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Thread: Anatomy of the Second Floor Lunchroom Encounter

  1. Default

    Jim DiEugenio-

    You have embarrassed yourself with your endorsement of Sean Murphy's misbegotten lunchroom hoax. Is this why you've disappeared from this topic since April 21st? It's not easy, is it, to admit your mistakes? To firstly recognize that you, and your sidekick Albert Rossi, were completely fooled by this pernicious hoax hypothesis.

    It might go a long way toward healing the hostilities in our JFK research community if you owned up to your error. From time to time this sort of thing happens when disagreements are discussed- one side is correct, and the other side is wrong. And the side that is wrong refuses to admit that they are wrong. They lack the humility. They are less interested in discerning the truth, than in how they appear to their fellows- how they think they appear. And it is more painful for them, the longer they hang onto their wrong position, when truth finally wins the day.

    For several years I have argued, correctly and almost singlehandedly, for the reality of the lunchroom incident, against a barrage of opposition- the Murphy cultists. And one day you will thank me for this, Jim. I've had to defend the status quo because it is the truth, for God's sake. Their position is crackers. Theirs is a world where 2 + 2 = Sean Murphy, and anything that doesn't fit that world gets inverted so it does, or ignored completely.

    Imagine if Carl Sagan, at the tail-end of his career, had endorsed the moon-landing hoaxers. He'd be rightly characterized as having gone crackers in his later years. This is what the Murphy Tar Pits will do to your mammoth ego, Jim, if you don't get the hell out of them.

    Are you procrastinating, waiting for me to write yet another anti-hoax essay, so you can deliver your verdict? I work 6-7 days a week and am in no big hurry to compose that. My bullet-point critiques are in post #82 of June 22nd. And thanks to the diligent research of young Alan Ford, we can add a nice sharp arrow into my quiver- the Holmes testimony:

    (VII p. 302) HOLMES: Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just as I got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out into the crowd
    to see what it was all about."


    And Fritz's testimony also indicated that Oswald had been upstairs, in the lunchroom:

    (III p. 213) BALL: At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?
    FRITZ: They told me that down at the bookstore. I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him- I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they had met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.
    BALL: Did you question Oswald about that?
    FRITZ: Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.
    BALL: Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?
    FRITZ: He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.
    BALL: Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?
    FRITZ: He said he had a Coca-Cola.

    And Carolyn Arnold was an eyewitness to Oswald in that upstairs lunchroom at 12:25:

    Ms. Arnold was not given the opportunity to check her FBI statement of November 26 (WCD 5, p. 41), which claimed she caught a fleeting glimpse of Oswald just inside the front lobby at about 12:15.

    Her March FBI statement, which she was required to sign, stated that she left the Depository building "at about 12:25 PM" (XXII p. 635).

    In an interview with journalist Earl Golz in 1978, Carolyn Arnold claimed that "she saw Oswald in the 2nd-floor lunchroom as she was on her way out of the depository to watch the motorcade... She left the building at 12:25 p.m. " Oswald "was sitting there... in one of the booth seats on the right-hand side of the room as you go in. He was alone as usual and appeared to be having lunch. I did not speak to him but I recognized him clearly."

    She explicitly denied that her sighting of Oswald took place near the front door. "Why would I be looking back inside the building? That doesn't make any sense to me." (Dallas Morning News, 11/26/78)


    The FBI had lied about what Carolyn Arnold saw in her November 26 statement. And Bart Kamp dishonestly portrayed her instead as lying to Earl Golz in 1978, in order to cover a gap in Murphy's hoax. And you are aware of this, Jim, and are not being honest with the research community by endorsing Kamp's essay.

    Pathetic.


  2. Default NO

    (A) Aside from the cast of characters reading from their hastily contrived Script (Mrs. Reid, Mr. Truly, and Officer Baker), Did anyone else corroborate the duo’s movements together on the backstairs?

    Let’s take a Roll Call, asking some of the people who actually shared the same time & space sequentially with them…

    Sandra Styles, NO

    Victoria Adams, NO

    Harold Norman, NO

    James “Junior Jarman, NO

    Bonnie Ray Williams, NO

    Jack Dougherty, NO

    Dallas County Deputy-Sheriff John "I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside" Wiseman, NO

    The White Helmeted Motorcycle Officer on the West Elevator, NO

    (B) In respect to the possibility of being in two places at the same time…

    Could Mrs. Reid, or anyone for that matter, be upstairs while in actuality is downstairs? NO

    Could someone be in front of a building as Mrs. Reid was, yet be in the rear of the same simultaneously? NO

    Before
    the creation of a hastily contrived script the next day, Did Baker even recognize the wrongly accused as the MUCH older and heavier individual he
    really encountered the day before? NO

    IF Truly & Baker were together on the backstairs, Why isn’t their “reality” corroborated by a single human being?

    Just one individual would suffice, but they have nothing...save for a hastily contrived script full of inconsistencies, discussions off the record and a legion of lies.

    Who was that white helmeted motorcycle policeman ?, arriving up on the 5th floor via elevator, on the same one Jack Dougherty took downstairs?

    Why did Mrs. Lied, err Reid, outright lie?

    Does lying have anything to do with the truth, NO
    "A Lie Believed By Everybody Is Not The Truth"--unknown



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  3. Default Reliable evidence...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Ford View Post
    (A) Aside from the cast of characters reading from their hastily contrived Script (Mrs. Reid, Mr. Truly, and Officer Baker), Did anyone else corroborate the duo’s movements together on the backstairs?

    Let’s take a Roll Call, asking some of the people who actually shared the same time & space sequentially with them…

    Sandra Styles, NO

    Victoria Adams, NO

    Harold Norman, NO

    James “Junior Jarman, NO

    Bonnie Ray Williams, NO

    Jack Dougherty, NO

    Dallas County Deputy-Sheriff John "I went up the stairs to the 7th floor and started up into the attic and noticed that the door to the roof was locked on the inside" Wiseman, NO

    The White Helmeted Motorcycle Officer on the West Elevator, NO

    (B) In respect to the possibility of being in two places at the same time…

    Could Mrs. Reid, or anyone for that matter, be upstairs while in actuality is downstairs? NO

    Could someone be in front of a building as Mrs. Reid was, yet be in the rear of the same simultaneously? NO

    Before
    the creation of a hastily contrived script the next day, Did Baker even recognize the wrongly accused as the MUCH older and heavier individual he
    really encountered the day before? NO

    IF Truly & Baker were together on the backstairs, Why isn’t their “reality” corroborated by a single human being?

    Just one individual would suffice, but they have nothing...save for a hastily contrived script full of inconsistencies, discussions off the record and a legion of lies.

    Who was that white helmeted motorcycle policeman ?, arriving up on the 5th floor via elevator, on the same one Jack Dougherty took downstairs?

    Why did Mrs. Lied, err Reid, outright lie?

    Does lying have anything to do with the truth, NO
    The reliable evidence strongly indicates that SandraStyles and VictoriaAdams left their 4th floor office and went downstairs just after the last shot, and the JFK limousine sped away. So, two options. Either they reached the 1st floor just ahead of Officer Baker and Mr Truly, or they passed each other on the 2nd floor when Mr Baker and Mr Truly was at the lunchroom, encountering LH Oswald.

    The reliable evidence indicates strongly that BonnieWilliams, accompanied by HaroldNorman and JamesJarman, while on the 5th floor, and mostly hidden from view, "could not have seen an elephant" on the stairs. As Officer ML Baker "looked around", his white helmet was seen by the taller BW.

    Does anyone, including himself, know exactly where JackDougherty was at any particular time on 11/22/'63, especially when ML Baker called out for an elevator to be sent from an upper floor?

    Reliable evidence and testimony indicates that DCSD Deputy JW"Bill"Wiseman, as well as DCSD Deputy Jack W Faulkner, spent considerable time outside the TSBD, and in the RR yard area, before conducting their thorough floor by floor search, and the encountering the roof door that appears was actually latched from inside, instead of "locked".

    As GeraldineReid testified, the reliable evidence indicates that she had lunch in the 2nd floor lunchroom, and then went outside to view the JFK motorcade, and after the shots were fired returned to her 2nd floor office. There, she encountered LH Oswald, most likely at about 12:32:00pm, just after he had encountered DPD Officer ML Baker, accompanied by TSBD Building Superintendent RS Truly, at about 12:31:30 in the lunchroom.

    Larry
    StudentofAssassinationResearch


  4. Default Anatomy of An Unraveling Script

    More evidence of Truly lying here ---->

    http://www.history-matters.com/archi...26_CE_3035.pdf

    Note the 5th paragraph .

    There he goes again.

    How does he notice the activities of anyone, while having already bore left and heading up to the next stair landing, especially what may be unfolding on a floor he has already passed, now resting downward and behind him 30-35' towards an angled location/the lunchroom.

    Now, a well rehearsed script can overcome not having eyes in the back of his head,. Or an inability to see through a brick wall.

    The problem though with a hastily contrived script though is it isn’t the truth…no matter how many times Truly parrots it back…over and over again.…this particular regurgitation comes 10 months after the assassination (so indicative of retakes, more discussions off the record, essentially an outright lie, etc)

    Lest we forget…

    How many other human beings sharing the same time & space sequentially in an area where Truly & Baker say they were that afternoon corroborate their testimony?

    Nada, Zero, 0

    Wonder how many times Truly and/or 4triesBaker would score hole in one’s while golfing together?

    Funny how this duo can do great things as long as no one else is there to corroborate their claims.

    Unlike the plain simple truth, a contrived script is void of reality.

    Moving on…

    Points to ponder ----->

    *Who is/was the white helmeted motorcycle policeman who rode the West elevator up to the 5th floor?

    *Why did Sheriff Wiseman not encounter Truly & 4triesBaker on the roof?

    Or, at the very least, when they were coming back down the ladder from the roof?

    Or, when 4triesBaker, according to Truly’s testimony, searched the 7th floor, even moving a greater distance clear across the expansive floor to search a storage room?, extending even more time for an encounter IF they really were on the roof for “over 5 minutes”.

    Equally important, Why did Mrs. Reid outright lie about a phantom 2nd floor encounter with the wrongly accused?

    Would she also lie to “prove/embellish” all of Truly&4triesBaker’s hole-in-ones?, whenever they golfed as a tandem?

    Would she remember to take off her high-heels before she runs up the stairs, err, up a grassy slope of a particular hole to “witness” yet another one of their extraordinary swings?

    Would she remember to be wary of any photo footage capturing her to the contrary elsewhere while she “witnesses” the tandem sink yet another of their phantom hole in ones?

    Unlike the plain simple truth, a hastily contrived script is void of reality. But what else would we expect from a case built upon a magic-bullet...forgive the eye-roll.

    Reid. Judas. 4triesBaker…amazing what some people will do/say for thirty pieces of silver.

    Why was the roof Locked?
    "A Lie Believed By Everybody Is Not The Truth"--unknown



    .

  5. Default To be read carefully...

    [QUOTE=Ray Mitcham;120821][QUOTE=LR Trotter;120815]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Mitcham View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LR Trotter View Post

    As long as my intelligence actually matches my own assessment, I am comfortable with it, and I make no claim of abundance, although I do not recall ever misspelling the abbreviation for CentralStandardTime. But, for clarification, I place no value on your judgement for the quality, nor quantity, of anyone's intelligence. And, reliance on sub par assessments can be very problematic.
    Re your evaluation of your own intelligence, I believe it is for others to decide from what you write.

    And where did I ever say you had misspelled CentralStandardTime?
    As a matter of fact neither did I misspell it. It was a mistype as I pressed both the T and the Y at the same time.
    Where did I say that you said that I said that you said that I had misspelled CentralStandardTime?

    Why would my evaluation about anything be for others to decide for any reason?

    It is my continued wish that I can look back at anything I posted, and know that I made a strong attempt to express the factual truth as I understand it.

    In any event, I am confident that I have not expressed, and continue to, not express assertions that go beyond fact.

    Larry
    StudentofAssassinationResearch


  6. Default Admittedly...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Ford View Post
    More evidence of Truly lying here ---->

    http://www.history-matters.com/archi...26_CE_3035.pdf

    Note the 5th paragraph .

    There he goes again.

    How does he notice the activities of anyone, while having already bore left and heading up to the next stair landing, especially what may be unfolding on a floor he has already passed, now resting downward and behind him 30-35' towards an angled location/the lunchroom.

    Now, a well rehearsed script can overcome not having eyes in the back of his head,. Or an inability to see through a brick wall.

    The problem though with a hastily contrived script though is it isn’t the truth…no matter how many times Truly parrots it back…over and over again.…this particular regurgitation comes 10 months after the assassination (so indicative of retakes, more discussions off the record, essentially an outright lie, etc)

    Lest we forget…

    How many other human beings sharing the same time & space sequentially in an area where Truly & Baker say they were that afternoon corroborate their testimony?

    Nada, Zero, 0

    Wonder how many times Truly and/or 4triesBaker would score hole in one’s while golfing together?

    Funny how this duo can do great things as long as no one else is there to corroborate their claims.

    Unlike the plain simple truth, a contrived script is void of reality.

    Moving on…

    Points to ponder ----->

    *Who is/was the white helmeted motorcycle policeman who rode the West elevator up to the 5th floor?

    *Why did Sheriff Wiseman not encounter Truly & 4triesBaker on the roof?

    Or, at the very least, when they were coming back down the ladder from the roof?

    Or, when 4triesBaker, according to Truly’s testimony, searched the 7th floor, even moving a greater distance clear across the expansive floor to search a storage room?, extending even more time for an encounter IF they really were on the roof for “over 5 minutes”.

    Equally important, Why did Mrs. Reid outright lie about a phantom 2nd floor encounter with the wrongly accused?

    Would she also lie to “prove/embellish” all of Truly&4triesBaker’s hole-in-ones?, whenever they golfed as a tandem?

    Would she remember to take off her high-heels before she runs up the stairs, err, up a grassy slope of a particular hole to “witness” yet another one of their extraordinary swings?

    Would she remember to be wary of any photo footage capturing her to the contrary elsewhere while she “witnesses” the tandem sink yet another of their phantom hole in ones?

    Unlike the plain simple truth, a hastily contrived script is void of reality. But what else would we expect from a case built upon a magic-bullet...forgive the eye-roll.

    Reid. Judas. 4triesBaker…amazing what some people will do/say for thirty pieces of silver.

    Why was the roof Locked?
    I find it quite disappointing that any forum would allow continued assertions beyond fact, and continued, and repeatedly saying the same thing over and over, even though eyewitness and participant statements/testimony is available that contradicts most, if not all, repeated assertions.

    And now, is it being asserted that RS Truly was deaf? The linked handwritten note plainly states that Mr Truly noticed "talking" in/at the 2nd floor lunchroom, and only saw activities when he went there.

    And, the assertion that Ms Geraldine (Mrs RA) Reid is not credible, is backed up by an unproven assertion that she lied.

    Statements/testimony by DCSD Deputy JW"Bill"Wiseman, and DCSD Deputy JW Faulkner, gives reliable information that confirms their floor by floor TSBD search was several minutes after the TSBD floor search activities of DPD Officer ML Baker.

    BonnieRayWilliams testimony readily affirms why he, along with coworkers HaroldNorman and JamesJarman, was not encountered on or near the stairwell by DPD Officer ML Baker, although BRW did catch a glimpse of MLB's white motorcycle helmet as he looked around the floor.

    Admittedly, analysis far beyond my ability has provided me with an assisted understanding, to the degree that I have, of the JFK Assassination and related events.

    Larry
    StudentofAssassinationResearch


  7. Default

    [QUOTE=LR Trotter;120837]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Mitcham View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LR Trotter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Mitcham View Post

    Re your evaluation of your own intelligence, I believe it is for others to decide from what you write.

    And where did I ever say you had misspelled CentralStandardTime?
    As a matter of fact neither did I misspell it. It was a mistype as I pressed both the T and the Y at the same time.
    Where did I say that you said that I said that you said that I had misspelled CentralStandardTime?

    From your own post " although I do not recall ever misspelling the abbreviation for CentralStandardTime."

  8. Default For reading comprehension benefit...

    [QUOTE=Ray Mitcham;120849]
    Quote Originally Posted by LR Trotter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Mitcham View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LR Trotter View Post

    Where did I say that you said that I said that you said that I had misspelled CentralStandardTime?
    From your own post " although I do not recall ever misspelling the abbreviation for CentralStandardTime."

    For reading comprehension benefit, rephrased, "although I do not recall that I ever misspelled the abbreviation for CentralStandardTime", which as far as I know, is still CST.

    Larry
    StudentofAssassinationResearch


  9. Default The Case of the Tumbling Tandem

    Brief Recap:

    *No one, not a single soul, corroborates Truly’s tale about his presence on the backstairs with Baker.

    Even a rolled die has to land on 1 of 6 outcomes…yet the tall-tale about a phantom 2nd floor encounter tanks altogether…again, for emphasis, no one, not a single soul corroborates these two together anywhere along those backstairs (bottom to top, first floor all the way up to the 7th).

    *Moreover, the only other person-besides the tumbling-tandem, who places the wrongly accused on the 2nd floor outright LIED about it. Mrs. Reid lied to enhance their initial lie.

    *Baker’s same day affidavit runs contrary to the next day hastily contrived scripting.

    *Baker did not recognize the wrongly accused, who sat within a few feet of him in the same room, as the individual he previously encountered earlier that afternoon.

    *The identity of the white-helmeted motorcycle officer who arrived on the 5th floor via the West elevator remains unknown. Who was/is this man?

    *The roof was Locked when Deputy-Sheriff John Wiseman attempted to gain access. Why was it Locked IF two people just came down from the roof, where they stayed for, quote, “over 5 minutes”.

    *Truly was 56 years old on the afternoon he claims he ran up five flights of stairs, and climbed into a moldy, dusty and damped crawl space to ladder himself upwards to the roof, yet appears in photos less than 10 minutes later in a clean white shirt void of any residue of perspiration, ruffling, cobwebs, dirt/grime, etc. Even his hat is void of evidence of at least one drop onto the stairs as he frantically charged up them...or while in the small crawl space as he twist, turned, wrestled with the key to the Locked roof on his way up and/or down...

    *Holmes corroborates the wrongly accused telling his interrogators about a first-floor encounter on his way out the front entrance of the building, where he was stopped by a police officer, however, his Superintendent (Truly) vouched for him, quote, “whereupon he was allowed to walk out and down the steps”.

    *Furthermore, corroborating the above, there’s this revelation by James “Junior” Jarman ---->

    "Well, there was a billy love lady standing out there, he was on the

    steps, see... And, Oswald was coming out the door and he (Lovelady,
    S.M.) said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the
    building, billy love lady said that Mr. Trudy (sic) told the policeman
    that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on
    down the stairs."


    So, IF superintendent Truly IS on the backstairs charging up five flights of stairs avoiding perspiration, ruffling, etc. on his pristine white sheet, and the wrongly accused was long gone before Truly came down from a Locked roof, after spending “over 5 minutes” atop it, it seems Mrs. Reid and now Roy Truly are the president and vice-president of the “We Can Be In Two Places All At Once Club”…riight!!!!!

    A legion of lies, discussions off the record and a hastily contrived script that continues to unravel.
    Once again, No one, not a single soul, corroborates Truly’s tale about his presence on the backstairs with Baker ----->

    Even a rolled die has to land on 1 of 6 possible outcomes…yet the tall-tale about a phantom 2nd floor encounter tanks altogether…

    again, for emphasis, no one, not a single soul corroborates these two together anywhere along those backstairs (bottom to top, first floor all the way up to the 7th).

    Well, Mrs. Reid tried but Mrs. Reid Lied...
    "A Lie Believed By Everybody Is Not The Truth"--unknown



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