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Thread: Harvey and Lee vs. Richard Case Nagell

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    Default Harvey and Lee vs. Richard Case Nagell

    I'm not saying I agree with the conclusions, but it has some thought put into it and does make one think in ways few would otherwise. Being a fan of both Russell and Armstrong....I wish the two of them would address this issue- together! :joystick:
    Harvey and Lee vs. Richard Case Nagell

    The following is based on the research and theories of John Armstrong ("Harvey
    and Lee") and Dick Russell (The Man Who Knew Too Much).

    In 1969, lawyer Bernard Fensterwald received an unsolicited phone call from a
    man named Ricard von Kleist, who advised him to check out a Mexico City hotel
    called the Hotel Luma. Von Kleist told Fensterwald that a very important
    meeting had occurred there in July of 1963, attended by "Alex Hidell, otherwise
    known as Lee Harvey Oswald; a female attorney who is well known Communist in
    Los Angeles" . . . a hotel headwaiter named Franz Waehauf "who owned a launch
    believed to be shuttling between Mexico and Cuba," and "Richard Case Nagell,
    former Captain, US Army, associated with Counter Intelligence in Japan" in
    1957-58. Von Kleist recommended that Fensterwald contact a man named Robert
    Clayton Buick, who was then serving a 20-year sentence for bank robbery at the
    McNeil Island Penitentiary in Washington State (Russell, 373). "I went on that
    bank spree," Buick told Dick Russell, "because I was bitter over the Kennedy
    assassination, and that nobody was doing anything about it. That's the truth. .
    . . I knew that certain people with US intelligence knew what had gone down
    with the assassination, and that I myself had been used by them" (Russell,
    376). As unlikely as his story is, it's nowhere near as incredible as that of
    Richard Case Nagell.

    On September 20, 1963, Richard Case Nagell had walked into the State National
    Bank in El Paso, Texas, fired two shots into the ceiling with a revolver, and
    then waited patiently for someone to arrest him. The only statement he made to
    police was, "I would rather be arrested than commit murder and treason." During
    a preliminary hearing in mid November 1963, his arresting officer, Jim Bundren,
    quietly asked Nagell if he'd actually intended to rob the El Paso Bank. Nagell
    replied, "Well, I'm glad you caught me. I really don't want to be in Dallas
    right now." "What do you mean?" Bundren asked. "You'll see soon enough," Nagell
    said (Russell, 43-45).

    In July 1963, Buick was an American living in Mexico City, making a living as a
    professional bullfighter, and he spent a lot of his leisure hours in the bar at
    the Hotel Luma, a favorite hangout for a number of the town's bullfighters. One
    night he was approached by two agents of an American government agency which
    Buick declines to specify. They offered Buick an attractive retainer to report
    to them certain conversations he might overhear at the Luma. He agreed (Ibid.)

    "One of the first people Buick reported back on was the Luma's bartender, Franz
    Waehauf. 'He was way below his station, pal,' Buick recalls. 'I often wondered
    what the hell he was doing as a cocktail waiter. . . It was just mysterious to
    me why [manager Warren] Broglie and a simple cocktail waiter were always in
    these very intense conversations'" (Russell, 377).

    That same summer of 1963, Buick also observed a tall, well-dressed American
    with erect military bearing in the bar. . . . "you can't miss him because of
    his scars and what-have-you. And he had a very penetrating look about him. It
    was only later that things fell into place" (Russell, 377). The American, Buick
    would later discover, was Richard Case Nagell (Russell, 94-96).

    There was another American whom Buick saw in the Luma. "This guy in his early
    twenties, he came up to me and said he was interested in becoming a
    bullfighter. . . . Then [he] went into some political things. And it began to
    seep in that this guy's philosophical views were erratic. Out in left field
    somewhere. He was an extremist type." The American introduced himself as "Alex
    Hidell" (Russell, 377-78). Then "Alex" screwed up: he came back using another
    name, and Buick called him on it. "Alex" avoided Buick after that. So Buick
    observed "Alex Hidell" from a distance, watched as he huddled in conversations
    with bartender Waehauf and sometimes also with hotel manager Broglie. "As I
    recall, 'Alex' wasn't in the hotel very long. I saw him once fleetingly, either
    leaving the bar or the lobby going out the front door. And I saw him twice in
    the bar [with Waehauf and Broglie]. . . . They would talk to some Cubans, too.
    . . ." (Russell, 378)

    "Buick claimed he did overhear snatches of conversation in the Luma bar
    concerning an assassination attempt against President Kennedy. 'And I related
    this to [the two US agents]. . . . [I]t wasn't something that was directly
    stated, but more implied. Only in retrospect did it all come together for me.
    When Kennedy got hit, the top of my head came off. My whole five or six months
    [at the Luma] went right before my eyes when I saw Oswald's face. It was
    Alex!'" Robert Clayton Buick has no doubt he was in Mexico City with Oswald
    before September 1963 (Russell, 378).

    Russell located retired Hotel Luma manager Warren Broglie in Florida. Broglie
    didn't recall Richard Case Nagell, but that he did "get together socially with
    Win Scott, the head man of CIA in Mexico. . . ." Broglie was also 'an old
    friend' of George Munroe, another ex-FBI agent who in 1962 was the CIA's
    leading surveillance man in Mexico City, responsible for the electronic bugging
    of the Soviet and Cuban embassies (Russell, 239). As for Franz Waehauf,
    Nagell's friend Arthur Greenstein says that Nagell said of Franz, "You know,
    he's Czech intelligence." Czechoslovakia is the official intermediary between
    the Castro government and the United States. Ex-CIA agent Philip Agee says that
    outside of the US they were considered to be an auxiliary arm of the Soviets
    (Russell, 240).

    Richard Case Nagell was born in Greenwich, New York, on August 5, 1930
    (Russell, 91). He enlisted in the army on his eighteenth birthday, and trained
    as a paratrooper at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. He went into intelligence at
    nineteen, studied Russian at Fort Bragg and took an extension course from the
    University of California in Mandarin Chinese (Russell, 92).

    In the fall of 1951, Nagell shipped off to Korea (Ibid.). Nagell had been
    through officer training school, and arrived in Teagu, South Korea as a second
    lieutenant, leading a rifle platoon with the 24th Infantry Division. Nagell's
    sergeant in Korea, John Margain, told Dick Russell in 1991, "He did not know
    what fear was. Shit, he would jump in the goddamn trench holes and you'd see
    Chinese coming out of there. That's where he got all the respect of the
    company. Have you ever seen his body? He's got bullet holes all over him"
    (Russell, 93).

    Nagell was promoted to first lieutenant on Christmas Day 1951, the same say he
    received his first battle wounds. He was leading a patrol up a hill when he
    "got a grenade fragment in my leg, a burp gun bullet here in my left wrist, and
    a bullet hole through my helmet which took the hair off but didn't really
    injure me." In August 1952 he was rotated back to the US, but was sent back to
    Korea at his own request. On December 6, 1952, he received grenade fragments in
    his legs and face; five days later he was back at the front (Ibid.).

    On June 11, 1953, fragments from a mortar or artillery shell hit him in the
    face, giving him a concussion. He was flown to the Tokyo Army Hospital, but was
    back in action by early July. He did not leave the front until ordered back to
    Seoul just five hours before the armistice was signed. His assistant division
    commander, a General Dunkelberg, was so impressed with Nagell's service that he
    backdated Nagell's last promotion to July 15, 1953, making Richard Case Nagell
    the youngest American to receive a battlefield commission to captain during the
    course of the war. When the war ended on July 27, 1953, Nagell was just nine
    days shy of his twenty-third birthday (Russell, 94).

    Upon his return to the US, Nagell received "Special Orders" to report to the
    Army Language School in Monterey, California, "to pursue a course of
    instruction in the Japanese language." This school is well known as a training
    ground for Military Intelligence operatives. Nagell spent a year mastering not
    only Japanese, but also Russian and Spanish. He was en route by airplane to his
    first assignment when the plane went down. The whole platoon bailed out. Nagell
    was the only soldier on board who'd undergone extensive training as a
    paratrooper; he was the only survivor (Russell, 95).

    Nagell was assigned to the Army's Counter Intelligence Corps (CIC) School at
    Fort Holabird, Maryland. He was returning to Fort Holabird from a Thanksgiving
    visit to a girlfriend in San Francisco on November 28, 1954, in a B-25 bomber.
    Due to weather conditions, the plane was redirected to Friendship Airport in
    Baltimore. Minutes later the plane struck a hilltop and was torn to pieces
    against the rocky surface and surrounding trees. Twelve hours later, rescuers
    and packhorses made it through the forbidding terrain and freezing rain and
    reached the wreckage. Five of the six-man crew were dead; Richard Case Nagell,
    in deep shock and barely able to breathe, was found barely alive. By the time
    he reached Bolling Air Force Base in Washington, DC, he'd fallen into a coma.
    He'd sustained a skull fracture and severe concussion which would leave a
    permanent depression on the left side of his head, as well as a shattered jaw.
    A few weeks later, the Washington Post reported that "Nagell, three times
    winner of the Purple Heart, is making a 'remarkable recovery,' a Bolling Air
    Force Base spokesman said." He was transferred to Walter Reed Army Hospital,
    and spent the next four months recovering. Before his release he underwent a
    thorough psychiatric examination which concluded he'd sustained no brain
    damage; he was back on duty with the CIC in May 1955, sole survivor of two
    consecutive plane crashes (Russell, 96-97).

    Nagell would later describe CIC this way: "[T]he mission of the Counter
    Intelligence Corps, which is part of the Army, is to investigate any matters
    relating to treason, subversion, espionage, disaffection, that might be taking
    place within the military establishment or that might be conducted by civilians
    which are employed by corporations, factories or concerns which are under
    military contract. . . . [O]verseas they are just like the FBI in some ways."
    On August 12, 1955, Nagell was designated a Counter Intelligence officer
    (Russell, 97).

    Nagell would recall, "It during the winter of 1955-56, while assigned as a Case
    Review Officer with the Counter Intelligence Corps at Los Angeles, that I was
    initially recruited into the CIA's far-flung network of informants and agents,
    one of a number, I suppose, within the Defense Department's intelligence
    community who helped the Agency keep an eye on its not always tame competitor.
    My recruitment was handled by a Herbert [Ernest] Leibacher, an agent of the
    CIA's Los Angeles office, and a Joe DaVanon, later identified to me through
    photographs as an official from CIA headquarters, then located on 'E' Street in
    Washington, DC." Dick Russell was able to verify that both men were indeed with
    the CIA in Los Angeles during the mid '50s. Contacted by phone, the 83-year old
    Leibacher could only say that Nagell's name "sounds familiar" (Russell, 98).

    On May 5, 1956, he received a letter from the headquarters of the Army
    Intelligence Center that he was being reassigned to the Far East (Russell, 99).
    He shipped off to the US Army Command Reconnaissance Activities Far East
    (ACRAFE) headquarters in Japan, located strategically close to the Soviet
    Union. He was assigned to a unit called Field Operations Intelligence (FOI): "I
    was required to sign papers subjecting myself to ten years' imprisonment or
    ten-thousand-dollar fine, or both, if I disclosed to unauthorized persons the
    nature of my duties or other classified information, including the fact that an
    organization like FOI existed. I was instructed to never mention the phrase
    'Field Operations Intelligence' or the acronym 'FOI' outside of a secure place
    or in the presence of unauthorized persons, even around headquarters. On paper,
    FOI was subordinate and operationally responsible to the Office of the
    Assistant Chief of Staff for Intelligence, Department of the Army. In function,
    however, FOI was merely an augmentation to CIA special (military) operations,
    in effect a covert extension of CIA policy and activity designed to conceal the
    true nature of CIA objectives" (Russell, 101). Much of this, too, Dick Russell
    was able to verify, despite the fact that -- even decades later -- former
    employees were reluctant to do more than acknowledge a former position with FOI
    (Russell, 101-06).

    Of the two men Nagell identified as his FOI superiors, Colonel John B. Stanley
    was the more forthcoming. "There's so much to it," Col. Stanley told Dick
    Russell. "It was independent of the CIC. FOI, generally speaking, had to do
    with collection of intelligence in denied areas. Anyone considered unfriendly
    was a target, and we were particularly interested in North Korea, China, and
    the Soviet Union. . . . I guess we must have had about seventy-five or eighty
    officers, sometimes between fifteen hundred and two thousand enlisted men. . .
    . we had units in various places in Japan. I had one in Korea, and there were
    more in the Philippines, Bangkok, and especially in Taiwan. . . . We were
    allowed to put people undercover -- I think this was the first time the Army
    tried it -- take them out of uniform and get them civilian jobs." Stanley was
    being modest; his own "Team 26," which included Nagell, engaged in a great deal
    of activity infinitely more consequential than the mere gathering of
    intelligence. Stanley said that Nagell's name "rings a bell" (Russell, 103).

    According to Nagell, one of the reasons for the extreme secrecy surrounding FOI
    was that a number of its operations were "in violation of the armistice ending
    the Korean conflict." Others were flagrantly illegal: "During my service with
    the FOI and CIC in Japan, the FOI sponsored, financed, supported, or otherwise
    participated in assassinations, kidnappings, blackmailings and a host of other
    illicit practices in violation of US federal statutes, the Uniform Code of
    Military Justice, international law and US treaties and treaty obligations." He
    was a first-hand witness to more than one US-sponsored kidnapping and
    assassination. He rapidly grew disenchanted with this business, and got himself
    reassigned to an administrative position. He was returned from South Korea back
    to FOI's Far East Headquarters in Tokyo. It was here that he says he first came
    into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald (Russell, 106, 109, 134-36; cf. "Two
    Oswalds: Marine Years" on this NG).

    In 1986, Nagell sent Russell a copy of a Military Intelligence "Agent Report"
    dated May 2, 1969, which Nagell had obtained under the Freedom of Information
    Act. The report, apparently written by a Special Agent Thomas J. Hench of the
    766th Military Intelligence Department. Headed, "NAGELL, Richard Case," the
    report states, "During the period from August 1962 to October 1963, SUBJECT
    [Nagell] was intermittently employed as an informant and/or investigator for
    the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). In April 1963, SUBJECT conducted an
    inquiry concerning the marital status of Marina Oswald and her reported desire
    to return to the USSR. During July, August, September, and on one occasion
    prior to this, SUBJECT conducted an inquiry into the activities of Lee Harvey
    Oswald, and the allegation that he had established a Fair Play for Cuba
    Committee in New Orleans, Louisiana. SUBJECT stated that while working for the
    CIA, HE had operated in Mexico, Florida, Louisiana, Texas, California, Puerto
    Rico, and New York. HE was primarily concerned with investigating activities of
    [a]nti-Castro organizations and their personnel in the United States and
    Mexico. On 20 September 1963, SUBJECT was arrested in El Paso, Texas on the
    charge of entering a Federal bank with the intent to commit a felony. In May
    1964 and September 1966, SUBJECT was twice tried and twice convicted on this
    charge. The conviction of the May 1964 trial had been subsequently reversed,
    thus the reason for the second trial. SUBJECT was sentenced to a maximum of ten
    years imprisonment, but was released after four and one-half years. SUBJECT
    claimed that HIS conviction and subsequent incarceration was a result, not of
    HIS supposed intent to commit a felony, but rather as a result of HIS knowledge
    of Lee Harvey Oswald and the assassination of President Kennedy" (Russell, 54).

    Nagell was working for the CIA in Mexico City when he was recruited by an
    American calling himself "Bob," whom Nagell believed to be a CIA officer for a
    separate division than his current employer. This operation involved
    infiltrating the activities of Lee Harvey Oswald and Franz Waehauf at the Hotel
    Luma. He found himself in the middle of an assassination plot, the target of
    which was only revealed to him later as President Kennedy. By this point he no
    longer was certain that his paychecks, which were disbursed through an
    intermediary, were coming from the CIA. Then his case officer "Bob" suddenly
    disappeared without a trace (Russell, 240-42, 372-73).

    At that point Nagell got in touch with a representative of the KGB, to warn
    them that a pro-Communist, pro-Castro American was plotting to kill the
    President. He was aware that an assassination of President Kennedy was as much
    a threat to the Soviets as to America, particularly if the act was plotted by
    Communists, as Nagell believed it was. The KGB offered him an unspecified
    amount of money to "stop the clock" on the assassination: to either talk Oswald
    out of it or kill him (Russell, 436-37).

    In September 1963, Nagell claimed to have met with Oswald in New Orleans and
    tried to convince him that he was being used by forces he did not understand.
    When this failed, he decided not to go through with the murder, for reasons
    that he's never specified. He planned to leave the country, certain that by
    openly confronting Oswald he had made himself a marked man (Russell, 438-40).
    Oswald would apparently head for Mexico City at the same time Nagell expected
    him there.

    According to a sworn affidavit of November 21, 1975, drafted by Nagell, he sent
    a registered letter to J. Edgar Hoover on September 20, 1963, informing him
    that President Kennedy would be assassinated during the last week of September
    as part of a conspiracy involving Lee Harvey Oswald, whose description,
    aliases, and current address Nagell included. He named one "overt act" Oswald
    had previously committed which would justify his immediate arrest or at least
    an investigation. Nagell also named a criminal act he himself had committed,
    details of which he never provided to anyone else. He added that by the time
    Hoover received the letter, he himself would be out of the country. He sent
    another letter, presumably of similar content, to the CIA. Then he changed his
    mind, and walked into a bank instead (Russell, 43-45, 53-57, 446-48).

    When Robert Clayton Buick was arrested in Texas for bank robbery in 1966, he
    was supposed to be extradited to California. But first he was taken to the El
    Paso County Jail where he was reunited with Richard Case Nagell, with whom
    Buick found himself sharing a cell. The two men had no doubt they had been
    placed together for a reason. They assumed their cell was bugged. Buick added,
    "Nagell's been fortunate because they've tapped him off as a kook. Well, he's
    definitely no kook. An absolutely brilliant man -- who's been through some
    shit, I'll tell you" (Russell, 379).

    Former CIA operative Robert Morrow says that Tracy Barnes, chief of the CIA's
    Domestic Operations Division, had confided to him that he was concerned about a
    Mafia-connected ultra right-ring clique in New Orleans that worked with the
    Agency, but he believed was getting out of control. The group included Guy
    Banister and David Ferrie. Barnes mentioned to Morrow that he'd dispatched an
    agent under the false name "Joseph Kramer," complete with a fake Department of
    Defense security dossier, to infiltrate Banister's organization at 531
    Lafayette/544 Camp Street. "Kramer," according to Morrow, had successfully
    infiltrated an assassination plot directed at JFK, had found himself in way
    over his head, and took himself out of the action by getting himself arrested
    in the State National Bank in El Paso in September 1963 (Morrow, Betrayal,
    133-35). By his own admission, "Joseph Kramer" was one of Richard Case Nagell's
    aliases. Dick Russell interviewed Robert Morrow in 1976, and Morrow confirmed
    that he'd heard "Kramer's" story directly from Tracy Barnes at the CIA
    (Russell, 216). Barnes died in 1972.

    In February 1983, Robert Morrow received a phone call from someone he hadn't
    seen in many years -- someone, in fact, he believed was long dead. Morrow had
    known Col. William Bishop in the early '60s, when Bishop - under a different
    name -- was training anti-Castro Cubans out of a camp located at No Name Key in
    southern Florida. He'd been a leading player in the CIA's 1961 overthrow and
    assassination of the Dominican Republic's Rafael Trujillo. In 1983 Bishop had
    just read Morrow's semi-fictionalized novel, Betrayal, and wanted to talk to
    Morrow. Bishop said he knew from first-hand experience that Betrayal got the
    events of the assassination very nearly correct, and as he was dying of cancer,
    he wanted to set the record straight on certain details. Among other things, he
    remembered Morrow's "Richard Carson Fillmore" (Russell, 505-06).

    In 1990, two years before Bishop's death, Dick Russell tracked the Colonel down
    through assassination researcher J. Gary Shaw, who had found him through Morrow
    and had built up a strong rapport with him. Russell interviewed Bishop in
    Shaw's presence. Russell handed Bishop a photocopy of Nagell's 1962 passport
    photo. "[H]e was with Alpha 66. Does he admit that?" Alpha 66 was the rabidly
    anti-Castro group that Angel and Leopoldo were associated with (Russell, 508).

    When Bishop met Nagell, Nagell was allegedly working as a bodyguard for Rolando
    Masferrer. "Later I began realizing that this guy was with intelligence, under
    CIA contract. But you see, Rolando Masferrer was deeply involved with Alpha
    66." Russell asked Bishop if he'd been in New Orleans during the late summer of
    1963. "It had to be August or September of '63," he replied. ". . . When I got
    to New Orleans, within a matter of days this fellow's presence came up. He had
    been there several times before I ever went there and got involved, okay? He
    was trying to get into the inner workings of the anti-Castro movement. Asking
    about the various and sundry pro- and anti-Castro groups in the New Orleans
    area. The training camps. Who was doing the training, who was putting the money
    up for 'em, all that kind of stuff. The exiles I was working with asked, did I
    know him? They were trying to check him out. He was asking too many pointed
    questions about things he had no business knowing (Russell, 510).

    ". . . That's when I called Bill Colby at CIA." Colby, in 1963, had replaced
    Desmond FitzGerald as head of the CIA's Far Eastern Division. "So I asked
    Colby, 'who the hell is this?' He said, 'I don't know the man. Use
    discretion.'" (Russell, 510-11).

    Had Bishop put a Cuban on Nagell's tail in El Paso? "That's not what happened,"
    he said. "I put somebody on him to check him out -- IN New Orleans. The exiles
    brought up a name, a man I didn't know but was said to be responsible, that
    they wanted to put on this guy's tail. I said okay, use him. But don't confuse
    the issue. You're talking about two different operations altogether. I don't
    know who the hell was following him in El Paso. It was several months after
    that when I heard about your man here shooting up this bank. I do know there
    was a Cuban after him. Antonio Veciana [of Alpha 66] told me this, word of
    mouth" (Russell, 511).

    Did Bishop know Oswald? "I did look into Oswald's background. I'd never met
    him, but I'd seen him in a training film in New Orleans the past summer. He
    just happened to be in the group out there at the Pontchartrain camp. Trying to
    get in with the anti-Castro exiles." (Russell, 508). Did Bishop know Angel and
    Leopoldo? "What about 'em?" "Do you know who they really were?" Russell asked.
    "No comment," the Colonel replied. Was it safe to say they were with Alpha 66?
    "Absolutely." Did they operate out of Mexico City? "I can tell you that much
    (Russell, 512).

    "There was talk as early as 1962 about assassinating Kennedy," Bishop
    continued, "doing it right after his speech at the Orange Bowl. And then about
    doing it in Los Angeles. Nothing ever came of that. Nothing SERIOUS ever came
    of that." Russell was stunned: Nagell had told him the exact same thing. In
    fact, Nagell claimed to have infiltrated and attempted to warn the authorities
    about both of them. Bishop implied that Angel and Leopoldo were a part of all
    these operations, just as Nagell had also said (Russell, 514).

    Could Angel and Leopoldo have convinced Oswald that they were working for
    Castro and recruited him into an assassination plot? Bishop sighed. He said, "I
    don't know that for a fact, but it's a good possibility. . . . I'll tell you
    one damn thing, whoever set up that poor little son of a bitch did a
    first-class job" (Russell, 514).

    Now Russell had found three people to support Richard Case Nagell's claim that
    he was heavily involved with the murmurs of assassination conspiracy that
    thrived in the years of 1962 and 1963, two of whom -- Buick and Morrow -- knew
    of his involvement with Lee Harvey Oswald. Can we now take Richard Case Nagell
    seriously? And if so -- which Oswald?

    This author has always been in a quandary concerning Nagell. On the one hand, I
    do not believe that Lee Harvey Oswald -- the Oswald killed in Dallas by Jack
    Ruby -- was a gunman or conspirator in the JFK assassination plot. Yet I find
    Nagell's story compelling - even now when, after his death, physical evidence
    Nagell claimed to possess has failed to surface. In fact, one of the very
    reasons I find Nagell so compelling is that his story is exactly the opposite
    of what he knew the assassination research community wanted to hear. In a
    bitter note to Dick Russell, Nagell complained, "Bigfoot Jim Garrison and all
    of the so-called Assassination Buffs and journalists didn't want me because I
    insisted that LHO was in it up to his ears" (Russell, 612). Does Nagell fit
    into the world of Harvey and Lee?

    Lee Oswald had served in the Far East when Nagell claimed to have met him;
    Nagell was in Japan from February 1957 to August 1958, while Harvey Oswald was
    at Pfisterer's in New Orleans with Palmer McBride until July 1958, then (at
    least briefly) in Fort Worth. Harvey Oswald's whereabouts are largely accounted
    for through the summer of 1963, when Nagell and Robert Clayton Buick say he was
    in and out of Mexico and Texas. Yet it sounds like Harvey the men describe.

    While there are any number of possibilities, I have outlined the four theories
    that are the most probable given the facts as we know them.

    Theory #1: None of Nagell's story vis-a-vis Oswald in 1963 is true (regardless
    of whether he knew Oswald in Japan). For this to be so, he and Robert Clayton
    Buick colluded to fabricate the story of Oswald's involvement in the
    assassination. This would mean that William Bishop and Robert Morrow (or,
    conceivably, his alleged source, Tracy Barnes) also fabricated their stories.

    Theory #2: Nagell knew the man we call Harvey in Japan in 1957-58 and also in
    the US and Mexico in 1963, and therefore either John Armstrong's "Harvey and
    Lee" theory is completely and utterly wrong, or that Armstrong is mistaken in
    placing Harvey in New Orleans with Palmer McBride, William Wulf, and the rest.
    Thus Lee -- or someone else -- would have been in New Orleans impersonating
    Harvey -- spouting Communist doctrine, threatening Eisenhower, etc. I mentioned
    this to Armstrong as a hypothetical possibility; he replied only, "I doubt it"
    (Correspondence between the author and John Armstrong, September 1998). I doubt
    it, too.

    Theory #3: Nagell never met Harvey. Nagell knew Lee in Japan in 1957-58 where
    both were US intelligence operatives. When he spied upon Lee in late 1962 and
    most of '63, he assumed Lee was both the Marine he'd known in Japan as well as
    the "pro-Castro Marxist" whose current intelligence dossiers he was familiar
    with. It is conceivable -- however unlikely -- that their few face-to-face
    meetings failed to dispel this impression. Thus Nagell may well have been
    (mostly) correct -- the Oswald he knew may well have been an assassination
    conspirator. The likelihood, however, is that if Nagell went looking for
    Oswald, he would find Harvey, who was living under the name of "Lee Harvey
    Oswald" in New Orleans and Texas, not Lee, who was elsewhere, working
    underground with the CIA-Cuban community. And in all probability, Lee would
    have to be posing as a pro-Castro sympathizer like Harvey in order to give
    Nagell that impression, something Lee may indeed have done on occasion.

    Theory #4: Nagell knew Lee in Japan, but knew Harvey in 1962 and '63. He met
    Harvey in late '62 or 1963, unaware that Harvey was not the man he knew in
    Japan. Nagell was adamant that it was absolutely a pro-Castro, FPCC-involved
    Oswald he knew. This would make Harvey either an assassination conspirator or
    an infiltrator who'd penetrated deeply enough to fool an observer such as
    Nagell. This would also invalidate completely our sole source of knowledge of
    Harvey's whereabouts in the summer of '63 -- his wife, Marina, whose testimony
    consistent places Harvey at home reading or practicing working the bolt on his
    rifle when he's not out working or involved with his fake FPCC activities.

    With the exception of the first, none of these theories is likely; yet, barring
    more complicated scenarios (an infinite number of which could be put forward),
    one of them must be true.

    Dave Reitzes
    "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
    "World War III will be a global information war with no division between civilian & military participation." Marshall McLuhan
    "Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn

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    Great article, thanks for posting... i have a lot of respect for Dave Reitzes efforts even though i have butted heads with him once or twice on some forum's.


    I have an observation:

    When all of these leads were followed up in the late 80's and early 90's and people like Nagell, Broglie, Leibacher, Colonel John B. Stanley, Col William Bishop come clean with information but only to a point.

    Whats holding them back?

    Why are they happy to say a and b but never go as far to reveal c!

    Oswald, Ruby, Bannister, Ferrie, Hoover, LBJ, Win Scott, William Colby, Dick Helms, JJ Angleton and Dick Nixon they are all dead and gone.

    Who are they still protecting from holding back the full truth as they now it at this such a late stage as 1990/91?

    Who at this date in history, is still around and in a position of power that makes these people fear for themselves and there families, should they blatantly come out with their versions of the truth as they know it and disclose everything in full detail?.

    Just some food for thought....what other reason explains everyones reluctance to fully disclose what they know?
    Last edited by A.J. Blocker; 11-01-2012 at 04:21 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Apparently with Armstrong he had a ton of other radioactive stuff which he could have used but he was unable to find other corroborating sources for some of it so only what was able to be independently corroborated ended up in his book.
    "I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

    The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.
    Karl Marx.

    "Well, he would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies, 1963, replied Ms Rice Davies when the prosecuting counsel pointed out that Lord Astor denied an affair or having even met her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magda Hassan View Post
    Apparently with Armstrong he had a ton of other radioactive stuff which he could have used but he was unable to find other corroborating sources for some of it so only what was able to be independently corroborated ended up in his book.
    Yes, this is true....and perhaps a very wise and cautious way to do a book....however, the information needs to be put out somehow to the research community, I think, so they can investigate it further. Armstrong himself has stopped all work on JFK and LHO. I only know one person who had been shown the missing material. That was Jack White - and Jack now is very sadly gone....and missed GREATLY!

    I can only hope that at some point Armstrong becomes active again. Without Jack, I don't even know anyone who knows how to contact Armstrong.

    -------
    As to the point above asking why some operative types tell a and b and not c, let alone z... From my own difficult experiences with a few, there are multiple reasons. For some it is one, for others another, for yet others a mix and sometimes the mix is changing over time. First, there is fear that to tell of something [JFK related or related to other missions] beyond a certain point is potentially deadly. Next, some feel they can tell what they knew and did, but NOT what others did and knew - out of either fear or promises or their promise of secrecy from long ago [not outing old buddies, unless the old buddy wants to out themselves and if dead, let it lie]. Next there is often [all too often] that it is a limited modified hangout....i.e. some information mixed with a liberal dose of disinformation - to confuse, control and divert, etc. And then there is the fact that all operations are highly compartmentalized and done on a need to know basis, so each person knows only their role and the few people who they were in contact with - and perhaps not fully about those other's roles. While they [as we] could speculate, some prefer to only say what they know for sure, limiting what they say. Oh, almost forgot...there is sometimes mind control that went on at the time or after, leaving false memory traces or mixed up memory traces or prohibitions to remember certain things. This is NOT a complete list.
    "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
    "World War III will be a global information war with no division between civilian & military participation." Marshall McLuhan
    "Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn

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    Yes, it should all be out there for others to take it and run with it. The information wants to be free.
    "I think it would be a good idea." Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization.

    The philosophers have only interpreted the world, in various ways; the point is to change it.
    Karl Marx.

    "Well, he would, wouldn't he?" Mandy Rice-Davies, 1963, replied Ms Rice Davies when the prosecuting counsel pointed out that Lord Astor denied an affair or having even met her.

  6. Default I've been working with John

    He contacted me a while back thru Jack (he like what I was saying about the FBI taking all the evidnece the night of the assasiantion and the FACT that Dulles took Cadigan's testimony of such evidence at FBI HQ all weekend and REWROTE IT!

    We've subsequently have discussed his work, the book, and some of the very important points...
    and maintain contact... given the opportunity I'll be going to visit him to see some of the work first hand...

    Now while I am no where near familiar with John's work as Jack was... I am getting deeper and deeper inside it with his help. I am currently reading/re-reading both books...

    Peter wrote:

    Lee Oswald had served in the Far East when Nagell claimed to have met him;
    Nagell was in Japan from February 1957 to August 1958, while Harvey Oswald was
    at Pfisterer's in New Orleans with Palmer McBride until July 1958, then (at
    least briefly) in Fort Worth. Harvey Oswald's whereabouts are largely accounted
    for through the summer of 1963, when Nagell and Robert Clayton Buick say he was
    in and out of Mexico and Texas. Yet it sounds like Harvey the men describe.

    Theory #4: Nagell knew Lee in Japan, but knew Harvey in 1962 and '63. He met
    Harvey in late '62 or 1963, unaware that Harvey was not the man he knew in
    Japan. Nagell was adamant that it was absolutely a pro-Castro, FPCC-involved
    Oswald he knew. This would make Harvey either an assassination conspirator or
    an infiltrator who'd penetrated deeply enough to fool an observer such as
    Nagell. This would also invalidate completely our sole source of knowledge of
    Harvey's whereabouts in the summer of '63 -- his wife, Marina, whose testimony
    consistent places Harvey at home reading or practicing working the bolt on his
    rifle when he's not out working or involved with his fake FPCC activities.


    According what I can see, Harvey and Lee were both in Japan in the summer of 1958.
    CE1961 tells us that Oswald was in Japan from 3/18/58 - 9/13/58... it also tells us that Oswald sails to Ping Tung N. Taiwan on 9/14/58 yet an Oswald
    is treated for STDs IN JAPAN all during this time Harvey is in Taiwan.

    The DoD was asked how this could be and replied that Oswald was called back and did not go to Taiwan - which is refuted by those who accompanied Oswald and saw him repeatedly in Taiwan...
    The Unit Diary also tells us that he is listed on the ship leaving as well as the ship returning to Japan on October 6th. I am of the opinion the Marines like to know exactly where all their men are at any given time...

    Below is the Diary listing those that returned from Taiwan on Oct 6th.... Oswald is listed
    Next to it is the Med log showing him being treated during this same period at the hospital in Japan...

    These same diaries now place Oswald in the hospital from October 7th thru the 13th yet the same records that details his medical treatment for STDs has him being treated on Oct 6th,
    the day after his return and after being seen on 9/26/58 (while he was in Taiwan?). We see the next entry on October 24th still with STD discharge...
    btw - it was LEE who had a girlfriend during this time as did Nagell... problem is we do not know when they began combining events into a single person...

    There is a strong indication that HARVEY was sent to a southern town in Japan during this time and is ultimately shipped off to CA on 11/2/58 while LEE remains.

    Add to this the tracking of Lee's mother and Harvey's caretaker... and down the rabbit hole we go...

    Check out the artifical background behind "Oswald's" head as well....

    I'm still focused on PRE 1960... the evidence from John Pic about his brother NOT being who he remembered is quite convincing,
    especially since during his testimony he correctly picks LEE from HARVEY every time....

    This is one subject near and dear... and I would love to be able to pickup where John leaves off... Going thru each and every page at the Baylor archive is a place to start....

    Cheers
    DJ
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    i FORGOT about Armstrong's putting stuff at Baylor. Does anyone know if he put ALL of his research there, or is it confined to what was background for what wound up in the book?! I know he was on the trail of Lee in Florida and apparently located him and his address...which caused him to move. At the latter address [which was once posted by someone on the 'other' Forum], I did a Google Earth search of the address and 'what do you know', it showed a normal suburban neighborhood, but the house that Lee supposedly lived in had been ALTERED - the house, cars and part of the yard were obscured by some computer generated fake [and much oversized] 'roof'. FWIW.
    "Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws. - Mayer Rothschild
    "World War III will be a global information war with no division between civilian & military participation." Marshall McLuhan
    "Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. People are obedient in the face of poverty, starvation, stupidity, war, and cruelty. Our problem is that the grand thieves are running the country. That's our problem!" - Howard Zinn

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Lemkin View Post
    i FORGOT about Armstrong's putting stuff at Baylor. Does anyone know if he put ALL of his research there, or is it confined to what was background for what wound up in the book?! I know he was on the trail of Lee in Florida and apparently located him and his address...which caused him to move. At the latter address [which was once posted by someone on the 'other' Forum], I did a Google Earth search of the address and 'what do you know', it showed a normal suburban neighborhood, but the house that Lee supposedly lived in had been ALTERED - the house, cars and part of the yard were obscured by some computer generated fake [and much oversized] 'roof'. FWIW.
    My understanding is that most of the research is at Baylor - not all by any means made it to the book... His work with the evidence back and forth from Dallas is very strong.

    Very interesting about the altered address... would love to see that.

    btw - the Baylor site has a downloadable index that I parsed into an Excel sheet...
    I don't see here we can upload excel... Would have offered mine up -

    but the process is not too tuf....

    DJ

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    Charles Drago once said that "Nagell and others at his level are, for the most part, getting wind of the plot as part of the plot."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilios Vazakas View Post
    Charles Drago once said that "Nagell and others at his level are, for the most part, getting wind of the plot as part of the plot."
    That would require a bit more discussion imo.... If a rogue element of the KGB creates the manchurian candidate like killer in HARVEY... it makes sense that others in the know within the USSR
    would want to counteract that plan... (in the context of Golitsyn whereby the "peace" and "defeat" of the USSR was a part of a much bigger plan to lull the WEST into a deep sleep)

    Nagell is not sure who he is working for with regards to Oswald. Yet I would like to hear a more detailed version of the quote above and how RCN fits
    DJ

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