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Thread: Holmes' Testimony

  1. Default Holmes' Testimony

    This is an excerpt from a mega-essay I am working on, DEATH OF THE LUNCHROOM HOAX. This material got overlooked and is critical to the discussion at hand. I inserted it early on in this essay. I don't mean to jump the gun, I probably won't have this work completed before February. But I hope people at least think about this material, in relation to the fashionable hoax theory.

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    HOLMES' TESTIMONY

    Postal Inspector Harry Holmes attended the last of Oswald's interrogations on Sunday morning November 24th. He took notes and arranged these into a 4-page memorandum on December 17th. Holmes often referred to this memorandum when he testified before the Warren Commission that April 2nd.

    Holmes' memorandum and his testimony established, in Oswald's own words, that Oswald was upstairs in the building when the shooting took place. And shortly thereafter, as he went downstairs, he gave directions to a newsman looking for a telephone. That newsman's independent corroboration eliminates any possibility that Oswald was lying about his whereabouts.

    As the memorandum notes:
    When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunchtime came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he said, "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went downstairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman told him to step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.

    Inspector Thomas Kelley of the Secret Service also attended the Sunday morning interrogation and noted an additional incident in his report:[Oswald] said when he was standing in front of the Textbook Building and about to leave it, a young crew-cut man rushed up to him and said he was from the Secret Service, showed a book of identification, and asked him where the phone was. Oswald said he pointed toward the pay phone in the building and that he saw the man actually go to the phone before he left.

    [Photo & diagram of 1st-floor phone]

    The phone inside was on a pillar beside Roy Truly's office; Oswald had to have stood inside the front lobby at the plate glass partition leading into the warehouse to watch this young crew-cut man go to this phone. The Secret Service investigated this incident and determined that Oswald was mistaken- the crew-cut man was actually WFAA news director Pierce Allman. Agent Roger Warner interviewed him on January 29th:

    After the shots Allman had run from the corner of Houston & Elm down to the Newman family, who had thrown themselves to the ground near the grassy knoll. He soon "ran full speed into the Texas School Book Depository Building with the intention of locating a phone and calling his television station WFAA. Mr. Allman stated that after he had entered the front door of the building, he had emerged into a hallway and there he met a white male he could not further identify. He asked the white male for the location of a telephone... the person pointed out a phone to him which was located in an open area of the first floor...

    During the above interview it was noted that Mr. Allman carries his press pass in a leather case similar to cases carried by Federal agents and police officers."
    And at 12:34 Allman gave the world the first news broadcast from Dealey Plaza.

    Holmes' testimony expanded on his memorandum and corroborated the encounter with Allman:
    HOLMES: Then he said when all this commotion started, "I just went on downstairs." And he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. He said, "I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that I am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. Then I just went on out into the crowd to see what it was all about."
    BELIN: Did he say where he was at the time of the shooting?
    HOLMES: He just said he was still up in the building when the commotion- he kind of-

    ...
    BELIN: Did Oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crewcut in front of the building as he was about to leave it? Do you remember anything about that?
    HOLMES: No.
    BELIN: You don't remember anything about that. Did he say anything about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building?
    HOLMES: Policeman rushed- I take it back- I don't know whether he said a policeman or not- a man came rushing by and said, "Where's your telephone?"
    And the man showed some kind of credential and I don't know that he identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer, and said I am so and so, and shoved something at me which I didn't look at and said, "Where is the telephone?"
    And I said, "Right there" and just pointed in to the phone, and I went on out.

    ...And he didn't say what he was doing. There was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out and see what was going on. He didn't say whether he took the stairs down. He didn't say whether he took the elevator down. But he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved.
    He mentioned something about a coke. But a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "He is one of our men." And the policeman said, "Well, you step aside for a little bit."
    Then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "Where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said I am so and so, where is your telephone."
    And he said, "I didn't look at the credential. I don't know who he said he was, and I just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door."

    If Holmes' testimony in any way supported the PrayerMan theory it would be shouted from the rooftops. But it directly contradicts that idea, and flatly suggests that Oswald had just been at the Coke machine in the 2nd-floor lunchroom, sullying Murphy's theory that the lunchroom encounter was a hoax.

    And so Holmes gets ignored by the Murphyites, because they have no legitimate answer for him. All they can construe is that he was a government disinformation agent who lied about any detail pertinent to Murphy's theories. And even more convenient is that Allman was given a cover story to support Holmes' confabulations.

    This Holmes testimony alone damns PrayerMan and the lunchroom hoax as hack experiments in criminology. But please do not get the impression that this is a hit piece on Sean Murphy. This is a hit piece on you, the reader, who abandoned your better judgment and joined the mob that fell for his mullarkey.

  2. Default ...at least 60 seconds...

    Considering an indication that PierceAllman, before entering the TSBD after the shooting occurred, had gone to the area where eyewitnesses GayleNewman & WilliamNewman and their 2 sons were on the ground, it would appear to be at least 60 seconds after the MarrionBaker & RoyTruly 2nd floor lunchroom encounter with LeeOswald when MrAllman encountered MrOswald.

    Larry
    StudentofAssassinationResearch


  3. Default

    Good point, Larry. It appears that Oswald spent 20-30 additional seconds in the lunchroom thinking things over, after the encounter. Allman's breathless broadcast is on one of Helmar Reenberg's Texas School Book Depository youtubes, and was timestamped by ABC at 12:34- but he had a bit of trouble initially connecting with the broadcast mike at his studio. So when Oswald saw him at the warehouse phone, he wasn't yet broadcasting.

    I did a detailed study of Allman's timeline while with Lancer in 2010, and reached the conclusion that he reached the Depository almost 180 seconds after the head shots. Those results are the basics of the 1st section of my mega-essay Inside Job. I'm firmly convinced that he descended the entranceway steps at 12:34- the Commission tried to paint him as leaving at 12:33, thereby avoiding the interactions he had on the landing with Shelley and Welcome Barnett, which were witnessed by Lovelady.

    All three of them committed perjury. With Oswald dead they all shut up about it. The assassination investigation would have been fundamentally altered if any one of them had fessed up to this one pitiful detail.

  4. Default

    There's another major issue going on immediately post-encounter, and that is the descent of the west freight elevator. Oswald seems to have waited in the 2nd-floor lunchroom until that elevator arrived on the 1st floor and whoever was in it disembarked.

    And it's not out of the question that he used the hallway, not the central offices, to get to the front lobby stairs. That would explain why Geneva Hine, alone in the central office, missed seeing him. Her own post-shooting itinerary brought her to a couple stops in that hallway, knocking on publishers' doors (Lyons & Carnahan and Southwestern), but she returned to her office via the back door (adjacent to the vestibule). There's a likelihood she was actually knocking on Southwestern's door, which she did repeatedly, while the lunchroom encounter was going on.

    If Oswald heard someone using that back door he may have opted for the hallway route as less troublesome to get himself outside.

  5. Default ...agree...

    I agree Richard. And, a point sometimes lost, is that at the time of the assassination shooting, as well as some minutes after, LeeOswald was not yet a suspect in the shooting, at least by most of the employees at the TSBD Building, as well as the eyewitnesses, along with DPD Officer MarrionBaker. And, to me that reduces the attention value factor regarding his activities.

    Larry
    StudentofAssassinationResearch


  6. Default Clarity

    Given that Mr. Oswald's words are being spoken by another party to the actual events, let's be mindful of the accuracy--or lack thereof--of the messenger, Holmes. Before I get to the gist of my post, the following photograph clearly demonstrates Holmes' lack of clarity (please remember that word, clarity) ----->


    *Google Images

    Did you note the black trousers on Mr. Oswald?

    Now, let's see how Holmes describes them ---->

    Mr. BELIN. What was Oswald wearing at the time you saw him?
    Mr. HOLMES. He was bareheaded. He had a sport shirt on and slacks, pair of trousers.
    Mr. BELIN. What color trousers?
    Mr. HOLMES. Sort of a medium. On the light side I would say.
    Mr. BELIN. What color shirt?
    Mr. HOLMES. I don't recall. It was not a loud shirt. It was not outstanding.


    That wasn't the only area within his testimony where Holmes would be inaccurate, well, in fairness to him let's just say more than fully forthcoming...as we read further it's not Holmes' fault his testimony becomes a matter of conjecture and/or inadvertently making others to jump too quickly to conclusions, simply because he was less than forthcoming with all of the specifics.

    Let's examine this exchange for clarity's sake ---->

    Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
    305

    Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
    Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
    Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
    Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
    Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.


    This exchange eliminates an encounter on the 2nd floor, let alone in the lunchroom, because Holmes tells us Mr. Oswald told his interrogators precisely where he meet the policeman and his superintendent (Roy Truly). Not upstairs. Rather on the first floor, specifically, quote, The front entrance to the first floor.

    Now, that said, time and sequence is essential here. Yes, Mr. Oswald was at some point in the 2nd floor lunchroom that afternoon. He purchased a Coke there.

    Conjecture and a rush to interpretation of Holmes' remarks doesn't disqualify precisely where Mr. Oswald said he met the policeman and his superintendent, quote, The front entrance to the first floor

    In respect to coming downstairs to see what all the commotion is about...

    Mr. Oswald is simply sharing what anyone else would say upon observing a chaotic scene unfolding around us, we would simply leave the front entrance doors, where a policeman and our superintendent initially encounter us, and walk down the stairs to get a closer look to determine what is happening amid the maddening scene. As far as Mr. Oswald stating he was "up in the building" he simply meant under the canopy near the place where the policeman and his superintendent encountered him, quote, The front entrance to the first floor.


    Vestibule ----> "a small room just inside the outer door of a public building"

    In fairness to Holmes', by the time he was set to testify to the Warren Commission he already knew to be vague in his statements, especially about precisely where Mr. Oswald specifically stood when he came down the stairs to street level to see what all the commotion was about.

    There was no commotion at any time Mr. Oswald was actually on the 2nd floor nabbing a Coke (minutes before the president's limousine rounded the turn off Houston onto Elm Street), because IF there was, How did he get downstairs within the few slight seconds it took for him to be encountered by the policeman and his superintendent at the front entrance to the first floor?

    It wasn't by magic, and Mr. Scott did not receive an order from Captain Kirk to teleport him so swiftly...


    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Alan Ford; 12-12-2017 at 07:00 PM.
    http://jfkact.org/




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  7. Default ...the vestibule...

    I do believe that the vestibule being referenced is the vestibule on the 2nd floor at the lunchroom entrance. And, DPD Officer MarrionBaker, accompanied by TSBD BuildingSuperintendent RoyTruly, encountered TSBD Employee LeeOswald there at 12:31pm/12:32pm CST.

    Larry
    StudentofAssassinationResearch


  8. Default

    BELIN: Did he state it was on what floor?
    HOLMES: First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

    Alan Ford: This exchange eliminates an encounter on the 2nd floor, let alone in the lunchroom, because Holmes tells us Mr. Oswald told his interrogators precisely where he met the policeman and his superintendent (Roy Truly). Not upstairs. Rather on the first floor, specifically, quote The front entrance to the first floor.


    Oswald mistakenly referred to his foreman, Bill Shelley, as his superintendent. Or Holmes mistakenly interpreted Oswald's referral to meeting his foreman as instead meeting his superintendent. Please note that Holmes' memorandum calls this person "his boss".

    And we do have an independent source for placing Shelley on the front landing, which is Bookhout's solo report (Warren Report p. 619), where Oswald claimed he "stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY"

    The building superintendent, Roy Truly, was upstairs with Baker, nearing the Depository roof, at the time in question.

    **********************

    Alan Ford: Mr. Oswald is saying what anyone else would say upon observing a chaotic scene unfolding around us, we would simply leave the front entrance door, where our policeman and our superintendent initially encounter us, and walk down the stairs to get a closer look to determine what is happening amid the maddening scene. As far as Mr. Oswald stating he was "up in the building" he simply meant under the canopy near the place where the policeman and his superintendent encountered him, quote, The front entrance to the first floor.


    There isn't a single witness sighting that corroborates this dreck. Ford is imagining that Oswald, upon reacting to the commotion, went down the entranceway steps. But Holmes' testimony specifically states that "He said, I went down, and as I started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before I got to the front door."

    Oswald was upstairs in the building, then he went down, then he got to the front door.


    **************

    Do have a nice day, unless you've made other plans.

    Ethanol, a gasoline additive, is the active ingredient in beer, wine and hard liquor

  9. Default ...opinion...

    I suppose, in my opinion, that Mr Holmes may have confused the LeeOswald 2nd floor lunchroom encounter statement, with his self described LeeOswald statement about encountering a policeman on the 1st floor.

    And, there is also the relevance factor perception to consider.

    Larry
    StudentofAssassinationResearch


  10. Default Stairway or Lunchroom? Same Day or A Hastily Contrived Script ?

    The 2nd floor lunchroom encounter simply came to be the next day after a hastily contrived script needed to be fulfilled.

    All we have to do here is take an honest look at Officer Marrion Baker's same day account of the actual events, and the actual individual he encountered ---->

    AFFIDAVIT IN ANY FACT
    THE STATE OF TEXAS
    COUNTY OF DALLAS
    BEFORE ME, Mary Rattan, a Notary Public in and for said County, State of Texas, on this day personally appeared M. L. Baker, Patrolman Dallas Police Department who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says:


    Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots. I realized those shots were rifle shots and I began to try to figure out where they came from. I decided the shots had come from the building on the northwest corner of Elm and Houston. This building is used by the Board of Education for book storage. I jumped off my motor and ran inside the building. As I entered the door I saw several people standing around. I asked these people where the stairs were. A man stepped forward and stated he was the building manager and that he would show me where the stairs were. I followed the man to the rear of the building and he said, "Let's take the elevator." The elevator was hung several floors up so we used the stairs instead. As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket.


    s/ M. L. Baker

    SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN BEFORE ME THIS 22 DAY OF November A.D. 1963
    /s/ Mary Rattan
    Notary Public, Dallas County, Texas


    One simple question--given Baker's actual recording of his actual encounter (specifically where it really happened, the stairway, How did the encounter suddenly move away from the stairway all the way over across the floor...over into the lunchroom?


    Critical thinkers know why, because the phantom 2nd floor encounter did not happen until the next day...when a hastily contrived script created the lunchroom phantom encounter, an encounter that needed several tweaks to determine if the wrongly accused was sitting; standing; nursing a Coke; was empty handed void of a Coke; etc, etc, etc any lie will do until the hastily contrived script could be refined to even resemble truth (Roy Truly's "truth").

    There is a major difference between encountering someone walking away from you on the stairway as oppose to moving the encountering clear across the floor away from the stairway, and over into a lunchroom.

    Baker's same day affidavit rings true. Anything else is a hastily contrived script after the fact.
    Last edited by Alan Ford; 01-09-2018 at 07:00 PM.
    http://jfkact.org/




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