charles Drago
06-12-2011, 02:15 PM
Jacobsen is featured in this mockumentary, the release of which has been timed to coincide with publication of her disinformation/limited hang-out tome.

Ed Jewett
06-12-2011, 06:03 PM
... lately even the propaganda isn't so stealthy ...

Jan Klimkowski
06-12-2011, 08:00 PM
Here's a definition of limited hangout, and the latest Area 51 "revelations", replete with Deputy Director of the CIA onscreen interview approval, seem to fit like a glove:


A limited hangout, or partial hangout, is a public relations or propaganda technique that involves the release of previously hidden information in order to prevent a greater exposure of more important details. It takes the form of deception, misdirection, or coverup often associated with intelligence agencies involving a release or "mea culpa" type of confession of only part of a set of previously hidden sensitive information, that establishes credibility for the one releasing the information who by the very act of confession appears to be "coming clean" and acting with integrity; but in actuality, by withholding key facts, is protecting a deeper operation and those who could be exposed if the whole truth came out. In effect, if an array of offenses or misdeeds is suspected, this confession admits to a lesser offense while covering up the greater ones.

A limited hangout typically is a response to lower the pressure felt from inquisitive investigators pursuing clues that threaten to expose everything, and the disclosure is often combined with red herrings or propaganda elements that lead to false trails, distractions, or ideological disinformation; thus allowing covert or criminal elements to continue in their improper activities.

Bernice Moore
07-25-2011, 02:05 AM
'Area 51' book stretches truth, ex-workers say....
http://www.lvrj.com/news/-area-51-book-stretches-truth-ex-workers-say-126077963.html

Jan Klimkowski
07-25-2011, 10:00 AM
Here's an excerpt from the review in Bernice's post:


Three of Area 51's former CIA contractors -- T.D. Barnes, Roger Anderson and Harry Martin -- discussed their concerns about the book by Annie Jacobsen with the Las Vegas Review-Journal to "set the record straight."

"To her credit, I think she provided a lot of accurate information in her book, but there are areas that are completely foreign to me," said Anderson, 81, of Las Vegas, a retired Air Force pilot who worked at Area 51's command post in the 1960s.

He said the part that puzzled him most "had to do with human engineering, that sort of thing. When you start talking about (Josef) Mengele and Hitler and Stalin, and you tie these things all together with an incident in New Mexico, to tie all that together it just didn't make any sense to us at all."

Barnes, 74, a retired CIA radar expert who lives in Henderson, said the trio opened doors for Jacobsen by giving her access to once-classified information and putting her in touch with their CIA colleagues.

They thought she was documenting the history of Area 51 and the top-secret development of the A-12 spy plane, known as the Oxcart Project.

Instead, she exaggerated the boundaries of the secret location and changed history by writing that it became the home of the Roswell aliens in 1951, four years before any facilities were built at Area 51, Barnes said.

"They threw us under the bus just to make a story," he said of Jacobsen and the book's publisher, Little, Brown and Company.

"This book stood 100 percent against what we believe in. It did a horrible amount of damage to us," he said. "There's no way people at Nellis (Air Force Base) can be affiliated with what we're charged with, charged with a blanket of sins in the book."

Martin said he was sad that the 523-page book stooped to the level of little green men.

"Parts of the book are very good, I think. But she didn't have to do a hatchet job. There were so many things she could have added to make it what we believed it was going to be," said Martin, 80, of Las Vegas, who was Area 51's fuel super*visor in 1961.

The men belong to Road*runners Internationale, an association of 360 former Area 51 workers. They said their historic roles in developing the predecessor to the Air Force's SR-71 Blackbird spy plane have been fogged by Groom Lake's alien lore.

To make the Roswell-Groom Lake connection, Jacobsen relied on an anonymous source described as a retired engineer who worked for Atomic Energy Commission contractor EG&G.

In the book's final chapter, titled "Revelation," Jacobsen includes a first-person dialogue between her and the engineer, the last living of five EG&G employees who said they had keys to a building where equipment and remains from the Roswell flying disc were kept.

"Everything related to the crash site was sent to Wright Field ... in Ohio, where it all remained until 1951. That is when the evidence was packed up and transported to the Nevada Test Site. It was received, physically, by the elite group of EG&G engineers," Jacobsen wrote. "The engineers were chosen to receive the crash remains and set up a secret facility just outside the boundary of the Nevada Test Site, sixteen miles to the northwest of Groom Lake."

Under Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, she wrote, the flying saucer had been loaded with childlike aviators with large heads and oversized eyes and flown over Roswell in a black-project propaganda operation when it crashed in 1947.

The chapter explains how the EG&G engineers were instructed by Manhattan Project engineer and World War II presidential science adviser Vannevar Bush to figure out what made the saucer fly.

"But there was the second engineering problem to solve, the one involving the child-size aviators," Jacobsen wrote.

"Because two of the aviators were comatose but still alive, the men would have to transfer them into a Jell-O-like substance and stand them upright in two tubular tanks attached to a life-support system. Sometimes their mouths opened, and this gave the appearance of their trying to speak. ... What made their heads so big? ... And what about their haunting, oversize eyes?

"The engineers were told that the children were rumored to have been kidnapped by Dr. Josef Mengele, the Nazi madman who ... was known to have performed unspeakable experimental surgical procedures mostly on children, dwarfs and twins."

Three pages later, Jacobsen asks, "When did it end?"

"At least through the 1980s it was still going on," the EG&G engineer replies.

Jacobsen's book has been on the New York Times best-seller list for eight weeks.

After the book's release in May, Barnes told ABC's "Nightline" there was "absolutely no chance that last chapter is true in any fashion." There were too many well drillers, cooks, medics and support staff who would have had knowledge of such practices to make it a well-kept secret for 60 years, he said.

The anonymous engineer has since been identified by the Roadrunners as test site pioneer Al O'Donnell.

Reached at his Henderson home Thursday, O'Donnell, 89, said, "I can't say anything about that operation whatsoever."

When asked if the events described in the book's last chapter were all true, O'Donnell said: "I would hope so."

He referred further questions to Nicole Dewey, the book publisher's spokeswoman.

"We stand by our author and her reporting in the entire book," Dewey wrote in an email.

When Jacobsen was asked by the Review-Journal if she believed the events in her book really happened, she wouldn't answer "yes" or "no."

"I believe the veracity of my source," she said. "I worked with my source for over two years, and his recollection of events over three decades always proved to be accurate down to the minutia."

As for the Roadrunners' criticism, "everyone is entitled to their opinion," she said.

Aerospace historian Peter Merlin, who is cited in the book, said he read it twice and "found blatant factual errors throughout the whole book. The last chapter is a horror."

Jacobsen, a contributing editor at Los Angeles Times Magazine and an investigative reporter, pointed to an explanation note in the book: "One cannot rule out the possibility that the elite EG&G engineers were given false information as a means of coercing them into a morally reprehensible program; in 1951, there was no greater enemy to the free world than Joseph Stalin. Until Russia opens its UFO archives, Stalin's side of the story will remain unknown."

Barnes, the Roadrunners' president, said he believes the childlike aviator tale was fabricated to give the publisher something "juicy" and "sensational." The anonymous source finally caved in "to just shut her up," he said.

"This is crap," Barnes said. "It would have been 'the' book on Area 51. It was not."

My own judgement remains that Jacobsen's book is a classic limited hangout with elements deliberately added to undermine the veracity even of those parts which are true.

The "Soviet child aviators" story, complete with a dash of Mengele, is utter nonsense.

However, it conveniently distracts attention away from the likely real nature of some of the research undertaken at Groom Lake: namely investigation of Nazi Schwarze Sonne technology.

Charles Drago
07-25-2011, 01:22 PM
FWIW, I remain steadfastly in both camps: human technology and VERY high strangeness.

Gary Severson
07-25-2011, 06:25 PM
This from Oxford Ph.D Joseph Farrell in his book "Black Sun".


316
In this respect, it is perhaps significant that some contemporary observers of the American space program and its odd thirty-year long "holding pattern" and tapestry of inconsistencies, lies, and obfuscations have long suspected that there are indeed two space programs inside the US government, the "public NASA one, and a quasi-independent one based deep within covert and black projects. In 1970, a curious document based upon the Garrison Investigation's voluminous files, called the "Nomenclature of an Assassination Cabal", otherwise known as the Torbitt document, was circulated, alleging a connection between this secret space program and the murder of President John F. Kennedy. Radio talk show conspiracy theorist Mae Brussel concurred: the secret space program was being run inside and quasi-independently of the public NASA program, and both were being coordinated by Wernher von Braun.
In this connection it is perhaps informative that the last document in the Cantwheel Majestic-12 documents is a Top Secert memo from November 12, 1963, - a scant ten days before the assassination - from President Kennedy to the Director of Counter Intelligence of the Central Intelligence Agency:
SUBJECT: Classification review of all UFO intelligence files affecting National Security. As I had discussed with you previously, I have initiated ???????? and have instructed James Webb to develop a program with the Soviet Union in joint space and lunar exploration. It would be very helpful if you would have the high threat cases reviewed with the purpose of identification of bona fide as opposed to classified CIA and USAF sources. It is important that we make a clear distinction between the knowns and the unknowns in the event the Soviets try to mistake our extended cooperation as a cover for intelligence gathering of their defence (sic) and space programs. When this data has been sorted out, I would like you to arrange a program of data sharing with NASA where Unknowns are a factor. This will help NASA mission directors in their defensive responsibilties. I would like an interim report on the data review no later than February 1, 1964. /s/ John F. Kennedy.68

Peter Lemkin
07-25-2011, 07:16 PM
The Torbitt Doc and the 'research' of Farrell are pretty shaky ground, IMO :what: Both have shreds of truth and gobs of nothingness. One of the standard methods of assassinating the JFK Assassination research has long been via 'ufo' type disinfo...and it comes from the TOP. Please, spare us. :mexican:

Jan Klimkowski
07-25-2011, 07:28 PM
The Torbitt Doc and the 'research' of Farrell are pretty shaky ground, IMO :what: Both have shreds of truth and gobs of nothingness. One of the standard methods of assassinating the JFK Assassination research has long been via 'ufo' type disinfo...and it comes from the TOP. Please, spare us. :mexican:

Peter - with respect, Yes and No.

Seamus Coogan and I have been several rounds over the NOMENCLATURE OF AN ASSASSINATION CABAL.

Farrell's LBJ book is also a hotchpotch, commissioned to prove a thesis that Farrell doesn't seem to believe in.

However, Nazi Schwarze Sonne mysticism, and links between Permindex, Clay Shaw and Gladio are real phenomena.

My own view, as stated above, is that products of Schwarze Sonne mysticism may very well have been investigated by Paperclip scientists at bases including the one now known as "Area 51".

Gary Severson
07-26-2011, 01:10 AM
The Torbitt Doc and the 'research' of Farrell are pretty shaky ground, IMO :what: Both have shreds of truth and gobs of nothingness. One of the standard methods of assassinating the JFK Assassination research has long been via 'ufo' type disinfo...and it comes from the TOP. Please, spare us. :mexican:

The title of the post was Mae Brussell not UFOs. Why not indict her too as shaky? The new book, Area 51, is not about aliens but about Nazi technology

Phil Dragoo
07-26-2011, 03:11 AM
Jacobsen puts CIA next to Area 51, and gives it the mission to prevent war. This in itself is a Richter Six fatal paradox.


Compare to Robert G. Vinson, Flight from Dallas, arriving Roswell, jostling through arcades crowded with hordes of variegated aliens departing for corners of the galaxy.


And the sequentially updated covers for the 1947 Flying Saucer headline, weather balloons, then dummies in flight suits.


Area 51 is a good place to make neat toys in secret.


The A-tests: one LANL scientist remembered ground-surfing, hiding in test bunkers to scare fellow scientists.


One techie describes a new technology to photograph the sky above and project it through the underside skin, presto visual stealth.


Soviets with saucer technology in 1947—then why didn't they prevail in Korean airspace.


Jacobsen's isn't even a good George Noory show.


Our former landlord who would come off the hill to grow his chilis ran the 1500-vehicle motor pool for Zia Company the precursor to EG&G. His demise was that of Lee Marvin in Richest Man in Bogota going blind, those little blood vessels in the eyes bursting, but oh no not from radiation.


Jacobsen's assignment is to vacuum up the last curiosity about secret projects, comingle them with the ridiculous, and broadcast the mix onto the fertile hillside of the public imagination.


Take something from one side of the fence and project it through the other. Nothing to see.