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Thread: Detailed discussion and analysis of the H&L evidence

  1. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Johnson View Post
    and yet you then say you are only talking about H&L and how it's ground-breaking... you can see my confusion?
    I am responding to this statement without having read another word of your post WHICH I will read.

    Dawn said it was groundbreaking. I wanted to know why Dawn thought it was groundbreaking.

    Now, time to continue with the rest of your post. I am intrigued by H&L At this point have no opinion.

    SHEESH!

    Now, I will continue on to read the rest of your post.

    All the best!!
    You too Lauren... some subjects are simply nearer and dearer to us than others.... I mean no disrespect to you, your question to Dawn or your position...

    After all these years of research and analysis... I clearly see that SPONSORS and the JFK assassination have very little to do with one another...

    That realization minimizes virtually all the work I've done this last decade or so... to a study of false minutia, leading to more false minutia.

    Dawn and I spoke for over an hour, for the first time, this weekend. I got to know her and her me beyond these pages.
    I spent months working it thru with John Armstrong and call him a true friend, and would not dare minimize his contribution

    If you would send me your email, I would gladly send you the same spreadsheet I sent her and many others...

    I don't think she said "game-changer":

    Understanding that there were two distinct LHOs in this case is, to me, as important as the understanding of just why JFK was assassinated and how it connects to the fascism of today.
    As I stated in a round about way, I don't think Dawn's statement here is accurate... WHY he was killed has little to do with H&L.
    H&L is about the corruptness of our institutions, the power of the MICC and our pseudo-protective state...

    It's about the straight-faced lying that leads thru Colin Powell's UN speech to our righteous indignation at Russian's invasion of the Ukraine...

    Who the F%^k are we, given what we've done in the name of capitalism and democracy, to tell Russia what to do.
    And why would Putin even push us?


    I hope you would agree that it will be the Sponsors who benefit most from whatever happens short of annihilation.


    War is, and has been, the essential economic stabilizer of modern societies.

    Sometimes you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places
    if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  2. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Johnson View Post
    "most current JFK research doesn't change anything" - related to H&L or all of it in general Lauren?
    All of it. If Douglass is largely correct about the Why He Died?, that leaves his next question, And Why It Matters? To my mind, any JFK research needs to speak to these two questions, or they become about curiosities -- dotting i's and crossing t's.

    The Sean Murphy thread at EF was remarkable in both its tone and respect for opinions. But to say LHO really was on the front steps -- hardly moving -- still to my mind does not address the two questions above.

    I'll read the rest of this post a little later. I am just responding to this sentence.
    I consider Douglass' book the most important ever written on this case. In a field where TONS of extremely important books have been written. Because for me from the start the issue was Why and what would result. Anyone who knows this case as well as true history knows the answer to both those questions.
    I thank David for his reply also and agree with it.
    It's like mixing apples and oranges Lauren. Learning about this program of using doubles was for me nearly akin to learning about the Ghelan org. in 1975. Everyone knew there were LHO look alikes but that there were actually two different people living two lives with two mothers with the same name was just another large layer for me. It does not go to the very important questions you posed, why he died and why it matters, but to the level of the complexity of the plot. When Harvey was first brought over I agree that it was to be later sent back as a spy. Plus...whatever he came in handy for. No-one could have anticipated the likes of JFK. Suddenly the two had a much larger purpose.
    Due to work constraints I cannot flesh this out as much as I would like. Just trying to hit on some of the main points. Lunch break now over and back to work. Billable hours, ya know.

  3. #13

    Default

    David you remind me of Chief Inspector Jane Tennison in the British Prime Suspect series. I remember she would take a drag on a cigarette and say something like, 'OK, then. We start over. We look at everything all over again. I am cancelling all leave and vacations. Get started.' Even her staff who by this time will follow her into the jaws of hell, look at her with stunned disbelief. And of course, they get the bad guy.

    To this day, my wife suspects that I love JT more than her.

    I get your points and we are on the same page. I now understand you much better now!

    Dawn, you said this:
    No-one could have anticipated the likes of JFK. Suddenly the two had a much larger purpose.
    I agree, ... but there is the long gone voice of Charlie Drago's notion speculating that JFK was selected for sacrifice before he was POTUS. I can't make that one go away. I wished I could. I dismissed it out of hand. Now it haunts me.
    "We'll know our disinformation campaign is complete when everything the American public believes is false." --William J. Casey, D.C.I

    "We will lead every revolution against us." --Theodore Herzl

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Johnson View Post
    David you remind me of Chief Inspector Jane Tennison in the British Prime Suspect series. I remember she would take a drag on a cigarette and say something like, 'OK, then. We start over. We look at everything all over again. I am cancelling all leave and vacations. Get started.' Even her staff who by this time will follow her into the jaws of hell, look at her with stunned disbelief. And of course, they get the bad guy.

    To this day, my wife suspects that I love JT more than her.

    I get your points and we are on the same page. I now understand you much better now!

    Dawn, you said this:
    No-one could have anticipated the likes of JFK. Suddenly the two had a much larger purpose.
    I agree, ... but there is the long gone voice of Charlie Drago's notion speculating that JFK was selected for sacrifice before he was POTUS. I can't make that one go away. I wished I could. I dismissed it out of hand. Now it haunts me.

    Whew... I'm so glad I was able to make myself clear...


    Onto the Drago mindf*^k.

    "JFK was selected for sacrifice before he was POTUS"

    Can this be proven or disproven - or is this just a shock value sound bite which anyone can conjur up after the fact?

    i.e. - Putin planned for Sochi and world attention years before to garner attention and increase his status as a world leader so he could compete with the US on the same playing field with the invasion of the Ukraine...


    In his mind's eye, any fear that can be spread to the masses benefits the Sponsor... and of course we agree...
    yet his point is rendered moot if 115,000 people voted the other way...

    The murder of the senator from MA is not the same as the death of the POTUS...

    I hope this POV helps you sleep better.... anyone can throw out a theory... proof on the other hand is a bit more difficult

    DJ
    Sometimes you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places
    if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lauren Johnson View Post
    David you remind me of Chief Inspector Jane Tennison in the British Prime Suspect series. I remember she would take a drag on a cigarette and say something like, 'OK, then. We start over. We look at everything all over again. I am cancelling all leave and vacations. Get started.' Even her staff who by this time will follow her into the jaws of hell, look at her with stunned disbelief. And of course, they get the bad guy.

    To this day, my wife suspects that I love JT more than her.

    I get your points and we are on the same page. I now understand you much better now!

    Dawn, you said this:
    No-one could have anticipated the likes of JFK. Suddenly the two had a much larger purpose.
    I agree, ... but there is the long gone voice of Charlie Drago's notion speculating that JFK was selected for sacrifice before he was POTUS. I can't make that one go away. I wished I could. I dismissed it out of hand. Now it haunts me.
    I can easily dismiss it out of hand. Why on earth would anyone select JFK for sacrifice before he did the things as POTUS that got him assassinated? During the debates he came across as more Cold war oriented than was Nixon. CD has lots of fine ideas and thoughts. However- TO ME- this is not one of them.

  6. #16

    Default Harvey, Lee and Tippit

    Someone told Dawn Meredith that the John Armstrong speech she read at COPA last year was the same as John's story Jim DiEugenio published in Probe in 1998. This is a ridiculous and untrue complaint. As late as the day before Dawn's talk, I spent hours on the phone with John as he made last-minute changes to fit the material from the new write-up below into the time allotted. There are many differences between the two pieces. Compare, for example, the write-ups on the Oswald/Hidell wallet that miraculously appeared at 10th and Patton along with Westbrook.

    The link to "Harvey, Lee and Tippit" Jim published in 1998 is here: http://www.ctka.net/pr198-jfk.html

    Below, posted here with permission of the author, is the full version of John's new write-up. Dawn read a shortened version of this. Comments would be appreciated.

    # # #

    HARVEY, wearing a long-sleeved brown shirt, leaves Dealey Plaza. A few minutes after President Kennedy was shot HARVEY Oswald, wearing a long-sleeve brown shirt, left the book depository. Three women working in the Dal-Tex building directly across the street said they saw Jack Ruby give Oswald a pistol. HARVEY Oswald walked east on Elm Street and saw a city bus stopped in traffic as he was approaching Griffin St. He walked to the bus and began pounding on the door. Driver Cecil McWatters opened the door and allowed HARVEY Oswald, and a blond woman, to board the bus around 12:40 PM. The bus was soon stalled in traffic and about 4 minutes later Oswald got up from his seat, obtained a bus transfer, and left the bus via the front door. The blond woman left the bus at the same time via the rear door. This blond woman may have been following Oswald, may have followed him to Whaley's cab, and may have been the woman who asked Whaley to call a taxi for her. HARVEY Oswald walked three blocks south on Lamar St. toward the Greyhound Bus station and got into William Whaley's taxi. Whaley said, "He wasn't in any hurry. He wasn't nervous or anything." Oswald was wearing a dark brown button-up shirt, a t-shirt, and a grey jacket. As Whaley was driving Oswald toward Oak Cliff, two unidentified police officers boarded McWatters bus with pistols drawn, as described by Roy Milton Jones in CE 2641.

    THE PRE-ARRANGED MURDER OF OFFICER J.D. TIPPITT. As the evidence that follows will show, the murder of Dallas Police officer J.D. Tippit was pre-arranged and involved LEE Oswald and at least one high-ranking Dallas Police officer. Tippit was shot and killed at 10th & Patton by LEE Oswald, who then hurried to the Texas Theater and hid in the balcony. A wallet that contained identification for both Lee Harvey Oswald and Alek Hidell suddenly appeared in the hands of a Dallas Police Captain at the scene of the murder, and then disappeared 10 minutes later and was never seen again.

    J.D. Tippit at the Gloco station.
    As Whaley drove south on Zang Blvd. his taxi passed by Officer J.D. Tippit, who was observed by 5 witnesses sitting in his patrol car at the GLOCO station (1502 N. Zang Blvd) watching traffic. Tippit knew both HARVEY and LEE and his assignment that day may have been to drive both young men to the Texas Theater. Whaley turned left on N. Beckley and stopped in the 700 block near Neeley Street about 12:54 PM. HARVEY Oswald got out of the taxi and began walking to his rooming house about three and a half blocks away. He arrived just before 1:00 PM and spent a few minutes changing his pants and work shirt (t-shirt) in his room.
    Tippit, sitting in his patrol car at the GLOCO station, may have been waiting for Oswald to get off of McWatters bus across the street at the bus stop. But when the bus failed to arrive Tippit became alarmed and quickly left the GLOCO station. A minute or two later, at 12:54 PM, Tippit reported his position as Lancaster and 8th. He then turned right on Jefferson Blvd and drove two miles (3-4 minutes) to the Top Ten Record Store. Tippit parked his patrol car, entered the store, and asked store clerk Louis Cortinas for permission to make a phone call. Tippit said nothing during the call, hung up the phone, hurried out to his car, and drove north across Jefferson Blvd. (circa 1:00 PM). A few minutes later it was most likely Tippit in his patrol car who drove slowly past HARVEY Oswald's rooming house at 1026 N. Beckley. If this black police car was not Tippit's then who's car was it?Oswald was in his small room (at right) changing clothes and probably heard Tippit as he honked the horn in his patrol car before driving around the corner of Beckley and Zang (circa 1:03). Out of the thousands of houses in Oak Cliff, why would a police car slowly drive past Oswald's rooming house and honk the horn only minutes after he (Oswald) arrived? If Jack Ruby gave HARVEY Oswald a pistol, as witnessed by the three women from the Dal-Tex Bldg., then he may have left the holster in his room and taken the pistol with him to the theater.

    Oswald left the rooming house wearing the dark brown long-sleeve shirt and white t-shirt, and was last seen by his landlady standing at the corner of Beckley & Zang (circa 1:03-1:04 PM). HARVEY Oswald probably got into Tippit's car and 2-3 minutes later arrived in the alley behind the Texas Theater at 231 W. Jefferson (1.2 miles-1:05-1:07 PM). He then walked, sight unseen, from the alley through the narrow passageway adjacent to the theater, and then emerged on Jefferson Blvd only a few yards from theater cashier Julia Postal. HARVEY Oswald, wearing a long-sleeve brown shirt, purchased a ticket from Julia Postal and walked into the theater (circa 1:07-1:08 PM). Concession attendant Butch Burroughs said that Oswald arrived between 1:00 PM and 1:07 PM (Officer Tippit was shot around 1:15 PM, according to the Warren Commission). Two minutes after dropping HARVEY Oswald off at the theater Tippit arrived at 10th & Patton, .7 mile east of the theater (circa 1:07-1:09 PM).

    BACK AT THE BOOK DEPOSITORY, LEE OSWALD LEAVES DEALEY PLAZA WEARING A WHITE T-SHIRT. After shots were fired at President Kennedy, LEE Oswald walked through the office of the Book Depository and was seen by Mrs. Reid carrying a coke and wearing a white t-shirt. He then left the building and walked west on the Elm Street extension in front of the TSBD and waited. At 12:40 PM a light colored Nash Rambler station wagon, with a chrome luggage rack, pulled over to the curb and stopped. Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig heard a shrill whistle, which attracted his attention, and watched as a young man wearing a white t-shirt walked over to the car and got in. Craig identified the man as (LEE) Harvey Oswald. Marvin Robinson was driving his Cadillac directly behind the Nash Rambler when it suddenly stopped. Robinson saw a white male hurry over to the car and get in. Robinson's employee, Roy Cooper, was following him in a different vehicle and also saw the man hurry over and get into the car. Both men told the FBI the man who got into the Nash Rambler was (LEE) Harvey Oswald, but neither man was interviewed by the WC. Helen Forrest saw the same man run toward the Nash Rambler and get in. She said, "If it wasn't Oswald, it was his identical twin." Helen Forrest was never interviewed by the WC nor was her statement published in the WC volumes. The Nash Rambler was last seen driving under the triple overpass with LEE Oswald, who may have been told by his handlers to meet DPD Officer JD Tippit at Ruby's apartment, or at his (LEE Oswald's) apartment at 507 E. 10th or somewhere along 10th St. After getting into the Nash Rambler, but before meeting up with Officer Tippit near 10th & Patton, LEE Oswald acquired a gun, bullets, and a light colored medium-size jacket which he wore over his white t-shirt.


    LEE Oswald on East 10th St. in Oak Cliff. About 1:03 PM LEE Oswald was seen by several witnesses in the Oak Cliff suburb of Dallas walking west near the corner of 10th St. & Marsalis--over a mile away from HARVEY Oswald's rooming house. LEE Oswald was only three blocks north of Jack Ruby's apartment (223 S. Ewing), where he had been seen the night before by a guest of Ruby's next door neighbor (Helen McIntosh). Four blocks from Ruby's apartment was a small, single story house at 511 E. 10th that was owned by attorney Dick Loomis, Sr., and his wife. Mrs. Loomis was a housewife and President of the Oak Cliff Fine Arts Club. She told FBI agents Griffin and Carter that a young couple, who were identical to LEE Harvey and Marina Oswald, lived next door in an apartment complex at 507 E. 10th (13 apartments) about one week before the assassination. She saw Marina and her infant child in front of her home and recalled that Marina had jet black hair. She said Marina wore very plain clothing and on one occasion wore a light blouse and plaid skirt and on another occasion a dark blouse and the same plaid skirt. She once saw a heavy-set man visit the apartment next door and presumed it was Ruby. FBI agent James Hosty, who never met Oswald face-to-face prior to November 22, 1963, told fellow FBI agent Carver Gayton that he left notes under Oswald's apartment door. But the Warren Commission reported that Oswald lived either at his rooming house (1026 N. Beckley) or at Ruth Paine's house in Irving, TX, neither of which was an apartment. Hosty could have left notes under the door at several of LEE Oswald's previous apartments including 507 E. 10th, 1106 Diceman Avenue, or an apartment in Oak Lawn that Ruby rented for Oswald (according to DPD informant T-1).


    Mr. Clark worked as a barber at the 10th Street Barber Shop, 620 E. 10th, two blocks north of Jack Ruby's apartment. Clark told FBI agent Carl Underhill (11/29/63) that he "had seen a man whom he would bet his life on was Oswald passing the shop in a great hurry and had commented on same to a customer in the chair." (SEE MAP) Construction worker William Lawrence Smith was walking east toward the Town and Country Cafe (604 E 10th) for lunch shortly after 1:00 PM. Smith "felt sure that the man who walked by him going west on 10th St. was LEE Harvey Oswald" (interview of Smith by SA Brookhart 1/13/64). Jimmy Burt, 505 E. 10th, was across the street from the construction site where Smith was working and watched the same man as he continued walking west. Burt described the man (LEE Oswald) as a white male, approximately 5'8", wearing a light short jacket (interview of Burt by SA Christianson and Acklin 12/16/63). William Arthur Smith was with Burt at the time and described the same man as "a white male, about 5'7" to 5'8", 20 to 25 years of age, 150-160, wearing a white shirt, light brown jacket and dark pants (interview of Smith by SA Ward and Basham 12/13/63). Both Burt and Smith watched this unknown man as he continued walking toward 10th & Patton, and saw him walk over to a black police squad car and begin speaking with the officer (circa 1:08 PM). After the assassination, both men were shown (HARVEY) Oswald's photograph and both men said this was not the man who shot Tippit

    As LEE Oswald began talking with Tippit near 10th & Patton, "HARVEY Oswald" was .7 mile west inside the Texas Theater. HARVEY purchased popcorn from Burroughs and then walked into the lower level and took a seat next to a pregnant woman. Within a few minutes both Oswald and the woman got up from their seats. Oswald walked into the concession area and then back into the lower level and took a seat next to Jack Davis in the first row on the right side. Davis remembered that Oswald was sitting next to him, in the near empty theater, as the opening credits to the movie began (a few minutes before 1:20 PM). After sitting next to Davis for a few minutes, Oswald got up and walked past empty seats to the small aisle on the right side of the theater and into the concession area. Davis watched (HARVEY) Oswald as he again re-entered the theater and took a seat next to a man on the back row, directly across the aisle from Davis. Within a few minutes HARVEY Oswald got up and once again returned to the concession area. He returned a few minutes later and took a seat across the aisle from Mr. Davis, and then moved to another seat on the fourth row. It appeared to Davis as though (HARVEY) Oswald was looking for someone, perhaps a contact.

    While HARVEY Oswald was sitting in the darkened Texas Theater, Tippit was talking with LEE Oswald--the same man Tippit saw at the Dobbs Restaurant two days earlier. Tippit had already driven HARVEY Oswald to the Texas Theater, and his next assignment may have been to drive LEE Oswald to the theater or perhaps to another location. Tippit and LEE Oswald may have discussed this during their brief, "friendly" conversation through the passenger side car window. But events that soon followed suggest that LEE Oswald's pre-arranged assignment was to kill Tippit (which he did by intentionally shooting him in the head), frame HARVEY for the murder (the wallet held by Capt. Westbrook at the murder scene--a wallet that contained identification for Lee Harvey Oswald), and draw police to the Texas Theater (which he did by running into the theater without purchasing a ticket). Tippit was one of the few people who knew and came in contact with both HARVEY and LEE on November 22, knew where they lived, and therefore had to be eliminated.

    Jack Roy Tatum was driving east on 10th St. As he approached the squad car, Tatum noticed a young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side window of the squad car. Tatum said, "It looked as if Oswald and Tippit were talking to each other.... It was almost as if Tippit knew Oswald." Tatum said, "he had on a light colored zipper jacket, dark trousers and what looked like a t-shirt on." Tatum later told HSCA investigator Moriarty that he did not see Oswald wearing a brown shirt, just a white t-shirt. He also remembered Oswald "as having dark hair, dark eyes of medium build and around 5'10." At the point where Tatum drove slowly past Tippit's squad car, he was less than 10 ft from Oswald.

    After talking briefly with LEE Oswald through the rolled-down window, Tippit got out of his patrol car. As he began walking toward the front of the patrol car LEE Oswald pulled his pistol and began shooting Tippit. After Tippit fell to the ground LEE Oswald walked toward him and deliberately shot him in the head (around 1:08-1:09 PM). Jack Tatum said, "whoever shot Tippit was determined that he shouldn't live and he was determined to finish the job." Tippit had to be eliminated, because he was one of the few people who knew both HARVEY and LEE.

    After shooting Tippit, LEE Oswald began walking south on Patton toward Jefferson Blvd. while removing the empty shells from his gun and tossing them on the ground. Domingo Benavides, who was sitting in his truck on the opposite side of the street facing Tippit's car, watched Oswald as he left the scene. He remembered, "the back of his (LEE Oswald's) head seemed like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapering off. His hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off." HARVEY Oswald's hairline, as we know from numerous photographs taken at the police station, extended well down his neck and past his collar line --- it was not "squared off" as described by Benavides.

    Witness Helen Markham told the WC that Oswald was "wearing a light gray looking jacket and kind of dark trousers" and said the shooting occurred at 1:06 PM. T.F. Bowley was driving west on 10th Street and did not see the shooting. He arrived at the scene and used the police radio to report the shooting. Bowley looked at his watch--the time was 1:10 PM (CE 2003). An original DPD police transcript, found in the National Archives, lists the time of transmission as 1:10 PM. (Image at left shows Tippit's car at the murder scene. The white car on the left side of the photo is at the approximate location of Benavides during the shooting.)

    LEE Oswald walked past taxi driver WW Scoggins, parked near the corner of 10th & Patton, who said Oswald wore dark trousers and a light shirt. Scoggins then called his dispatcher to report the shooting and his dispatcher called for an ambulance. As LEE Oswald continued walking north on Patton, Ted Callaway saw him at a distance of about 60 ft. and described him as "white male, 27, 5'11", 165 lbs, black wavy hair, fair complected, wearing a light gray Eisenhower type jacket, dark trousers, and a white shirt" (CE 705, pg 27). When interviewed and filmed many years later, Callaway again said, "he had on a white Eisenhower type jacket and a white t-shirt"--once againno brown shirt, just a white T-shirt. The next person to see LEE Oswald was Warren Reynolds, part owner of Johnny Reynolds Used Car Lot at the corner of Patton and Jefferson Blvd. Reynolds followed Oswald a short distance and last saw him walking past the Ballew Texaco Station. On January 22, 1964, FBI agents Kesler and Mitchem showed a photograph of Lee HARVEY Oswald to Reynolds, at which time he advised the two agents that he would hesitate to definitely identify the man shown in the photograph as the shooter. A few minutes later Robert and Mary Brock saw LEE Oswald as he walked past the Ballew Texaco Station, 600 Jefferson Blvd. Mary said Oswald was wearing "light clothing, a light colored jacket and with his hands in his pocket" (interview of Brock by SAs Kesler and Mitchem 1/22/64). As he walked through the parking area adjacent to the Texaco station, LEE Oswald removed his medium-size jacket and threw it under a car, which left him wearing only a white t-shirt, and carrying a loaded pistol. Not one person saw LEE Oswald with a long-sleeved brown shirt, but several people saw him wearing a white t-shirt. LEE Oswald's destination, almost certainly chosen by his handlers, was the Texas Theater--a 15 minute walk from 10th & Patton.


    At approximately 1:15 PM an ambulance was dispatched from Dudley Hughes Funeral Home and arrived at 10th & Patton within a minute. Tippit's body was quickly loaded into the ambulance by Clayton Butler and Eddie Kinsley and driven to a nearby Methodist Hospital where he was pronounced dead on arrival by Dr. Liquori around 1:22 PM. Among the items removed from Tippit at the hospital and taken to the police station was one "black billfold." At 1:22 PM a DPD dispatch reported: "Last seen about the 300 block East Jefferson. He's a white male about 30, 5'8," Black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks."

    Johnny Brewer told police that he first saw Oswald suspiciously lurking near his doorway at Hardy's Shoe Store around 1:30 PM. But Brewer did not see the man who was arrested by the police, wearing a brown shirt and lurking near his doorway at 1:30 pm, because the man wearing the brown shirt (HARVEY Oswald) had been inside the Texas Theater for the past 20 minutes. Brewer may have seen someone "lurking" near Hardy's Shoe Store, and he apparently followed that person (LEE Oswald) to the Texas Theater. Around 1:30 PM, cashier Julia Postal was watching her boss leave the theater walking west. At the same time LEE Oswald hurried past Postal, without buying a ticket, and ran up the stairs to the balcony. Brewer followed him into the theater and told Butch Burroughs about the suspicious man. Both men checked to make sure the two exit doors, which opened onto the alley at the rear of the building, had not been opened. While Burroughs stood by the west exit door, Brewer walked to the front of the theater and told Julia Postal to call the police because the man was still somewhere inside the theater. Burroughs remembered that Brewer appeared about 20 minutes after he (Burroughs) first saw HARVEY Oswald in the theater. Brewer then walked to the east exit door and remained there until the police arrived.

    After running into the theater there is a good possibility that LEE Oswald was going to quickly leave the theater through one of two exit doors that opened into the alley, leaving HARVEY Oswald in the theater. Burroughs and Brewer, watching the exit doors, may have prevented his departure. In the alley, behind the theater, a young man was standing next to a pickup truck with the engine running. After the police arrived Captain C.E. Talbert and some officers questioned the young man and searched the pickup, but made no police reports about the incident. Talbert testified before the Warren Commission, but at no time in over 20 pages of testimony was he asked, nor did he volunteer, anything about the Texas Theater, Oswald's arrest, or the young man in the alley (24H242). We will probably never know the name of this man nor will we know what he was doing in the alley while LEE Oswald was hiding in the balcony.

    THE WALLET AT 10TH & PATTON. Following the shooting, eight or nine people walked to Tippit's patrol car and saw him lying on the street. A few minutes later ambulance attendants Clayton Butler and Eddie Kinsley arrived and removed Tippit's body. DPD officers began to arrive at the scene and started to question witnesses as on-lookers gathered. But not one witness, not one ambulance driver, not one neighbor, not one on-looker and not one trained police officer saw a wallet lying on the street or in Tippit's car. Dallas Police Captain Westbrook, along with Sergeant Calvin Owens and assistant DA Bill Alexander, arrived a few minutes later. Westbrook heard over the police radio that a suspicious person had been seen running into a nearby library, and was immediately driven to that location. After returning to 10th & Patton a wallet suddenly appeared in Westbrook's hands with identification for Lee Harvey Oswald, which linked Oswald to Tippit's murder, and with identification for Alek Hidell that linked Hidell (Oswald) to the rifle found on the 6th floor of the Book Depository. Westbrook called out to FBI agent Bob Barrett and asked him if he knew anything about Oswald or Hidell. Barrett was unfamiliar with these names, but saw the wallet, along with Captain George Doughty, Sergeant Calvin Owens, Sergeant Kenneth Croy, accident investigator Howell Summers, and WFAA TV cameraman Ron Reiland. Reiland filmed police officers as they inspected and handled the wallet. The Dallas Police officers at 10th & Patton now knew, thanks to identification found in the wallet, that "Lee Harvey Oswald" was the prime suspect in Tippit's murder. Their next stop was the Texas Theater where HARVEY Oswald, wearing a long-sleeve brown shirt, was sitting in the 4th row in the lower level, while LEE Oswald, wearing a white t-shirt, was hiding in the balcony.

    Captain Westbrook was the ranking officer at 10th & Patton and knew police procedure as well as anyone. If Westbrook was not the person who brought the wallet to 10th & Patton, then he should have insisted on police reports to establish a "chain of custody" for the wallet, written a detailed report about the wallet and its contents, entered the wallet into evidence at DPD headquarters, and discussed the wallet with the Warren Commission. But not a single police report was written about the wallet and neither Westbrook, Owens, nor Croy mentioned nor was asked about the wallet by the Warren Commission. The fact that Captain Westbrook totally ignored police procedure about a crucial piece of evidence is reason to believe that Westbrook was the person responsible for bringing the wallet to 10th & Patton and, according to FBI agent Barrett, it was Westbrook who kept the wallet. This wallet was the single most important piece of evidence ever found prior to Oswald's arrest, yet ten minutes after it appeared this wallet disappeared and was never seen again.

    This disappearing wallet is PROOF that Tippit's murder was pre-planned. If Westbrook, or anyone else, had identification in their possession that would be used to identify a suspect in a murder, PRIOR TO THE MURDER, then that person had prior knowledge of a pre-planned assassination. The real significance of this wallet is that it shows that Westbrook knew, IN ADVAVCE, that HARVEY Oswald would be accused of Tippit's murder and that he would be linked to the assassination of President Kennedy. The only reason for the wallet to appear at 10th & Patton was to identify and frame Oswald. And the only reason for this wallet to disappear is that DPD officers removed HARVEY Oswald's wallet from his pants pocket while en route to the police station. Two wallets that contain nearly identical identification are unexplainable.After the assassination Captain Westbrook relocated to South Vietnam, where he served as a CIA special advisor to the Saigon Police.

    A DPD dispatch at 1:33 PM: "w/m/30 5'8", very slender build, black hair, a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks." A DPD dispatch at 1:45 PM: "Have information a suspect just went in the Texas Theater on West Jefferson ... supposed to be hiding in balcony" (17H418). With "Lee Harvey Oswald" as their prime suspect, Captain Westbrook and his police officers from 10th & Patton descended on the Texas Theater and entered the main floor from the rear entrance where Johnny Brewer was waiting. Brewer claimed that he pointed out (HARVEY) Oswald to the police inside the theater. However, this may not be true. A very close friend of Jack Ruby's, Tommy Rowe, worked at Hardy's Shoe Store with Brewer. In 1964 Rowe told friends, relatives, and JFK researchers that it was he, NOT Brewer, who pointed out (HARVEY) Oswald to the police in the dark of the Texas Theater. Rowe was so close to Jack Ruby that Rowe moved into Ruby's apartment when Ruby went to jail for killing HARVEY Oswald. Rowe was never interviewed by the DPD or FBI. But if Jack Ruby gave Oswald a defective pistol at the TSBD, as claimed by 3 women who worked at the Dal-Tex Building, and then telephoned Rowe with a description of HARVEY Oswald so he could identify HARVEY to the police inside the theater, then Ruby was much more involved in the assassination than we ever imagined.

    Other police officers began to enter the theater from the front and were told by a "young female" (probably Julia Postal) that the man they were looking for was in the balcony. Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson came face to face with a young man who was walking down the stairs to the lobby. Courson said, "that he was reasonably satisfied in his own mind" that this man was (LEE) Oswald. Dallas Police Lt. Cunningham and Detective John B. Toney may have questioned the same man. Cunningham said, "We were questioning a young man who was sitting on the stairs in the balcony when the manager told us the suspect was on the first floor." Toney said, "There was a young man sitting near the top of the stairs and we ascertained from the manager on duty that this subject had been in the theater since about 12:05 PM." But Julia Postal said the manager/owner of the theater, John Callahan, left for the day (at 1:30 PM) before the police arrived. The projectionist remained in the projection room while the only other employee (Burroughs) stood by the south exit door at the rear of the theater. This "manager on duty" was never identified.

    HARVEY Oswald, wearing a long-sleeved brown shirt, is arrested

    Inside the darkened theater Jack Ruby's friend, Tommy Rowe, directed the police to the man wearing the long sleeved brown shirt--HARVEY Oswald. As soon as the police arrested and handcuffed HARVEY Oswald, Capt. Westbrook told his officers "get him out of here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him." DON'T LET ANYBODY SEE HIM? This is a good indication that Westbrook knew that LEE Oswald was also in the theater, and was concerned that someone might notice there was a second "Oswald" in the theater. As HARVEY Oswald was taken out the front of the theater a DPD officer told Julia Postal, "we have our man on both counts." Julia said this was the first time she heard of Tippit's death and the officers arresting Oswald had identified him by calling his name-- "Oswald" (interview with Julia Postal by SA Carter 2/28/64).

    HARVEY Oswald, wearing a brown shirt, was brought out the front entrance of the Texas Theater, placed in a police car and driven to jail. Paul Bentley removed HARVEY Oswald's wallet from his left rear pocket en route to the DPD headquarters (along with Officers Carrol, Hill, Walker and Lyons) and found identification for "Lee Harvey Oswald" and "A. J. Hidell"--similar to the identification found in the wallet that had suddenly appeared in the hands of Captain Westbrook. The Dallas Police were now in possession of two wallets, both containing identification for Lee Harvey Oswald and Alek Hidell. These two wallets could have created serious problems, and alerted the public to the possibility of two Lee Harvey Oswalds, if properly identified as evidence and reported. But the wallet that first appeared in the hands of Capt. Westbrook was unexplainable. It could never, ever be made public, and quickly disappeared--last seen in the hands of Capt. Westbrook.

    Cashier Julia Postal told the Warren Commission that she sold 24 tickets that day. After HARVEY was arrested Lt. E.L. Cunningham, Detective E.E. Taylor, Detective John Toney, and officer C.F. Bentley were ordered to search and obtain the names and addresses of theater patrons. This list, or lists, contained the names of people who could have confirmed what Jack Davis said--that HARVEY Oswald was in the theater at or before 1:10 PM. This list would also have contained the name of the man confronted on the stairs leading to the balcony by Deputy Sheriff Courson, Cunningham, and Toney. This list could also have contained the name of Oswald's contact at the theater and the unidentified "manager on duty". But this list was never entered into police evidence, nor were there any police reports about this list, nor were any police officers asked about the names and/or identities of anyone on this list. The normal procedure would have been for these police officers to give their lists to the senior officer in charge at the theater, Captain Westbrook. But these lists quickly disappeared and no efforts were made to locate them. Just like the wallet at 10th & Patton and the identity of the man standing next his truck in the alley, these lists quickly disappeared and were never seen again.
    As HARVEY Oswald was en route to the police station Bernard Haire, owner of a hobby shop two doors east of the theater, saw the police escort a man out the rear of the theater. For the next 25 years Mr. Haire and other witnesses thought they had seen the arrest of Oswald. But there is no police report, no record of arrest, nor any mention of a person taken out the rear of the theater. There are, however, many police reports that state Oswald was arrested in the balcony. The police homicide report of Tippit's murder reads, "suspect was later arrested in the balcony of the Texas theater at 231 W. Jefferson." At least two other DPD documents reported the arrest occurred in the balcony. In his report to Captain Gannaway, Dallas Police Detective L.D. Stringfellow wrote: "On Novemberr 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater, 231 West Jefferson Blvd., and was charged with the murder of President John F. Kennedy and the murder of Officer JD Tippit." How could several experienced, career police officers and detectives make such mistakes? Perhaps LEE Oswald was arrested in the balcony, and then taken out the rear of the theater and released.The young man in the balcony, identified by Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson as LEE Oswald, may or may not have been arrested. He was probably the man that Mr. Haire saw escorted out the rear of the theater and driven away in a police car. Who would have assisted LEE Oswald and escorted him out the rear of the Texas Theater? Captain Westbrook had Oswald's wallet at 10th & Patton. Westbrook told DPD officers at 10th & Patton their suspect was Lee Harvey Oswald. And as HARVEY Oswald was being led out of the theater Westbrook told his officers, "don't let anybody see him." It is likely that Capt. Westbrook was given the lists of theater patrons, which soon disappeared. It is nearly certain that Capt. Westbrook, the senior officer in charge at the Texas Theater, knew about HARVEY and LEE. It is probable, that under Westbrook's supervision, LEE Oswald was escorted out the rear of the Texas Theater.
    At least two other DPD documents make the same "error." In his report to Captain Gannaway, Dallas Police Detective L.D. Stringfellow wrote: "On November 22, 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald was arrested in the balcony of the Texas Theater, 231 West Jefferson Blvd and was charged with the murder of President John F. Kennedy and the murder of Officer JD Tippit." How could several experienced, career police officers make such a mistake?


    • NOTE: There were a total of five Oswald wallets: a black plastic wallet (CE 1798); a red billfold found at Ruth Paine's (CE 2003 #382); a brown billfold found at Ruth Paine's (CE 2003 #114); a billfold taken from LHO upon arrest--initialed by HMM (Henry Moore), wallet and contents inventoried and photographed; and the Westbrook wallet, which was not initialed by police, not listed in inventory, not photographed, not mentioned by a single witness to the WC, HSCA, ARRB, etc. and disappeared, but not before is was filmed by WFAA TV and seen by FBI agent Barrett.


    LEE Oswald, still wearing a white t-shirt, was seen shortly after HARVEY Oswald's arrest

    HARVEY Oswald, sitting in the Dallas jail, now had both the CIA and FBI desperately trying to distance themselves from him, link him with Castro and/or Cuba, frame him for the assassination, hide his true identity, and create a legend that portrayed him as a "lone nut." LEE Oswald was not in jail, and was driving a two-tone blue 1957 Plymouth back and forth on Davis St., six blocks north of the Texas Theater. Oswald soon drove his car behind a large billboard and appeared to be hiding from the police who were patrolling the streets. T.F. White, a career mechanic who worked across the street at Mack Pate's Auto Service, was curious and walked toward the car. The man, sitting in the car with the engine running, was wearing a white t-shirt and looked directly at Mr. White. As White walked toward the car the driver quickly sped away throwing gravel with his rear tires. White wrote the make and model of the car and the license plate number (PP4537) in his notebook.

    Mr. White told FBI agent Charles Brown the man driving the car was (LEE) Oswald. The authorities soon determined the license plates were registered to a two-tone blue 1957 Plymouth that was owned by Tippit's best friend, Carl Mather, an employee of Collins Radio (a very important CIA contractor). So, LEE Oswald murdered Tippit and an hour later was driving a car owned by Tippit's best friend, Carl Mather. Wes Wise (later the Mayor of Dallas), accompanied by a CBS reporter, interviewed Carl and Barbara Mather over dinner. Barbara Mather was calm, but Carl Mather was so upset and agitated that he was unable to eat. Years later Carl Mather agreed to be interviewed by the HSCA, but not before insisting on a grant of immunity. Ken Porter, another employee of Collins Radio, quit his job after the assassination, divorced his wife, and married Oswald's widow--Marina. In its report of the Oswald sighting in Mather's car, the FBI changed the two-tone blue 1957 Plymouth to a red Ford Falcon. This allowed Carl Mather's wife, Barbara, to tell the FBI that they had never owned a red car.The fate of HARVEY Oswald, in Dallas Police custody until he was killed by Jack Ruby, is well-known. But LEE Oswald's whereabouts following the assassination become increasingly difficult to follow. One intriguing account of his possible escape from the Dallas area comes from a decorated U.S. Air Force 20-year veteran named Robert Vinson. Vinson said that on the afternoon of November 22 he was a passenger on a nearly deserted C-54 cargo plane that departed from Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland. Soon after the assassination the plane was diverted and landed on what appeared to be a road under construction near the Trinity River south of Dallas. There, Vinson said, a Jeep carrying two men and a driver pulled up to the plane and the two passengers came aboard. Vinson said the taller man might have been Cuban, and, after he saw televised pictures of Lee HARVEY Oswald, he felt the shorter man "looked an awful lot like Oswald." The flight continued to an Air Force Base in Roswell, New Mexico, where all the passengers deplaned. Vinson said he was told the entire base was on lockdown until later in the evening.
    • # # #

  7. Default

    An amazing and detailed write-up to be sure Jim....

    Yet we are trying to simplify the presentation to aid understanding... https://harveyandlee.net/~harveyan/N...ovember_22.htm is the page where all this is presented and in full context with the other links and evidence alos at that site...

    Let's take a look at the very first point: HARVEY, wearing a long-sleeved brown shirt,leaves Dealey Plaza
    and the following supporting evidence...


    On page 819 of H&L we find this:

    NOTE: David Belin, Joseph Ball and Commission members heard testimonythat theywere unable to reconcile. They did not understand that Mrs. Reid sawLee Oswald, wearing
    a short-sleeved white T-shirt and carrying a bottle of Coke, passthrough the TSBD
    office only moments before Truly and Baker confronted Harvey Oswald inthe lunchroomwearing a long-sleeved brown shirt.

    That encounter is very questionable given what we have in Baker's affidavit from that day... not the coordinated testimonies of Truly and Baker months later...

    I am NOT disputing that HARVEY was wearing the brown Briarloom shirt found in his room's dresser... as he left the TSBD.
    or that LEE was seen by Reid wearing only the T-Shirt... if it was LEE with the coke leaving the lunchroom past Reid, how could it have been HARVEY who Baker and Truly supposedly encounter only seconds before?

    ----
    This is from the signed affidavit of a DPD police officer... is this meaningless evidence or what actually happened? If this is a true account given that afternoon, what does that do to the assumptions that follow in that essay?

    As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket

    No lunchroom, no coke, no windowed-door... none of that.
    and NOT on the 2nd floor but in the stairway itself higher up.... would that not have REDUCED the time needed for this encounter and have been even MORE incriminating to Oswald than the ficticious Lunchroom encounter?
    If this is NOT OSWALD... who was it? Truly of course is never asked that question.

    p.819 continues:
    The rear stairway was almost totally dark as Lee Oswald and the man in the brown jacket descended from the 6th to the 1st floor.

    In the article you post there is no mention of Adams walking down the stairs encountering no one, hearing no one... and the essay you posted does not discuss the Baker Affidavit v testimony problems.

    yet you do offer: Three women working in the Dal-Tex building directly across the street said they saw Jack Ruby give Oswald a pistol. Without a source or reference. If you are aware of the source of this info please post as this is a critical statement with specific implications... without corroboration, a reference or a source document... I am at a loss as to how it can be reliable.

    To follow - I understood it was LEE with which Ruby was involved, not HARVEY... why would Ruby be giving anything to HARVEY or risk being seen with him in broad daylight outside the TSBD handing him a gun ?

    ----

    Let me be clear - I AGREE WITH JOHN ABOUT LEE KILLING TIPPIT.... the identifications are there, the preamble is corroborated... the timing is correct.

    Yet reading further in the essay you posted:
    If Jack Ruby gave HARVEY Oswald a pistol, as witnessed by the three women from the Dal-Tex Bldg., then he may have left the holster in his room and taken the pistol with him to the theater

    Why is John doubting the direct evidence corroborated by three people - unless the evidence for such an occurance is not as iconclad as one would expect?
    (I've discussed material with John which he excluded from the book due to its sensational implications and lack of ironclad sourcing... he did not want that muddying up the already very deep waters.... if there are three women's statements I have yet to find them)
    ----

    We have HARVEY at the Texas Theater between 1:05 and 1:15... with no mention of how he might have gotten there....
    p.832
    At 1:00 pm Harvey Oswald was changing clothes at 1026 N. Beckley and RoyTruly had not yet told DPD Captain Fritz that Oswald was missing from the building.
    Oswald would not be arrested for nearly an hour and his name was not known to thepublic.

    I had originally thought the honking car picks him up and drops him near the theater... and found that the driver of #207, Valentine, and the car itself was at Elm/Houston where the keys are given to Putnam. Valentine claims to have helped in the search of the TSBD so he and the car were there prior to 1pm*... yet these keys and car are not mentioned again until 3:30.... http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/putnam1.htm

    Sgt Putnam here was only questioned about his role on Nov 26th and the killing of Oswald. Between 12:47 and 3:30 we have no record of where car #207 might be.
    The last transmission I have for Putnam is the 12:47 one... he obviously did not radio from his car after that...

    12:41 60 (Sgt. J.A. Putnam) 60
    12:41 Dispatcher 60
    12:41 60 (Sgt. J.A. Putnam) Police garage.
    12:41 Dispatcher 10-4.

    *12:47 60 (Sgt. J.A. Putnam) Yes, I have just arrived at Elm and Houston now. 12:47


    Car 207 at Beckley 1663-001.gif

    While if you read both Fritz's notes and Kelly's notes they both said that HARVEY tells them he took the bus all the way to the Theater until they remind him of a cab ride. HARVEY's response is one of the few directly quoted comments from Oswald, which of course is absurb given the time delay in writing up these notes... Fritz sure goes out of his way to get the bus to cab to home sequence in there...

    I could go on Jim... my purpose here is not to find the inconsistencies but to ask that we not inundate the reader with pages of text without links to references and evidence....

    My primary focus for almost a year now has been to make H&L more accessible, more understandable and ultimately as accepted as wound alteration or frontal shots...
    presenting info that is obviously in conflict with other info without further explanation can leave our intended audience confused....

    I'd prefer not taking 4 steps back for every 1 step forward... please remember that next to you I am one of John's biggest supporters... we both know he has moved on from this for very good reason... he is tired of making this HIS explanation and having to defend it... this is and has always been about the Evidence he found in places no one else looked, and leads he followed no one even knew about.

    harveyandlee.net speaks for itself... please allow me to assist in culling it down to digestible bites HERE, with all the necessary back-up along with my imagery work... while removing any speculation or theorizing that does not have the kind of supporting documentation we've come to expect...

    Peace
    DJ



    Oswald rode BUS HOME - Fritz notes - highlighted.jpg

    Oswald rode BUS to THEATER - KELLEY notes.jpg

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Sometimes you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places
    if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  8. #18

    Default

    David,

    I assume any detailed discussion is going to go into minutia at some stage. I'd just like to know the difference between "going into minute details" (that is being "detailed"), "minutia" and "false minutia". If you could provide an example of what you specifically refer to as "detailed" and what defines "minutia" as opposed to "false minutia", that'd be great.

    Thanks. Once I have your definitions down pat, I have a starting point for discussion.

  9. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg R Parker View Post
    David,

    I assume any detailed discussion is going to go into minutia at some stage. I'd just like to know the difference between "going into minute details" (that is being "detailed"), "minutia" and "false minutia". If you could provide an example of what you specifically refer to as "detailed" and what defines "minutia" as opposed to "false minutia", that'd be great.

    Thanks. Once I have your definitions down pat, I have a starting point for discussion.
    Sorry Greg, but I had truly not given the subject of definitional minutia that much thought....

    Why not just start your attempts to discredit the work using the same unsigned FBI documents as you did last time... and see where it takes you?
    You remember all those FBI interview reports on his BJHS classmates where each was asked about the 54-55 school year and none about 53-54... and each report was a cookie cutter of the last with only the name of the person changed...

    Better yet... Let's talk about Allen Felde and how his memory of Oswald in CE1962 which does not match the one offered by the military - CE1961.
    http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...ol23_0415a.htm

    Or the fact that MACS-9 / MCAF in Santa Anna where Henry Roussell Jr served with HARVEY is not the same as the base down the road El Toro where LEE and Allen Graf served in MAG-3, where a Major Gorsky was the Asst Provo Marshall who tells us that LEE was discharged from the El Toro base in March 1959.

    I look forward to you addressing this as well.

    (Note: Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some of the newer thought on this... Since our last discussion I've spent a lot of time digging deeper... Some of the conclusions in H&L have indeed needed to be revised and updated, just as Horne updated Lifton's work as well as his exposing the NPIC Zfilm charade... time and knowledge marches on as layer after layer of the onion gets peeled back)

    Good to hear from you again.
    DJ


    John discovered:

    12/20/58
    NOTE: The Commission failed to ask Delgado how he and Oswald's friendship, which took several weeks to develop, and their discussions about Castro and Cuba, which continued for several weeks, could have taken place "before Christmas. " These discussions took place during the time that Oswald bunked with Mack Osborne, Neil Dennis Tessem, Henry Roussel, Robert Allen, and Paul Hickey and occurred before he moved into Delgado's hut, #34. Once again, the Commission ignored these troublesome witnesses, who were with Harvey Oswald, from October thru December, while Lee Oswald was still in Japan. They relied on Marine Corps records which reported that (Lee) Oswald arrived at El Toro on December 22, but apparently never realized that El Toro ( MCAS) and Santa Ana (MCAF-MACS 9) were two very different installations.

    March 1959

    Henry Roussell, Jr. served with Harvey Oswald for 3 or 4 months in MACS 9 at Santa Ana (MACS 9) and was one of six Marines who shared a Quonset hut with him in 1958 (while Lee Oswald was still in Japan). His Aunt tells of how HARVEY speaks Russian VERY WELL
    Sometimes you get shown the light
    in the strangest of places
    if you look at it right.....
    R. Hunter

  10. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David Josephs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg R Parker View Post
    David,

    I assume any detailed discussion is going to go into minutia at some stage. I'd just like to know the difference between "going into minute details" (that is being "detailed"), "minutia" and "false minutia". If you could provide an example of what you specifically refer to as "detailed" and what defines "minutia" as opposed to "false minutia", that'd be great.

    Thanks. Once I have your definitions down pat, I have a starting point for discussion.
    Sorry Greg, but I had truly not given the subject of definitional minutia that much thought....

    David, this is what you wrote in this thread last October.

    After all these years of research and analysis... I clearly see that SPONSORS and the JFK assassination have very little to do with one another...

    That realization minimizes virtually all the work I've done this last decade or so... to a study of false minutia, leading to more false minutia.


    Are you really claiming you can't recall what you meant by "false minutia"? And that you can't tell me the difference between "detailed discussion" and any kind of minutia (whether false or otherwise)? If you can't recall what you said and meant in October last year on a subject you say you've researched the hell out of, how can you possibly rely upon witnesses to accurately recall people and events from years earlier?

    Why not just start your attempts to discredit the work using the same unsigned FBI documents as you did last time... and see where it takes you?
    You remember all those FBI interview reports on his BJHS classmates where each was asked about the 54-55 school year and none about 53-54... and each report was a cookie cutter of the last with only the name of the person changed...

    I don't have to "attempt" it, David. I've done it. Your fierce determination to close your senses to that fact, doesn't change that fact.

    And your insistence on claiming that all I have ever referred to is FBI reports is noted. So I'll remind you again. I have used contemporary news accounts, passport and ship records, among a variety of source materials in my investigation of "Harvey and Lee" claims. That your insistence that the FBI could alter a report meansthat they did alter numerous reports is noted. Your reliance on the "memory" of very carefully selected witnesses is noted. As is your complete lack of concern that Armstrong only had to interview those same witnesses, show them the FBI reports and ask a simple question , "is this what you told the FBI"? Instead, he avoided like the plague anyone who might not say what he needed.

    Better yet... Let's talk about Allen Felde and how his memory of Oswald in CE1962 which does not match the one offered by the military - CE1961.
    http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jf...ol23_0415a.htm

    What do you want to discuss? If you are not aware he is referring to the same place that is referred to in CE1961, I can't help you. Moreover, what sort of knuckle-headed conspirators would put two conflicting reports side by side like that? The only thing wrong with the Felde FBI document (which shows you are happy to use FBI docs when you think they help you) is that it refers to "WCRD" instead of "MCRD" - Marine Corp Recruitment Depot. Could no one in the H & L brains trust work that out? The only other issue is he is out in his approximate dates. But then, that is what research into memory shows is likely to happen with most people. I'd have trouble getting the year right, let alone the month.

    Or the fact that MACS-9 / MCAF in Santa Anna where Henry Roussell Jr served with HARVEY is not the same as the base down the road El Toro where LEE and Allen Graf served in MAG-3, where a Major Gorsky was the Asst Provo Marshall who tells us that LEE was discharged from the El Toro base in March 1959.

    Sorry David, but the very document you point to, specifically states it is the same place.
    http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=1139&relPageId=828
    4th Replacement Battalion .... yadda yadda yadda ... El Toro (Santa Ana) California.


    I look forward to you addressing this as well.

    Well, I have. Now if would finally address all these without attempts to change the subject?

    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t702-harvey-lee-the-early-years
    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t688-jacobi-hospital
    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t226-armstrong-s-magic-tonsillectomy-vanishing-scars
    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t435-why-palmer-mcbride-was-wrong
    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t349-what-odom-and-shasteen-discussed
    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t87-the-mrs-jack-d-tippit-phone-call
    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t287-edwin-ekdahl-s-height
    http://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t227-armstrong-s-magic-tooth-and-the-facts-about-harvey-at-beauregard

    (Note: Please take the time to familiarize yourself with some of the newer thought on this... Since our last discussion I've spent a lot of time digging deeper... Some of the conclusions in H&L have indeed needed to be revised and updated, just as Horne updated Lifton's work as well as his exposing the NPIC Zfilm charade... time and knowledge marches on as layer after layer of the onion gets peeled back)

    Have done! I'm impressed that you now believe the likes of Good Ol' Myra were coached. Nothing else explains how this was done on paper and in retrospect only when you have witnesses to "Harvey" all over the place.

    Good to hear from you again.
    DJ

    Well, I haven't been hiding under a bushel!

    John discovered:

    12/20/58
    NOTE: The Commission failed to ask Delgado how he and Oswald's friendship, which took several weeks to develop, and their discussions about Castro and Cuba, which continued for several weeks, could have taken place "before Christmas. " These discussions took place during the time that Oswald bunked with Mack Osborne, Neil Dennis Tessem, Henry Roussel, Robert Allen, and Paul Hickey and occurred before he moved into Delgado's hut, #34. Once again, the Commission ignored these troublesome witnesses, who were with Harvey Oswald, from October thru December, while Lee Oswald was still in Japan. They relied on Marine Corps records which reported that (Lee) Oswald arrived at El Toro on December 22, but apparently never realized that El Toro ( MCAS) and Santa Ana (MCAF-MACS 9) were two very different installations.

    March 1959

    Henry Roussell, Jr. served with Harvey Oswald for 3 or 4 months in MACS 9 at Santa Ana (MACS 9) and was one of six Marines who shared a Quonset hut with him in 1958 (while Lee Oswald was still in Japan). His Aunt tells of how HARVEY speaks Russian VERY WELL
    I await your rebuttals.

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